Nun agrees to save woman's life, is excommunicated

[PLAYER57832]

The Roman Catholic church has just excommunicated a nun for allowing a hospital to perform an abortion on a woman who would have died otherwise.

So, they give a complete pass to priests who molest boys, but excommunicate a nun who acts to save a human life.

DISGUSTING!

link to story: http://www.npr.org/templates/story/stor ... =126985072

[GabonX]

You want this, don't you? The HATE is swelling in you now.

Take your Jedi weapon. Use it, I AM UNARMED. Strike me down with it. GIVE IN TO YOUR ANGER.

With each passing moment you make yourself more my servant.

[GabonX]

[PLAYER57832]

This ruling does not stem from the Bible, from the teachings of Christ or even plain compassion. This ruling stems from a dogmatic and patriarchial system that, sadly, the Roman Catholic Church has too often shown itself to be. John Paul undid a lot of Roman Catholic harm, but this new guy.. takes the church back to places it never needed to be.

AND, this type of thing is precisely why so many of us are Protestant and NOT Roman Catholic.

Set aside the fact that even Roman Catholic doctrine allows procdures that harm a fetus to save the mother's life, that this ruling was made at the very time when we find out that the church not only looked aside and preached "forgiveness" to priests who repeatedly molested CHILDREN, effectively made the children victims of that heneous crime, driving them from the church.. this current church can have no other label than corruption. This ruling is blasphemy. I takes man's rules and tries to supplant GOD's rules because some human cannot fathom the realities of a life he will never, ever have to live or deal with in any true way.

[Pedronicus]

The Roman Catholic Church.

Abusing small children since 1054AD

[GabonX]

This ruling does not stem from the Bible

[Nobunaga]

... I normally avoid the religious argument threads, but I'll chime in here.

... From where do you, Player, draw the connection between abortion and child molestation? The Catholic church turned (/turns) a blind eye to child molestation, so that makes this current incident more henious? I don't follow. The article is making the same false connection.

... As for bashing the Catholics, feel free, I don't have a problem with that. I'm just trying to follow the connection here.

... Also, this woman was "too ill to be moved to an operating room", says the article, yet she was healthy enough to undergo abortion procedures? Something here doesn't add up.

...

[PLAYER57832]

... I normally avoid the religious argument threads, but I'll chime in here.

... From where do you, Player, draw the connection between abortion and child molestation? The Catholic church turned (/turns) a blind eye to child molestation, so that makes this current incident more henious? I don't follow. The article is making the same false connection.

There are few things more harmful to a child than child molestation. I, and many others would argue that death is preferable to many forms of abuse. Kill and a child remains.. where they are, prior to birth. Molest/harm the child and you drive them from God. Driving children from God, is the greatest crime within Christianity, even without any mitigating circumstances such as saving another's life.

Also add in that it was many, many priests who harmed, many, many individuals. This nun was acting on the advice of a doctor, took the teachings well into account and acted in what she felt was a fully FAITHFUL manner. The Priests, by contrast could not possibly have even considered their actions OK.

Excommunication is the harshest crime the Roman Catholic church can offer. So, they punish the lessor crime with their harshest punishment, while not just ignoring, but many would say all but condoning, the greater crime.

Alone, the two might not be related, but added into a long, long history of one judgement for men, another for women, that priests are always given much more consideration than any nun... and there is most definitely a very real connection.

. As for bashing the Catholics, feel free, I don't have a problem with that. I'm just trying to follow the connection here.

I don't bash Roman Catholics. I condemn the church on religious grounds. I also understand that such rulings make many practicing Roman Catholics uneasy. (and others accept it) The debate within the church, the debate between Protestants and Roman Catholics (note that "catholic rightly applies to all Christians who follow the cannonized new testament) and the debate between Christianity and non-Christians are all seperate issues and debates.

. Also, this woman was "too ill to be moved to an operating room", says the article, yet she was healthy enough to undergo abortion procedures? Something here doesn't add up.

Only that you don't know much of emergency medicine. Its not just ER drama that surgery is sometimes performed in the Emergency room.

Remember that a woman's uterus and such has a LOT of blood flow and that movement and shifting can cause major ruptures in some circumstances. I have not seen the records of this case, but I do know enough to know its quite plausible.

[GabonX]

Still.. You guys have to admit that it takes balls to actually instate a Nazi Pope.



I mean seriously, now everybody can say "Nazi Pope" and they're talking about an actual person..

[PLAYER57832]

Still.. You guys have to admit that it takes balls to actually instate a Nazi Pope.
[picture deleted]

I mean seriously, now everybody can say "Nazi Pope" and they're talking about an actual person..

A. That has nothing to do with the topic at hand
B. I may not like the guy as a religious leader, but he is hardly a Nazis.
C. It was his Bishop who made this pronouncement. As far as I know, the Pope has not yet made any official statement on this.
D. There is a big difference between saying "I don't believe this is correct religious doctrine". And calling the head of people's church, someone they consider second only to Christ, a Nazis.
That is low even for you, Gabon. Let's not have this thread locked, please.

[GabonX]

John Paul undid a lot of Roman Catholic harm, but this new guy.. takes the church back to places it never needed to be.

John Paul was a pretty amazing guy..

He rarely get's credit for what he did outside of Catholic circles, but I would argue that he was comparable to the characteristics of Gandhi that everybody praises him for. In reality, John Paul probably fits the perception of Gandhi better than Gandhi does...

This new guy is a transitional figure. They put him in because they know he's going to die soon, at which point they hope a better candidate becomes apparent..

[GabonX]

Still.. You guys have to admit that it takes balls to actually instate a Nazi Pope.
[picture deleted]

I mean seriously, now everybody can say "Nazi Pope" and they're talking about an actual person..

A. That has nothing to do with the topic at hand
B. I may not like the guy as a religious leader, but he is hardly a Nazis.
C. It was his Bishop who made this pronouncement. As far as I know, the Pope has not yet made any official statement on this.
D. There is a big difference between saying "I don't believe this is correct religious doctrine". And calling the head of people's church, someone they consider second only to Christ, a Nazis.
That is low even for you, Gabon. Let's not have this thread locked, please.

Give it a rest

I saved your boring thread from the very bottom of the page. You should be thanking me..

*Edit* And seriously, how many Pope's were in Hitler's Youth? I'm pretty sure it was just one...

[Timminz]

Isn't, "being in Hitler's Youth", the same as, "being a young German man during a certain time period"?

[GabonX]

Isn't, "being in Hitler's Youth", the same as, "being a young German man during a certain time period"?

Pretty much..

He was there and went through the motions. You can't rationally hold that against him but people are irrational, hence the Church has balls in making him Pope.

They opened themselves up to criticism unnecessarily for what many people consider (Catholics included from conversations I've had) a lack luster candidate.

[Nobunaga]

... I normally avoid the religious argument threads, but I'll chime in here.

... From where do you, Player, draw the connection between abortion and child molestation? The Catholic church turned (/turns) a blind eye to child molestation, so that makes this current incident more henious? I don't follow. The article is making the same false connection.

There are few things more harmful to a child than child molestation. I, and many others would argue that death is preferable to many forms of abuse. Kill and a child remains.. where they are, prior to birth. Molest/harm the child and you drive them from God. Driving children from God, is the greatest crime within Christianity, even without any mitigating circumstances such as saving another's life.

Also add in that it was many, many priests who harmed, many, many individuals. This nun was acting on the advice of a doctor, took the teachings well into account and acted in what she felt was a fully FAITHFUL manner. The Priests, by contrast could not possibly have even considered their actions OK.

Excommunication is the harshest crime the Roman Catholic church can offer. So, they punish the lessor crime with their harshest punishment, while not just ignoring, but many would say all but condoning, the greater crime.

Alone, the two might not be related, but added into a long, long history of one judgement for men, another for women, that priests are always given much more consideration than any nun... and there is most definitely a very real connection.

. As for bashing the Catholics, feel free, I don't have a problem with that. I'm just trying to follow the connection here.

I don't bash Roman Catholics. I condemn the church on religious grounds. I also understand that such rulings make many practicing Roman Catholics uneasy. (and others accept it) The debate within the church, the debate between Protestants and Roman Catholics (note that "catholic rightly applies to all Christians who follow the cannonized new testament) and the debate between Christianity and non-Christians are all seperate issues and debates.

. Also, this woman was "too ill to be moved to an operating room", says the article, yet she was healthy enough to undergo abortion procedures? Something here doesn't add up.

Only that you don't know much of emergency medicine. Its not just ER drama that surgery is sometimes performed in the Emergency room.

Remember that a woman's uterus and such has a LOT of blood flow and that movement and shifting can cause major ruptures in some circumstances. I have not seen the records of this case, but I do know enough to know its quite plausible.

... I understand the indirect connection - it's a comparison of punishment to level of crime/sin, in your (and others') mind(s). Makes more sense to me now.

... The deal about not being able to move her, but being abe to abort a fetus still sounds a bit suspicious. Of course I'm no doctor, but then again neither are you. Abortions are rather invasive, are they not. But hey, what do I know (and I've never watched ER, FYI, nor Gray's Anatomy, Three Rivers, etc... Despise drama).

...

[PLAYER57832]

... The deal about not being able to move her, but being abe to abort a fetus still sounds a bit suspicious. Of course I'm no doctor, but then again neither are you. Abortions are rather invasive, are they not. But hey, what do I know (and I've never watched ER, FYI, nor Gray's Anatomy, Three Rivers, etc... Despise drama).

I am not a doctor, but I was an EMT for a good many years and have taught first aid for much longer. Also, women tend to pay attention to issues of childbirth more than most men.

Anyway, in this, I am not guessing, I know. (that is, I don't know the particulars of this case, but I do know the general issue is often real).

[nesterdude]

I'm not even a catholic, but it's clear, through your word choice, caps and argument that you, player, have a sincere problem with the catholic church. My wife is a catholic and we talk often about this stigma, this skewed perspective, so many have toward the catholic church. It's really quite juvenile.
Who are you to be "Disgusted" with the organization? What effect does it have on your day to day? Are you a catholic, former catholic? What does their punitive process for their leaders (nuns or priests) mean to you?
All I'm reading, from you, and the article is a slanted view of an organization blinded by an agenda.

worry about your shit, in short.

[comic boy]

I'm not even a catholic, but it's clear, through your word choice, caps and argument that you, player, have a sincere problem with the catholic church. My wife is a catholic and we talk often about this stigma, this skewed perspective, so many have toward the catholic church. It's really quite juvenile.
Who are you to be "Disgusted" with the organization? What effect does it have on your day to day? Are you a catholic, former catholic? What does their punitive process for their leaders (nuns or priests) mean to you?
All I'm reading, from you, and the article is a slanted view of an organization blinded by an agenda.

worry about your shit, in short.

Thats why I respect personal faith but have little time for organised religion . It is absurd that so many people can believe in the same God and yet fight endlessly about who belongs in the right club.

[PLAYER57832]

I'm not even a catholic, but it's clear, through your word choice, caps and argument that you, player, have a sincere problem with the catholic church. My wife is a catholic and we talk often about this stigma, this skewed perspective, so many have toward the catholic church. It's really quite juvenile.
Who are you to be "Disgusted" with the organization? What effect does it have on your day to day? Are you a catholic, former catholic? What does their punitive process for their leaders (nuns or priests) mean to you?
All I'm reading, from you, and the article is a slanted view of an organization blinded by an agenda.

worry about your shit, in short.

Newsflash. I live in a town that is 80% Roman Catholic. The local hospital, the only one within 45 minutes drive, is Roman Catholic. A big portion of my family is Roman Catholic. Thes issues are VERY personal to me. This idiocy is why I was treated absolutely horribly when enduring 3 misscarriages prior to the birth of my son. Because I am rH negative, I had to go in to the hospital each and every time. The nurses could care less, their entire logic was I was getting "postpartum" treatment and had no child.. ergo I had an abortion. I was even reported to the state (statistical counts, not talking law enforcement) as having undergone the sole abortion in the county because my doctor advised me to have one miscarriage (child already dead, absolutely!) removed surgically. And, even today, I STILL hear comments about it. Never mind privacy!

You have EVERY right to believe as you wish, and worhip, teach your children to follow your rules. However, neither you nor the Pope has ANY right to tell me how to live my life or to impact what my children learn, or more correctly do not learn in school. The Roman Catholic church lost its right to pure religious respect when it decided to enter politics and dictate how the rest of us have to live our lives.

So, yes, it very much DOES impact the rest of us, and that is just plain wrong. You don't have to like the Protestant church, Jewish Religion Hindus or any others, but you DO, have an obligation to respect OUR views.

So, in short... YOU KEEP TO YOUR OWN SHIT AND STOP WORRYING ABOUT THE REST OF THE WORLD'S. You have no more right to claim moral superiority than anyone else. Frankly, HISTORY shows the Roman Catholic church has a heck of a lot to answer for. And.. I will continue to call them on it every chance I get.

[nesterdude]

I'm not even a catholic, but it's clear, through your word choice, caps and argument that you, player, have a sincere problem with the catholic church. My wife is a catholic and we talk often about this stigma, this skewed perspective, so many have toward the catholic church. It's really quite juvenile.
Who are you to be "Disgusted" with the organization? What effect does it have on your day to day? Are you a catholic, former catholic? What does their punitive process for their leaders (nuns or priests) mean to you?
All I'm reading, from you, and the article is a slanted view of an organization blinded by an agenda.

worry about your shit, in short.

Newsflash. I live in a town that is 80% Roman Catholic. The local hospital, the only one within 45 minutes drive, is Roman Catholic. A big portion of my family is Roman Catholic. Thes issues are VERY personal to me. This idiocy is why I was treated absolutely horribly when enduring 3 misscarriages prior to the birth of my son. Because I am rH negative, I had to go in to the hospital each and every time. The nurses could care less, their entire logic was I was getting "postpartum" treatment and had no child.. ergo I had an abortion. I was even reported to the state (statistical counts, not talking law enforcement) as having undergone the sole abortion in the county because my doctor advised me to have one miscarriage (child already dead, absolutely!) removed surgically. And, even today, I STILL hear comments about it. Never mind privacy!

You have EVERY right to believe as you wish, and worhip, teach your children to follow your rules. However, neither you nor the Pope has ANY right to tell me how to live my life or to impact what my children learn, or more correctly do not learn in school. The Roman Catholic church lost its right to pure religious respect when it decided to enter politics and dictate how the rest of us have to live our lives.

So, yes, it very much DOES impact the rest of us, and that is just plain wrong. You don't have to like the Protestant church, Jewish Religion Hindus or any others, but you DO, have an obligation to respect OUR views.

So, in short... YOU KEEP TO YOUR OWN SHIT AND STOP WORRYING ABOUT THE REST OF THE WORLD'S. You have no more right to claim moral superiority than anyone else. Frankly, HISTORY shows the Roman Catholic church has a heck of a lot to answer for. And.. I will continue to call them on it every chance I get.

You know I'm sure you're a very interesting person in life, but your common sense isn't really shining through.
i don't' know how you got to where you are, whether you have means or ability to move, or don't really care to. Frankly, yes they do have a right to effect your life, and will continue to do so. You see when groups of people move to communities, set up churches, or hospitals or schools or other forms of infrastructure, those physical parts of the community will become an extension of the community's belief system. Whether it's religion or love for Obama, or Heaven's Gate Cult, they will run their community with the perspectives and morals they decide on.
You on the other hand, think that you can live there, and expect the whole community to cater to you, instead of going somewhere else where more like minded people surround you.
So I'm sorry for your pain, but well, you should know better.

Everything has a history Player, and your angst toward the church is simply not seeing it for what it is today. I mean it's pretty clear it's a different organization(and to be honest I think they've sold out, but in this morally and socially relative world, they've fallen right in line).

I think it's kind of funny that people are so quick to be ready to burn the church but don't carry the same logic across the board: the kings and queens who murdered and subjugated countless numbers of generations throughout Europe, the imperialism of ancient Rome and Greece throughout the continent, Assyria, Babylonia, etc. How far back to do you go? Who's to blame?

Let's not play these pick and choose games. History is just that, history. Things, people, nations, organizations, change. See them for what they are, understand what they were, associate or don't associate, but do not force them to adhere to your will when you're just too stupid to move.

So continue your little crusade, I'm sure it will be as successful as the church's was so long ago.

[Nobunaga]

http://www.breitbart.com/article.php?id ... _article=1

... Obama sides withe the church with regard to child molestation cases.

... Whodda' thunkit?

...

[PLAYER57832]

You know I'm sure you're a very interesting person in life, but your common sense isn't really shining through.
i don't' know how you got to where you are, whether you have means or ability to move, or don't really care to. Frankly, yes they do have a right to effect your life, and will continue to do so. You see when groups of people move to communities, set up churches, or hospitals or schools or other forms of infrastructure, those physical parts of the community will become an extension of the community's belief system. Whether it's religion or love for Obama, or Heaven's Gate Cult, they will run their community with the perspectives and morals they decide on.

American was founded on religious freedom. I realize that a few people wish to tromp on those ideas and claim that only those with conservative Christian values have that right, but it is just not so.

You have every right to practice YOUR religion and live as YOU wish. You do not have the right to tell me and my family how to live our lives, as long as we stay within the law. Problem is, the Roman Catholic church wants to change the law.

You on the other hand, think that you can live there, and expect the whole community to cater to you, instead of going somewhere else where more like minded people surround you.
So I'm sorry for your pain, but well, you should know better.

Cut the crap. I certainly don't expect everyone to agree with me. As long as Bishops and Priests are teaching in their churches, are telling parishoners how to live.. that is their right. When they step outside that to threaten senators and other elected invididuals with excommunication, when they put pressure right along with Tobacco lobbyists, only they have better access because they are supposed to be a religious institution.. they step WELL outside the bounds of religion and into the realm of Theocracy.

Everything has a history Player, and your angst toward the church is simply not seeing it for what it is today. I mean it's pretty clear it's a different organization(and to be honest I think they've sold out, but in this morally and socially relative world, they've fallen right in line).

The Roman Catholic church is no more corrupt than any other, as a whole. The difference is that the patriarchial nature means it gets less correction, means it moves much, much more slowly to respond to those problems. Right now, it is coming to a head in very obvious ways, but that is only because the other churches have done a BIT better job of dealing with these issues all along and also because they don't operate as a unit the way the Roman Catholic church does, even within each denomination.

However, the Roman Catholic and the newer evangelical churches both are unique in pushing forward their personnal values in political ways, in ways that are not just about letting them do as they wish, but are about telling the rest of us how to live. No, that is NOT OK. It is no more OK than my telling you that you have to attend my church and live by the rules I set forth for my children.

I think it's kind of funny that people are so quick to be ready to burn the church but don't carry the same logic across the board: the kings and queens who murdered and subjugated countless numbers of generations throughout Europe, the imperialism of ancient Rome and Greece throughout the continent, Assyria, Babylonia, etc. How far back to do you go? Who's to blame?

Who said I am doing that?
As for "who is to blame". Humanity is prone to evil. Yet, as a society, we continue to progress forward.. not in a straight line, sadly, but forward. Right now, we are about to take quite a few steps backward, thanks in large part to the Roman Catholic church. Much of what John Paul created has been destroyed, by his own church.

[Woodruff]

Everything has a history Player, and your angst toward the church is simply not seeing it for what it is today.

I'm pretty sure she's seeing the Catholic church leadership as the Child-raping condoners that they are today, actually.

[Timminz]

Does anyone here not live within 100 kilometres of somewhere where there were numerous children abused, over the course of many years, by Catholic leaders in their community?

There's a very recent(ly exposed), and fairly large scandal at a local-ish Catholic church, and I live in a mostly protestant province.

Maybe I shouldn't assume. How many others have had this going on in their own community?

[Woodruff]

Does anyone here not live within 100 kilometres of somewhere where there were numerous children abused, over the course of many years, by Catholic leaders in their community?

To my knowledge (though admittedly I just moved back here last year, so I probably don't know), there hasn't been anything like this that has come out in the Lincoln, Nebraska area.