Libertarianism is stupid.

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Re: Libertarianism is stupid.

Post by Snorri1234 »

captain.crazy wrote: The first thing that would help would be to convince people to be healthier. If you get emphysema after smoking for 40 years, sorry, self inflicted. You get to die. If you weigh 600 pounds and you have a heart attack while walking to the bathroom, and you haven't even tried to go to a gym and improve your diet, sorry... you get a DNR.
Does this go for peope with insurance too? Because if so, it's not only a completely horrible solution, but also very much non-capitalist.
The second thing would be to stop frivolous law suits. This can only be achieved, I think, if proper waivers were put into place for the cutting edge technologies in medicine. If a Doctor makes a mistake, and it causes you some harm, when most of the time, the alternative would have been to forgo treatment at all... you will have to live with the consequences. Judges need to be more protective of the doctors imo.
This just simply doesn't make sense. Not that I don't agree with less lawsuits, but are you saying that a doctor shouldn't be held accountable for making a mistake? So when a doctor severes a nerve trying to cut a tumour out, you should just accept that you're paralyzed and stop complaining?
Finally, get all of these pharmaceuticals our of here. They are poisoning our population. The side effects are more often worse than the disease that they "remedy" and you get really odd and unintended consequences when you start mixing these drugs together.
Wow, you are surely very knowledgable about medicine.
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Re: Libertarianism is stupid.

Post by thegreekdog »

Snorri1234 wrote:I get angry when people know nothing about a topic but instead of just listening to what others have to say they spout some ignorant bullshit. To assume I get my information from "Popular movies" (and I already know which movie you are referring to) is pretty condenscending.

Also, I get angry because this is such a simple issue and a little reading up on it makes the issue completely clear, yet it is precisely because of people like you who just don't know much about it that the system sucks so hard.
Well, settle down there killer. I'm not arguing against universal healthcare. I'm arguing against universal government controlled healthcare because I have little confidence in the ability of our government to provide me with quality healthcare. Selfish? Absolutely. In sum, in response to my acknowledging that there is a problem, you have spouted curses at me like I'm an idiot. Okay, that's fine; I don't know enough about the issue to argue about it intelligently.

However, I read your links. I don't see anywhere in there that says anything about mandated government healthcare fixing any problems at all. All I see in those links is that there is a problem in the United States and that it was not solved by Health Savings Accounts and it's not being solved by health insurance companies. So, in response you would say that healthcare is better in England than it is in the United States. Why? Do you have evidence of this? If you're evidence is that everyone has access to healthcare in England but not the US, I accept that as an answer, but not as an answer to whether government-controlled healthcare is better than any other alternative. It happens in many of these threads, but I'm going to try to nip it in the bud here, that people argue about completely different issues.. In other words, you're arguing that healthcare in the US is not available to everyone and I agree with you. But when I ask if healthcare is better (quality-wise) because it is run by the government in England, you say "healthcare in the US is not available to everyone."

In any event, I'll read up on this so I can argue with people somewhat intelligently.
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Re: Libertarianism is stupid.

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captain.crazy wrote:I think that lifestyle has to be a factor. If you drink a lot and get liver disease, that is your fault. you know the risks. Insurance doesn't pay for you. You can't get life insurance if you commit suicide, you don't get coverage if you commit arson... same thing. It should be considered fraud.
I'm talking about a 110 pound woman who exercises every day, takes cholestoral medicine, etc.; then she has a heart attack because heart disease runs in her family. Is that fraud? I certainly don't think so.
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Re: Libertarianism is stupid.

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thegreekdog wrote:I have heard from some sources that healthcare in England and Canada is very low quality. Is this true (for those of you living in England and Canada)? There was a story about a veteran in England who couldn't get his eyes checked out and is now blind (I don't know the entire story). Is that true or is there more to the story? I'm just wondering because while I will readily admit some number of Americans (40 million?) don't have health insurance, do people who have access to healthcare still get the treatment they need (in places like England). I'm not trying to be sarcastic; I'm really asking.
I can't speak for either of those countries, but I have noticed nothing of the sort here. I'm insured with a "public insurance company" (as opposed to "private insurance company", which also exist), and my experiences with the system have so far been good. I have had two surgeries and both times I was practically able to handpick the date I wanted to have them. I had a possibly cancerous lump removed within a week by a specialist, the analysis was finished some two or three weeks later (it turned out to be harmless). I put off the other that wasn't so urgent for a month or two and had the surgery on December 20th or 21st and was back home the 23rd. My insurance covered both.

If I go to a general practitioner (even unannounced) I seldom have to wait more than 20 minutes to see them, I think the longest ever was around an hour, and that was during the height of flu-season.

There's regularly some story about people with private insurance being treated better, faster, or just in a friendlier manner, personally I haven't noticed anything of the sort.
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Re: Libertarianism is stupid.

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MeDeFe wrote:
thegreekdog wrote:I have heard from some sources that healthcare in England and Canada is very low quality. Is this true (for those of you living in England and Canada)? There was a story about a veteran in England who couldn't get his eyes checked out and is now blind (I don't know the entire story). Is that true or is there more to the story? I'm just wondering because while I will readily admit some number of Americans (40 million?) don't have health insurance, do people who have access to healthcare still get the treatment they need (in places like England). I'm not trying to be sarcastic; I'm really asking.
I can't speak for either of those countries, but I have noticed nothing of the sort here. I'm insured with a "public insurance company" (as opposed to "private insurance company", which also exist), and my experiences with the system have so far been good. I have had two surgeries and both times I was practically able to handpick the date I wanted to have them. I had a possibly cancerous lump removed within a week by a specialist, the analysis was finished some two or three weeks later (it turned out to be harmless). I put off the other that wasn't so urgent for a month or two and had the surgery on December 20th or 21st and was back home the 23rd. My insurance covered both.

If I go to a general practitioner (even unannounced) I seldom have to wait more than 20 minutes to see them, I think the longest ever was around an hour, and that was during the height of flu-season.

There's regularly some story about people with private insurance being treated better, faster, or just in a friendlier manner, personally I haven't noticed anything of the sort.
This is Germany?

I suppose if I can get the same quality healthcare after universal government controlled healthcare that I get now, I'd be happy. Seems we're going that way in any event. And I can't say that I feel bad for health insurance companies.
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Re: Libertarianism is stupid.

Post by Snorri1234 »

thegreekdog wrote: Well, settle down there killer. I'm not arguing against universal healthcare. I'm arguing against universal government controlled healthcare because I have little confidence in the ability of our government to provide me with quality healthcare.
The problem is that the only way to get universal healthcare is if the government mandates it. (Not control because they can let hospitals run themselves as a company, much as it happens here.)
Selfish? Absolutely. In sum, in response to my acknowledging that there is a problem, you have spouted curses at me like I'm an idiot. Okay, that's fine; I don't know enough about the issue to argue about it intelligently.
I haven't directed them at you because I'm angry at you, it's the mindset I'm angry at. The rhetoric spouted at people til they start thinking that any form of government control is automatically bad because it is government control.
However, I read your links. I don't see anywhere in there that says anything about mandated government healthcare fixing any problems at all. All I see in those links is that there is a problem in the United States and that it was not solved by Health Savings Accounts and it's not being solved by health insurance companies.
Those links were meant to show what the cause of the problem is. It shows that the direct cause of the problems is the fact that people believed that healthcare is consumed just like any other consumergood. It is an absurd assumption to make.
So, in response you would say that healthcare is better in England than it is in the United States. Why? Do you have evidence of this? If you're evidence is that everyone has access to healthcare in England but not the US, I accept that as an answer, but not as an answer to whether government-controlled healthcare is better than any other alternative.
It's cheaper, provides almost the same level of care (actually, the same level of care for the most part) and everyone has acces.
Not to mention that the for profit-model means that treating symptoms is more profitable than actualy treating the disease.link
Or that the prices of medicine is almost unrelated to productioncosts but increases simply because companies want to make more money. link
Or how about the fact that the US has an unbelievable high deathrate for newborn infants. link
It happens in many of these threads, but I'm going to try to nip it in the bud here, that people argue about completely different issues.. In other words, you're arguing that healthcare in the US is not available to everyone and I agree with you. But when I ask if healthcare is better (quality-wise) because it is run by the government in England, you say "healthcare in the US is not available to everyone."
Ofcourse, that seems like reason enough already.
But:
The World Health Organization (WHO), in 2000, ranked the U.S. health care system as the highest in cost, first in responsiveness, 37th in overall performance, and 72nd by overall level of health (among 191 member nations included in the study)
You are ranked by the CIA factbook as 46th in life-expectancy.

Quality of healthcare is a fuzzy topic anyway. Doctors in the US peform more high-end medical procedures and for some forms of cancer you have the best survival rate, but that doesn't mean the system has the best quality. Because most people don't need expensive, rare medical procedures nor do they have rare forms of cancer, they need broken bones fixed, antibiotics to treat infections and medicine to stop stomachpain. And in that aspect the US peforms just as well for the insured populace as the Europeans do for their entire populace. Doctors are just as well trained here as over there, I should know because I'm actually in medschool. And since they do not have to worry about whether they get paid for treating patients or sued by them, they can actually focus on making better because that is their job.
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Re: Libertarianism is stupid.

Post by Snorri1234 »

thegreekdog wrote:
MeDeFe wrote:
thegreekdog wrote:I have heard from some sources that healthcare in England and Canada is very low quality. Is this true (for those of you living in England and Canada)? There was a story about a veteran in England who couldn't get his eyes checked out and is now blind (I don't know the entire story). Is that true or is there more to the story? I'm just wondering because while I will readily admit some number of Americans (40 million?) don't have health insurance, do people who have access to healthcare still get the treatment they need (in places like England). I'm not trying to be sarcastic; I'm really asking.
I can't speak for either of those countries, but I have noticed nothing of the sort here. I'm insured with a "public insurance company" (as opposed to "private insurance company", which also exist), and my experiences with the system have so far been good. I have had two surgeries and both times I was practically able to handpick the date I wanted to have them. I had a possibly cancerous lump removed within a week by a specialist, the analysis was finished some two or three weeks later (it turned out to be harmless). I put off the other that wasn't so urgent for a month or two and had the surgery on December 20th or 21st and was back home the 23rd. My insurance covered both.

If I go to a general practitioner (even unannounced) I seldom have to wait more than 20 minutes to see them, I think the longest ever was around an hour, and that was during the height of flu-season.

There's regularly some story about people with private insurance being treated better, faster, or just in a friendlier manner, personally I haven't noticed anything of the sort.
This is Germany?

I suppose if I can get the same quality healthcare after universal government controlled healthcare that I get now, I'd be happy. Seems we're going that way in any event. And I can't say that I feel bad for health insurance companies.
The system the US will eventually adopt will probably resemble that of germany closely anyway. Or that of The Netherlands. It's a mix between private and public where the premiums are fixed and people get funded if they cannot pay for it.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Health_in_the_Netherlands
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Health_in_Germany
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Re: Libertarianism is stupid.

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I'll just leave my argument regarding healthcare to this: If I can get the same or better quality healthcare under a government controlled universal healthcare plan at less of a cost than I'm paying now (which is what universal healthcare proponents expound), I can get behind universal government controlled healthcare. However, all the anecdotal stories I've heard from countries like Canada and England is that I won't receive the same high level of care under such a plan than I would receive currently in the US. I know I'm being selfish, but, well, there it is.

Additionally, while I understand that government control being good or bad has to be taken on a case-by-case basis, it has been my experience that when the US (or state) government controls something, they don't do a very good job with it. So, you have to forgive me for being skeptical about a government-run healthcare program.

Anyway, if we could argue some more about the problems you (snorri) and others have with Libertariansim apart from healthcare, that would be preferable (since I will concede on the healthcare issue).
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Re: Libertarianism is stupid.

Post by Snorri1234 »

thegreekdog wrote:I'll just leave my argument regarding healthcare to this: If I can get the same or better quality healthcare under a government controlled universal healthcare plan at less of a cost than I'm paying now (which is what universal healthcare proponents expound), I can get behind universal government controlled healthcare. However, all the anecdotal stories I've heard from countries like Canada and England is that I won't receive the same high level of care under such a plan than I would receive currently in the US. I know I'm being selfish, but, well, there it is.
Hell, I won't call you on being selfish. That's your choice. Though those anecdotal stories are just flukes in the system, that happens in any system. But the US already has a problem with people going bankrupt because their insurance suddenly doesn't pay for what they need.

However, from an economic viewpoint the system is failing. It is failing pretty bad actually. I'll explain it in my next post.
Additionally, while I understand that government control being good or bad has to be taken on a case-by-case basis, it has been my experience that when the US (or state) government controls something, they don't do a very good job with it. So, you have to forgive me for being skeptical about a government-run healthcare program.
Yeah, but the way it is being run now is frankly even worse than what the government even in the worst-case scenario could do.
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Re: Libertarianism is stupid.

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(Not my own words)

PART THE FIRST: CHEAP RHINOPLASTY IS THE RESULT OF A COLLAPSING MEDICAL SYSTEM

The most important doctor in society, the most important doctor you will ever have, is the family doctor. The GP who knows your weight, your blood pressure, complains when you smoke, all of that. As has been noted, they make a decent salary but nothing special. They're in line with what European doctors make.

Until you factor in malpractice insurance, which has been increasing its rates about 20% a year for the past decade or more, while doctor salaries have not kept in line. On account of this, the take-home pay of these doctors most critically associated with health and well-being is going down. (http://www.gnyha.org/3283/File.aspx).

A perfect example of how disastrous this trend is is to look at New York City hospitals' malpractice insurance, which has gone up 147% in five years, to the point where they are shutting down obstetrics divisions.

The end result of all this is that doctors are being chased into lucrative sub-fields in order to maintain their lifestyle. They have bills to pay, but under our current system, doctors are not paid to make people well, they are paid to perform procedures. Even worse, they are only really paid for the procedures they didn't have to perform on people who cannot pay. Many doctors, to maximize their income, are learning to perform the most expensive procedures possible, and they are competing to get into fields where they don't have to do work that they won't get paid for.

If they paid doctors to make people well, you'd have a lot more GP's, who are the ones on the front lines actually doing this. Instead, the 'winners' in the current system are carving out transplant hearts and vacuuming out fat and stapling stomachs and crowding quickly into any and all available fields where you don't have to do shit for anyone who can't pay, and thus, are not forced to accept the poor people of society as a financial liability. Since medical professionals are all crowding these optional procedure fields as fast as possible, prices for these services are going down. It's not a demonstration of how uninfluenced competition is working to our benefit in some fields as much as it it is another hilarious symptom of a collapsing medical system.

Cosmetic surgeons and the like are the 'winners' of our current system. They do completely optional and expensive procedures, only for people who pay out of pocket, they are not forced to work through thieving bureaucratic intermediaries, they are not forced by financially 'unfortunate' policies to care for those who cannot pay, and despite being under the catchall term of a medical profession, they're a little different -- they are actually all but irrelevant to our general health. They cater only to those who have the excess wealth to spend on optional procedures.

The end result is that the government has already been forced to bribe doctors with taxpayer money to remain as essentially skeleton crews in necessary medical fields which HAVE to be staffed (city hospitals, etc) but nearly NO competent doctor would stay in business in if they were forced to rely upon the profit model. Just about every single top doc in places like North Dakota or Arkansas is essentially bribed by the government with huge amounts of supplemental income to not leave. It's another example of how we're trying inefficiently to sneak in socialized solutions to float the broken moral hazard model and still somehow pretend, for the benefit of some schmucks, that it's seaworthy of its own accord.

PART THE SECOND: HELLO MEDICARE PLEASE KEEP MY ILLUSIONS, PRETENSES, AND PARENTS ALIVE

There's also another issue and it becomes evident when you ask seniors what form of healthcare they want. The big old socialized medical care program called Medicare, known alternately as being 'the most popular program in America' and 'the politically untouchable juggernaut.' Socialism, right here in the heart of the dear old U.S. because private medical care wouldn't touch the issue of care for the elderly.

Why? The elderly have the same sort of issue which leaves orphan diseasers to sit in a corner and die. There is no way to make taking care of old people profitable. Good thing that private insurers get to bypass the issue of maintenance of the elderly.

Thanks, Medicare, for being the big bad socialized medical program that makes 'private' health coverage remotely feasible!

PART THE THIRD: KILL GRANDMA

A free market health care system can work but only if nothing forces our hospitals and care networks to do anything for those who cannot pay upfront. In a free market system, you either pay or you don't. If you can't pay, you don't get the service. In the case of medical care, if you don't pay, you die. It's tough, but it's the only way the system can work. Right now, medical providers HAVE to treat people regardless of their ability to pay, in life-threatening situations. This fucks the entire system right up. Because uninsured people don't get stuff looked at when it's minor (because they can't afford to pay), they let things get worse, go to the ER, where they either die or live, and in any event run up huge bills. If the hospital can't get that person to pay, they have to make up for the shortfall elsewhere, or go out of business. So everyone else pays higher rates for things. Which FORCES a kind of socialism on the system anyway.

In order to be a good capitalist, you have to kill grandma. If you cannot pay during a life-threatening ordeal, you have to die. If you don't practice this then all you get is incredibly shitty socialism where everyone ends up absorbing all the costs for the old and the poor anyway even though we're not giving them effective care, just 'necessary' care. Kill grandma. Kill grandma kill grandma and squint real hard and pretend that the mere existence of paltry private charity that will save some people absolves you of any guilt for supporting a system that will leave scores more out on the streets in front of hospitals to die. The problem here is that people's will to actually follow through with their "free market will save the Universe" rhetoric is not strong when faced with an uninsured sick person. Especially an uninsured sick OLD person (who tend to vote in large numbers, and whose population is always increasing) So we start building slipshod systems like Medicare and Medicaid. Kill grandma, otherwise you're a shitty capitalist. You're welcome to say that the free market is the solution to our current woes but you can't pretend that it comes without some extraordinarily worrying sacrifices. If you don't have the balls to kill grandma, then you're going to have to swallow your pride and your 'the free market will save the world' bullshit and stick up for a socialist model.

CONCLUSION


Well, for starters, if you honestly believe that our system is better than a universal health care scheme, or that for reasons of size we would be 'unable' to institute effective universal care here in America, okay, you're being retarded and that's pretty much the long and short of it. The former argument is counter-evidenced by all reasonable metrics, so pursuit of that chain of logic is dissonance with reality of the finest sort; the latter argument is a bald premise evidenced by nothing. Both are blatantly untrue. It's outright stupid to believe them right now.

I care very little about both of those arguments, as they are desperate attempts to prop up an argument that is continuing a guaranteed trek into irrelevance. In the long term, there is no question as to whether or not we will be switching to universal health care. We will. The reason why it is so inevitable is because the current model is collapsing on itself due to issues of medical payment crisis. Hospitals are required to care for people in immediate medical crisis, and it is impossible to make a number of vital civil functions profitable or sustainable, market wise, given that requirement.

The end result is that the government has to prop up urban and rural hospitals with a shitty socialist scheme. As noted, we bribe doctors with taxpayer money to keep them in areas which would otherwise not have doctors. We unabashedly prop the system up. We're just doing this in shitty ways in order to appease the people who want to maintain an illusion that the system works without socialism. This is causing the whole structure to collapse in on it.

To give you a tiny hint about how dire the situation is in America: bankruptcy due to medical crisis remains the single largest cause of bankruptcy in the United States, even during the present time period where the big news is about a financial catastrophe that is causing defaults all over the place.

You read that right: the medical crisis which we've been dealing with for over a decade now has over that timeframe been causing problems still worse than any fallout that the financial crisis has yet achieved. In addition, the financial crisis will throw more and more people into the uninsured category, increasing the costs that the dwindling quantity of insured people have to bear, causing more people to become uninsured. Wow, holy shit, death spiral much?

It's retarded. It's unsustainable. America will have universal health care in our lifetime. And the people who are actively working to prevent this are bankrupt and arguably morally negligent in their quest to perpetuate a broken, terrible, stupid ideology. They must be opposed along every step.

Support for raising taxes to provide universal coverage has already achieved a large plurality. As more and more people move to support of universal coverage from out of opposition and from being undecided, it will achieve a majority within the year.

If you are American, it's your duty to press for universal health care as hard as you can. It's about the most important issue facing us as citizens. Help make the transition as prompt as we can manage. And, above all, never ever ever vote for someone who wants to stop universal health care.

If you are not American, it's your duty to continue to mock the shit out of us and our stupid, worthless medical system, so that we get the idea.
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Re: Libertarianism is stupid.

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Snorri1234 wrote:Yeah, but the way it is being run now is frankly even worse than what the government even in the worst-case scenario could do.
But is it worse for me? It's all about me at this point in the discussion. If I can get in to see a doctor now that I can't see under a new healthcare plan, screw the new plan.
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Re: Libertarianism is stupid.

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That was a good discussion, snorri. Again, it's what's wrong with your system. Here in Pennsylvania, the number of emergency heart surgeons has plummetted (according to my father this is because of medical malpractice problems).

In the interest of full disclosure, my dad is a cosmetic/plastic surgeon. 75% of his business is non-insured cosmetic surgery. The other 25% of his practice is sewing on fingers and the like (for which he charges, as an example $500, for which he is paid $50). So, again, I admit the problem. And, again, I don't know if universal government controlled healthcare is the only answer.
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Re: Libertarianism is stupid.

Post by Snorri1234 »

thegreekdog wrote:
Snorri1234 wrote:Yeah, but the way it is being run now is frankly even worse than what the government even in the worst-case scenario could do.
But is it worse for me? It's all about me at this point in the discussion. If I can get in to see a doctor now that I can't see under a new healthcare plan, screw the new plan.
A.) That will never happen. it doesn't make sense to not be able to choose a doctor because there is no negative to being able to choose one.
B.) If you truly believe that, you are not just being selfish. You're morally bankrupt. If you are not willing to sacrifice a tiny fraction of a treatment you will most likely never need anyway to save millions of americans, you're basically a despicable human being.

I mean, seriously, if you believe this why would you ever bother donating to charity? Why would you even bother with making any change to policies if you so clearly do not give a f*ck about other people?
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Re: Libertarianism is stupid.

Post by Snorri1234 »

thegreekdog wrote:That was a good discussion, snorri. Again, it's what's wrong with your system. Here in Pennsylvania, the number of emergency heart surgeons has plummetted (according to my father this is because of medical malpractice problems).

In the interest of full disclosure, my dad is a cosmetic/plastic surgeon. 75% of his business is non-insured cosmetic surgery. The other 25% of his practice is sewing on fingers and the like (for which he charges, as an example $500, for which he is paid $50). So, again, I admit the problem. And, again, I don't know if universal government controlled healthcare is the only answer.
It is not the only answer. The other answer is Kill Grandma.
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Re: Libertarianism is stupid.

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Snorri1234 wrote:B.) If you truly believe that, you are not just being selfish. You're morally bankrupt. If you are not willing to sacrifice a tiny fraction of a treatment you will most likely never need anyway to save millions of americans, you're basically a despicable human being.
:lol:

I would bet that I give more money to charity and pay more taxes than you do. Let's not get into a discussion of who is or is not morally bankrupt... because if we're basing it on charity or being a good person, I win that one. Again, you should refrain from calling me morally bankrupt simply because I believe that there may be a solution to the problem apart from universal healthcare. Your continued insistence that I'm a horrible individual and/or stupid is belaying the validity of your arguments. By turning this into a "hey, you don't want healthcare for all, you're a jerk" you are acting as idiotic as someone you would consistently make fun of (for example, a hardcore conservative).

Let's, instead, discuss the fact that rather than even acknowledging any ideas apart from government-controlled healthcare, you are assuming there is no other way to solve the problems. I don't know if my healthcare would be better or worse; what I do know, is that if the government begins to control healthcare, it will likely retain control for the foreseeable future; meaning that if my healthcare quality decreases dramatically, I will not be able to choose something else (or maybe I can, I don't know) apart from leaving the United States for a country without a universal healthcare system (of which none exist that I would like to live in).
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b.k. barunt
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Re: Libertarianism is stupid.

Post by b.k. barunt »

thegreekdog wrote:
I'm sorry about your situtation honibaz. How did you end up taking care of that bill, if you don't mind me asking?
That would begin a long litany of finacial woes that ended up costing me a lot more than 30 thousand. I'll spare you all that, but i will mention the fact that the guy who hit me was carrying the minum liability coverage and i got only 15,000 for that.

Suffice it to say that an injury or illness in this country can ruin a person financially - that aint right. Education and health care should be provided by the state - whatthefuck do we pay taxes for? Cops and roads? I damn sure don't need the cops, and the roads benefit big business more than me - let them pay for it - i'll pay tolls to use them (do that anyway on big bridges).


Honibaz
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Re: Libertarianism is stupid.

Post by Snorri1234 »

thegreekdog wrote: I would bet that I give more money to charity and pay more taxes than you do. Let's not get into a discussion of who is or is not morally bankrupt... because if we're basing it on charity or being a good person, I win that one.
But what's the point in donating money to charity then? You're unwilling to do something good for millions of people and then claim some moral highground because you donate money to charity?
Again, you should refrain from calling me morally bankrupt simply because I believe that there may be a solution to the problem apart from universal healthcare. Your continued insistence that I'm a horrible individual and/or stupid is belaying the validity of your arguments. By turning this into a "hey, you don't want healthcare for all, you're a jerk" you are acting as idiotic as someone you would consistently make fun of (for example, a hardcore conservative).
No, you simply do not understand. I call you a horrible individual because you believe that you possibly getting a coronary rhinoplasty if you suddenly develop something is more important than millions of people not dieing or going bankrupt.

By saying that you care more about having a little better quality in healthcare than saving countless lives and making countless other lives far better, you are basically saying that you do not give a f*ck about them. Your insistence on paying more than you need to to insure that when you get a rare disease you get teh best ever treatment (as opposed to just good treatment) and using that as a justification to denying millions of people the care they need.
Let's, instead, discuss the fact that rather than even acknowledging any ideas apart from government-controlled healthcare, you are assuming there is no other way to solve the problems. I don't know if my healthcare would be better or worse; what I do know, is that if the government begins to control healthcare, it will likely retain control for the foreseeable future; meaning that if my healthcare quality decreases dramatically, I will not be able to choose something else (or maybe I can, I don't know) apart from leaving the United States for a country without a universal healthcare system (of which none exist that I would like to live in).
There is no idea apart from government-mandated healthcare that works. And yes I say mandated because you insist on acting like this will result in some bureaucracy in the hospital where all that matters is filing the correct documents in the correct fashion and nobody cares about the patients. All the government needs to do is ensure that people have insurance and do not get charged extra for being already sick.

You obviously do not read my posts. I told you that the reason your system is so fucked up is because it's capitalist, and you respond by saying that there may be some other awesome capitalistic way to solve the issue. I have posted why universal healthcare can only be socialistic, and you just refuse to respond to it. There is already socialism in your system and the only reason it isn't being imposed on a grand scale is to pretend for a bunch of pricks that the moral hazard system works.

The only way a free market health care system can work is to force the hospitals to not do anything for anyone who cannot pay upfront. This is not only in violation of the hippocratic oath, but also a huge and sadistic f*ck you to millions of people who aren't at fault. You haven't understood a single word in my huge post about this, so quit acting like a douche.
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Re: Libertarianism is stupid.

Post by Snorri1234 »

b.k. barunt wrote:
thegreekdog wrote:
I'm sorry about your situtation honibaz. How did you end up taking care of that bill, if you don't mind me asking?
That would begin a long litany of finacial woes that ended up costing me a lot more than 30 thousand. I'll spare you all that, but i will mention the fact that the guy who hit me was carrying the minum liability coverage and i got only 15,000 for that.

Suffice it to say that an injury or illness in this country can ruin a person financially - that aint right. Education and health care should be provided by the state - whatthefuck do we pay taxes for? Cops and roads? I damn sure don't need the cops, and the roads benefit big business more than me - let them pay for it - i'll pay tolls to use them (do that anyway on big bridges).


Honibaz
Indeed. I have mentioned this a few times but I like repeating things when people don't listen.

The leading cause of personal bankruptcy in the US is unpaid medical bills. It is even now in this financial crisis. I mean, how fucked up is that? Even when the whole world is talking about how terrible this crisis is and how people are losing their jobs and savings, you have more people going bankrupt because they got sick and couldn't pay their bills.
"Some motherfuckers are always trying to ice skate uphill."

Duane: You know what they say about love and war.
Tim: Yes, one involves a lot of physical and psychological pain, and the other one's war.
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Re: Libertarianism is stupid.

Post by thegreekdog »

You would not be a good lawyer, snorri. Opposing counsel does not take well to being called stupid for no apparent reason.

In any event, I'll stoop to your level.

Here's what you're saying:

"greek, you're mean because you want people to not have healthcare if it means you don't get good healthcare."

Not true. I want people to figure out a way to get the post of both worlds. Let's try that before we resort to government control, you stupid piece of communist crap. Why do you even care?

"just because you donate to charity does not make you better than me.

No, it doesn't. But what it does make me is someone who is NOT a morally bankrupt person... WHICH IS WHAT YOU EFFING CALLED ME. You see, I read your posts.

"all my posts show that socialist medical care works."

No, they don't you pretentious, self-absorbed asshole. All your posts are about how the US medical system sucks. I already agreed with you on that, which you would know if you read my other posts. Instead, when I try to get people to think about non-government ideas that may work, you go run your mouth like you have diaharea coming out the wrong end.

"you're just another conservative son of a bitch."

You should know better than that. I've posted in a ton of your stupid effing threads. I'm a reasonable guy. I admit when I'm wrong. I'm not a Republican, I'm only conservative about certain issues. I'll do what's best for me and what's best for everyone else. You want to do what's easiest. That's not always the best. But, hey, let's just not think about other stuff.

You are a little baby who whines and makes personal attacks when he doesn't get his way.
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Re: Libertarianism is stupid.

Post by MeDeFe »

thegreekdog wrote:...

Not true. I want people to figure out a way to get the post of both worlds. Let's try that before we resort to government control, you stupid piece of communist crap. Why do you even care?...
Government MANDATED healthcare.

Not "controlled".
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Re: Libertarianism is stupid.

Post by thegreekdog »

MeDeFe wrote:
thegreekdog wrote:...

Not true. I want people to figure out a way to get the post of both worlds. Let's try that before we resort to government control, you stupid piece of communist crap. Why do you even care?...
Government MANDATED healthcare.

Not "controlled".
Is that what they have in Germany? Based on everything you've told me, the Germany healthcare plan may be the way to go.

Is government-mandated healthcare akin to subsidizing health insurance? If so, I think we probably need to curb the insurance companies; otherwise, the claim-denying nature of insurance companies could still be rampant. How do they handle that in Germany? Does the government determine what medical claims are valid?

Again... and ad naseum... I really am asking... I'm not being sarcastic.
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Re: Libertarianism is stupid.

Post by Snorri1234 »

thegreekdog wrote: "greek, you're mean because you want people to not have healthcare if it means you don't get good healthcare."

Not true. I want people to figure out a way to get the post of both worlds. Let's try that before we resort to government control, you stupid piece of communist crap. Why do you even care?
Actually, the general gist of your argument is that.
"just because you donate to charity does not make you better than me.

No, it doesn't. But what it does make me is someone who is NOT a morally bankrupt person... WHICH IS WHAT YOU EFFING CALLED ME. You see, I read your posts.
Actually, I called you that because I thought you refused to accept that screwing over millions of people is acceptable as long as you get a little better healthcare. You actually posted that the argument was about you and your healthcare, and that you didn't want to sacrifice even a little if it meant everyone getting the care they need.
"all my posts show that socialist medical care works."

No, they don't you pretentious, self-absorbed asshole. All your posts are about how the US medical system sucks. I already agreed with you on that, which you would know if you read my other posts. Instead, when I try to get people to think about non-government ideas that may work, you go run your mouth like you have diaharea coming out the wrong end.
I know you agree that the medical system sucks, you just don't understand why it sucks. It sucks because the "CAPITALISM IS DA BEST" idea in it does not work. Therefore, the only solution is putting in some government, which according to the USA is socialism. There is no way to insure everybody without a government mandate. There is no capitalist incentive to insuring old people or already sick people.
"you're just another conservative son of a bitch."

You should know better than that. I've posted in a ton of your stupid effing threads. I'm a reasonable guy. I admit when I'm wrong. I'm not a Republican, I'm only conservative about certain issues.
Okay, I didn't even call you a conservative.
I'll do what's best for me and what's best for everyone else. You want to do what's easiest. That's not always the best. But, hey, let's just not think about other stuff.
Except you do not want what is best for everyone else if that means you have to sacrifice something. Even if it's not actually something you are likely to need or save money.
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Re: Libertarianism is stupid.

Post by Snorri1234 »

thegreekdog wrote:
MeDeFe wrote:
thegreekdog wrote:...

Not true. I want people to figure out a way to get the post of both worlds. Let's try that before we resort to government control, you stupid piece of communist crap. Why do you even care?...
Government MANDATED healthcare.

Not "controlled".
Is that what they have in Germany? Based on everything you've told me, the Germany healthcare plan may be the way to go.

Is government-mandated healthcare akin to subsidizing health insurance? If so, I think we probably need to curb the insurance companies; otherwise, the claim-denying nature of insurance companies could still be rampant. How do they handle that in Germany? Does the government determine what medical claims are valid?

Again... and ad naseum... I really am asking... I'm not being sarcastic.
Government-mandated, like we have over here in our socialist communion of The Netherlands, means subsidizing health insurance (unless you have enough money to pay) and telling the companies that they cannot refuse anyone. It also means that everyone needs to get healthinsurance or they get a fine. (Which is 130% of the actual insurance-cost and can be applied even if you just went a month without insurance and then got it again.) And yes, the government ensures that medical practices are paid for by the company. Or rather, it's illegal for a company to deny payment on a treatment which a doctor deems medically neccesary.

This way insurance-companies can't make a lot of money on insurance, but they can make money on striking deals with hospitals and compete with eachother to get the most clients. (Since every client brings a little more extra cash)
"Some motherfuckers are always trying to ice skate uphill."

Duane: You know what they say about love and war.
Tim: Yes, one involves a lot of physical and psychological pain, and the other one's war.
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Re: Libertarianism is stupid.

Post by captain.crazy »

Snorri1234 wrote:
thegreekdog wrote:
MeDeFe wrote:
thegreekdog wrote:...

Not true. I want people to figure out a way to get the post of both worlds. Let's try that before we resort to government control, you stupid piece of communist crap. Why do you even care?...
Government MANDATED healthcare.

Not "controlled".
Is that what they have in Germany? Based on everything you've told me, the Germany healthcare plan may be the way to go.

Is government-mandated healthcare akin to subsidizing health insurance? If so, I think we probably need to curb the insurance companies; otherwise, the claim-denying nature of insurance companies could still be rampant. How do they handle that in Germany? Does the government determine what medical claims are valid?

Again... and ad naseum... I really am asking... I'm not being sarcastic.
Government-mandated, like we have over here in our socialist communion of The Netherlands, means subsidizing health insurance (unless you have enough money to pay) and telling the companies that they cannot refuse anyone. It also means that everyone needs to get healthinsurance or they get a fine. (Which is 130% of the actual insurance-cost and can be applied even if you just went a month without insurance and then got it again.) And yes, the government ensures that medical practices are paid for by the company. Or rather, it's illegal for a company to deny payment on a treatment which a doctor deems medically neccesary.

This way insurance-companies can't make a lot of money on insurance, but they can make money on striking deals with hospitals and compete with eachother to get the most clients. (Since every client brings a little more extra cash)
You aren't even American? How about you STFU about American politics? Its none of your business how we govern ourselves.
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Re: Libertarianism is stupid.

Post by Timminz »

captain.crazy wrote:You aren't even American? How about you STFU about American politics? Its none of your business how we govern ourselves.
Yeah! The Americans always keep their nose out of other countries' business. Why can't the rest of the world do the same?
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