The Werewolves of Miller's Hollow Wolves win

[Charle]

Speaking of DDS, the two anonymous votes against him remain unexplained, even though they do closely fit the M.O. of the Scandalmonger.
Unless the wolves were given the power of the Scandalmonger (unlikely, and totally unlike in the W.O.M.H. source material) this must have come from Town (or maybe some annoying Third Party). Is the Scandalmonger, another role like the Barkeep, that is a Town role that is prone to screwing Town up?

According to the WOMH Pact we received, on pages 16 and 19 it mentions that the Scandalmonger is definitely a character specific to the village. I don't think the wolves would have been given this power. This means it is a power specific to town, not that it really do much, but to get the full advantage out of it, we might as well use it to get a claim out of DDS to ensure that our sheriff is not a wolf.

Vote DDS

Yes, according to the rulebook only the scandalmonger (likely townish) can make the mod post this. I think DDS voted me because he thinks im the scandalmonger but im not.

And the dive was scummy but by now a lot more happened that is at least equally scummy?

I also liked DDS view on the Max drive by shooting plan.

And speaking of MAD HOUSE..

I wanna hear Fusi, Ragian, Deg and EW on the following mad house scenario:

Wolves Strike, Vot and 1 or 2 unknown wolfies make up this brilliant plan:

Vot steers the first confession on Strike (he did, his post before confessing Strike had "not the highest priority" remark on everybody. And By sacrificing Strike Vot got instant "confirmed town status".

Then on D2 Wolf Vot would choose whoever the wolves think is the most likely cop to confess (EW)...
.. while the next move in the mastermind plan is getting the seer to come forward (the only one who could unmask Vot) just to kill 3P loose? Loose is also the only player with Wolf immunity..

If Loose is so important Vot should have chosen him to confess?

Interesting points and very possible. Well, Vot's public role is now over, we might as well just use our barber on him and we will know for sure.

[Ragian]

my thoughts on that already surfaced, and it's a situation we can solve on day 6 or so if it arises. Votanic is town until it becomes impossible to understand why he is alive.

Precisemént.

Interesting points and very possible. Well, Vot's public role is now over, we might as well just use our barber on him and we will know for sure.

What?! Why? We must assume that Vot is town right now. It is a very elaborate plan to have, sacrifising your best wolf in order to gain town cred. I just don't buy it. Eventually, however, and as EW points out, the wolves want to get rid of him because he is a proven townie, so if we are left with two players and Vot, the one wolf left is at a disadvantage. In such a case, you'd prefer three uncleared to create most possible confusion.

It makes absolutely zero sense to off Vot now because it's too difficult to put in the work to weed out the wolves. Vot is also an asset in that he can dig into people more because he has nothing to lose even if he dies and town wins.

[Ragian]

Occam's razor and a KISS approach is preferable most of the time.

[*Pixar*]

my thoughts on that already surfaced, and it's a situation we can solve on day 6 or so if it arises. Votanic is town until it becomes impossible to understand why he is alive.

Precisemént.

Interesting points and very possible. Well, Vot's public role is now over, we might as well just use our barber on him and we will know for sure.

What?! Why? We must assume that Vot is town right now. It is a very elaborate plan to have, sacrifising your best wolf in order to gain town cred. I just don't buy it. Eventually, however, and as EW points out, the wolves want to get rid of him because he is a proven townie, so if we are left with two players and Vot, the one wolf left is at a disadvantage. In such a case, you'd prefer three uncleared to create most possible confusion.

It makes absolutely zero sense to off Vot now because it's too difficult to put in the work to weed out the wolves. Vot is also an asset in that he can dig into people more because he has nothing to lose even if he dies and town wins.

Agree with Ragian here. FOS Charle, no way Vot would sacrifice strike just to gain town credit.

[Ewebasher]

Interesting points and very possible. Well, Vot's public role is now over, we might as well just use our barber on him and we will know for sure.

Not convinced by this logic... IMHO Vot is more likely to be Town than not, in which case we lose Swang and Vot in one blow (and that's before a possible lynching/kill)

If Vot is scum I guess there is the scenario that scum did not know scum before N1 in which case he got an unpleasant surprise when he get the confession from strike. But in that case why not just claim the confession was Town - it may have come back to bite him (pun intended) later in the game but in the short term having strike 'cleared' would surely have been more of an advantage to the scum than outing him and (I presume) losing his power...

[*Pixar*]

I like to consider myself a somewhat normal mafia player, but I don't think I've ever played in a game where scum doesn't know other scum, am I wrong? Being a werewolf game and based on some shows I've seen werewolves usually meet/travel in packs. Therefore, I believe the werewolves do know each other. That's why I'm calling votanic's action not a mistake and giving him more town credit than wolf.

[DirtyDishSoap]

Wtf is with people in having our Barber kill someone and getting himself killed? Did no one read how his role works?

[Charle]

Ok, ok, you guys are right, stupid suggestion to get rid of Vot at the moment. I think if we do not use our barber, the wolves will eat him tonight unless he can be saved, which is very important.

[degaston]

Dega, What do you think about the modified LC test plan?

It seems okay to me. I don't have a better target at this point.
I was pretty busy yesterday and have some catching up to do. Is anyone against that plan?

IGMEOY Charle, for suggesting we kill Vot

[Maxleod]

Ok, ok, you guys are right, stupid suggestion to get rid of Vot at the moment. I think if we do not use our barber, the wolves will eat him tonight unless he can be saved, which is very important.

Very good point Charle, I forgot to add add that. If the Barber is Town the Wolves will eat him tonight, we have to use this power now, I know there might still be hidden roles wit the power to kill the Barber but we need to make sure we don't have an unlynchable Wolf. Benefits/Risks. Even if both Loose and Swang turn out to be Town, it would be an acceptable loss. Remember Papa Wolf died Day 1. If he hadn't, by Day 3 we'd be with two Townies converted, minus 2 townies, plus 2 wolves. We'll still have the upper hand.

Vote Swang

(To put pressure on him, of course when he hopefully turns out to be Town, I'll unvote)

[SoN!c]

Ok, ok, you guys are right, stupid suggestion to get rid of Vot at the moment. I think if we do not use our barber, the wolves will eat him tonight unless he can be saved, which is very important.

...

(To put pressure on him, of course when he hopefully turns out to be Town, I'll unvote)

Pressure him today to vig Loose tomorrow?

I had the idea this was the game plan?:

Tonight:
The Defender(whoever that is) will protect Swang the Butcher from a Wolf Attack
The Seer (whoever that is) will check on the alignment/role of LC the Barkeep
Tomorrow
• If the Seer finds LC is Town, the Seer will say nothing and we will proceed to treat LC as Town (unless other evidence emerges)
• If the Seer finds LC is a Wolf, the Seer will let Town know even if that means blowing his cover (worth it to get a wolf, especially an unlynchable wolf).

So this plan.., i like it but im thinking the seer and the little girl could be a combined role? If that is the case the wolves can have a tracker power of some sort to catch the little girl (the seer)? - afterall in the game the little girl is the town spy on the wolves but she can be caught.. in which case she dies instead of the intended wolf target.

So this could be a suicide mission for the seer?. I mean the stealth part is blown.. It's like saying to german ww2 flak the RAF 617th (the dambusters) are coming 6 weeks in advance?

@loose: can you soft claim? Are you the devoted servant?

[SoN!c]

....and based on some shows I've seen werewolves usually meet/travel in packs.

"Werewolves meet and travel in packs"? You've seen this on National Geographic or on Discovery channel?

[TrafalgarLaw01]

Vote Count:
DirtyDishSoap - 3 Votes - (Anonymus), Charle
Pixar - 1 Vote - Loose Canon
Sonic - 3 Votes - DirtyDishSoap, Votanic
Devante - 1 Vote - Swang
Swang - 1 Vote - Maxleod

End of the Day will be 23th of January at 18:00pm CC time

[*Pixar*]

....and based on some shows I've seen werewolves usually meet/travel in packs.

"Werewolves meet and travel in packs"? You've seen this on National Geographic or on Discovery channel?

A couple supernatural episodes to be exact

[degaston]

Remember Papa Wolf died Day 1. If he hadn't, by Day 3 we'd be with two Townies converted, minus 2 townies, plus 2 wolves. We'll still have the upper hand.

Doesn't really matter now, but the Accursed Wolf-father only has a one-shot conversion, so this is not accurate.

[degaston]

So this plan.., i like it but im thinking the seer and the little girl could be a combined role? If that is the case the wolves can have a tracker power of some sort to catch the little girl (the seer)? - afterall in the game the little girl is the town spy on the wolves but she can be caught.. in which case she dies instead of the intended wolf target.

So far we've had two roles shown, and they appear to be straight from the game document. I don't think we should waste much time speculating on new or combined roles until we see some evidence of that.

[swang918]

Very good point Charle, I forgot to add add that. If the Barber is Town the Wolves will eat him tonight, we have to use this power now, I know there might still be hidden roles wit the power to kill the Barber but we need to make sure we don't have an unlynchable Wolf. Benefits/Risks. Even if both Loose and Swang turn out to be Town, it would be an acceptable loss. Remember Papa Wolf died Day 1. If he hadn't, by Day 3 we'd be with two Townies converted, minus 2 townies, plus 2 wolves. We'll still have the upper hand.

Vote Swang

(To put pressure on him, of course when he hopefully turns out to be Town, I'll unvote)

Loose is not unkillable even if I die and theres no night vig. He has to vote early each day so town can just lynch whoever he votes for, then he’ll lose the immunity. It does mean that it would take at least 2 days to lynch Loose, so this could be important if we get deep into the game and Loose is still alive.
At this point tho Id rather have some additional evidence against Loose before razoring him.

[DirtyDishSoap]

Thank you! A man of reason! No one should remotely be tickling this ridiculous plan based on inaccurate and bad faith arguments.

[Maxleod]

Very good point Charle, I forgot to add add that. If the Barber is Town the Wolves will eat him tonight, we have to use this power now, I know there might still be hidden roles wit the power to kill the Barber but we need to make sure we don't have an unlynchable Wolf. Benefits/Risks. Even if both Loose and Swang turn out to be Town, it would be an acceptable loss. Remember Papa Wolf died Day 1. If he hadn't, by Day 3 we'd be with two Townies converted, minus 2 townies, plus 2 wolves. We'll still have the upper hand.

Vote Swang

(To put pressure on him, of course when he hopefully turns out to be Town, I'll unvote)

Maybe, but we don't know that for sure. And it doesn't change a thing, assuming you're Town, you're the most likely target for the Wolves tonight, you might as well use your power now, while you still can.

Loose is not unkillable even if I die and theres no night vig. He has to vote early each day so town can just lynch whoever he votes for, then he’ll lose the immunity. It does mean that it would take at least 2 days to lynch Loose, so this could be important if we get deep into the game and Loose is still alive.
At this point tho Id rather have some additional evidence against Loose before razoring him.

[Maxleod]

Loose is not unkillable even if I die and theres no night vig. He has to vote early each day so town can just lynch whoever he votes for, then he’ll lose the immunity. It does mean that it would take at least 2 days to lynch Loose, so this could be important if we get deep into the game and Loose is still alive.
At this point tho Id rather have some additional evidence against Loose before razoring him.

Wedon't know that for sure. And assuming you're Town you're the most likely target for the Wolves tonight. You might as well use your power now, while you still can.

[degaston]

Vote Count:
DirtyDishSoap - 3 Votes - (Anonymus), Charle
Pixar - 1 Vote - Loose Canon
Sonic - 3 Votes - DirtyDishSoap, Votanic
Devante - 1 Vote - Swang
Swang - 1 Vote - Maxleod

End of the Day will be 23th of January at 18:00pm CC time

Looks like the town needs to come together somehow.

Unless things turn weird, I'm assuming that Vot is town, and therefore also EW.

We can wait until tomorrow to see if we can trust LC (assuming we have a seer who goes along with the plan), and I don't see a reason to lynch our Lord yet.

I'd be inclined to vote with the Sheriff and confessor, but then I looked at why DDS and Vot are on Sonic...
DDS voted for him right after my joke vote/unvote with the comment "Eh why not."
Vot went for him based on a DDS post, and maybe some bad history. "God knows he deserves it."
I don't think either of these is much of a case against Sonic. (I can't believe I'm even saying this )

So for me, I'm somewhat suspicious of Charle for suggesting we vig Vot, but I think Max has racked up the most scummy points in my book:

• his plan to vig LC and maybe lose both our Barkeep and our Barber.
• his reasoning that the Bailiff was killed because the wolves already have all the public roles.
• his trying to draw suspicion towards me based on my supposed lack of participation.
• that he wants to lynch our Barber.
• his incorrect analysis of the Wolf Father.
• his praise of Charle after he walked back his kill Vot idea.

I don't like trying to start a new bandwagon at this point, but...
Vote Maxleod

EW, If you prefer someone else, make your case and I might be able to join you.

[Votanic]

Another Wise Sermon, both Benefient and Reasonable
By St. Votanic the Town-Confessor.

A lot to unpack here.
(...and I'm also worried that Ergot-infected rye may have poisoned the better judgement of several of our townizens.)

First of all, let me once again address this zany-dumb idea that I am a werewolf. And why am I so suspected? Because I exposed and led the lynching of the most powerful werewolf in the game, and this before he could even use his vile special power...
This is so stupid it practically drools... So, perhaps unsurprisingly, Sonic is now trying to even get me vigged.
Sidenote: No more of this 'Sonic is getting better' BS. This is full-blown Sonic at his worst.
So, if Charle deserves one FOS for agreeing to this plan, then how many does Sonic deserve for originally spouting this mad nonsense.

@Dega: THis should better explain why I'm voting Sonic for a lynch. He is never good for Town, even when he is Town, and there is no guarantee that is even the case. But you already know this...
Last game I happened to actually be scum, and even then I was aghast at how Sonic was just left to slip by without even a Blood Test for so long...

@ Swang and DDS: At this point, I'm mostly okay with you both being sceptical about the testing of LC the Barkeep.
But tomorrow, if the seer proclaims LC to be wolf, I don't want to hear anymore griping, because then it will be super-scummy.

@Swang: The Barber role is clearly a game design element largely created to counter the unlynchability of the Barkeep.
If you are Town and LC is a Wolf this is you basic prime-directive Town duty.

@ the seer and the defender (whomever you are): I've made a good plan and then tossed that note-in-a-bottle into the sea in hopes that you will find it, read it, understand it, and agree to its wisdom. There are wolves (and misguided townies) out there trying to shoot it down... So all I can do is wait and see. There is a good chance that we won't be told anything tomorrow either.
Hopefully we'll at least find out during the post-game explanations...
@Seer specifically: The idea of exposing your identity might seem alarming, especially if you are a new player, but claiming at the right time to convince Town of the truth is an important part of your role. The knowledge you gain is worthless if Town fails to act on it.

Outside of investigative roles, like Seer or Confessor, this game is largely just calculated guessing.
As for scum-reads, they are mostly fails. Clueless/Bad townies get read more often than scum.
Having said that, I will also say there is a major distinction between just getting 'scummy vibes' and actually identifying suspiciously bad play (Sonic, Maxleod, EW (Yes, even though he is town)).

The decisions we make now will greatly effect Town late in the game.
There are still three public roles that could screw up town late in the game, if they are held by wolves:
1. Barkeep (an almost unkillable wolf, especially if/when we lose Swang...)
2. Lord (Wrecking a day's lynch late in the game, could totally flip the game's outcome)
3. Sheriff (We might be able to catch this early if DDS's voting record causes suspicion)
All three of these roles need checking by the Seer, probably in the order listed.

Of course the School Marm would have been the worse public role for a wolf...

[swang918]

If by testing LC you mean directing the seer to investigate LC, then I can get behind that idea. My objection was to razoring Loose just based in what we have now.

[DirtyDishSoap]

^ This.

I'll follow Dega on this point since Max has been by a large margin, the scummiest. Between arguments of bad faith, leaving out important details or just outright getting everything wrong, it's hard to defend a guy like that.

So Vote Max

[degaston]

@Dega: THis should better explain why I'm voting Sonic for a lynch. He is never good for Town, even when he is Town, and there is no guarantee that is even the case. But you already know this...
Last game I happened to actually be scum, and even then I was aghast at how Sonic was just left to slip by without even a Blood Test for so long...

I agree that his wild speculations are not good for town, so I'm willing to switch to Sonic if EW prefers him over Max. I'm just going with my gut right now and thought I should make my case against Max as I see it, in case I don't survive the night.

Do you have any opinion on Max?