Politics, the Green Party.

[Frigidus]

Player, is there a presidential candidate you would rather see elected than either Obama or Romney?

That is an irrelevant question, because we have only 2 real choices.

It is rare that I happen to completely agree with Player, but this is the rare case.

Look, I know a lot of you don't particularly like the "Tea Party" (which technically is neither a political party nor a single organization) but you need to look at how they worked as opposed to what they worked for. Let's suppose, for the sake of argument, that you (the members of the Green Party), against all possible odds, gets the election for POTUS. Then what?

Congress makes the laws and the senate approves all major executive and judical positions. Neither one is in controll by the Green Party.

The way, and indeed the only way, to make effective change is one congressman and one senator at a time. Throwing a "Hail Mary" pass at the POTUS is not only the worst way to get change done in Washington, it no longer gets you any face time in the mainstream media, even though, technicaly speaking, they should be somewhat favorable towards your positions.

Not only that, but you have to go even lower. You need "Green" states, "Green" counties and "Green" towns. It's the local machines that push the regional machines that push the state machines that push the national machines. A national arty just doesn't have the manpower to cover the nation. Not going to happen.

And you know the best news? If the Green party adopted this idea they only need to plan for two years into the future. Isn't congress wonderful? That's how the Tea Party pulled off 2010. It's not rocket science.

I suppose the Green Party could try the "pander to the religious right" method like the Tea Party did, but I hope they don't.

The problem with your idea is that the Tea Party is no longer the Tea Party, because of what they did to get into Congress.

Besides, it isn't like the Republicans changed to incorporate the Tea Party, the Tea Party just was absorbed into the mainstream. Just look at the voting records of various Tea Party candidates.

[tzor]

First I am not surprised that most liberals can neither understand what the Tea Party was or what it is currently doing. They certainly didn't pander to the "religious right" because "social conservatism" tends to muddle "fiscal conservatism" messages.

Recently, a RINO died. The Tea Party hunted the RINO and forced him off of the Republican Reservation when he realized that after assued nominations into his own party, he was being effectlively challenged.

Several critical primaries too place this year between Tea Party endorsed candidates and the Establishment endorsed candidates, and the later generally tended to loose.

And don't think *They* aren't doing the same thing. The Moderate Democrat is dead. Leiberman, who had to run as an independent is retiring.

So yes it is possible to push a party in your direction. Still you don't have to. A strong third party can easily create a 15%-20% block in the house and would need to be consulted in order to get anyhting done by the semi-majority party at the time. Such a goal if far easier than getting two men in executive office at the Federal level.

[maxfaraday]

Another endless, pointless, sterile debate that derailed into a thread about US politics.
Ecologists are just a bunch hippies, now mods will you please lock this thread.

[spurgistan]

The assumption inherent in the anti-Green Party argument is that if I was not going to vote third party that I would vote for one of the two shades of the current duopoly, and it just isn't true. Whoever I do vote for, it sure as shit isn't going to be Romney or Black Romney.

I said before, if you truly don't care whether Romney wins or Obama does..then go for it. I care.

Or if you are one of the hundreds of millions of voters who live in states where the outcome isn't even remotely contested.

[Woodruff]

First I am not surprised that most liberals can neither understand what the Tea Party was or what it is currently doing. They certainly didn't pander to the "religious right" because "social conservatism" tends to muddle "fiscal conservatism" messages.

Recently, a RINO died. The Tea Party hunted the RINO and forced him off of the Republican Reservation when he realized that after assued nominations into his own party, he was being effectlively challenged.

Several critical primaries too place this year between Tea Party endorsed candidates and the Establishment endorsed candidates, and the later generally tended to loose.

Yet by their own statements, there's not a lot of difference. The "Tea Party" candidates are generally the same bigoted, marriage-limiting, woman-hating, social conservatives that mainstream Republicans generally are. The Tea Party was subsumed, and you guys seem unwilling to even consider it, while the evidence is right in front of you.

And don't think *They* aren't doing the same thing. The Moderate Democrat is dead. Leiberman, who had to run as an independent is retiring.

What's funny is that you seem to believe Obama is left-wing. Good Lord, he's almost a Republican. Then again, Ronald Reagan would probably be considered a Democrat today, if it were up to most conservatives.

[Frigidus]

And don't think *They* aren't doing the same thing. The Moderate Democrat is dead. Leiberman, who had to run as an independent is retiring.

What's funny is that you seem to believe Obama is left-wing. Good Lord, he's almost a Republican. Then again, Ronald Reagan would probably be considered a Democrat today, if it were up to most conservatives.

I wish that the ridiculous 'Obama's a socialist' hand wringing had any merit to it, then I might feel somewhat politically represented. We need to work on reanimating FDR.

[BigBallinStalin]

And don't think *They* aren't doing the same thing. The Moderate Democrat is dead. Leiberman, who had to run as an independent is retiring.

What's funny is that you seem to believe Obama is left-wing. Good Lord, he's almost a Republican. Then again, Ronald Reagan would probably be considered a Democrat today, if it were up to most conservatives.

I wish that the ridiculous 'Obama's a socialist' hand wringing had any merit to it, then I might feel somewhat politically represented. We need to work on reanimating FDR.

I never knew you liked Bush 2 foreign policy with a heavy helping of Soviet central planning.

[Frigidus]

And don't think *They* aren't doing the same thing. The Moderate Democrat is dead. Leiberman, who had to run as an independent is retiring.

What's funny is that you seem to believe Obama is left-wing. Good Lord, he's almost a Republican. Then again, Ronald Reagan would probably be considered a Democrat today, if it were up to most conservatives.

I wish that the ridiculous 'Obama's a socialist' hand wringing had any merit to it, then I might feel somewhat politically represented. We need to work on reanimating FDR.

I never knew you liked Bush 2 foreign policy with a heavy helping of Soviet central planning.

Er...not sure what you mean. You think that there are aspects of Bush that are socialist? I mean, sure, he was "big government" in a lot of ways, but that doesn't make him a socialist.

Also, a bit less Soviet a little bit more Western European as far as what I'd be interested in seeing.

[tzor]

Yet by their own statements, there's not a lot of difference. The "Tea Party" candidates are generally the same bigoted, marriage-limiting, woman-hating, social conservatives that mainstream Republicans generally are. The Tea Party was subsumed, and you guys seem unwilling to even consider it, while the evidence is right in front of you.

First of all, I attended a recent meeting of the Suffolk County 912 Club. Second, I know personally the founder of the New York Liberty Report, a major Tea Party blog and news collector in New York.

I don't drink the koolaid and I don't listen to the liberal hacks in the mainstream media who have been trying to downplay the movement by every possible slur possible.

I'm not even sure you can get an absolute consensus on abortion. A significant number are strongly libertarian. The only places where social conservatism might be predominant are in those places where almost everyone is a social conservatie.

[Frigidus]

Yet by their own statements, there's not a lot of difference. The "Tea Party" candidates are generally the same bigoted, marriage-limiting, woman-hating, social conservatives that mainstream Republicans generally are. The Tea Party was subsumed, and you guys seem unwilling to even consider it, while the evidence is right in front of you.

First of all, I attended a recent meeting of the Suffolk County 912 Club. Second, I know personally the founder of the New York Liberty Report, a major Tea Party blog and news collector in New York.

I don't drink the koolaid and I don't listen to the liberal hacks in the mainstream media who have been trying to downplay the movement by every possible slur possible.

I'm not even sure you can get an absolute consensus on abortion. A significant number are strongly libertarian. The only places where social conservatism might be predominant are in those places where almost everyone is a social conservatie.

What about tea party candidates? Would you say that they are at all divided on those issues? In what ways have these candidates distinguished themselves from the rest of the Republicans?

[tzor]

What's funny is that you seem to believe Obama is left-wing. Good Lord, he's almost a Republican. Then again, Ronald Reagan would probably be considered a Democrat today, if it were up to most conservatives.

I don't use the term "left-wing" as that is also like "moderate repuiblican" a very rare breed. Obama is a progressive utopian. Saying he is "almost a Republican" is like saying that Hydrogen Peroxide is almost Hydrogen Hydroxide. It's somewhat compounded by the fact that he is a Chicago Politician who has been corrupted by special interests.

The liberal myth that Reagan would be considered a Democrat today is nonsense on its face value. Remember, the Democratic party left him. He would think that was even more true today. That said, he did do things that conservatives might not be happy about. He even suggested that perhaps in hindsight they weren't the best things he did, later in life.

[tzor]

What about tea party candidates? Would you say that they are at all divided on those issues? In what ways have these candidates distinguished themselves from the rest of the Republicans?

I only know about the ones from New York. Consider abortion. The basic notion is to overturn Roe v Wade and bring the matter back to the states. Anyone in New York who says this knows damn full well that NY legalized abortion one year before Roe v Wade. The Democrats try to enshrine it in the state constitution but keep falling short. We had a good debate between Gillibrand and Long over the issue and Long insisted that repealing of Roe v Wade would not in any shape make abortion illegal in NY. She opposed the decision on bad constitutional grounds.

Tea party candidates don't talk about social issues because they believe the problem is the economy. They talk about jobs.

[HapSmo19]

Also, a bit less Soviet a little bit more Western European as far as what I'd be interested in seeing.

I'd be interested in seeing you realize that western Europe is only about eight hours away by plane. Just because you were born here doesn't necessarily mean this shit's for you.
Why not follow your heart and GTFO?
Not truly a fan of diverse cultures and ideas?

[GreecePwns]

Why not ... GTFO?
Not truly a fan of diverse cultures and ideas?

[Woodruff]

Tea party candidates don't talk about social issues because they believe the problem is the economy. They talk about jobs.

Interestingly, a quick issue search seems to disagree with you:

http://aderholt.house.gov/family-values1/
http://www.franks.house.gov/pages/sanctity-of-life
http://paul.senate.gov/?p=issue&id=3
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TjMnFnrS2t4
http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2012/04/2 ... 53583.html
http://nymag.com/daily/intel/2012/10/ak ... gnant.html
http://www.demint.senate.gov/public/ind ... milyValues
http://robbishop.house.gov/issues/issue/?IssueID=3627
http://moran.senate.gov/public/index.cfm/family-values
http://www.thedailydolt.com/2012/10/19/ ... -abortion/
http://www.thedailydolt.com/2012/10/05/ ... todd-akin/
http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2010/09/2 ... __Adultery

[Frigidus]

Also, a bit less Soviet a little bit more Western European as far as what I'd be interested in seeing.

I'd be interested in seeing you realize that western Europe is only about eight hours away by plane. Just because you were born here doesn't necessarily mean this shit's for you.
Why not follow your heart and GTFO?
Not truly a fan of diverse cultures and ideas?

My family is here. My friends are here. Everything I am familiar with is here. If I could move all that over there I would.

[Woodruff]

Also, a bit less Soviet a little bit more Western European as far as what I'd be interested in seeing.

I'd be interested in seeing you realize that western Europe is only about eight hours away by plane. Just because you were born here doesn't necessarily mean this shit's for you.
Why not follow your heart and GTFO?
Not truly a fan of diverse cultures and ideas?

Yes...there's no room for diversity when the discussion is about diversity. Right?

[HapSmo19]

Also, a bit less Soviet a little bit more Western European as far as what I'd be interested in seeing.

I'd be interested in seeing you realize that western Europe is only about eight hours away by plane. Just because you were born here doesn't necessarily mean this shit's for you.
Why not follow your heart and GTFO?
Not truly a fan of diverse cultures and ideas?

My family is here. My friends are here. Everything I am familiar with is here. If I could move all that over there I would.

So, rather than move eight hours away(an insurmountable task) and live your socialist dream, the logical alternative would be to tear down the US system and rebuild it in the form of western europe. Makes sense.
Do your family and friends share your views cuz maybe getting-TFO is the best option for all of you.

As far as me being intolerant of different cultures and ideas goes, planet earth already has a western Europe and a few dozen variations to either side of the spectrum for like-minded individuals (with friends and families) to choose from.

[Frigidus]

Also, a bit less Soviet a little bit more Western European as far as what I'd be interested in seeing.

I'd be interested in seeing you realize that western Europe is only about eight hours away by plane. Just because you were born here doesn't necessarily mean this shit's for you.
Why not follow your heart and GTFO?
Not truly a fan of diverse cultures and ideas?

My family is here. My friends are here. Everything I am familiar with is here. If I could move all that over there I would.

So, rather than move eight hours away(an insurmountable task) and live your socialist dream, the logical alternative would be to tear down the US system and rebuild it in the form of western europe. Makes sense.
Do your family and friends share your views cuz maybe getting-TFO is the best option for all of you.

As far as me being intolerant of different cultures and ideas goes, planet earth already has a western Europe and a few dozen variations to either side of the spectrum for like-minded individuals (with friends and families) to choose from.

Oh, well hang on and let me just abandon my entire life because the place I was born has to be a serfdom to satisfy some nutter economic utopian zealots. Good stuff. Hey, I have an idea, how about you move to one of the third world countries that you would have us emulate?

[chang50]

Didn't read the posts and won't.
"Greens" are just a bunch of stupid self-righteous hypocrites, (aka hippies) and I hate them.
Next time some hippie asshole tries to feed me his pc bullshit, if there's no witness nearby, I kill him.

Translation;I'm too thick to read and understand anything more nuanced than monosyllabic grunts.I also think that people are impressed by or frightened of internet tough guys threatening violence.

[BigBallinStalin]

And don't think *They* aren't doing the same thing. The Moderate Democrat is dead. Leiberman, who had to run as an independent is retiring.

What's funny is that you seem to believe Obama is left-wing. Good Lord, he's almost a Republican. Then again, Ronald Reagan would probably be considered a Democrat today, if it were up to most conservatives.

I wish that the ridiculous 'Obama's a socialist' hand wringing had any merit to it, then I might feel somewhat politically represented. We need to work on reanimating FDR.

I never knew you liked Bush 2 foreign policy with a heavy helping of Soviet central planning.

Er...not sure what you mean. You think that there are aspects of Bush that are socialist? I mean, sure, he was "big government" in a lot of ways, but that doesn't make him a socialist.

Also, a bit less Soviet a little bit more Western European as far as what I'd be interested in seeing.

FDR and Bush were very warlike people. Both antagonized others to pick a fight with them.

FDR wanted to cartelize the US manufacturing industry, and many traditional services provided by the private sector, we wanted under the scope of government (which exemplifies what socialism actually is--you know, state ownership over the means of production). And even if outright ownership was not present, significant control can basically become de facto ownership--which you know was part-and-parcel of the New Deal and all those policies within that political climate.

You seem to have this fantasy view of FDR.

[spurgistan]

No way, a fantasy view of a politician who created most of the programs Democrats are defending today? Color me surprised.

But yeah, the person we should have our political Drs. Frankenstein working on is Upton Sinclair.

[BigBallinStalin]

No way, a fantasy view of a politician who created most of the programs Democrats are defending today? Color me surprised.

But yeah, the person we should have our political Drs. Frankenstein working on is Upton Sinclair.

ONWARD! TO UTOPIA!!!

[saxitoxin]

U.S.' only Presidential Debate Scheduled for Tomorrow

The U.S.' only presidential debate will be held tomorrow at the Hilton Chicago, moderated by Larry King. The debate has a participation standard that allows any candidate who is on the ballot in at least 40 states to appear. Six candidates are qualified: Barack Obama (a former paralegal), Mitt Romney (ex Olympics emcee), Gary Johnson (ex Governor of New Mexico), Dr. Jill Stein, Rocky Anderson (ex Mayor of Salt Lake City) and Virgil Goode (former US Congressman). All except Obama and Romney have accepted the invitation.

The debate is sponsored by the following media outlets: The Nation, American Conservative, Ballot Access News, drudgereport.com, the Humboldt Sentinel and Pacifica Radio's KCSB-FM (Santa Barbara).

• The Republican and Democrat parties have demanded all broadcast media in the U.S. boycott the event and they have all complied. So - instead - it will be broadcast live by Voice of Russia and al-Jazeera and beamed into the U.S. Americans can huddle in dark closets, clutching shortwave radios, to hear the democratic broadcasts transmitted into their country from the free world; perhaps each household should post a lookout to watch for police vans driving by with radio wave detectors, though. Alternatively, it will be streamed live here:
  
  http://freeandequal.org/live/?utm_sourc ... dium=email
  
  Afterwards, viewers can vote online - using Instant Run-Off Voting - for the two candidates they feel performed best. Those two candidates will appear in a final debate in Washington on October 30, assuming a drone strike isn't called in on it.

[thegreekdog]

U.S.' only Presidential Debate Scheduled for Tomorrow

The U.S.' only presidential debate will be held tomorrow at the Hilton Chicago, moderated by Larry King. The debate has a participation standard that allows any candidate who is on the ballot in at least 40 states to appear. Six candidates are qualified: former paralegal Barack Obama, former Olympics emcee Mitt Romney, former New Mexico governor Gary Johnson, noted physician Jill Stein, former Salt Lake City Mayor Rocky Anderson and former U.S. congressman Virgil Goode. All except Obama and Romney have accepted the invitation.

The debate is sponsored by the following media outlets: The Nation, American Conservative, Ballot Access News, drudgereport.com, the Humboldt Sentinel and Pacifica Radio's KCSB-FM (Santa Barbara).

• The Republican and Democrat parties have demanded all broadcast media in the U.S. boycott the event and they have all complied. So - instead - it will be broadcast live by Voice of Russia and al-Jazeera and beamed into the U.S. Americans can huddle in dark closets, clutching shortwave radios, to hear the democratic broadcasts transmitted into their country from the free world; perhaps each household should post a lookout to watch for police vans driving by with radio wave detectors, though. Alternatively, it will be streamed live here:
  
  http://freeandequal.org/live/?utm_sourc ... dium=email
  
  Afterwards, viewers can vote online - using Instant Run-Off Voting - for the two candidates they feel performed best. Those two candidates will appear in a final debate in Washington on October 30.

The comments below the website make me feel very happy: like the people berating the conservative mainstream Republican poster who referred to Obama as a socialist... by referring to his presidency as crony capitalism. It's like they read my mind.