The urge to meddle

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macbone
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Re: The urge to meddle

Post by macbone »

macbone wrote:Hong Kong makes for a fascinating study. Before I moved here, I assumed it had existed for hundreds of years, on par with other great cities like Shanghai and Beijing. I didn't realize that one hundred and fifty years ago, this place was a small collection of fishing villages. It's been amazing what's been accomplished in such a short amount of time. It hasn't always been smooth, given the riots over the decades, but the infrastructure here is world-class, and despite the people's distrust in their elected leaders, they are listened to in many matters. HKers don't have civil rights at the level of many northern European countries, but this whole "One Country, Two Systems" structure is fascinating.

Mrswdk, I believe that we can demonstrably prove the superiority of one system of government over others. Aristotle Plato, for instance, argued that a dictatorship ruled by an enlightened philospher-king was the highest form of government. The purpose of logic is to examine the arguments on both sides of an issue and come to a conclusion based on what has been explored. I believe that we can honestly examine this issue if we put aside preconceived notions, but doing so is very hard to do (and may not be in our interests at times, such as if I were monetarily incentivized to support my own government's policies).

Still, we can make an effort to do so. =) You're welcome to start another thread for that purpose if you'd like. "What is the best form of government?" would make for a really interesting discussion, particularly if us Beliebervillers can come up with a better system than what's currently available.
mrswdk wrote:What makes you think 'levels of cooperation' and 'levels of democracy' have a causal relation?
I didn't make that claim. Note the difference between cause and correlation. Democratic countries have a correlation with stability, freedom of expression, and creativity. Nondemocratic countries have a correlation with repression of creativity and oppression of human rights.
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macbone
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Re: The urge to meddle

Post by macbone »

Sorry, Plato, not Aristotle.

My point still stands. You've avoided my question and have failed to explain the correlation between democracy and creativity/stability/innovation.

And I understand that you disagree about my point on whether we can logically determine the best form of government, but why can we not logically? Is it because it is too subjective? Then let's deal only in what we can objectively discuss? Is it too complex? There is no issue too complex that logic cannot address.

I'm sorry, I'm far too pedantic. =( Somebody distract me with a Carl Barks reference.
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Re: The urge to meddle

Post by mrswdk »

macbone wrote:Sorry, Plato, not Aristotle.

My point still stands. You've avoided my question and have failed to explain the correlation between democracy and creativity/stability/innovation.
I might as well explain the correlation between being from a democratic country and being white.

Or, by extension, the correlation between being an innovate country and being full of white people.

By which I mean democracy is not really relevant in a discussion about national capacity for innovation and creativity.
And I understand that you disagree about my point on whether we can logically determine the best form of government, but why can we not logically? Is it because it is too subjective? Then let's deal only in what we can objectively discuss? Is it too complex? There is no issue too complex that logic cannot address.
I disagree that there is one form of government that is universally the best. I do, however, believe that we can identify the form of government that is best for one particular country at one particular point in its history (assuming we have access to all the right information).
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Re: The urge to meddle

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mrswdk wrote: Civil liberties in China are none of America's (or anyone else's) concern, and in any case the US doesn't have any kind of moral high horse to speak of when it comes to human rights.
Not too long ago, this would have condoned letting 11 million innocent people die. After all, the US was putting some Japanese folks into internment camps, so they clearly had no right to stop a genocide!
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Re: The urge to meddle

Post by khazalid »

I'VE GOT THE URGE
(YOU KNAVE, YOU CAD, YOU SAUCY DEVIL!)
I'VE GOT THE URGE,
THE URGE TO MEDDLE
WITH YOOOOOU
had i been wise, i would have seen that her simplicity cost her a fortune
mrswdk
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Re: The urge to meddle

Post by mrswdk »

Metsfanmax wrote:
mrswdk wrote: Civil liberties in China are none of America's (or anyone else's) concern, and in any case the US doesn't have any kind of moral high horse to speak of when it comes to human rights.
Not too long ago, this would have condoned letting 11 million innocent people die. After all, the US was putting some Japanese folks into internment camps, so they clearly had no right to stop a genocide!
Which genocide did the US prevent? Or by 'people' did you mean 'pigs' again?
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Re: The urge to meddle

Post by nietzsche »

China is less democratic than Mexico.

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Re: The urge to meddle

Post by Lootifer »

Boo I thought this thread was going to be about Prince Charles!

Wheres Saxi when you need him...
I go to the gym to justify my mockery of fat people.
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Re: The urge to meddle

Post by General_Tao »

Nietzsche, don't you think that you live in a narco-dictatorship? You are blinded by your patriotism. Your country is run by drug cartels that have killed more than 76,000 citizens in the last decade (and up to twice that much), including countless journalists and activists. If China had the same problem, they would have had nearly a million people killed off by ruling bandits!

http://america.aljazeera.com/opinions/2 ... hobia.html
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Re: The urge to meddle

Post by nietzsche »

General_Tao wrote:Nietzsche, don't you think that you live in a narco-dictatorship? You are blinded by your patriotism. Your country is run by drug cartels that have killed more than 76,000 citizens in the last decade (and up to twice that much), including countless journalists and activists. If China had the same problem, they would have had nearly a million people killed off by ruling bandits!

http://america.aljazeera.com/opinions/2 ... hobia.html

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Re: The urge to meddle

Post by DoomYoshi »

mrswdk wrote:
Reform is a gradual process
Therefore Great Leap Forward is an oxymoron?
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Re: The urge to meddle

Post by DoomYoshi »

Here is another reason we care:
http://www.amazon.ca/Thieves-State-Corr ... 0393239462

This book is the new manifesto of reality.



It has long been known that the only difference between government and mafia is size. Right now there is a gang turf war going on, and Ukraine, Syria, Iraq and Nigeria are some of the victims. All these things started with internal policies and mindsets. The only true mentality is that in which corruption doesn't send you to jail... it gets you executed on the spot, with your sac split open and your children forced to watch as ants eat your brain. If you have ever paid a bribe, you get 400 punches in the solarplexus. Corruption can't be fully cleared without freedom of press and freedom of information.
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mrswdk
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Re: The urge to meddle

Post by mrswdk »

DoomYoshi wrote:
mrswdk wrote:
Reform is a gradual process
Therefore Great Leap Forward is an oxymoron?
I don't know about that, but Great Leap Brewing make some fantastic burgers!

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Re: The urge to meddle

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"All your burgers are belong to us!"
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Re: The urge to meddle

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Apparently mrswdk is against civil liberties, freedom of expression, freedom of association and freedom in general.

Why are you such a mouth piece for Beijing?
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Re: The urge to meddle

Post by mrswdk »

notyou2 wrote:Apparently mrswdk is against civil liberties, freedom of expression, freedom of association and freedom in general.

Why are you such a mouth piece for Beijing?
I am all for freedom, as I have said before. If I compare China and the UK (the two countries I know best) there are many ways in which I am more free in China than I was in the UK. I am free to walk down a dark, quiet street or alley late at night without the fear of becoming a victim of crime. I am free from having a vast amount of rules and regulations governing every aspect of my daily life*. You talk about freedom of association - I'm free to travel around my city without ever finding that pavements, roads or entire districts have been closed down by protestors.

Different people value different kinds of freedoms, and it's kinda ignorant to accuse me of being a mouthpiece for the Chinese government just because I say that. No one I know in Beijing has any interest in talking about politics, or democracy, or anything like that. No one gives a shit. No one cares that they can't go protest in Tiananmen Square or denounce the Party on the internet, because no one wants to. Maybe in Canada people's number one priority is being able to kick out against the authorities, but in China people have different interests. Why that concerns you (or anyone else abroad) is beyond me.

*examples: a friend of mine was stuck in a traffic jam in the UK. While sat in her car in completely stationary traffic she got her phone out to call her office and let them know she'd be late, at which point a police officer appeared and told her to put her phone away. British people I have relayed that story to seem to think that is a completely normal thing to have happened.
Last edited by mrswdk on Tue May 19, 2015 9:10 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: The urge to meddle

Post by nietzsche »

mrswdk wrote:
notyou2 wrote:Apparently mrswdk is against civil liberties, freedom of expression, freedom of association and freedom in general.

Why are you such a mouth piece for Beijing?
I am all for freedom, as I have said before. If I compare China and the UK (the two countries I know best) there are many ways in which I am more free in China than I was in the UK. I am free to walk down a dark, quiet street or alley late at night without the fear of becoming a victim of crime. I am free from having a vast amount of rules and regulations governing every aspect of my daily life. You talk about freedom of association - I'm free to travel around my city without ever finding that pavements, roads or entire districts have been closed down by protestors.

Different people value different kinds of freedoms, and it's kinda ignorant to accuse me of being a mouthpiece for the Chinese government just because I say that. No one I know in Beijing has any interest in talking about politics, or democracy, or anything like that. No one gives a shit. No one cares that they can't go protest in Tiananmen Square or denounce the Party on the internet, because no one wants to. Maybe in Canada people's number one priority is being able to kick out against the authorities, but in China people have different interests. Why that concerns you (or anyone else abroad) is beyond me.
+50 cents.
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Re: The urge to meddle

Post by mrswdk »

Shut up and make me an enchilada.
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Re: The urge to meddle

Post by AndyDufresne »

mrswdk wrote:Shut up and make me an enchilada.
+25 cents, since you talking with Nietzsche, who resides in Mexico and not the USA.


--Andy
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Re: The urge to meddle

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mrswdk wrote:I am free from having a vast amount of rules and regulations governing every aspect of my daily life*.
The rules can be ridiculous. For example, in Canada, it's illegal to read. On the other side of the coin, there was a video I posted not too long ago about a suicide bomb attack at a police station in Kabul. Since a large part of what I do professionally is traffic control, I was interested in the traffic control aspect of the police crime scene (which included most of the street). It was pure chaos. Here, in Canada, lane and road closures are done in a predictable, best-practices manner. It's true that legislators suck at legislation, but when they defer things to working committees, sometimes the working committee gets a few things right.

As for your friend with the cell phone in the car. They are not allowed, unless you are parked (not in a live lane). If she can't understand this simple fucking concept leave the god-damned, Putin's-cock-sucking phone at home. Her life would be immensely better without a cell phone and without telecommunications of any sort.
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Re: The urge to meddle

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Another reason to meddle:
We are at war http://www.wsj.com/articles/u-s-charges ... 1432046527
Six Chinese citizens, including three professors who trained together at the University of Southern California, stole sensitive wireless technology from U.S. companies and spirited it back to China, the Justice Department charged.

The six individuals allegedly swiped trade secrets from U.S. companies Avago Technologies and Skyworks Solutions Inc. relating to how to filter out unwanted signals in wireless devices, according to an indictment unsealed late Monday.

They then set up a joint venture with China’s state-controlled Tianjin University to produce and sell equipment using the technology, according to the indictment, and won contracts from both businesses and “military entities.”

The U.S. companies supply components for Apple’s iPhone, among other devices. Authorities said the case demonstrates persistent efforts to steal American technology developed in places like Silicon Valley, where Avago’s U.S. operations are based.

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The charges come amid a heightened Justice Department focus on suspected economic espionage, especially by the Chinese. In May of last year, the department brought charges against five Chinese military employees who allegedly hacked into U.S. companies to steal trade secrets. In March of last year, the U.S. won convictions of two engineers who allegedly stole secrets to manufacturing a white pigment from DuPont Co. and sold them to a Chinese firm.

Last week, network security firm FireEye Inc. said it determined through forensic analysis that Chinese hackers broke into systems at Pennsylvania State University’s engineering college and could have accessed research on U.S. military technology.

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All three of the professors charged in the case received electrical-engineering degrees from the University of Southern California in 2006. After graduation, they split up, with Pang Wei going to work for Avago in Fort Collins, Colo.; Zhang Hao to Skyworks in Woburn, Mass.; and Zhang Huisui to Micrel Semiconductor in San Jose, Calif.

Soon they began emailing about plans to create a business that would sell thin-film bulk acoustic resonator technology in China, but ran into a glitch, according to the indictment.

Intellectual property “is our biggest problem,” Zhang Huisui wrote in an email to the other two, the indictment alleges.

“My work is to make every possible effort to find out about the process’s every possible detail and copy directly to China,” Mr. Pang, the Avago employee, wrote the group a month later, the indictment says.

In another email, Mr. Pang mentioned that their company would have an advantage over rivals because it wouldn’t need to pay for research and development, according to the indictment. Mr. Pang is said to have joked that the company should be called Clifbaw—short for China lift bulk acoustic wave, referring to the technology they are accused of stealing. According to the indictment, Avago had spent 20 years and $50 million to develop its technology.

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In the ensuing months, the professors and their alleged co-conspirators worked to set up companies and file patents in the U.S. and China that the Justice Department says were based on stolen technology. To hide their tracks and avoid tipping off their former employers, the scientists responsible for the theft didn’t file the patents in their own names, according to the indictment.

Avago learned about the thefts from the patent applications in the fall of 2011, according to the indictment, which states that on a trip to China later that year, Mr. Pang’s old boss, Rich Ruby, dropped by his former colleague’s new lab, where he recognized technology stolen from Avago and confronted Mr. Pang about “stealing and using Avago trade secrets.”
Intellectual property rights sure are a killer.
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Re: The urge to meddle

Post by notyou2 »

OK mrswdk, Canadians are not in favour of their government invading another country and killing it's citizens. Canadians would be screaming at the top of their lungs if Canada invaded Tibet.
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Re: The urge to meddle

Post by mrswdk »

notyou2 wrote:OK mrswdk, Canadians are not in favour of their government invading another country and killing it's citizens. Canadians would be screaming at the top of their lungs if Canada invaded Tibet.
Cool story bro.
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Re: The urge to meddle

Post by muy_thaiguy »

mrswdk. Has China been reading your threads here?
http://finance.yahoo.com/news/chinese-a ... 17928.html
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Re: The urge to meddle

Post by mrswdk »

I don't think I've made any comments on here about President Xi's little ideological battle gainst 'Western values'.

The point your Yahoo article makes about the West seeking to undermine the USSR's leaders via dissemination of an opposing ideology is a valid one. Maybe the West is not seeking to pull the rug out form under the Chinese government in the way that they wanted to do to the Soviet regime, but voices that challenge the legitimacy of the entire system do, naturally, threaten the existence of that system if they become widespread.

Ideology is useless. Lofty ideals are not pragmatic at all. That's why I agree that allowing 'boo hoo representative democracy' whining to gain traction would not benefit China at all (much as I also think the Party's constant blathering about socialism is dumb and counter-productive).

The main question that the hippies consistently fail to answer is: why would aping Western models of democracy benefit today's China? What are the gains and losses that would occur if such a series of reforms was to take place? How would US-style democracy, UK-style democracy or German-style democracy be conducive to China's continued growth and development?
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