Senate blocks census US-citizenship question

[GabonX]

WASHINGTON – Senate Democrats have blocked a GOP attempt to require next year's census forms to ask people whether they are a U.S. citizen.

The proposal by Louisiana Republican Sen. David Vitter was aimed at excluding immigrants from the population totals that are used to figure the number of congressional representatives for each state. Critics said Vitter's plan would discourage immigrants from responding to the census and would be hugely expensive. They also said that it's long been settled law that the apportionment of congressional seats is determined by the number of people living in each state, regardless of whether they are citizens. A separate survey already collects the data.

The plan fell after a 60-39 procedural vote made it ineligible for attachment to a bill funding the census.

http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20091105/ap_ ... migrants_1

I can kind of see the point that the question may discourage participation in the survey, but the fact that the number of illegal aliens that reside in a given state is going to affect the number of representatives that the state has shows a glaring flaw in our democratic system. These people can't even vote, yet they are going to affect the apportionment of representatives...

[got tonkaed]

That is a tricky one. I can certainly see where you cause problems by having it on there, as you point out. At the same time, there are certainly merits to precision and accuracy in the accounting of how many people are here.

[MeDeFe]

I think the fact that they can't vote is the bigger flaw in the democratic system in this case.

[GabonX]

I think the fact that they can't vote is the bigger flaw in the democratic system in this case.

By that logic, I should be allowed to vote in Germany, the UK, and anywhere else I happen to set foot...

[hecter]

I think the fact that they can't vote is the bigger flaw in the democratic system in this case.

By that logic, I should be allowed to vote in Germany, the UK, and anywhere else I happen to set foot...

I happen to agree with Gabon... Only citizens should be allowed to vote.

[Nobunaga]

... Let's all go to Germany and vote in some neo-nazi skinhead types, just to mess with them.

...

[BigBallinStalin]

... Let's all go to Germany and vote in some neo-nazi skinhead types, just to mess with them.

...

YEAH! And then bash them for all being Neo-Nazis! NEVER FORGET YOUR PAST SINS, GERMANY! EVER! And nevermind everyone else's past and current wrongdoings as well...

[MeDeFe]

I think the fact that they can't vote is the bigger flaw in the democratic system in this case.

By that logic, I should be allowed to vote in Germany, the UK, and anywhere else I happen to set foot...

If you moved to Germany you could vote, at least in local elections.

[bedub1]

I think the fact that they can't vote is the bigger flaw in the democratic system in this case.

By that logic, I should be allowed to vote in Germany, the UK, and anywhere else I happen to set foot...

If you moved to Germany you could vote, at least in local elections.

what if I'm there illegally as an illegal immigrant? could I still vote?

[MeDeFe]

I think the fact that they can't vote is the bigger flaw in the democratic system in this case.

By that logic, I should be allowed to vote in Germany, the UK, and anywhere else I happen to set foot...

If you moved to Germany you could vote, at least in local elections.

what if I'm there illegally as an illegal immigrant? could I still vote?

That's where the flaw begins to get really big, imo there shouldn't be any such thing as an "illegal immigrant".

[sexyflanders]

^The upside of that:
A couple million Americans could go to Rhodesia, vote out Mugabe, then he would get help from yet another American UN ambassador to have the election redone with miraculously different results and start executing every one of us who doesn't leave fast enough.

We get a whole new election to bitch about with the trouble of an election!
This whole "no illegal immigrant, anybody-can-vote-anywhere" idea has some merit........

... Let's all go to Germany and vote in some neo-nazi skinhead types, just to mess with them.

...

YEAH! And then bash them for all being Neo-Nazis! NEVER FORGET YOUR PAST SINS, GERMANY! EVER! And nevermind everyone else's past and current wrongdoings as well...

Wow, take it a little seriously why don't ya?

[Woodruff]

I think the fact that they can't vote is the bigger flaw in the democratic system in this case.

I'd have to disagree on that one. Should I have been allowed to vote in the German government simply because I lived there for six years with the military (which is a more "accepted" existence in-state than an illegal alien)? I wouldn't think so.

That's where the flaw begins to get really big, imo there shouldn't be any such thing as an "illegal immigrant".

Now in this I don't necessarily disagree with you. I've never properly understood our rationing out of immigration the way we do. We actually CAUSE a large majority of our illegal aliens.

[Skittles!]

... Let's all go to Germany and vote in some neo-nazi skinhead types, just to mess with them.

...

YEAH! And then bash them for all being Neo-Nazis! NEVER FORGET YOUR PAST SINS, GERMANY! EVER! And nevermind everyone else's past and current wrongdoings as well...

Wow, take it a little seriously why don't ya?

No, he's being sarcastic.

[PLAYER57832]

I think the fact that they can't vote is the bigger flaw in the democratic system in this case.

I'd have to disagree on that one. Should I have been allowed to vote in the German government simply because I lived there for six years with the military (which is a more "accepted" existence in-state than an illegal alien)? I wouldn't think so.

I believe few people in the military there really live in Germany, I think most live on base?

Anyway, its only local elections where you can vote. Germany is not the only place to allow this. I believe the Netherlands does as well. The idea is that while you should not have a say in who gets to head the government, your opinion is as valid as any of your neighbors on things like trash pickup, etc.

I can see both sides, but mostly agree with you and [gasp] Gabonx that voting is a citizen right.

[Woodruff]

I think the fact that they can't vote is the bigger flaw in the democratic system in this case.

I'd have to disagree on that one. Should I have been allowed to vote in the German government simply because I lived there for six years with the military (which is a more "accepted" existence in-state than an illegal alien)? I wouldn't think so.

I believe few people in the military there really live in Germany, I think most live on base?

Not in my experience. A healthy percentage lived on base, but not the majority. However, that was back in the pre-Euro days when the exchange rate was very much in our favor. These days, when it is not, it may be a very different thing.

[spurgistan]

Regardless of whether they can vote, we need to use illegal immigrants when calculating where services should be allocated. Otherwise, we are penalizing legal citizens who have reduced access to vital services. Or, be put in the position of have to constantly determine legal status whenever somebody uses a public service (highways?)

[PLAYER57832]

Regardless of whether they can vote, we need to use illegal immigrants when calculating where services should be allocated. Otherwise, we are penalizing legal citizens who have reduced access to vital services. Or, be put in the position of have to constantly determine legal status whenever somebody uses a public service (highways?)

It does not hurt that including the illegal people means more votes.

The truth is that either way you go, some people will be harmed. The REAL solution? Just elminate this whole "legal versus illegal" status question. Instead, focus on "if you are not a citizen, do you have the means to support yourself (including medical care, educating your children)? If you can do that without keeping citizens from jobs (that citizens want and are qualified to take), then you can stay. If not -- "good bye!".

That puts the burden where it belongs -- on the employers and employability.

Of course, anyone committing crimes is not living peacefully in our country and needs to go.