Osama Bin Laden is not dead

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BigBallinStalin
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Re: Osama Bin Laden is not dead

Post by BigBallinStalin »

thegreekdog wrote:
crustykev wrote:If Bin Laden was posting here, he would say that attacks on Muslim States killed tens if not hundreds of thousands of Muslim civillians.
So from Bin Laden's point of view, the Twin Towers is payment in kind.


And I would counter with the following question - what attacks on Muslim states by the United States killed tens if not hundreds of thousands of Muslims?


Unless one conveniently ignores the 100s of thousands Muslim civilians killed by US Forces from the Persian Gulf War, Iraq-US War 2003, Afghani-US War 2002, and then of the two last wars, the prolonged "partisan suppression" employed by the US followed by supporting/installing the corrupt central government of Karzai and Co(mpany of Former-Warlords-Now-Turned-"Democratic"-Governors), then I guess the US never killed hundreds of thousands of Muslims.
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Re: Osama Bin Laden is not dead

Post by thegreekdog »

BigBallinStalin wrote:
thegreekdog wrote:
crustykev wrote:If Bin Laden was posting here, he would say that attacks on Muslim States killed tens if not hundreds of thousands of Muslim civillians.
So from Bin Laden's point of view, the Twin Towers is payment in kind.


And I would counter with the following question - what attacks on Muslim states by the United States killed tens if not hundreds of thousands of Muslims?


Unless one conveniently ignores the 100s of thousands Muslim civilians killed by US Forces from the Persian Gulf War, Iraq-US War 2003, Afghani-US War 2002, and then of the two last wars, the prolonged "partisan suppression" employed by the US followed by supporting/installing the corrupt central government of Karzai and Co(mpany of Former Warlords), then I guess the US never killed hundreds of thousands of Muslims.


(1) Persian Gulf War - 1991 - Iraq invades Kuwait; US defends Kuwait.
(2) Afghani-US War and Iraqi War - post-2001 - Arguably in response to September 11th.
(3) Partisan "suppression" - was this Afghanistan? Or are we mixing up the Soviets and the Americans? Also, why didn't Osama bin Laden lead an attack on Russia?
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Re: Osama Bin Laden is not dead

Post by thegreekdog »

Am I not being clear here? Some people believe that Osama bin Laden has (in his mind) justification for attacking on September 11, 2001 because the United States was engaged in killing Muslims. Before September 11, 2001, what were these "Muslim-killing" activities engaged in by the United States? What specifically was the United States doing? The only thing I've seen so far is retailatory actions for terrorists attacks on Americans. In other words, the terrorists struck the United States first and the United States struck back. Then we have the Persian Gulf War, which was not a war against Muslims, it was a war in favor of oil. The United States protected one country full of Muslims (Kuwait) against another country full of Muslims (Iraq) because the United States wanted to keep access to cheap oil from Kuwait.
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Re: Osama Bin Laden is not dead

Post by Juan_Bottom »

crustykev wrote:So from Bin Laden's point of view, the Twin Towers is payment in kind.


In 2002 Bin Laden wrote
In the Name of Allah, the Most Gracious, the Most Merciful,

"Permission to fight (against disbelievers) is given to those (believers) who are fought against, because they have been wronged and surely, Allah is Able to give them (believers) victory" [Quran 22:39]

"Those who believe, fight in the Cause of Allah, and those who disbelieve, fight in the cause of Taghut (anything worshipped other than Allah e.g. Satan). So fight you against the friends of Satan; ever feeble is indeed the plot of Satan."[Quran 4:76]

Some American writers have published articles under the title 'On what basis are we fighting?' These articles have generated a number of responses, some of which adhered to the truth and were based on Islamic Law, and others which have not. Here we wanted to outline the truth - as an explanation and warning - hoping for Allah's reward, seeking success and support from Him.

While seeking Allah's help, we form our reply based on two questions directed at the Americans:

(Q1) Why are we fighting and opposing you?
Q2)What are we calling you to, and what do we want from you?

As for the first question: Why are we fighting and opposing you? The answer is very simple:

(1) Because you attacked us and continue to attack us.

a) You attacked us in Palestine:

(i) Palestine, which has sunk under military occupation for more than 80 years. The British handed over Palestine, with your help and your support, to the Jews, who have occupied it for more than 50 years; years overflowing with oppression, tyranny, crimes, killing, expulsion, destruction and devastation. The creation and continuation of Israel is one of the greatest crimes, and you are the leaders of its criminals. And of course there is no need to explain and prove the degree of American support for Israel. The creation of Israel is a crime which must be erased. Each and every person whose hands have become polluted in the contribution towards this crime must pay its*price, and pay for it heavily.

(ii) It brings us both laughter and tears to see that you have not yet tired of repeating your fabricated lies that the Jews have a historical right to Palestine, as it was promised to them in the Torah. Anyone who disputes with them on this alleged fact is accused of anti-semitism. This is one of the most fallacious, widely-circulated fabrications in history. The people of Palestine are pure Arabs and original Semites. It is the Muslims who are the inheritors of Moses (peace be upon him) and the inheritors of the real Torah that has not been changed. Muslims believe in all of the Prophets, including Abraham, Moses, Jesus and Muhammad, peace and blessings of Allah be upon them all. If the followers of Moses have been promised a right to Palestine in the Torah, then the Muslims are the most worthy nation of this.

When the Muslims conquered Palestine and drove out the Romans, Palestine and Jerusalem returned to Islaam, the religion of all the Prophets peace be upon them. Therefore, the call to a historical right to Palestine cannot be raised against the Islamic Ummah that believes in all the Prophets of Allah (peace and blessings be upon them) - and we make no distinction between them.

(iii) The blood pouring out of Palestine must be equally revenged. You must know that the Palestinians do not cry alone; their women are not widowed alone; their sons are not orphaned alone.

(b) You attacked us in Somalia; you supported the Russian atrocities against us in Chechnya, the Indian oppression against us in Kashmir, and the Jewish aggression against us in Lebanon.

(c) Under your supervision, consent and orders, the governments of our countries which act as your agents, attack us on a daily basis;

(i) These governments prevent our people from establishing the Islamic Shariah, using violence and lies to do so.

(ii) These governments give us a taste of humiliation, and places us in a large prison of fear and subdual.

(iii) These governments steal our Ummah's wealth and sell them to you at a paltry price.

(iv) These governments have surrendered to the Jews, and handed them most of Palestine, acknowledging the existence of their state over the dismembered limbs of their own people.

(v) The removal of these governments is an obligation upon us, and a necessary step to free the Ummah, to make the Shariah the supreme law and to regain Palestine. And our fight against these governments is not separate from out fight against you.

(d) You steal our wealth and oil at paltry prices because of you international influence and military threats. This theft is indeed the biggest theft ever witnessed by mankind in the history of the world.

(e) Your forces occupy our countries; you spread your military bases throughout them; you corrupt our lands, and you besiege our sanctities, to protect the security of the Jews and to ensure the continuity of your pillage of our treasures.

(f) You have starved the Muslims of Iraq, where children die every day. It is a wonder that more than 1.5 million Iraqi children have died as a result of your sanctions, and you did not show concern. Yet when 3000 of your people died, the entire world rises and has not yet sat down.

(g) You have supported the Jews in their idea that Jerusalem is their eternal capital, and agreed to move your embassy there. With your help and under your protection, the Israelis are planning to destroy the Al-Aqsa mosque. Under the protection of your weapons, Sharon entered the Al-Aqsa mosque, to pollute it as a preparation to capture and destroy it.

(2) These tragedies and calamities are only a few examples of your oppression and aggression against us. It is commanded by our religion and intellect that the oppressed have a right to return the aggression. Do not await anything from us but Jihad, resistance and revenge. Is it in any way rational to expect that after America has attacked us for more than half a century, that we will then leave her to live in security and peace?!!

(3) You may then dispute that all the above does not justify aggression against civilians, for crimes they did not commit and offenses in which they did not partake:

(a) This argument contradicts your continuous repetition that America is the land of freedom, and its leaders in this world. Therefore, the American people are the ones who choose their government by way of their own free will; a choice which stems from their agreement to its policies. Thus the American people have chosen, consented to, and affirmed their support for the Israeli oppression of the Palestinians, the occupation and usurpation of their land, and its continuous killing, torture, punishment and expulsion of the Palestinians. The American people have the ability and choice to refuse the policies of their Government and even to change it if they want.

(b) The American people are the ones who pay the taxes which fund the planes that bomb us in Afghanistan, the tanks that strike and destroy our homes in Palestine, the armies which occupy our lands in the Arabian Gulf, and the fleets which ensure the blockade of Iraq. These tax dollars are given to Israel for it to continue to attack us and penetrate our lands. So the American people are the ones who fund the attacks against us, and they are the ones who oversee the expenditure of these monies in the way they wish, through their elected candidates.

(c) Also the American army is part of the American people. It is this very same people who are shamelessly helping the Jews fight against us.

(d) The American people are the ones who employ both their men and their women in the American Forces which attack us.

(e) This is why the American people cannot be not innocent of all the crimes committed by the Americans and Jews against us.

(f) Allah, the Almighty, legislated the permission and the option to take revenge. Thus, if we are attacked, then we have the right to attack back. Whoever has destroyed our villages and towns, then we have the right to destroy their villages and towns. Whoever has stolen our wealth, then we have the right to destroy their economy. And whoever has killed our civilians, then we have the right to kill theirs.

The American Government and press still refuses to answer the question:

Why did they attack us in New York and Washington?

If Sharon is a man of peace in the eyes of Bush, then we are also men of peace!!! America does not understand the language of manners and principles, so we are addressing it using the language it understands.

(Q2) As for the second question that we want to answer: What are we calling you to, and what do we want from you?

(1) The first thing that we are calling you to is Islam.

(a) The religion of the Unification of God; of freedom from associating partners with Him, and rejection of this; of complete love of Him, the Exalted; of complete submission to His Laws; and of the discarding of all the opinions, orders, theories and religions which contradict with the religion He sent down to His Prophet Muhammad (peace be upon him). Islam is the religion of all the prophets, and makes no distinction between them - peace be upon them all.

It is to this religion that we call you; the seal of all the previous religions. It is the religion of Unification of God, sincerity, the best of manners, righteousness, mercy, honour, purity, and piety. It is the religion of showing kindness to others, establishing justice between them, granting them their rights, and defending the oppressed and the persecuted. It is the religion of enjoining the good and forbidding the evil with the hand, tongue and heart. It is the religion of Jihad in the way of Allah so that Allah's Word and religion reign Supreme. And it is the religion of unity and agreement on the obedience to Allah, and total equality between all people, without regarding their colour, sex, or language.

(b) It is the religion whose book - the Quran - will remained preserved and unchanged, after the other Divine books and messages have been changed. The Quran is the miracle until the Day of Judgment. Allah has challenged anyone to bring a book like the Quran or even ten verses like it.

(2) The second thing we call you to, is to stop your oppression, lies, immorality and debauchery that has spread among you.

(a) We call you to be a people of manners, principles, honour, and purity; to reject the immoral acts of fornication, homosexuality, intoxicants, gambling's, and trading with interest.

We call you to all of this that you may be freed from that which you have become caught up in; that you may be freed from the deceptive lies that you are a great nation, that your leaders spread amongst you to conceal from you the despicable state to which you have reached.

(b) It is saddening to tell you that you are the worst civilization witnessed by the history of mankind:

(i) You are the nation who, rather than ruling by the Shariah of Allah in its Constitution and Laws, choose to invent your own laws as you will and desire. You separate religion from your policies, contradicting the pure nature which affirms Absolute Authority to the Lord and your Creator. You flee from the embarrassing question posed to you: How is it possible for Allah the Almighty to create His creation, grant them power over all the creatures and land, grant them all the amenities of life, and then deny them that which they are most in need of: knowledge of the laws which govern their lives?

(ii) You are the nation that permits Usury, which has been forbidden by all the religions. Yet you build your economy and investments on Usury. As a result of this, in all its different forms and guises, the Jews have taken control of your economy, through which they have then taken control of your media, and now control all aspects of your life making you their servants and achieving their aims at your expense; precisely what Benjamin Franklin warned you against.

(iii) You are a nation that permits the production, trading and usage of intoxicants. You also permit drugs, and only forbid the trade of them, even though your nation is the largest consumer of them.

(iv) You are a nation that permits acts of immorality, and you consider them to be pillars of personal freedom. You have continued to sink down this abyss from level to level until incest has spread amongst you, in the face of which neither your sense of honour nor your laws object.

Who can forget your President Clinton's immoral acts committed in the official Oval office? After that you did not even bring him to account, other than that he 'made a mistake', after which everything passed with no punishment. Is there a worse kind of event for which your name will go down in history and remembered by nations?

(v) You are a nation that permits gambling in its all forms. The companies practice this as well, resulting in the investments becoming active and the criminals becoming rich.

(vi) You are a nation that exploits women like consumer products or advertising tools calling upon customers to purchase them. You use women to serve passengers, visitors, and strangers to increase your profit margins. You then rant that you support the liberation of women.

(vii) You are a nation that practices the trade of sex in all its forms, directly and indirectly. Giant corporations and establishments are established on this, under the name of art, entertainment, tourism and freedom, and other deceptive names you attribute to it.

(viii) And because of all this, you have been described in history as a nation that spreads diseases that were unknown to man in the past. Go ahead and boast to the nations of man, that you brought them AIDS as a Satanic American Invention.

(xi) You have destroyed nature with your industrial waste and gases more than any other nation in history. Despite this, you refuse to sign the Kyoto agreement so that you can secure the profit of your greedy companies and*industries.

(x) Your law is the law of the rich and wealthy people, who hold sway in their political parties, and fund their election campaigns with their gifts. Behind them stand the Jews, who control your policies, media and economy.

(xi) That which you are singled out for in the history of mankind, is that you have used your force to destroy mankind more than any other nation in history; not to defend principles and values, but to hasten to secure your interests and profits. You who dropped a nuclear bomb on Japan, even though Japan was ready to negotiate an end to the war. How many acts of oppression, tyranny and injustice have you carried out, O callers to freedom?

(xii) Let us not forget one of your major characteristics: your duality in both manners and values; your hypocrisy in manners and principles. All*manners, principles and values have two scales: one for you and one for the others.

(a)The freedom and democracy that you call to is for yourselves and for white race only; as for the rest of the world, you impose upon them your monstrous, destructive policies and Governments, which you call the 'American friends'. Yet you prevent them from establishing democracies. When the Islamic party in Algeria wanted to practice democracy and they won the election, you unleashed your agents in the Algerian army onto them, and to attack them with tanks and guns, to imprison them and torture them - a new lesson from the 'American book of democracy'!!!

(b)Your policy on prohibiting and forcibly removing weapons of mass destruction to ensure world peace: it only applies to those countries which you do not permit to possess such weapons. As for the countries you consent to, such as Israel, then they are allowed to keep and use such weapons to defend their security. Anyone else who you suspect might be manufacturing or keeping these kinds of weapons, you call them criminals and you take military action against them.

(c)You are the last ones to respect the resolutions and policies of International Law, yet you claim to want to selectively punish anyone else who does the same. Israel has for more than 50 years been pushing UN resolutions and rules against the wall with the full support of America.

(d)As for the war criminals which you censure and form criminal courts for - you shamelessly ask that your own are granted immunity!! However, history will not forget the war crimes that you committed against the Muslims and the rest of the world; those you have killed in Japan, Afghanistan, Somalia, Lebanon and Iraq will remain a shame that you will never be able to escape. It will suffice to remind you of your latest war crimes in Afghanistan, in which densely populated innocent civilian villages were destroyed, bombs were dropped on mosques causing the roof of the mosque to come crashing down on the heads of the Muslims praying inside. You are the ones who broke the agreement with the Mujahideen when they left Qunduz, bombing them in Jangi fort, and killing more than 1,000 of your prisoners through suffocation and thirst. Allah alone knows how many people have died by torture at the hands of you and your agents. Your planes remain in the Afghan skies, looking for anyone remotely suspicious.

(e)You have claimed to be the vanguards of Human Rights, and your Ministry of Foreign affairs issues annual reports containing statistics of those countries that violate any Human Rights. However, all these things vanished when the Mujahideen hit you, and you then implemented the methods of the same documented governments that you used to curse. In America, you captured thousands the Muslims and Arabs, took them into custody with neither reason, court trial, nor even disclosing their names. You issued newer, harsher laws.

What happens in Guatanamo is a historical embarrassment to America and its values, and it screams into your faces - you hypocrites, "What is the value of your signature on any agreement or treaty?"

(3) What we call you to thirdly is to take an honest stance with yourselves - and I doubt you will do so - to discover that you are a nation without principles or manners, and that the values and principles to you are something which you merely demand from others, not that which you yourself must adhere to.

(4) We also advise you to stop supporting Israel, and to end your support of the Indians in Kashmir, the Russians against the Chechens and to also cease supporting the Manila Government against the Muslims in Southern Philippines.

(5) We also advise you to pack your luggage and get out of our lands. We desire for your goodness, guidance, and righteousness, so do not force us to send you back as cargo in coffins.

(6) Sixthly, we call upon you to end your support of the corrupt leaders in our countries. Do not interfere in our politics and method of education. Leave us alone, or else expect us in New York and Washington.

(7) We also call you to deal with us and interact with us on the basis of mutual interests and benefits, rather than the policies of sub dual, theft and occupation, and not to continue your policy of supporting the Jews because this will result in more disasters for you.

If you fail to respond to all these conditions, then prepare for fight with the Islamic Nation. The Nation of Monotheism, that puts complete trust on Allah and fears none other than Him. The Nation which is addressed by its Quran with the words: "Do you fear them? Allah has more right that you should fear Him if you are believers. Fight against them so that Allah will punish them by your hands and disgrace them and give you victory over them and heal the breasts of believing people. And remove the anger of their (believers') hearts. Allah accepts the repentance of whom He wills. Allah is All-Knowing, All-Wise." [Quran9:13-1]

The Nation of honour and respect:

"But honour, power and glory belong to Allah, and to His Messenger (Muhammad- peace be upon him) and to the believers." [Quran 63:8]

"So do not become weak (against your enemy), nor be sad, and you will be*superior ( in victory )if you are indeed (true) believers" [Quran 3:139]

The Nation of Martyrdom; the Nation that desires death more than you desire life:

"Think not of those who are killed in the way of Allah as dead. Nay, they are alive with their Lord, and they are being provided for. They rejoice in what Allah has bestowed upon them from His bounty and rejoice for the sake of those who have not yet joined them, but are left behind (not yet martyred) that on them no fear shall come, nor shall they grieve. They rejoice in a grace and a bounty from Allah, and that Allah will not waste the reward of the believers." [Quran 3:169-171]

The Nation of victory and success that Allah has promised:

"It is He Who has sent His Messenger (Muhammad peace be upon him) with guidance and the religion of truth (Islam), to make it victorious over all other religions even though the Polytheists hate it." [Quran 61:9]

"Allah has decreed that 'Verily it is I and My Messengers who shall be victorious.' Verily Allah is All-Powerful, All-Mighty." [Quran 58:21]

The Islamic Nation that was able to dismiss and destroy the previous evil Empires like yourself; the Nation that rejects your attacks, wishes to remove your evils, and is prepared to fight you. You are well aware that the Islamic Nation, from the very core of its soul, despises your haughtiness and arrogance.

If the Americans refuse to listen to our advice and the goodness, guidance and righteousness that we call them to, then be aware that you will lose this Crusade Bush began, just like the other previous Crusades in which you were humiliated by the hands of the Mujahideen, fleeing to your home in great silence and disgrace. If the Americans do not respond, then their fate will be that of the Soviets who fled from Afghanistan to deal with their military defeat, political breakup, ideological downfall, and economic bankruptcy.

This is our message to the Americans, as an answer to theirs. Do they now know why we fight them and over which form of ignorance, by the permission of Allah, we shall be victorious?



But anyway, here are his petitions in order. They all pretty much say the same thing about America.

August 23, 1996
“It is no secret to you my brothers, that the people of Islam have been afflicted with oppression, hostility, and injustice by the Judeo-Christian alliance and its supporters. This shows our enemies’ belief that Muslims’ blood is the cheapest and that their property and wealth is merely loot. Your blood has been spilt in Palestine … and the horrific image of the massacres in Quana in Lebanon are still fresh in the people’s minds.”

“And today…we work to do away with the injustice that has befallen our umma at the hands of the Judeo-Crusader alliance, especially after its occupation of Jerusalem….”

“Brother Muslims in Saudi Arabia, does it make any sense at all that our country is the biggest purchaser of weapons from America in the world and America’s biggest trading partner in the region, while at the very same time the Americans are occupying Saudi Arabia and supporting—with money, arms and manpower—their Jewish brothers in the occupation of Palestine and their murder and expulsion of Muslims there?”

“Men of the radiant future of our umma of Muhammad, raise the banner of jihad [the defensive war] up high against the Judeo-American alliance that has occupied the holy places of Islam.”



“I say to our Muslim brothers across the world: your brothers in Saudi Arabia and Palestine are calling for your help and asking you to share with them in the jihad [the defensive war] against the enemies of God, your enemies the Israelis and Americans.”


November 1996
“We are grateful to God Most Exalted in that He has facilitated jihad [the defensive war] in His cause for us, against the Israeli-American attacks on the Holy Sanctuaries of Islam.”

“Our encouragement and call to Muslims to enter jihad [the defensive war] against the Americans and the Israeli occupiers are actions which we undertake as religious obligations.”

“What can be of no doubt in this fierce Judeo-Christian campaign against the Muslim world, the likes of which have never been seen before, is that Muslims must prepare with all their might to repel the enemy in military, economic, missionary, and all other areas.”


March 1997
“We have declared jihad [the defensive war] against the US government, because the US government is unjust, criminal, and tyrannical. It has committed acts that are extremely unjust, hideous, and criminal, whether directly or through its support of the Israeli occupation of [Palestine]. And we believe the US is directly responsible for those who were killed in Palestine, Lebanon and Iraq. The mention of the US reminds us before everything else of those innocent children who were dismembered, their heads and arms cut off in the recent explosion that took place in Qana [in Lebanon]. This US government abandoned even humanitarian feelings by these hideous crimes. It transgressed all bounds and behaved in a way not witnessed before by any power or any imperialist power in the world. … Due to its subordination to the Jews, the arrogance and haughtiness of the US regime has reached such an extent that it occupied the gibla [the direction of the prayers] of the Muslims…For this and other acts of aggression and injustice, we have declared jihad [the defensive war] against the US…the US is responsible for any reaction, because it extended its war against troops to civilians…As for what you asked regarding the American people, they are not exonerated from responsibility, because they chose this government and voted for it despite their knowledge of its crimes in Palestine, Lebanon and Iraq, and in other places, and its support of client regimes who filled their prisons with our best children and scholars.”



“Today, the nation is interacting well by uniting its efforts through jihad [the defensive war] against the US, which has, in collaboration with the Israeli government, led the ferocious campaign against the Islamic world in occupying the holy sites of the Muslims.”



“The US today, as a result of this arrogance, has set a double standard, calling whoever goes against its injustice a terrorist. It wants to occupy our countries, steal our resources, install collaborators to rule us with man-made laws, and wants us to agree on all these issues. If we refuse to do so, it will say we are terrorists. With a fleeting glance at US behavior, we find that it judges the behavior of the poor Palestinian children whose country was occupied: if they throw stones against the Israeli occupation it says they are terrorists, whereas when the Israeli pilots bombed the United Nations building in Qana, Lebanon, while it was full of women and children, the US stopped any plan to condemn Israel…Wherever we look, we see the US as the leader of terrorism and crime in the world…The US does not consider it terrorism when hundreds of thousands of our sons and brothers in Iraq died for lack of food and medicine. So there is no basis for what the US says….”



“If the American government is serious about avoiding the explosions in the US, then let it stop provoking the feelings of 1.25 billion Muslims. Those hundred of thousands who have been killed or displaced in Iraq, Palestine, and Lebanon, do have brothers and relatives [who] will make Ramzi Yousef a symbol and a teacher. The US will drive them to transfer the battle into the United States. Everything is made possible to protect the blood of the American citizen while the bloodshed of Muslims is permitted everywhere. With this kind of behavior, the US government is hurting itself, hurting Muslims and hurting the American people.”



“If there is a message that I may send through you, then it is a message I address to the mothers of the American troops who came here with their military uniforms walking proudly up and down our land while the scholars of our country are thrown in prisons. I say that this represents a blatant provocation to 1.25 billion Muslims. To those mothers I say that if they are concerned for their sons, then let them object to the American government’s policy and to the American president. Do not let them be cheated by his standing before the bodies of the killed soldiers describing the freedom fighters in Saudi Arabia as terrorists. It is he who is a terrorist who pushed their sons into this for the sake of the Israeli interest…They came in support of the Israeli forces in occupied Palestine….”


December 1998
“America accuses Iraq of using poison gas against the Kurds, against its own people. It also accused Iraq of using lethal weapons against Iran; however, what people should realize is that America was not accusing Iraq at that time, but rather was supporting it through various means and agents in the region. But from the point when Iraq became a notable regional power, and even became the biggest Arab power in the region, threatening the security of Jews and Israelis who are occupying Jerusalem, America started to dig all these issues up again and to claim that it would have to hold Iraq to account….”

“It is now clear that it is Israel that is behind all these attacks on states in the Islamic world…the Jews were able to employ American and British Christians to do the job of attacking Iraq. America claims that it is bringing Iraq to account and to justice, but the fact is that the Israeli authority and the Jewish authority, which has become powerful inside the White House, as everyone can see – the Defense Minister is Jewish, the Secretary of State is Jewish, the CIA and the National Security officials are Jewish, all the biggest officials are Jews—led the Christians to clip the wings of the Islamic world. Their real target is not Saddam Hussein but the growing power of the Arab and Islamic world.”


“The infidels tell Muslims that bin Laden is threatening to kill civilians—yet what are they doing in Palestine? They’re not only killing innocents, but children as well! And America has taken over the media sphere, manipulating in different measures these enormous powers as it sees fit. Every American is our enemy, whether he fights directly or whether he pays taxes.”



“It is not acceptable in such a struggle as this that he [the Crusader] should attack and enter my land and holy sanctuaries, and plunder Muslims’ oil, and then when he encounters any resistance from Muslims, to label them terrorists. This is stupidity, or considering others stupid. We believe it is our legal duty to resist this occupation with all our might, and punish it in the same way as it punishes us.”

“How angry America gets when it attacks people and those people resist…what is wrong with resisting those who attack you? All religious communities have such a principle…This is a legal right.”


September 24, 2001
“We urge these brothers to be considered the first martyrs in the battle of Islam against the neo-Crusader-Jewish campaign led by Bush, the biggest Crusader, under the banner of the cross.”


October 7, 2001
“America has been filled with terror from north to south and from east to west, praise and blessings to God. What America is tasting today is but a fraction of what we have been tasting for decades. For over eighty years our umma has endured this humiliation and contempt. Its sons have been killed, its blood has been shed, its holy sanctuaries have been violated, all in a manner contrary to that revealed by God, without anyone listening or responding…When these men retaliated on behalf of their poor, oppressed sons, their brothers and sisters in Palestine and in many of our other lands of Islam, the whole world cried out. The infidels [the rest of the world] cried out [in protest at 9-11], and the [Muslim] hypocrites followed them.”

“Until this point, a million innocent children have been killed in Iraq, although they had done nothing wrong. But we do not hear anyone condemning this, nor do we hear any juridical decree from the official [Muslim] scholars. As I speak, Israeli tanks and bulldozers are going in and wreaking havoc and sin in Palestine – in Jenin, in Ramallah, in Rafah, in Beit Jala – and other parts of the domain of Islam, and we do not hear anyone protesting or even lifting a finger to stop it. But when after eighty years the sword comes down on America, the hypocrites rise up to lament these killers who have scorned the blood, honor and holy places of Muslims.”

“I have only a few words for America and its people: I swear by God Almighty Who raised the heavens without effort that neither America nor anyone who lives there will enjoy safety until safety becomes a reality for us living in Palestine and before all the infidel armies leave the land of Mohammad.”


October 21, 2001
“As far as concerns [America’s] description of these attacks [on the World Trade Center and the Pentagon] as terrorist acts, that description is wrong. These young men, for whom God has created a path, have shifted the battle to the heart of the United States, and they have destroyed its most outstanding landmarks, its economic and military landmarks, by the grace of God. And they have done this because of our words – and we have previously incited and roused them to action – in self-defense, defense of our brothers in Palestine, and in order to free our holy sanctuaries. And if inciting for these reasons is terrorism, and if killing those that kill our sons is terrorism, then let history witness that we are terrorists.”

“We have incited and urged the killing of Americans and Jews. That is true.”


“But I mention that there are other events that took place, bigger, greater, and more dangerous than the collapse of the towers. It is that this Western civilization, which is backed by America, has lost its value and appeal. The immense materialistic towers, which preach Freedom, Human Rights, and Equality, were destroyed. These values were revealed as a total mockery, as was made clear when the US government interfered and banned the media outlets from airing our words (which don’t exceed a few minutes), because they felt that the truth started to appear to the American people, and that we aren’t really terrorists in the way they want to define them, but rather because we are being violated in Palestine, in Iraq, in Lebanon, in Sudan, in Somalia, in Kashmir, in the Philippines, and throughout the world, and that this is a reaction from the young men of our umma against the violations of the British Government.[1] So they declared what they declared, and they ordered what they ordered, and they forgot everything they mentioned about free speech, and unbiased opinion and all those matters. So I say that freedom and human rights in America have been sent to the guillotine with no prospect of return, unless those values are quickly reinstated. The government will take the American people and the West in general into a choking life, into an unsupportable hell, because of the fact that it has very strong ties with and are under the payroll of, the Zionist lobby, which serves the needs of Israel, which kills our sons and our children without right so that it can keep on ruling with total control.”

“In light of these recent attacks and what ensued from them, Bush and Blair quickly reacted and said that now is the time to create an independent nation for Palestine. Amazing! And yet there was apparently no suitable time in the last 10 years to address this issue before the [9-11] attacks happened? They evidently won’t wisen up without the language of beatings and killings. So, as they kill us, without a doubt we have to kill them, until we obtain a balance in terror. This is the first time, in recent years, that the balance of terror has evened out between the Muslims and the Americans; previously, the Americans did to us whatever they pleased, and the victim wasn’t even allowed to complain. And then Clinton comes out and tells us that Israel has a right to defend itself, after the slaughter of Qana…And when the new President Bush came [into office] with Minister Colin Powell, they said within the first months of their rule that they would move the new US embassy from Tel Aviv to Jerusalem, and that Jerusalem would be the eternal capital of Israel, and the Congress and the Senate applauded them. They will not come to their senses until the attacks fall on their heads and, with the grace of God, until the battle has moved inside America. We will strive to maintain the fight until victory is attained or until we meet God [through martydom].”

“I say that jihad is without doubt mandatory for all Muslims, to free al-Aqsa [the mosque in Jerusalem], or to save the weak in Palestine, Lebanon, Iraq, and all Islamic lands; there is no doubt that freeing the Arabian peninsula from the polytheists is also compulsory. And concerning this talk about Osama pushing the Palestinian issue to the forefront: that is not true. The humble servant [bin Laden] made a speech in the year 1407 AH [1986] that urged Muslims to boycott American products, and I used to say that the Americans take our money and give it to the Jews, so they can kill our children with it in Palestine.”

“All of the above issues affect each other. The attack on the Americans concerning the Palestine issue helps in regard to the Saudi Arabia issue, and vice versa, as does attacking the Americans because they are considered to be a protective shield for the Jews in the areas of Tabuk [in the northern province of Saudia Arabia, close to Jordan] and the eastern regions of Saudi Arabia.”

“It is very strange for Americans and other educated people to talk about the killing of innocent civilians. I mean, who said that our children and civilians are not innocents, and that the shedding of their blood is permissible? Whenever we kill their civilians, the whole world yells at us from east to west, and America starts putting pressure on its allies and puppets. Who said that our blood is not blood and their blood is blood? What about the people who have been killed in our lands for decades? More than 1,000,000 children died in Iraq [from US and UN imposed sanctions], and they are still dying, so why do we not hear people that cry or protest, or anyone who reassures, or anyone who sends condolences? And it is said in truth by our Prophet in the authentic hadith: “A women has entered hell because of a cat she tied up without giving it food or without letting it eat from the blessings of the earth.” And that is just because of a cat, so what about the millions of Muslims that are getting killed? Where are the [comments of the] educated? Where are the writers? Where are the scholars? Where are the free? Where are the ones who have one atom of faith in their hearts? How is it that these people are moved when civilians die in America, and not when we are being killed everyday? Everyday in Palestine, children are killed. There is a great misconception in people today, which needs to be corrected by every means possible, and the numbers [who have died] need to be recalculated. There is a strong instinct in humans to lean towards the powerful without knowing it, so when they talk about us, they know we will not answer them, and if we stand in the ranks of the government and the Americans, they will think that they feel something that we don’t… A long time ago, one of the kings that ruled Arabs killed an Arab, and people became inured to the idea that kings kill humans. So the brother of the deceased went to the king and killed him. After this victory, the people were astonished and said: ‘You are able to kill a king just because of your brother?’ So who permitted the rule of that king?’ These are both equal souls, and the blood of Muslims is equal, but in those times some people’s blood was more equal than others, so that gentle man replied: ‘My brother is my king.’ And today, all our brothers in Palestine are our kings, so we kill the kings of disbelief and the kings of the Crusaders, and the civilians among the disbelievers, in response to the amount of our sons they kill: this is correct in both religion and logic.”



“And the United States has involved itself and its people again and again for more than 53 years, and recognized and supported Israel, and dispatched a general air supply line in 1393 AH [1973] during the days of Nixon, from America to Tel Aviv, with weapons, aid, and men, which affected the outcome of the battle, so how could we not fight it [America]? It is incumbent upon every Muslim to fight it. So if it wants to survive, we have offered some simple advice, but America has terrorized and it has erased its own values.”

“The Americans have made laughable claims. They said that there are hidden messages intended for terrorists in bin Laden’s statements. It is as if we are living in the time of carrier-pigeons, without the existence of telephones, without travelers, without the Internet, without regular mail, without faxes, without email. This is just farcical; words which belittle people’s intellects. We swore that America would never dream of safety, until safety becomes a reality for us living in Palestine. That has exposed the American government, and that it exists as an agent of Israel, and puts Israel’s needs before the needs of its own people. So the situation is straightforward: America won’t be able to leave this ordeal unless it pulls out of the Arabian peninsula, and it ceases its meddling in Palestine, and throughout the Islamic world. If we give this equation to any child in any American school, he would easily solve it in a second. But, according to Bush’s actions, the equation won’t be solved unless our swords fall on their heads, with the permission of God.”

“So any nation that joins the Jewish trenches has only itself to blame.”


November 3, 2001
“So the issue is one of faith and doctrine, not of a ‘war on terror,” as Bush and Blair depict it… After American politicians had spoken, and American newspapers and television channels overflowed with evident Crusader hatred in this campaign against Islam and its people, Bush left no room for the doubts or media opinion. He stated clearly that this is a Crusader war. He said this in front of the whole world so as to emphasize this fact. Those who maintain that this is war is against terrorism, what is this terrorism that they talk about at a time when people of the umma have been slaughtered for decades, in response to which we do not hear a single voice or action of resistance?”



“…and as for events in Palestine and Iraq, words cannot do them justice. More than a million children have been killed in Iraq, and the killing continues. As for what is happening these days in Palestine, may God help us. No one, not even animals, would put up with what is going on there. One of my confidants told me that he saw a butcher slaughtering a camel in front of another camel. When it saw the blood coming out of its brother it got so agitated and enraged that it bit the man’s hand and tore it right off…How can the poor mothers in Palestine bear the murder of their children at the hands of the oppressive Jewish policemen, with American support, American aeroplanes and tanks? Those who distinguish between America and Israel are true enemies of the umma.”


November 2, 2001
“The American people should remember that they pay taxes to their government and that they voted for their president. Their government makes weapons and provides them to Israel, which they use to kill Palestinian Muslims. Given that the American Congress is a committee that represents the people, the fact that it agrees with the actions of the American government proves that America in its entirety is responsible for the atrocities that it is committing against Muslims. I demand the American people to take notice of their government’s policy against Muslims. They described the government’s policy against Vietnam as wrong. They should now take the same stand that they did previously. The onus is on Americans to prevent Muslims from being killed at the hands of their government.”

“We ourselves are the victims of murder and massacres. We are only defending ourselves against the United States. This is a defensive jihad to protect our land and our people. That’s why I have said that if we don’t have security, neither will the Americans. It’s a very simple equation that any American child could understand: live and let others live.”

“The Israeli forces are occupying our land and the American forces are sitting on our territory. We no longer have any choice but jihad [the defensive war].”

“So good people are everywhere, but the pro-Jewish lobby has taken the United States and the West hostage.”

“…if the Americans have charges against us, we have a long list of charges against them.”


December 26, 2001
“History recounts that America supported everyone who waged jihad [the defensive war] and fought against Russia, but when God blessed these Arab mujahidin with going to help those poor innocent women and children in Palestine, America became angry and turned its back, betraying all those who had fought in Afghanistan.”



“Slaughtering children was something for which the head of oppression, unbelief, and hostility, Pharoh, was famous, yet the sons of Israel have done the same thing to our sons in Palestine. The whole world has witnessed Israeli soldiers killing Muhammad al-Durreh, and many others like him.”



“The events of [September 11] are merely a response to the continuous injustice inflicted upon our sons in Palestine, Iraq, Somalia, southern Sudan, and other places, like Kashmir. The matter concerns the entire umma. People need to wake up from their sleep and try to find a solution to this catastrophe that is threatening all of humanity.”



“Those who condemn these operations [ 9-11] have viewed the event in isolation and have failed to connect it to previous events or to the reasons behind it. Their view is blinkered and lacks either a legitimate or a rational basis. They merely saw others in America and the media decrying these operations, so they did the same themselves. These people remind me of the wolf who, seeing a lamb, said to it: ‘You were the one who polluted my water last year.’ The lamb replied: ‘It wasn’t me,’ but the wolf insisted: ‘Yes it was.’ The lamb said: ‘I was only born this year.’ The wolf replied: ‘Then it was your mother who polluted my water’, and he ate the lamb. When the poor ewe saw her son being torn by the wolf’s teeth, her maternal feelings drove her to give the wolf a hard butt. The wolf cried out: ‘Look at this terrorism!’ And all the parrots repeated what he said, saying ‘Yes, we condemn the ewe’s butting of the wolf.’ What do you think about the wolf eating the ewe’s lamb?”



“These blessed, successful strikes are merely a reaction to events in our land in Palestine, in Iraq, and in other places. America has continued this policy with the coming of George Bush Jr, who began his term with violent airstrikes on Iraq to emphasize the policy of oppression and hostility, and to show that the blood of Muslims has no value.”[2]



“God gave them the chance to teach a harsh lesson to these arrogant people who think that freedom only has meaning for the white race, and that other peoples should be humiliated and subservient, not even rising up when they strike us, as they did previously in Iraq.”



“Our terrorism against America is a praiseworthy terrorism in defense against the oppressor, in order that America will stop supporting Israel, who kills our sons. Can you not understand this? It is very clear.”



“America and the western leaders always say that Hamas and Islamic Jihad [the defensive war] is Palestine, and other such militias, are terrorist organizations. If self-defense is terrorism, what is legitimate? Our defense and our fight is no different to that of our brothers in Palestine like Hamas…So let us relieve the oppression of the poor people in Palestine and elsewhere.”


October 6, 2002
“Why are we fighting and opposing you? The answer is very simple:

(1) Because you attacked us and continue to attack us.

(a) You attacked us in Palestine…

(b) You attacked us in Somalia; you supported the Russian atrocities against us in Chechnya, the Indian oppression against us in Kashmir, and the Jewish aggression against us in Lebanon.

(c) Under your supervision, consent, and orders, the governments of our

countries which act as your collaborators, attack us on a daily

basis…

(d) You steal our wealth and oil at paltry prices because of your international influence and military threats. The theft is indeed the biggest theft ever witnessed by mankind in the history of the world.

(e) Your forces occupy our countries; you spread your military bases throughout them; you corrupt our lands, and you besiege our sanctuaries, to protect the security of the Jews and to ensure the continuity of your pillage of our treasures.

(f) You have starved the Muslims of Iraq, where children die every day. It is a wonder that more than 1.5 million Iraqi children have died as a result of your sanctions, and that you have not shown concern. Yet when 3,000 of your people died, the entire world rises up and has not yet sat down.

(g) You have supported the Jews in their idea that Jerusalem is their eternal capital, and have agreed to move your embassy there. With your help and under your protection, the Israelis are planning to destroy the al-Aqsa mosque. Under the protection of your weapons, Sharon entered the al-Aqsa mosque, to pollute it as a preparation to capture and destroy it.


“Do not expect anything from us but jihad [the defensive war], resistance, and revenge. Is it in any way rational to expect that after America has attacked us for more than half a century, that we will then leave her to live in security and peace?”


“…the American people are the ones who choose their government through their own free will; a choice which stems from their agreement to its policies. Thus, the American people have chosen, consented to, and affirmed their support for Israel’s oppression of the Palestinians, the occupation and usurpation of their land, and its continuous killing, torture, punishment, and expulsion of the Palestinians. The American people have the ability and choice to refuse the policies of their government, and even to change it if they want.”


“The American people are the ones who pay the taxes which fund the planes that bomb us in Afghanistan, the tanks that strike and destroy our homes in Palestine, the armies which occupy our lands in the Arabian Gulf, and the fleets which ensure the blockade of Iraq. These tax dollars are given to Israel for it to continue attacking us and invade our lands. So the American people are the ones who fund the attacks against us, and they are the ones who oversee the expenditures of these monies in the way they wish, through their elected candidates.”

“You are a nation who, rather than ruling by the shari of God in its Constitution and Laws, choose to invent your own laws as you will and desire. You separate religion from your policies, contradicting the pure nature which affirms Absolute Authority to the Lord and your Creator. You flee from the embarrassing question posed to you: How is it possible for God the Almighty to fashion His creation, grant men power over all creatures and land, grant them all the amenities of life, and then deny them that which they are most in need of: knowledge of the laws which govern their lives?”


“You are a nation that permits usury, which has been forbidden by all the religions. Yet you build your economy on investments and usury. As a result of this, in all their different forms and guises, the Jews have taken control of your economy, through which they have then taken control of your media, and now control all aspects of your life making you their servants and achieving their aims at your expense…”


“Let us not forget one of your major characteristics: your duality in both manners and values; your hypocrisy in manners and principles. All manners, principles, and values have two scales: one for you and one for everybody else.”


“The freedom and democracy that you call for yourselves and for the white race only; as for the rest of the world, you impose upon it your monstrous, destructive policies and governments, which you call ‘friends of America’. Yet, you prevent them from establishing democracies.”


“You are the last ones to respect the resolutions and policies of International Law, yet you claim to want to selectively punish anyone else who does the same. Israel has for more than 50 years been pushing UN resolutions and rules to the wall with the full support of America.”


“We also advise you to stop supporting Israel, and to end your support of the Indians in Kashmir, the Russians against the Chechens, and also to cease supporting the Manila Government against the Muslims in the southern Philippines.”


“…we call upon you to end your support of the corrupt leaders in our countries. Do not interfere in our politics and method of education. Leave us alone, or else expect us in New York and Washington.”


“We also call you to deal with us and interact with us on the basis of mutual interests and benefits, rather than the policies of subjugation, theft, and occupation, and not to continue your policy of supporting Jews because this will result in more disasters for you.”


November 12, 2002
“Our people have suffered murder and torture in Palestine for nearly a century. But as soon as we defend them the world gets agitated and joins forces against the Muslims under the false and unjust pretext of fighting terrorism.”


“How long will fear, killing, destruction, displacement, orphaning, and widowing be our sole destiny, while security, stability, and happiness is yours? This is injustice. The time has come to settle accounts. Just as you kill, se you shall be killed; just as you bomb, so you shall be bombed. And there will be more to come.”


February 14, 2003
“One of the most important objectives of this new Crusader campaign, after dividing up the region, is to prepare it for the establishment of what is called the state of Greater Israel, which would incorporate large parts of Iraq and Egypt within its borders, as well as Syria, Lebanon and Jordan, the whole of Palestine, and a large part of Saudi Arabia.”

“As the twin towers of New York collapsed, something even greater and more enormous collapsed with them: the myth of the great America and the myth of democracy. It became clear to all that America’s values are the lowest, and the myth of the ‘land of the free’ was destroyed, as was the myth of American national security and the CIA, all praise and glory to God. One of the most important positive effects of our attacks on New York and Washington was to expose the reality of the struggle between the Crusaders and the Muslims, and to demonstrate the enormous hostility that the Crusaders feel towards us. The attacks revealed the American wolf in its true ugliness. The entire world woke up from its slumber, and the Muslims realized the importance of the doctrine of friendship and enmity in God. The spirit of brotherhood in faith amongst Muslims was strengthened, which can be considered a great step towards unification of the Muslims under the word of God and establishing the rightly guided Caliphate with the permission of God. It also became clear to people that America, this unjust power, can be struck down and humiliated. And for the first time, most of the American population is aware of the reality of the Palestinian issue, and that what happened to them in Manhattan was a result of the unjust policies of their government.”



“…our issues – the most important of which is Palestine….”


January 4, 2004
“The occupation of Iraq is a link in the Zionist-Crusader chain of evil. Then comes the full occupation of the rest of the Gulf states to set the stage for controlling and dominating the whole world. For the big powers believe that the Gulf and the Gulf states are the key to controlling the world, due to the presence of the largest oil reserves there.”


April 15, 2004
“It is well known that security is a vital necessity for every human being. We will not let you monopolize it for yourselves, just as sensible people would not let their leaders compromise their security…Since we have reacted in kind, your description of us as terrorists and of our actions as terrorism necessarily means that you and your actions must be defined likewise. Our actions are but a reaction to yours – your destruction and murder of our people, whether in Afghanistan, Iraq, or Palestine. Look, for example, at the event that terrorized the world, the murder of the wheelchair-bound Sheikh Ahmed Yassin, God have mercy on his soul. We gave our pledge that we will take revenge on America for his death, with God’s will.’

“President Bush and leaders like him, the big media institutions, the United Nations, which legislates between army leaders and the mighty General Assembly – all these are merely agents of deception and exploitation. These and others are groups who are a mortal danger to the entire world, the most dangerous and difficult of these being the Zionist lobby.”


October 29, 2004
“God knows that the plan of striking the towers had not occurred to us, but the idea came to me when things went just too far with the American-Israeli alliance’s oppression and atrocities against our people in Palestine and Lebanon.”



“The events that made a direct impression on me were during and after 1982, when America allowed the Israelis to invade Lebanon with the help of its third fleet. They started bombing, killing and wounding many, while others fled in terror. I still remember those distressing scenes: blood, torn limbs, women and children massacred. All over the place, houses were being destroyed and tower blocks were collapsing, crushing their residents, while bombs rained down mercilessly on our homes. It was like a crocodile devouring a child, who could do nothing but scream. Does a crocodile understand anything other than weapons? The whole world heard and saw what happened, but did nothing. In those critical moments, many ideas raged inside me, ideas difficult to describe, but they unleashed a powerful urge to reject injustice and a strong determination to punish the oppressors.”



“As I looked at those destroyed towers in Lebanon, it occurred to me to punish the oppressor in kind by destroying towers in America, so that it would have a taste of its own medicine and would be prevented from killing our women and children. On that day I became sure that the oppression and intentional murder of innocent women and children is a deliberate American policy. It seemed to me that “freedom” and “democracy” are actually just terror, just as resistance is labeled “terrorism” and “reaction.” Imposing lethal sanctions on millions of people, as Bush Sr. did, and carrying out the mass butchering of children, is the worst thing that humanity has ever known. So is dropping millions of pounds of bombs and explosives on millions of children in Iraq, as Bush Junior did, to remove a former collaborator, and install a new one who will help steal Iraq’s oil, as well as commit other atrocities.”

“Against the background of these and similar images, the events of September 11 came as a response to these great injustices. Can you blame someone for protecting his own? Self-defense and punishing the oppressor in kind: is this shameful terrorism? Even if it is, we have no other option. This is the message that we have repeatedly tried to convey to you in words and deeds, years before September 11. You could see this, if you were so inclined, in the interview with Scott MacLeod in Time magazine in 1996, as well as the one with Peter Arnett on CNN in 1997, and with John Weiner in 1998. You could see it in the events in Nairobi, Tanzania, and Aden; you could see it in my interviews with Abdel Bari Atwan and with Robert Fisk, who is a fellow [Westerner] and a co-religionist of yours, but one whom I consider unbiased.”



“Would those in the White House, and the TV channels who answer to those who claim to stand for freedom, dare to interview him [Fisk], so that he could explain to the American people everything he has learned from us about the reasons for our struggle? For if you could avoid perpetrating these injustices, you Americans would be on the right path towards the security you enjoyed before September 11. This is what I can say about war and its reasons.”
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Juan_Bottom
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Re: Osama Bin Laden is not dead

Post by Juan_Bottom »

thegreekdog wrote:Am I not being clear here? Some people believe that Osama bin Laden has (in his mind) justification for attacking on September 11, 2001 because the United States was engaged in killing Muslims. Before September 11, 2001, what were these "Muslim-killing" activities engaged in by the United States? What specifically was the United States doing? The only thing I've seen so far is retailatory actions for terrorists attacks on Americans. In other words, the terrorists struck the United States first and the United States struck back. Then we have the Persian Gulf War, which was not a war against Muslims, it was a war in favor of oil. The United States protected one country full of Muslims (Kuwait) against another country full of Muslims (Iraq) because the United States wanted to keep access to cheap oil from Kuwait.

In addition to my quotes from Osama, I'm very specific here:
viewtopic.php?f=8&t=112367&p=2511410

:::Here is my quote without tags (and I'm sorry for the poor spelling, I had to piece it all together and therefor I was too impatient to care):::


Oct 7th, 2007

Osma's 'three reasons for enmity against the United States.

#1 The U.S. Imposed sanctions against Iraq from 1991 to 9/11: "One million Iraqi Children have thus far died thought they did not do anything wrong."

#2 American Policies towards Israel and her occupied territories: "I swear to God that America will not live in peace before peace reigns in Palestine."

#3The Stationing of U.S. troops and the building of military bases in Saudi Arabia: "and before all the army of infidels depart from the land of Muhammad.

Of this list, as an American, #1 is the most troubling for my conscience. I can't help but empathize with Osama on some level. I feel awful even thinking that but I do.


ViperOverLord wrote:Way to mischaracterize conservative values. You are the one that should read your crap carefully.

1. We don't want ruthlessly stamp out the enemy
2. Iraq was a brutal place that threatened national security. We liberated 20 million people. I'm not sorry that you have a problem with that.
3. We don't base our beliefs on God being on 'our side.' God loves everyone equally. But you will find that there is a very sinister undercurrent of murder in the Middle East. That is why there are honor killings, assasinations and just your general politics of murder based on theocracy. You don't see politicians getting killed here because a Christian was offended.

GET AN F'ING CLUE BEFORE YOU POST YOUR OFFENSIVE DRIVEL

I'm sorry, but you just pissed me off. Allow me to rebuttal.

Your #2 is a complete fabrication. We didn't liberate them... unless you want to say that we liberated them from the UN, which imposed US and UK sanctions on the people of Iraq in an attempt to kill enough people quietly that they did the work of overthrowing Saddam without us.
Allow this:
The U.S. imposed sanctions on Iraq between 1991 and 2003. George Bush Senior's NSA General Brent Scowcroft gets a lot of credit here for being one of the Morons whose actions directly/indirectly lead to 9-11(Madeline Albright gets some of this credit too). Here's how it went down, see he, and G.B. Senior wanted to make Iraq ungovernable... because they didn't want to invade during the Gulf War, right? So they came up with a plan to cause revolt in Iraq. They dropped 90,000 tons of bombs in Iraq in a month and a half. They targeted Power plants (they destroyed 18 of 20) and Iraq's water pumping and sanitation systems. While this alone is a direct violation of the parts of the Geneva Convention , that's not what should grab you.
What should grab you was the United State's goal during this bombing campaign. We knew, ahead of time, that by destroying these vital systems we would create increased outbreaks of disease and high child mortality rates. That's right motherfucker's, we bombed Iraq in a way that was targeting unborn children. The anti-abortionist's championed a president that authorized killing unborn Iraqi children.
Any way, if you're reading this, you prolly want statistics. Dr. Thomas Nagy did all this work for us. The Primary Document that you should see, is "Iraq Water Treatment Vulnerabilities," dated January 22, 1991. Allow me to quote a snippet
"[Iraq's river's] contain biological materials, pollutants, and are laden with bacteria. Unless the water is pruified with chlorine, epidemics of such diseases as cholera, hepatitis, and typhoid could occur."


One of the items our US/UK embargo blocked after destroying these sanitation plants, was chlorine.

in 1995 Colonel John A Warden II wrote
"As a result, [of the shut down of water treatment plants] epidemics of Gastreonteritis, cholera, and typhoid broke out, leading to perhaps as many as 100,000 civilian deaths and doubling the infant mortality rate."


May 1991 A team from the Harvard School of Public Health suggested:
at least 170,000 children under the age of five will die in the coming year a=from the delayed effects of the bombing.


I also mentioned that bombing these sites was a violation of the Geneva conventions right? If you don't believe me it's under Article 54 (2) of "the protocol Additional to the Geneva Conventions August 12, 1949, relating to the Protection of Victims of International Armed Conflicts (Protocol I), June 8, 1977"
What I find most interesting about this, is that although the US refused to sign this, we are still liable for War Crimes!

Our sanctions after-the-fact (1/3 of the reason Osama attacked us) deepened the effects of the bombing. They were, without doubt, the toughest sanctions ever imposed on a nation. U.N. Security Council Resolution 661 froze all foreign Iraqi assets and authorized everyone to cut off trade. We so strongly applied our embargo that Iraq had almost no money to buy basic medicine's for it's people.
Richard Garfield:
Iraq's legal trade was cut by an estimated 90% by sanctions

In 1995 the U.N.F.A. wrote
an estimated 567,000 Iraqi children are estimated to have died from the sanctions

This lead to a short lived outcry from several worldwide watch-groups. So, in '96 the UN adopted it's "Oil for Food" program. While it was a public relation's win, it did nothing to save Iraqi lives. All proceeds were banked by the UN, and they skimmed off 47% to pay for alleged war crimes against Kuwait and some for the Kurds in Iraq.
All this time, the US alone held onto the right to veto or delay anything that Iraq ordered. And we did, a sh!tload. from '01 - '02 holds on humanitarian aid tripled. We denied medicine, firefighting equipment, school supplies including computers and printers, milk production and pasteurization equipment, ect. Of course, we also continued blocking chlorine, and all parts for building/reparing water purification and sanitation machines/plants.
Anupama Rao Singh, the United Nation's Children's Fund Rep to Iraq:
Children under five were dying from malnutrition-related diseases in numbers ranging from a conservative 2,600 per month to a more realistic 5,357 per month.


Richard Garfield himself estimates that through 2000, US imposed sanctions killed approx. 350,000 children.

I can go on and on about the US being the Iraqi liberators. We were holding them hostage this whole time!!! We were killing their children!



And your #3 is just utterly ridiculous.
The United States has abducted and tortured more people than all the Iraqi and Afgahni insurgents by all accounts. We have purposefully killed more civilians than both combined. All of that which we have done through "collateral damage" is prohibited by the Geneva conventions "Common Article 3."
When I say that we have killed more civilians... the Boston Globe estimated the number between twice and ten times the numbers killed by insurgents bombs.
6/2/2005 Iraqi Interior Ministry announces that:
Insurgent violence has claimed some 12,000 civilian lives. The American military has killed between 21,000 and 50,000 civilians.
However that same year the Iraqiyun Humanitarian Organization released it's study that the US had killed 128,000 civilians.

In Afghanistan, according to Robert Fisk, B-52s alone accounted for 3,700 deaths by 2001.
After this, until 2007 most reports are for individual attacks.
12/29/2001 52 people slain by American forces (over half women and children)
1/23/2002 16 villagers and 14 woman and children killed in separate incidents
6/30/2002 An AC 130 gunship opens fire on a wedding killing 48 bodies. All but three are women and children. At first the US claimed the gunship had come under fire, but later admitted it's mistake after a special forces investigation proved that it had not. The US promised to build schools, roads, and a hospital in the area as a reprieve. But so far has not.

During the Shock and Awe attack of Iraq the Defense department drew up plans to kill Saddam and other high value targets. By US rules, Rumsfeld had to sign off ANY air strike
"thought likely to result in the deaths of more than thirty civilians."
He signed off on all 50 that came to him. None of the high value targets were killed.
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Re: Osama Bin Laden is not dead

Post by thegreekdog »

Thanks Juan... that's what I was looking for.

I'll read more, but it appears that (1) Osama bin Laden did not get what he wanted (less Middle East intervention), (2) He, in fact, got the opposite of what he wanted (more Middle East intervention), and (3) His anger seemed misplaced and entirely out of proportionate response.

I'm very much opposed to military intervention in the Middle East. As far as I'm concerned, the people in the Middle East have the right to govern themselves as they see fit.
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Re: Osama Bin Laden is not dead

Post by Pope Joan »

thegreekdog wrote: the people in the Middle East have the right to govern themselves as they see fit.


Sorry, this phrase makes no sense. Switzerland is probably the only country where people "govern" themselves: they decide on referendums even whether to give swiss nationality to their neighbhors. California is the next close thing but that place is a mess as far as government is concerned.

Going to Middle East, one can see how people govern themselves in Somalia or Lybia or Saudi Arabia. Having said, it is, indeed, better if USofA buggers off and let the local people to sort out their mess themselves..
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Re: Osama Bin Laden is not dead

Post by thegreekdog »

Pope Joan wrote:
thegreekdog wrote: the people in the Middle East have the right to govern themselves as they see fit.


Sorry, this phrase makes no sense. Switzerland is probably the only country where people "govern" themselves: they decide on referendums even whether to give swiss nationality to their neighbhors. California is the next close thing but that place is a mess as far as government is concerned.

Going to Middle East, one can see how people govern themselves in Somalia or Lybia or Saudi Arabia. Having said, it is, indeed, better if USofA buggers off and let the local people to sort out their mess themselves..


The people of the Middle East are free to fight against tyrannical governments. It has become clear, throughout the course of US history, that meddling with the affairs of other countries is not appreciated. Any number of non-US folks on this forum, as a small sample size, have concluded that the United States does more harm than good.

Thus, I propose that we leave everyone to their own devices. I suppose there are economic reasons why we become involved in military matters abroad, but we are one of the few countries that could be self-sufficient from a resource perspective (Russia being the other one).
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Re: Osama Bin Laden is not dead

Post by Pope Joan »

thegreekdog wrote: The people of the Middle East are free to fight against tyrannical governments. It has become clear, throughout the course of US history, that meddling with the affairs of other countries is not appreciated. Any number of non-US folks on this forum, as a small sample size, have concluded that the United States does more harm than good.


I would find it impossible to quantify whether it is more harm than good or the other way around. It is like when you fistfight your buddy and a big bad teacher stops, you both think that the teacher is an asshole spoiling all the fun...

BTW, I am non US but I think that the majority of people of the Middle East give no shit about tyrranical or democratic governments and just want to live their lives and have fun, playing risk, raising kids, building homes, etc.
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Re: Osama Bin Laden is not dead

Post by BigBallinStalin »

thegreekdog wrote:
BigBallinStalin wrote:
thegreekdog wrote:
crustykev wrote:If Bin Laden was posting here, he would say that attacks on Muslim States killed tens if not hundreds of thousands of Muslim civillians.
So from Bin Laden's point of view, the Twin Towers is payment in kind.


And I would counter with the following question - what attacks on Muslim states by the United States killed tens if not hundreds of thousands of Muslims?


Unless one conveniently ignores the 100s of thousands Muslim civilians killed by US Forces from the Persian Gulf War, Iraq-US War 2003, Afghani-US War 2002, and then of the two last wars, the prolonged "partisan suppression" employed by the US followed by supporting/installing the corrupt central government of Karzai and Co(mpany of Former Warlords), then I guess the US never killed hundreds of thousands of Muslims.


(1) Persian Gulf War - 1991 - Iraq invades Kuwait; US defends Kuwait.
(2) Afghani-US War and Iraqi War - post-2001 - Arguably in response to September 11th.
(3) Partisan "suppression" - was this Afghanistan? Or are we mixing up the Soviets and the Americans? Also, why didn't Osama bin Laden lead an attack on Russia?


JB's post was a great read, but for the above you're overlooking a few things:

(1) Kuwait is not a NATO member, so what's really the justification here? The incentive for the US defending Kuwait was to shape the geo-political region according to US goals and objectives. The US superseded any Muslim-led diplomatic effort by immediately pushing their agenda through UN and then attacking Kuwait. This attack was mostly paid for by many Middle Eastern countries. Many Muslims experienced seeing their government paying a foreign military (with its increasingly ugly history in the Middle East) attack another Muslim country, thus killing 10s of thousands of civilians while double-crossing a large majority of southern Iraqis who were encouraged by the US to take arms against the Iraqi government.

Afterward, sanctions were placed on Iraq followed by the occasional US-British bombing campaigns on power plants and other infrastructure over the next 7 or so years.

The US defends Kuwait in order to achieve US objectives created from their geo-political strategy for the Middle East. The US directly killed 10,000s of civilians, then bombed more civilians and the Iraqi infrastructure from 1993 roughly up to 2002, so that the US could keep a government it likes in power, i.e. Kuwait.

The war and its after-affects killed over a 100,000 civilians (not counting sanctions and later bombing campaigns.

http://www.post-gazette.com/nation/20030216casualty0216p5.asp




[u](2) Afghani-US War and Iraqi War - post-2001 - Arguably in response to September 11th.[/u]
Obliterating a government which almost ended the civil war in Afghanistan and then replacing it with Karzai and his former warlords buddies is not a justified response to an attack instigated by some terrorist base, which was not an entire country and its people.

That ongoing war has extended the civil war, which will result in another colossal fuck-up for the US, but their hands will be out of that mess when they leave.

WikiLeaks. Classified Iraq war logs[1][2][3][4] 104,924 recorded iraqi deaths, including 92,003[5] (or 66,081[6]) civilian deaths.


Sounds about right. It's a modest count too.

(3) Partisan "suppression" - was this Afghanistan? Or are we mixing up the Soviets and the Americans? Also, why didn't Osama bin Laden lead an attack on Russia?

1) Russia has nuclear weapons, so the reasonable choice leads to proxy wars and arms races through other smaller countries.

2) I'd define partisan suppression as beating down those who oppose foreign occupation and/or a government they find as illegitimate to exercise control over their own lands. The Soviets did that, and the Americans did that and continue to do so. Currently, the Americans alongside Karzai and Co are trying to coerce the peoples of Afghani into accepting the installed central government's rule.

3) Estimates for civilian casualties for the US-Afghanistan war resulted in roughly 4,000 civilian casualties. Since the US destabilized the entire country, other conflicts ensued, which resulted in more civilian deaths--from the US, the central government, and from the partisans themselves.





These US-led aggressive wars, proxy wars, and arm races have led to the deaths of hundreds of thousands of Muslims dying, and to the destruction of wealth and prosperity within the affected regions. How can you deny that the US is not responsible for oppressing and killing so many people in order for them to achieve US goals?

EDIT: JB beat me to it :/
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Re: Osama Bin Laden is not dead

Post by Woodruff »

crustykev wrote:
Woodruff wrote:
crustykev wrote:
radiojake wrote:
thegreekdog wrote:America created bin Laden?
I mean, look, people in the US are brainwashed about a lot of things, but... I mean, c'mon.

Uhh.. you do know that bin Laden used to be on the CIA payroll, don't you? You know that al-Qaeda first got their weapons and equipment from the US so they could fight the Soviets in the 1980's, don't you?

Read:
http://www.thiscantbehappening.net/node/603


That's true.
Bin Laden was funded and armed by the US to fight the Russians in Afghanistan.
In a sense, Bin Laden has always acted consistently.
He has always fought against those who he believes are attacking Muslim states.

So whether Bin Laden is a freedom fighter or a terrorist depends on who is doing the labelling, and when they are doing it.
To the US, Bin Laden was a freedom fighter while fighting the Russians in Afghanistan.
And yet, he becomes a terrorist only because his enemy has changed, not the battle, (from his point of view) which is anyone who attacks Muslim states


Yes...and yet, no. In bin Ladin's fight against Russia, it was a defensive fight against Russia's military. A wholly different mission spec than his fight with the U.S.

crustykev wrote:And btw, its Abbottabad.
Its easy to remember.
Abad means "place of" or something similar.
And Abbott was a British Army Major who served in Afghanistan about 1850ish.


I did not know that was where the "Abbott" portion of that name came from. Interesting. And surprising, that the name survived, given that.


I'm not a cheerleader for Bin Laden.
But the US media only portrays one point of view, and is selective and almost always pro-US in the point of view it does portray.
If Bin Laden was posting here, he would say that attacks on Muslim States killed tens if not hundreds of thousands of Muslim civillians.
So from Bin Laden's point of view, the Twin Towers is payment in kind.


Oh, no question. We in the US have a very bad habit of making friends with the short-term only in mind, not being concerned at all with the long-term ramifications of what we do and who we keep company with.
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Re: Osama Bin Laden is not dead

Post by Woodruff »

thegreekdog wrote:Am I not being clear here? Some people believe that Osama bin Laden has (in his mind) justification for attacking on September 11, 2001 because the United States was engaged in killing Muslims. Before September 11, 2001, what were these "Muslim-killing" activities engaged in by the United States? What specifically was the United States doing? The only thing I've seen so far is retailatory actions for terrorists attacks on Americans. In other words, the terrorists struck the United States first and the United States struck back. Then we have the Persian Gulf War, which was not a war against Muslims, it was a war in favor of oil. The United States protected one country full of Muslims (Kuwait) against another country full of Muslims (Iraq) because the United States wanted to keep access to cheap oil from Kuwait.


You seem to believe that Osama's primary motivation is in revenging deaths from Americans. That really is not true at all, as I've covered in other posts. The "death tolls" are good recruiting material, but he's stated many times that our military presence in the holy lands is a primary motivation for him.
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Re: Osama Bin Laden is not dead

Post by Phatscotty »

Iran can prove Bin Laden was dead long before US raid

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Re: Osama Bin Laden is not dead

Post by radiojake »

Great post Juan,

Some of his rhetoric sounds quite stable and sane, too bad it gets caught up in religious rhetoric and he misses the point that even in Democracies it is really fucking hard to vote out corrupt leaders.

However,

The US has had centuries of applying sanctions and embargos on other countries. We can go way back to the start of the 19th century and the Haitian Revolution.

As we all know, the Haitian Revolution was the only succesful Black Slave revolt in the ´New World´ when they defeated the French to set up an independant Haiti. This event actually helped the US with the Lousiana Purchase, as Napolean had lost 'interest' in his North American colonies (and was probably a bit burnt by losing to 'black slaves') and had decided to focus his energy on conquering Europe.

So in theory, the US should have probably been grateful for Haiti in setting up conditions for allowing the US to purchase such a large tract of land - But no. They didn't want the Haitian Revolution to become a precedent for an American Black Slave Revolution. So what did they do? They slapped a whole lot of trade embargos on Haiti that helped cripple the economics of the nation. (There were obviously other factors, like the simultaneous creation of a caste-system once the French left - The rural poor and the elite land ownders)

This is but a small story in a history of aggressive US foreign policy that has directly led to the starvations and deaths of millions of innocent civilians over the centuries.
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Re: Osama Bin Laden is not dead

Post by Woodruff »

...I prefer a man who will burn the flag and then wrap himself in the Constitution to a man who will burn the Constitution and then wrap himself in the flag.
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Re: Osama Bin Laden is not dead

Post by BigBallinStalin »

Phatscotty wrote:Iran can prove Bin Laden was dead long before US raid

"Dump his body in the sea. No photos."

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Moslehi labeled the US raid in Abbottabad as a “PR campaign”, created to divert the attention of its citizens from domestic problems, such as the “fragile” state of the US economy.


And distract them from the nonsense in Libya.


(nice photo)
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Re: Osama Bin Laden is not dead

Post by thegreekdog »

Woodruff wrote:
thegreekdog wrote:Am I not being clear here? Some people believe that Osama bin Laden has (in his mind) justification for attacking on September 11, 2001 because the United States was engaged in killing Muslims. Before September 11, 2001, what were these "Muslim-killing" activities engaged in by the United States? What specifically was the United States doing? The only thing I've seen so far is retailatory actions for terrorists attacks on Americans. In other words, the terrorists struck the United States first and the United States struck back. Then we have the Persian Gulf War, which was not a war against Muslims, it was a war in favor of oil. The United States protected one country full of Muslims (Kuwait) against another country full of Muslims (Iraq) because the United States wanted to keep access to cheap oil from Kuwait.


You seem to believe that Osama's primary motivation is in revenging deaths from Americans. That really is not true at all, as I've covered in other posts. The "death tolls" are good recruiting material, but he's stated many times that our military presence in the holy lands is a primary motivation for him.


No, actually, I don't believe that. I think others in this thread believe that and I'm attempting to tease out that we didn't actually kill a whole lot of Muslims before September 11th and thus our killing of Osama bin Laden was righteous. BBS caught on to what I was saying and I believe is debating with me for the sake of debating with me, but he's the only one thus far.

Killing a whole bunch of people is ridiculous. Killing a whole bunch of innocent people is horrific. Killing a whole bunch of innocent people because the country they were in had military bases in Muslim countries is insane.
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Re: Osama Bin Laden is not dead

Post by BigBallinStalin »

thegreekdog wrote:
Woodruff wrote:
thegreekdog wrote:Am I not being clear here? Some people believe that Osama bin Laden has (in his mind) justification for attacking on September 11, 2001 because the United States was engaged in killing Muslims. Before September 11, 2001, what were these "Muslim-killing" activities engaged in by the United States? What specifically was the United States doing? The only thing I've seen so far is retailatory actions for terrorists attacks on Americans. In other words, the terrorists struck the United States first and the United States struck back. Then we have the Persian Gulf War, which was not a war against Muslims, it was a war in favor of oil. The United States protected one country full of Muslims (Kuwait) against another country full of Muslims (Iraq) because the United States wanted to keep access to cheap oil from Kuwait.


You seem to believe that Osama's primary motivation is in revenging deaths from Americans. That really is not true at all, as I've covered in other posts. The "death tolls" are good recruiting material, but he's stated many times that our military presence in the holy lands is a primary motivation for him.


No, actually, I don't believe that. I think others in this thread believe that and I'm attempting to tease out that we didn't actually kill a whole lot of Muslims before September 11th and thus our killing of Osama bin Laden was righteous. BBS caught on to what I was saying and I believe is debating with me for the sake of debating with me, but he's the only one thus far.

Killing a whole bunch of people is ridiculous. Killing a whole bunch of innocent people is horrific. Killing a whole bunch of innocent people because the country they were in had military bases in Muslim countries is insane.


Why don't you talk to me, TGD?

Do you not love me anymore?

:cry:
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Re: Osama Bin Laden is not dead

Post by thegreekdog »

BigBallinStalin wrote:
thegreekdog wrote:
Woodruff wrote:
thegreekdog wrote:Am I not being clear here? Some people believe that Osama bin Laden has (in his mind) justification for attacking on September 11, 2001 because the United States was engaged in killing Muslims. Before September 11, 2001, what were these "Muslim-killing" activities engaged in by the United States? What specifically was the United States doing? The only thing I've seen so far is retailatory actions for terrorists attacks on Americans. In other words, the terrorists struck the United States first and the United States struck back. Then we have the Persian Gulf War, which was not a war against Muslims, it was a war in favor of oil. The United States protected one country full of Muslims (Kuwait) against another country full of Muslims (Iraq) because the United States wanted to keep access to cheap oil from Kuwait.


You seem to believe that Osama's primary motivation is in revenging deaths from Americans. That really is not true at all, as I've covered in other posts. The "death tolls" are good recruiting material, but he's stated many times that our military presence in the holy lands is a primary motivation for him.


No, actually, I don't believe that. I think others in this thread believe that and I'm attempting to tease out that we didn't actually kill a whole lot of Muslims before September 11th and thus our killing of Osama bin Laden was righteous. BBS caught on to what I was saying and I believe is debating with me for the sake of debating with me, but he's the only one thus far.

Killing a whole bunch of people is ridiculous. Killing a whole bunch of innocent people is horrific. Killing a whole bunch of innocent people because the country they were in had military bases in Muslim countries is insane.


Why don't you talk to me, TGD?

Do you not love me anymore?

:cry:


I think it's fair to say that I only reply when being directly challenged or when I disagree. So, I probably have a lot more replies to Player than I do to you (as an example).
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Re: Osama Bin Laden is not dead

Post by Woodruff »

thegreekdog wrote:Killing a whole bunch of innocent people because the country they were in had military bases in Muslim countries is insane.


While I agree with you that it is not a legitimate reason to engage in a war of terror against a nation, I wouldn't agree that it's insane at all. Considering that infidel military forces are stationed in your holy land...that's a pretty big deal, I think, from a religious perspective.
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Re: Osama Bin Laden is not dead

Post by thegreekdog »

Woodruff wrote:
thegreekdog wrote:Killing a whole bunch of innocent people because the country they were in had military bases in Muslim countries is insane.


While I agree with you that it is not a legitimate reason to engage in a war of terror against a nation, I wouldn't agree that it's insane at all. Considering that infidel military forces are stationed in your holy land...that's a pretty big deal, I think, from a religious perspective.


I'm not suggesting that it's insane to be angry (as you can see from my quoted post), I'm suggesting it's insane to kill a lot of innocent people (as you can see my quoted post).
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Re: Osama Bin Laden is not dead

Post by BigBallinStalin »

thegreekdog wrote:
Woodruff wrote:
thegreekdog wrote:Killing a whole bunch of innocent people because the country they were in had military bases in Muslim countries is insane.


While I agree with you that it is not a legitimate reason to engage in a war of terror against a nation, I wouldn't agree that it's insane at all. Considering that infidel military forces are stationed in your holy land...that's a pretty big deal, I think, from a religious perspective.


I'm not suggesting that it's insane to be angry (as you can see from my quoted post), I'm suggesting it's insane to kill a lot of innocent people (as you can see my quoted post).


Isn't it rational to kill "innocent" people?

1) Nearly all of these guerrilla organizations (or terrorists) have defined all American citizens as responsible for supporting and electing politicians--most of whom endorse aggressive US military actions against Muslim countries, and who have committed plenty of grievances against those who increasingly harbor anti-American sentiments (infringing upon Pakistan's sovereignty, three recent large wars, supporting Israel, supporting authoritarian regimes in Muslim countries, killing civilians accidently or intentionally through using a cost-benefit analysis and calling the cost as collateral damage, etc, etc, etc).

2) These guerrilla organizations (or terrorists) have no means of conventionally engaging the US in warfare due to a significant lack of resources; therefore, it is unreasonable to expect them to do so. The most economical means for them to wage war against their enemy is to strike their enemies using guerrilla tactics--IEDs, hit-and-run, and operations directed at civilians.

(I'm not making a normative argument here. This is strictly examining the cause-and-effect behavioral relationship between terrorism and US militarism in order to explain the rationale beneath it.)


Conclusion: Terrorism through non-conventional means is rational, thus not insane.
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Re: Osama Bin Laden is not dead

Post by Pirlo »

BigBallinStalin wrote:
thegreekdog wrote:
Woodruff wrote:
thegreekdog wrote:Killing a whole bunch of innocent people because the country they were in had military bases in Muslim countries is insane.


While I agree with you that it is not a legitimate reason to engage in a war of terror against a nation, I wouldn't agree that it's insane at all. Considering that infidel military forces are stationed in your holy land...that's a pretty big deal, I think, from a religious perspective.


I'm not suggesting that it's insane to be angry (as you can see from my quoted post), I'm suggesting it's insane to kill a lot of innocent people (as you can see my quoted post).


Isn't it rational to kill "innocent" people?

1) Nearly all of these guerrilla organizations (or terrorists) have defined all American citizens as responsible for supporting and electing politicians--most of whom endorse aggressive US military actions against Muslim countries, and who have committed plenty of grievances against those who increasingly harbor anti-American sentiments (infringing upon Pakistan's sovereignty, three recent large wars, supporting Israel, supporting authoritarian regimes in Muslim countries, killing civilians accidently or intentionally through using a cost-benefit analysis and calling the cost as collateral damage, etc, etc, etc).

2) These guerrilla organizations (or terrorists) have no means of conventionally engaging the US in warfare due to a significant lack of resources; therefore, it is unreasonable to expect them to do so. The most economical means for them to wage war against their enemy is to strike their enemies using guerrilla tactics--IEDs, hit-and-run, and operations directed at civilians.

(I'm not making a normative argument here. This is strictly examining the cause-and-effect behavioral relationship between terrorism and US militarism in order to explain the rationale beneath it.)


Conclusion: Terrorism through non-conventional means is rational, thus not insane.


couldn't agree more with BBS..

I can give you a list of reasons why would a normal guy in the middle east hate America. and by America, I mean USA government.

apart from my special cases as a Palestinian whose country was raped by Zionists 63 years ago which forced my parents to run (aka transfer); the fact that I had to be born then raise abroad in foreign countries here and there. let all that aside.

let's talk about a normal Egyptian guy. not extremist and not fighter, not even theist. very normal.

1) 1956: Suez Crisis. approved by USA http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Suez_Crisis
2) 1967: Six-day war http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Six-Day_War
3) 1973: Yom Kippur War http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Yom_Kippur_War
4) Sabra and Shatila massacre http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sabra_and_Shatila_massacre
5) 1982: 1982 Lebanon War http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1982_Lebanon_War
6) 1996: shelling of Qana http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1996_shelling_of_Qana
7) 2002: Battle of Jenin (Jenin Massacre... but the name is distorted) http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Battle_of_Jenin
8) 2006: Qana airstrike http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Qana_airstrike
9) 2008: Gaza Holocaust (very distorted here) http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gaza_War

it is just a sample of Israel's brutal crimes, yet they always play the victim role.

see this video and then follow the given related series... most thoughts and views are given by American professors
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=N7qF3kd9 ... re=related
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Re: Osama Bin Laden is not dead

Post by Phatscotty »

Woodruff wrote:
thegreekdog wrote:Killing a whole bunch of innocent people because the country they were in had military bases in Muslim countries is insane.


While I agree with you that it is not a legitimate reason to engage in a war of terror against a nation, I wouldn't agree that it's insane at all. Considering that infidel military forces are stationed in your holy land...that's a pretty big deal, I think, from a religious perspective.


how about.... it would be more sane if they attacked a military target rather than civilians?
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Re: Osama Bin Laden is not dead

Post by thegreekdog »

Again, Pirlo, I understand the hatred, angst, etc. of the average Middle East person towards the United States.

What I'm trying to understand is why one guy decided it would be a good idea to kill a lot of innocent people and then why people in the Middle East thought it was awesome and/or thought it was bad that the US killed the guy responsible for killing all those innocent people.
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