New York Massacre

[joecoolfrog]

Holland is a very pacifist nation. It's hard to motivate the Dutch to do anything other than to pursue pleasure in my experience, and I know this first hand because of my family there.

Actually, that's one of the most ignorant statements ever and it shows that even with your family you don't know the first thing about this county. We're pacifist because we have figured that being so small we might as well be better traders. We're pretty fucking rich for a country with only 16 million people and almost no natural resources.

As a direct result of this pacifism Holland has been conquered and divided many times over and millions of their people died as recently as the 40's as a result.

You got such a great knowledge of history. Seriously, it is awesome how you know so much. I wish I had learned about all the many times my country had been divided or conquered. And learned about the millions of "our" people who died in the '40s. (If you are referring to jews, it's just because we were far more friendly to nazi-thought since we loved the germans.)

I would love to see your explanation of history.

Admit it Snorri you lot are just a bunch of idle layabouts with neither the wit or courage to leave your windmills let alone colonise parts of Asia,South Africa, East / West Indies or some dodgy place on the Hudson river you named New Amsterdam.
Closer to home its a shame that William of Orange was such a big girlie that he sat at home eating apple pie rather than give France and England a good kicking.....shame on him

[Snorri1234]

The main problem i see in this country as far as gun violence is concerned, is not guns, but a marked failure on the part of the justice system to properly punish those who use them illegally. WTF is with paroling someone who has murdered someone? I have a friend who spent 3 years for armed robbery, and another who did 5 for smoking (not dealing) crack. Go figure.

True. I think it does have something to do with owning guns though, in that owning guns has become so natural that using them for illegal shit has also become natural. The right to own a firearm has become too much like the right to free speech.


Over here owning a gun illegally is pretty harshly punished because it's clear it is intended for illegal shit. If you want a gun for legal purposes (hunting or defense) you should have no objection to it taking time and money, so the only reason to do it illegally is if you intend to use it for illegal shit. So that shows very clear intent to commit a crime, and I think that should be very heavily punished.


Not only that, there should also be some very heavy crack-down on illegal firearms. A supervision of what gunmakers do with their guns. You can't respond to illegal firearms by arming more people with legal ones, that's reactionary bullshit and escalates the situation.

[Snorri1234]

Holland is a very pacifist nation. It's hard to motivate the Dutch to do anything other than to pursue pleasure in my experience, and I know this first hand because of my family there.

Actually, that's one of the most ignorant statements ever and it shows that even with your family you don't know the first thing about this county. We're pacifist because we have figured that being so small we might as well be better traders. We're pretty fucking rich for a country with only 16 million people and almost no natural resources.

As a direct result of this pacifism Holland has been conquered and divided many times over and millions of their people died as recently as the 40's as a result.

You got such a great knowledge of history. Seriously, it is awesome how you know so much. I wish I had learned about all the many times my country had been divided or conquered. And learned about the millions of "our" people who died in the '40s. (If you are referring to jews, it's just because we were far more friendly to nazi-thought since we loved the germans.)

I would love to see your explanation of history.

Admit it Snorri you lot are just a bunch of idle layabouts with neither the wit or courage to leave your windmills let alone colonise parts of Asia,South Africa, East / West Indies or some dodgy place on the Hudson river you named New Amsterdam.
Closer to home its a shame that William of Orange was such a big girlie that he sat at home eating apple pie rather than give France and England a good kicking.....shame on him

You're right. We were too busy pursueing pleasure to bother with conquering and colonising a very large part of the world when the Americans were busy killing eachother. None of us had the balls to become King of England.

[Simon Viavant]

Another problem is that a hunting rifle isn't good enough for home defense, if you really want to by secure you need an AK-47.

[Juan_Bottom]

Another problem is that a hunting rifle isn't good enough for home defense, if you really want to by secure you need an AK-47.

Not according to that communist Obama. All versions of the AK are going to be illegal to purchase. Pretty soon we are going to be stuck defending our rights with crossbows.

Actually I shouldn't joke because that does make me sad.

[b.k. barunt]

Another problem is that a hunting rifle isn't good enough for home defense, if you really want to by secure you need an AK-47.

If you're not a good enough shot to defend your home with a hunting rifle, you damn sure shouldn't be trusted with an AK47.


Honibaz

[captain.crazy]

Another problem is that a hunting rifle isn't good enough for home defense, if you really want to by secure you need an AK-47.

by far, the best weapon for home defense is a 12 gauge. Hunting rifles are better for open warfare engagements needing sniper capabilities or for hunting. Not much else.

[b.k. barunt]

A twelve guage is the best if the intruder is in the same room, but a 44 Marlin will take him out 4 or 5 rooms away. Of course since i can't see exactly where he is, i'll have to fire 4 or 5 rounds, thus endangering surrounding neighbors, but whatthehell? Collateral damages sometimes are unavoidable.


Honbaz

[2dimes]

After you accidentally shoot your gator neighbors do you eat them?

[The Neon Peon]

A twelve guage is the best if the intruder is in the same room, but a 44 Marlin will take him out 4 or 5 rooms away. Of course since i can't see exactly where he is, i'll have to fire 4 or 5 rounds, thus endangering surrounding neighbors, but whatthehell? Collateral damages sometimes are unavoidable.


Honbaz

That attitude is why other countries hate America. (which they do)

"Let's go take out Saddam Hussein, but NO! We won't just send a few assassins... we have to send a huge army and we have to invade the country, and we have to reform their government to be more like ours too. Collateral damages are unavoidable, sometimes, you just have to send a big army to do a one man's job."

[2dimes]

A twelve guage is the best if the intruder is in the same room, but a 44 Marlin will take him out 4 or 5 rooms away. Of course since i can't see exactly where he is, i'll have to fire 4 or 5 rounds, thus endangering surrounding neighbors, but whatthehell? Collateral damages sometimes are unavoidable.


Honbaz

That attitude is why other countries hate America. (which they do)

"Let's go take out Saddam Hussein, but NO! We won't just send a few assassins... we have to send a huge army and we have to invade the country, and we have to reform their government to be more like ours too. Collateral damages are unavoidable, sometimes, you just have to send a big army to do a one man's job."

If everyone on your block was an American wouldn't you want to be armed?

[Falkomagno]

I think that the single idea of kill somebody it's frightening...no matter if you have a right to buy a gun or not.....something is wrong with you as a nation...because that killing spreads seems to me as a mental disease...as a social degeneration....there is no single reason to kill anybody...no matter if you lost your job, if you've been stolen, no matter what...always the life have to be preserved....it's antisocial behavior...so sad for the mankind

[PLAYER57832]

My thoughts and prayers are with all of the family's who lost loved ones, and to the community as a whole. I have no doubt that it will be a very trying time for a very large number of people. The same goes for the city of Pittsburgh, who lost 3 officers, and the family's of the officers who died serving their community.

It really doesn't suprise me that it only took the first reply for this to turn into a gun debate. There are dozens of other posts, with statistics and such for that. It is sad that not one of the posts in this thread even seemed to realise that more than a dozen people lost their lifes, or at least had any compassion in it, that goes for both sides.

[captain.crazy]

The very essence of a gun, the reason why they are made, is to provide security. More guns in the hands of more people is infinitely more secure for the general population than only having guns in the hands of a few men with unknown intention and motivation.

The statistics and facts back the pro gun argument. Those who do not understand these things are choosing to ignore readily available facts.

... Gabon, even as a Libertarian (so defined by that political test in other thread), I must disagree with the extent of your statement.

... Too many Americans are completely selfish bastards with very short tempers and a penchant for violence. Take for example a brawl I witnessed a few months back that resulted from some guy with his girlfriend (?) pulling out onto the street in front of another car. The second car pursued the couple to the red light, it's driver leapt out of the vehicle, as did the other ... violence ensued.

... What if these assholes had guns?

... Now, as for the carry permits, I am 100% for carry permits after rigid testing and training, but "More guns in the hands of more people is infinitely more secure for the general population" ... No way.

...

Isn't Switzerland a pretty safe place? I heard that all citizens there are required to keep arms and a healthy big stock of ammunition. But lets be honest. If even one person in there had been armed, provided that they were not hot first, the impact of this would have been much diminished.

[Snorri1234]

Isn't Switzerland a pretty safe place? I heard that all citizens there are required to keep arms and a healthy big stock of ammunition.

They are also required to enroll in the military. And they don't have any of the problems most other nations experience. (Like big cities, ethnic tension and basically all the problems any modern nation has. With them it works because they're basically completely small-town where everybody knows eachother.)

[The Neon Peon]

Isn't Switzerland a pretty safe place? I heard that all citizens there are required to keep arms and a healthy big stock of ammunition. But lets be honest. If even one person in there had been armed, provided that they were not hot first, the impact of this would have been much diminished.

Now, two scenes: guns are legal everywhere, and everyone can have them, and guns are completely illegal and can't even be imported, they can only be owned by the police.

A person gets really angry and wants to kill someone.

First scene: the person has a gun and is therefore capable of killing someone with a pull of a trigger, then calm down and regret it late.
Second scene: the person does not have a gun and is therefore limited in his methods of killing the person. Also less chance they can kill them since most other methods require physical strength. (50% chance they are weaker)

So, you say that even if guns are banned, those who really want them will get them.
1. depends on how good security is
2. you think all the people who have killed with guns would have done it if they had to manage to find some way to illegally buy them and get them past all sorts of security measures to get them? banning guns gets rid of the possibility of some of these people getting their hands on them. not all, but some is an improvement.
3. if only the people that want to kill people have guns, then they can do it far more easily
- police still have access to guns
- assume two people have guns: one wants to kill a person, and one only has one for self defense. the killer pulls out a gun. who do you think is going to shoot first? the killer would be the one to pull out the gun first, and the killer wants to shoot the person, the person does not want to shoot the killer; therefore, unless the person who wants to kill someone is really slow and dumb, he will undoubtedly shoot before the person fires in self defense
- assume guns are legal everywhere like they are in the U.S.... how often in these instances where someone has come to kill someone, does the other person have the gun with them? very rarely. you almost never hear "someone tried to kill someone, but they were armed and defended themselves"

Is any of this stuff true 100% of the time? No. But every little bit adds on. If people can't get guns, they are less likely to get guns, and people having guns does not protect them very well either way.

[PLAYER57832]

Another problem is that a hunting rifle isn't good enough for home defense, if you really want to by secure you need an AK-47.

If you're not a good enough shot to defend your home with a hunting rifle, you damn sure shouldn't be trusted with an AK47.


Honibaz

P.S. in my husband's family hunting means you better kill the thing with 1 bullet. Your first time out... you might be excused. Else... you won't be going again until you CAN shoot well enough to hit your target the first time.


However... our rifles are also kept locked up (kids). So, my defense is a phone and windows. (besides, its my husband who can shoot.. not me).

[PLAYER57832]

Isn't Switzerland a pretty safe place? I heard that all citizens there are required to keep arms and a healthy big stock of ammunition.

They are also required to enroll in the military. And they don't have any of the problems most other nations experience. (Like big cities, ethnic tension and basically all the problems any modern nation has. With them it works because they're basically completely small-town where everybody knows eachother.)

Sorry, but a big part of that peace is that they shove out anyone not Swiss. I am not sure that is an example to emulate.

[The Neon Peon]

Isn't Switzerland a pretty safe place? I heard that all citizens there are required to keep arms and a healthy big stock of ammunition.

They are also required to enroll in the military. And they don't have any of the problems most other nations experience. (Like big cities, ethnic tension and basically all the problems any modern nation has. With them it works because they're basically completely small-town where everybody knows eachother.)

Sorry, but a big part of that peace is that they shove out anyone not Swiss. I am not sure that is an example to emulate.

Are you kidding me? America should shove out every non-American here. That leaves... 1.5% of the population are native american indians...

[comic boy]

Why is it that Gabon always runs away once he has been proved wrong

[comic boy]

Isn't Switzerland a pretty safe place? I heard that all citizens there are required to keep arms and a healthy big stock of ammunition.

They are also required to enroll in the military. And they don't have any of the problems most other nations experience. (Like big cities, ethnic tension and basically all the problems any modern nation has. With them it works because they're basically completely small-town where everybody knows eachother.)

Sorry, but a big part of that peace is that they shove out anyone not Swiss. I am not sure that is an example to emulate.

Switzerland is a very poor example in any case , despite little crime and social/ethnic unrest it still has one of the worst records in Europe for homocide deaths from guns, 5 times that of England .

[b.k. barunt]

A twelve guage is the best if the intruder is in the same room, but a 44 Marlin will take him out 4 or 5 rooms away. Of course since i can't see exactly where he is, i'll have to fire 4 or 5 rounds, thus endangering surrounding neighbors, but whatthehell? Collateral damages sometimes are unavoidable.


Honbaz

That attitude is why other countries hate America. (which they do)

"Let's go take out Saddam Hussein, but NO! We won't just send a few assassins... we have to send a huge army and we have to invade the country, and we have to reform their government to be more like ours too. Collateral damages are unavoidable, sometimes, you just have to send a big army to do a one man's job."

Actually i have a sawed off 12 guage for home defense, and have never owned a 44 Marlin. I was making a joke, but you'd probably have to remove the pole from your arse to be able to see that.

And yes twodimes, i always eat what i kill (but i don't always kill what i eat).


Honibaz

[2dimes]

I had gator once. Didn't love it can't recall any detail.

[comic boy]

A twelve guage is the best if the intruder is in the same room, but a 44 Marlin will take him out 4 or 5 rooms away. Of course since i can't see exactly where he is, i'll have to fire 4 or 5 rounds, thus endangering surrounding neighbors, but whatthehell? Collateral damages sometimes are unavoidable.


Honbaz

That attitude is why other countries hate America. (which they do)

"Let's go take out Saddam Hussein, but NO! We won't just send a few assassins... we have to send a huge army and we have to invade the country, and we have to reform their government to be more like ours too. Collateral damages are unavoidable, sometimes, you just have to send a big army to do a one man's job."

Actually i have a sawed off 12 guage for home defense, and have never owned a 44 Marlin. I was making a joke, but you'd probably have to remove the pole from your arse to be able to see that.

And yes twodimes, i always eat what i kill (but i don't always kill what i eat).


Honibaz

I saw the joke straight away and was amazed that somebody bit so hard

[captain.crazy]

Isn't Switzerland a pretty safe place? I heard that all citizens there are required to keep arms and a healthy big stock of ammunition.

They are also required to enroll in the military. And they don't have any of the problems most other nations experience. (Like big cities, ethnic tension and basically all the problems any modern nation has. With them it works because they're basically completely small-town where everybody knows eachother.)

Sorry, but a big part of that peace is that they shove out anyone not Swiss. I am not sure that is an example to emulate.

Switzerland is a very poor example in any case , despite little crime and social/ethnic unrest it still has one of the worst records in Europe for homocide deaths from guns, 5 times that of England .

source?