Congratulations people of Crimea

[saxitoxin]

This is what I'm talking about. I do not understand this rise of Putin-worship that has happened, especially in America. I'm sure that for many rednecks, they love Putin as the anti-hero, the anti-Obama hero, but is that really enough to explain away the positive reception that Putin gets in media?

More talking points JB's been fed by the extreme right-wing, corporate-backed Madison Avenue PR agencies that work for the Obama/Bush administration. Max Blumenthal, son of Clinton advisor Sid Blumenthal, and a prominent progressive peace activist and journalist, writing on the so-called "resignation" of Liz Wahl from RT, described exactly "the JB Phenomenon" - how neo-cons turn average Americans in flyover states into frothing-at-the-mouth war hysterics, screaming for blood:

• Behind the coverage of Wahl’s dramatic protest, a cadre of neoconservatives was celebrating a public relations coup. Desperate to revive the Cold War, head off further cuts to the defense budget and restore the legitimacy they lost in the ruins of Iraq, the tightknit group of neoconservative writers and stewards had opened up a new PR front through Wahl’s resignation.
  
  It was a full 19 minutes before Wahl resigned. Inside the offices of the Foreign Policy Initiative, a neoconservative think tank in Washington D.C., a staffer logged on to the group’s Twitter account to announce the following:
  
  “#WordOnTheStreet says that something big might happen on RT in about 20-25 minutes.”
  
  The tweets from FPI suggested a direct level of coordination between Wahl and the neoconservative think tank. Several calls to FPI for this story were not answered.
  
  Just over an hour later, an exclusive interview with Wahl appeared at The Daily Beast. It was authored by James Kirchick, a 31-year-old writer whose work has appeared in publications from the neoconservative Commentary to the Israeli paper Haaretz.
  
  In fact, Kirchick was a senior fellow at FPI, the neoconservative think tank that had hyped up Wahl’s resignation minutes before she quit. Launched by Weekly Standard founder William Kristol and two former foreign policy aides to Mitt Romney, Dan Senor and Robert Kagan (the husband of [Obama's] Assistant Secretary of State for European and Eurasian Affairs Victoria Nuland), FPI grew directly out of the Project for a New American Century that led the public pressure campaign for a unilateral U.S. invasion of Iraq after the Bin Laden-orchestrated 9/11 attacks.
  
  http://www.truthdig.com/report/item/how ... n_20140319

This, of course, is what progressives and peace supporters are up against. We can't match the signal-to-noise ratio of the neo-con sound machine that makes the dime-a-dozen JB's of America wildly dance about, being pulled from issue to issue - one day rallying for war against Kony, the next rallying for war against Syria, then forgetting it and moving to call for war on Russia for a few days until some new shiny bauble is flashed in front of him and he's screaming for war against someone else ... he's oblivious to the fact that every line he pounds out is a line composed by corporate America.

[mrswdk]

But damn you to hell telling other people to go fight and die for your cause!

I think you'll find that everyone who joins a national army joins in the knowledge that at some point they will be sent to fight on behalf of someone else.

[GoranZ]

In 1936 Hitler/Germany hosted the Olympics in Berlin. After showing off German prestige through this event; he sent foriegn agents throughout Austria, eventually annexing it into his Reich. It didn't get much attention in the world, as Hitler and everyone else shrugged it off as uniting people with a common history.
Czechoslovakia cried "We're surrounded!" Yet again, nobody paid much mind until Germany annexed them too. As we know today, Hitler wanted to surround Czechoslovakia in a pincher all along.

Today, Putin/Russia hosts the Olympics, then sends agents into Crimea eventually illegally annexing the Crimea into Russia. And nobody pays much attention, because as the apologists in the page have already said "they're mostly of the same ancestry." Now the Ukraine is in a pincher; the Russians have confiscated all but 1 of their warships, and the Ukrainian army has been decimated by a decade of corruption. Will Ukraine be forced to surrender herself the same way Czechoslovakia did? I don't know, but these are events are eerily similar.


My brain is working fine, use yours before you insult me.

For every similarity between German occupation of Austria and Crimean merger with Russia there are at least 10 differences...
1. Austria was independent state in the moment of German annexation.
2. Austria was independent long time before Germany.
3. Crimea was not independent state in the last few centuries and currently it was part of Ukraine.
4. Hitler was Austrian.
5. Putin is not Crimean.
6. Crimea was gifted to Ukraine in 1954 from president of USSR who was Ukrainian.
7. In the last 2 centuries Crimea always had Russian solders on its soil, Austria didn't had German.
8. The Olympics in Berlin was summer... then one in Sochi was Winter
9. Seventy thousand people were arrested immediately after the annexation of Austria by Germany.
10. Jews are not attacked in Crimea.

You are quite off according to your logic. You say that your brain is working properly. If you still think that Putin and Hitler have much in common check your brain again

[saxitoxin]

His country has a 99% conviction rate

Hilarious.

U.S. Conviction Rate (federal): 93%
Japan Conviction Rate: 99%+

Just a shocking lack of critical thinking and an incredible willingness to absorb corporate spin like a sponge. Just shocking. Your mind should be a treasure, JB. Treat it like one and put a filter on what you let in. Stop treating it like a garbage dump where you deposit hollow talking points and used Ho-Ho wrappers.

[GoranZ]

Does the Russian government have an incentive to lie about information? Do they have the ability to influence media companies? (same goes for the companies' owners, and their valuation of reporting truth versus abiding by consumer preferences and 'orders from above').

If the answer is, Yes, and Yes, then that's some evidence.

Figuring out the strength of that influence is difficult, but there's proxies like "how democratic is Russia?, how free is their press, what's the correlation like between freedom of press and democracy, what about economic freedom, etc.?"

If I had to guess, I'd say that Russia's media isn't as free as the Uhmerica's. A safe assumption is that both are pretty much propaganda on the topic of foreign policy.

I agree that figuring out the strength of the influence from the media is hard to tell but I think that US also target foreign media(especially in UK and Europe) not only their domestic ones. So basically US's influence is quite bigger then Russian one. On the other hand Russia has RT which is made primarily for foreign market as counter balance to US influence of foreign media.
Beside threw RT I dont know how Russian government influence is shaped in Russia itself(I dont know Russian so having access to Russian channels doesn't help), in US is easier since same media is influencing everything.

History shows, including recent history, Russia is a propaganda machine. Like I said, pretty much all governments are propaganda machines. That is one of the fundamental things about governance, propaganda.

History shows that American media are widely used for US propaganda. If we take US public opinion before the witch hunt for Weapons of Mass destruction in Iraq and after it, everyone can notice that media made the crucial change in public opinion. And that lead to war with Iraq and of course finding zero Weapons of Mass destruction in Iraq. What can I say hats off to those that made the propaganda, and what were you thinking to the US public.
On the other hand majority(55%) of Russians approve merger with Crimea before Ukrainian crisis, and the peak currently is 90% approval, which could have been as an effect of several factors including media but not nearly as much as with the influence of American media in US. So if you like to say "Russia is a propaganda machine" then you will have to say "US is at least 5 x Russia's propaganda machine", otherwise you are simply WRONG.

[BigBallinStalin]

I like the realist aspect of patches' points, but realism does have a normative guideline: maximize state security. Having a normative guideline is unavoidable but having a complementary, moral guideline is necessary; otherwise, you could find plenty of reasons to beat up or threaten other people.

Whoa BBS, you need to consider something that you might not have! If you do indeed like the realist aspect.

You see the argument goes (see JB's post for an example) is that Putin is trying to take over the world, or Europe or that he's bent on conquering a la Hitler and such.
But that argument falls apart quickly when we actually look at the facts.

The first fact one must consider is that at least thus far, Russia has acted rationally towards the Ukraine. Even if you don't like what Russia is doing, if you are honest with yourself you'll admit that it shouldn't surprise you and that even we might very well do the exact same thing in their position.

The second fact is that considering that Russia is acting rationally, we have to understand Russia's current situation, which may not be widely understood by the average person. Russia has not established any Russian rule over non Russian people. Even in Georgia, Russian intervened on the side of the Ossetians, who identify and consider themselves Russian. So this doesn't fit at all with the non realist position that Russia is turning into a conquering menace out to take over the world.

And if Russia is truly out to retake it's former vassals as people like JB complain then-

My point is that you'll still lean on moral guidelines even if your approach is 'amoral'.

[Juan_Bottom]

Is that Saxitoxin character still a thing here?

History shows that American media are widely used for US propaganda. If we take US public opinion before the witch hunt for Weapons of Mass destruction in Iraq and after it, everyone can notice that media made the crucial change in public opinion. And that lead to war with Iraq and of course finding zero Weapons of Mass destruction in Iraq. What can I say hats off to those that made the propaganda.
On the other hand majority(55%) of Russians approve merger with Crimea before Ukrainian crisis, and the peak currently is 90% approval, which could have been as an effect of several factors including media but not nearly as much as with the influence of American media in US. So if you like to say "Russia is a propaganda machine" then you will have to say "US is at least 5 x Russia's propaganda machine", otherwise you are simply WRONG.

Nationalism on both accounts.

Russia's media is less free, because as I pointed out their government imprisons, detains, and assassinates reporters. To my knowledge no reporters have been killed by Obama's cronies.
Furthermore, your media is what you make of it. I like NPR and Vice. In Europe American media corporations behave differently than they do here, in accordance with what sells. So does the same bullshit sports story sell in Macedonia? I have no idea. But the Millennial generation has been turning more and more to sites like Upworthy and Vice. I think you'd be surprised at how literate some Americans are with current events. in the same vein that we have low scholarly expectations, we also have the largest percentage of geniuses. I'm sure it's the same with current events literacy.

For every similarity between German occupation of Austria and Crimean merger with Russia there are at least 10 differences...
1. Austria was independent state in the moment of German annexation.
2. Austria was independent long time before Germany.
3. Crimea was not independent state in the last few centuries and currently it was part of Ukraine.
4. Hitler was Austrian.
5. Putin is not Crimean.
6. Crimea was gifted to Ukraine in 1954 from president of USSR who was Ukrainian.
7. In the last 2 centuries Crimea always had Russian solders on its soil, Austria didn't had German.
8. The Olympics in Berlin was summer... then one in Sochi was Winter
9. Seventy thousand people were arrested immediately after the annexation of Austria by Germany.
10. Jews are not attacked in Crimea.

You are quite off according to your logic. You say that your brain is working properly. If you still think that Putin and Hitler have much in common check your brain again

This is a waste of my time and yours. Your examples are very shallow, like "Russians don't speak German." It's really low bar, Goranz. And for your number 10, as I pointed out the Crimeans did not allow the Tatars to vote. That's around 300,000 Crimeans who did not participate in the illegal vote to join with Russia. Approximately 20-30% of Crimeans are Taters, and approximately 20% are Ukrainian. So how is it that 98% of Crimea voted to join Russia? There would be at least another 300,000 Taters, though many more, but the Russians enacted a pogram to move them out of choice lands in the Crimea in the 40s and 50s.
On the 18th, you will be well aware, the Russians announced that many of the Taters will be required to leave their homes in Crimea. While Ukrainians have been beaten, intimidated, and held hostage in Crimea, the Taters have largely stayed in their communities or fled to Kiev.

And of course, Crimea belonged to the Taters before Russia violated a peace treaty and annexed it into Russia. But it's like that all over Europe. You can go back thousand years and still not know where these land disputes come from. What matters today is the rule of law, civility, and respect. Russia provoked a war, violated international law, and literally activated paramilitary groups and sent them into the Ukraine to terrorize their population. They rigged the vote, and they are chasing Muslims out of Crimea. They are the bad guys here.

[GoranZ]

History shows that American media are widely used for US propaganda. If we take US public opinion before the witch hunt for Weapons of Mass destruction in Iraq and after it, everyone can notice that media made the crucial change in public opinion. And that lead to war with Iraq and of course finding zero Weapons of Mass destruction in Iraq. What can I say hats off to those that made the propaganda.
On the other hand majority(55%) of Russians approve merger with Crimea before Ukrainian crisis, and the peak currently is 90% approval, which could have been as an effect of several factors including media but not nearly as much as with the influence of American media in US. So if you like to say "Russia is a propaganda machine" then you will have to say "US is at least 5 x Russia's propaganda machine", otherwise you are simply WRONG.

Nationalism on both accounts.

IDK what Americans think about Iraqis but I'm sure majority doesn't hate them(and that's wast majority). Russians also doesn't hate the Ukrainians(or opposite). There goes your nationalism down the toilet.

So does the same bullshit sports story sell in Macedonia?

Get a life If you dont know some sport it doesn't mean its bullshit sport. However it could mean that you are not smart enough to understand it

Approximately 20-30% of Crimeans are Taters, and approximately 20% are Ukrainian. So how is it that 98% of Crimea voted to join Russia?

12% of Crimea population excluding Sevastopol are Tatars. And over 50% of NonRussians in Crimea voted for merger with Russia, other voted against or didn't voted. You wont get very far with fabricated numbers, at least not in CC, but you can try to lie to your kids, they might believe you

What matters today is the rule of law, civility, and respect.

Like in Serbia, Iraq, Lybia and many others. Sorry but we all know what is the exact meaning of American rule of law, American civility, and American respect, we have seen it all in practice

Russia provoked a war, violated international law, and literally activated paramilitary groups and sent them into the Ukraine to terrorize their population. They rigged the vote, and they are chasing Muslims out of Crimea. They are the bad guys here.

What war? So far there wasn't any war actions in Crimea.
If you like to implement international law go a head, undo what US had done in the last 25 years and we can talk, until then you are wasting your time by calling for international law.
From what I see majority of Crimean population is quite happy as part of Russia, so no one is terrorizing them.
If they dont like to live in Crimea, Muslims can go were ever they want no one is holding them back.
You are not the smartest around... its very obvious

[Symmetry]

From what I see majority of Crimean population is quite happy as part of Russia, so no one is terrorizing them.

Key part highlighted.

[Pope Joan]

Hell, I grew up hating Russia (I had a "Better Dead than Red" T-shirt) and that we were eventually going to fight a war with the commies.

And I grew up loving USA. The key difference was that a democratic state had to scare its population to smithereens to justify its military spendings, while a communist state did not need to bother.

I think the Ukraine's #1 export to the US is porn. I might be wrong about that.

Probably right, according to http://www.ustr.gov/countries-regions/e ... ia/ukraine, the biggest category is Iron and Steel , worth $384 million... But if you add the value of Russian brides (Russian Bride Scam Capital is Lugansk in Ukraine) to porn, it could very well be true

[Pope Joan]

Russians also doesn't hate the Ukrainians(or opposite).

It is true that Russians dont hate Ukrainians. On the opposite, there is a sizeable minority of Ukrainians who hate Russians. I guess it is a side-effect of years of fraternal assistance.

Let me focus the conversation on what options the West has at the moment. Off course, there is McCain who wants a shooting war with Ruskies but it is not a serious option. I also dont consider an option of further escalation, which is possible but (hopefully) not likely.

1) Tighten the sanctions until regime change in Russian or reversal of annexation of Crimea.
2) Recognize the annexation (and quietly force/bribe Ukraine to do so as well).
3) Keep face-saving toothless sanctions and let the situation in limbo for years.

IMHO, 1 is better than 2 and 2 is better than 3, but I am afraid that Obama+EU will go for 3 to keep pretence of doing something, and let the next set of elected politicians to sort out the mess. May I suggest to revoke Obama's Nobel unless he sorts one of the international conflicts (of his choosing) while in office?

[mrswdk]

3 will happen.

[saxitoxin]

Russia's media is less free, because as I pointed out their government imprisons, detains, and assassinates reporters.

You also pointed out that Russia has a 99% conviction rate. When it was observed that the U.S. has a 93% and Japan a 99%+ you just moved on to this newest fantasy without even a moment of shame or embarrassment.

Here's the problem: you spend 10-15 minutes getting your brain blasted to kingdom come by the Fox News' and NPRs of the world (as Max Blumenthal explained) and then come charging over here to repeat what you heard to us without applying an ounce of critical thinking. Everything in all your posts can be easily dismissed like your "99%" stat, but what's the point? When someone gently offers correction for your many serious cognitive errors you just start screaming like a mad man. You don't stop to reflect on why you were misled with your 99% statistic, nor stop to think about working to improve your own comprehension skills so that you can engage in meaningful dialog instead of just ranting and raving.

Maybe your goal is to be perceived as the village loon? Or the ugly American? Either way your increasingly bizarre mannerisms are kinda sidelining your relevance. The other person on the pro-war side here, Dukasaur, speaks sanely and intelligibly and his opinions - though wrong - are taken seriously. But anyway, you know, whatever.

[GoranZ]

From what I see majority of Crimean population is quite happy as part of Russia, so no one is terrorizing them.

Key part highlighted.

Well that's what even western media are showing. No major reports that someone is repressed in Crimea by the Russian government. But if you see something else that's your problem which doesn't concern me

Russians also doesn't hate the Ukrainians(or opposite).

It is true that Russians dont hate Ukrainians. On the opposite, there is a sizeable minority of Ukrainians who hate Russians. I guess it is a side-effect of years of fraternal assistance.

Yes there is some minority of Ukrainians that dont like Russians but that's changing according to the propaganda from the media or the politicians. Regardless of those influences they are still minority.

3) Keep face-saving toothless sanctions and let the situation in limbo for years.

I think that this will happen but this will not make large damage to Russian economy on short to medium term... But the trade with Ukraine might do much bigger damage. Disruption in Ukraine-Russia trade and with that Russia-EU gas trade could generate serious economic problems for Ukraine, Russia and EU. I think exactly this is whats Putin and good part of EU politicians are afraid of, Ukrainian politicians dont look that far into the future, anyway they dont know if they are expandable.

Russia's media is less free, because as I pointed out their government imprisons, detains, and assassinates reporters.

You also pointed out that Russia has a 99% conviction rate. When it was observed that the U.S. has a 93% and Japan a 99%+ you just moved on to this newest fantasy without even a moment of shame or embarrassment.

Here's the problem: you spend 10-15 minutes getting your brain blasted by the Fox News' and NPRs of the world (as Max Blumenthal explained) and you then come charging over here to repeat what you heard to us without applying even an ounce of critical thinking. Everything said in all your posts can be easily dismissed like your "99%" stat, but what's the point? When someone gently offers correction for your various comprehension errors you just start screaming like a mad man. You don't stop to reflect on why you were misled with your 99% statistic, nor do you stop to think about possibly working to improve your own cognitive skills so that you can engage in meaningful dialog instead of just ranting and raving.

Maybe your goal is to be perceived as the village loon? Or the ugly American? I dunno. Whatever.

Wasting your time with him, he already posted quadrillion false informations and surprisingly never looked even to check the responses about his false data. Maybe he is living in his own reality(weed or something )

[saxitoxin]

Russia's media is less free, because as I pointed out their government imprisons, detains, and assassinates reporters.

You also pointed out that Russia has a 99% conviction rate. When it was observed that the U.S. has a 93% and Japan a 99%+ you just moved on to this newest fantasy without even a moment of shame or embarrassment.

Here's the problem: you spend 10-15 minutes getting your brain blasted by the Fox News' and NPRs of the world (as Max Blumenthal explained) and you then come charging over here to repeat what you heard to us without applying even an ounce of critical thinking. Everything said in all your posts can be easily dismissed like your "99%" stat, but what's the point? When someone gently offers correction for your various comprehension errors you just start screaming like a mad man. You don't stop to reflect on why you were misled with your 99% statistic, nor do you stop to think about possibly working to improve your own cognitive skills so that you can engage in meaningful dialog instead of just ranting and raving.

Maybe your goal is to be perceived as the village loon? Or the ugly American?

Wasting your time with him, he already posted quadrillion false informations and surprisingly never looked even to check the responses about his false data. Maybe he is living in his own reality(weed or something )

LOL, could be; he's mostly irrelevant due to his craziness, but it is still a little distracting when he suddenly takes a 10-day interest in some issue other people - like yourself or Joan - have been attentive to for years and shows up in page 25 of these threads to start ranting ... eventually he either just chases everyone away like in the Syria thread or he'll lose interest and move on to the next thing that's making headlines - the daytime Emmy awards, or Kony, or Freedom Fries, or whatever

[Qwert]

Russia provoked a war, violated international law, and literally activated paramilitary groups and sent them into the Ukraine to terrorize their population.

Wow, if you change first word Russia with US, then you will get pretty much what US done in last 15-20 years all over the world.
I even think that for last 50 years US lead in score against SSSR-Russia with violation of international law, and Russia will need to violate at least 10-15 times more to catch up US.

[notyou2]

Crimea belongs to the Greeks and should be given back.

[thegreekdog]

Crimea belongs to the Greeks and should be given back.

+250 Saxbucks.

[AndyDufresne]

Crimea belongs to the Greeks and should be given back.

+250 Saxbucks.

This is true. In Europa Unviersalis 4, I was the Byzantine Empire, and our primary accepted culture was Greek, and I owned Crimea for quite a while before Russians started to bully and invade my northern territory.


--Andy

[Qwert]

Crimea belongs to the Greeks and should be given back.

+250 Saxbucks.

This is true. In Europa Unviersalis 4, I was the Byzantine Empire, and our primary accepted culture was Greek, and I owned Crimea for quite a while before Russians started to bully and invade my northern territory.


--Andy

America belong to Native Americans---Give independence to Indians People

[notyou2]

Crimea belongs to the Greeks and should be given back.

+250 Saxbucks.

This is true. In Europa Unviersalis 4, I was the Byzantine Empire, and our primary accepted culture was Greek, and I owned Crimea for quite a while before Russians started to bully and invade my northern territory.


--Andy

America belong to Native Americans---Give independence to Indians People

They have their independence. They are not taxed, they have extensive land holdings, they can hunt whenever they want, they can roam freely across the Canada-US border. No other citizens have the rights they do.

[GoranZ]

Crimea belongs to the Greeks and should be given back.

Zeus is angry, apparently there was no recent celebration in his name so he permanently gave Crimea to the Russians as punishment

In Europa Unviersalis 4, I was the Byzantine Empire, and our primary accepted culture was Greek, and I owned Crimea for quite a while before Russians started to bully and invade my northern territory.

Its about time for you to resign, It wont end up good for you... Probably Arabs already cut large part of your empire and Turks are sharping their swords to finish you off
Luckily for you Russians only scratch you

[notyou2]

Crimea belongs to the Greeks and should be given back.

Zeus is angry, apparently there was no recent celebration in his name so he permanently gave Crimea to the Russians as punishment

I said this because you said earlier that the Crimea is Russian. The Crimea is as Russian as Poland. There are lots of Russians living there, as I bet there are in Poland too.

If living there first dictates nationality, then near as I can discern, the Greeks were in the Crimea first.

[thegreekdog]

Crimea belongs to the Greeks and should be given back.

Zeus is angry, apparently there was no recent celebration in his name so he permanently gave Crimea to the Russians as punishment

I said this because you said earlier that the Crimea is Russian. The Crimea is as Russian as Poland. There are lots of Russians living there, as I bet there are in Poland too.

If living there first dictates nationality, then near as I can discern, the Greeks were in the Crimea first.

+100 Saxbucks

[Qwert]

brake of international law(after 1945)(no approval of UN)

US
1965-Ocupation of Dominican Republic
1956-Vietnam War
1961-Cuba attack
1964-laos bombardment
1983-Granada Invasion
1986-bombing of libya
1989-Panama Invasion
1992-Iraq no fly zone
1998-Bombing of Afghanistan and Sudan
1999-SR Yugoslavia bombardment
2001-Ocupation of Afghanistan
2003-Ocupation of Iraq
2011-LIbya bombardment (violation of Un resolution 1973)


SSSR
1956-Hungary
1968-CSSR invasion
1979-Afghanistan occupation

Russia
2008-Georgia
2014-Ukraine

according on this US lead 13-5 against USSR/Russia in brake of international law. If i miss something please help to fill a list.