Which religion....

Norse · Post by **Norse** » Thu Sep 06, 2007 1:07 am

Which religion, in your humble opinions, has caused the most damage historically to the world?...

Vague, I know, but use your imaginations!

muy_thaiguy · Post by **muy_thaiguy** » Thu Sep 06, 2007 1:09 am

How about Communism, it has caused much more damage to the world then many religions combined, and it is an Atheist movement. So I guess that Atheism (in that way) has done the most damage.

Norse · Post by **Norse** » Thu Sep 06, 2007 1:13 am

High Guard · Post by **High Guard** » Thu Sep 06, 2007 1:21 am

muy_thaiguy wrote:How about Communism, it has caused much more damage to the world then many religions combined, and it is an Atheist movement. So I guess that Atheism (in that way) has done the most damage.

I laugh at your ignorance.....

Som General · Post by **Som General** » Thu Sep 06, 2007 1:36 am

I'd say christianity but islam is getting very close

and to the communism comment... hahaha
first off communism is not neccesarrilly inherently athiest. the real world communist examples just have been. secondly communism killed maybey 30 million poeple? maybey more im not sure how many died in china
now think about any religion
Ill use christianity as an example
witch hunts
crusades
terrorism
the destruction of the new world (i know it's a stretch, but religeos pretenses were used to cover many actions.)
the Inquisition
religeos persecutions
etc etc the list can go on and on

High Guard · Post by **High Guard** » Thu Sep 06, 2007 1:47 am

Som General wrote:I'd say christianity but islam is getting very close

and to the communism comment... hahaha
first off communism is not neccesarrilly inherently athiest. the real world communist examples just have been. secondly communism killed maybey 30 million poeple? maybey more im not sure how many died in china
now think about any religion
Ill use christianity as an example
witch hunts
crusades
terrorism
the destruction of the new world (i know it's a stretch, but religeos pretenses were used to cover many actions.)
the Inquisition
religeos persecutions
etc etc the list can go on and on

Thank you

Finally someone smart enough to see the truth.

Neutrino · Post by **Neutrino** » Thu Sep 06, 2007 1:59 am

muy_thaiguy wrote:How about Communism, it has caused much more damage to the world then many religions combined, and it is an Atheist movement. So I guess that Atheism (in that way) has done the most damage.

I cry for humanity :cry:

If you spent even the tinyest amount of time actually contemplating the USSR's and China's Communism, then you would realise that they were never Communist. Both were dictatorships, plain and simple. They call(ed) themselves 'Communist' because it is a convenient label; much better for morale than Totalitarianism.

Really people, think about what you are saying before you speak.

Skittles! · Post by **Skittles!** » Thu Sep 06, 2007 2:04 am

muy_thaiguy wrote:How about Communism, it has caused much more damage to the world then many religions combined, and it is an Atheist movement. So I guess that Atheism (in that way) has done the most damage.

Can we say

"How about Capitalism, it has caused much more damage to the world then many religions combined, and it is a Christian movement. So I guess that Christianity (in all ways) has done the most damage"

Pretty much the same thing, correct?

Som General · Post by **Som General** » Thu Sep 06, 2007 2:04 am

marx did state that it may be neccessarry for a dictatorship at the beggining stages of a communism... I'm not positive about that though. not saying that China was a or is a true communism. russia almost was close, then stalin came in

Neutrino · Post by **Neutrino** » Thu Sep 06, 2007 2:06 am

Skittles! wrote:
muy_thaiguy wrote:How about Communism, it has caused much more damage to the world then many religions combined, and it is an Atheist movement. So I guess that Atheism (in that way) has done the most damage.

Can we say

"How about Capitalism, it has caused much more damage to the world then many religions combined, and it is a Christian movement. So I guess that Christianity (in all ways) has done the most damage"

Pretty much the same thing, correct?

Pretty much. In fact, I'm sure Capitalism has done far more damage, to both the environment and the poor, than all of the 'Communist' countries put together.

Skittles! · Post by **Skittles!** » Thu Sep 06, 2007 2:07 am

Okay, to be serious, the most damaging religions would have to be..

Christianity
Judaism
Paganism

All of those are probably the most damaging in history. I don't think Islam isn't that damaging because many people just accepted Islam when it took over that area, like North Africa.

Som General · Post by **Som General** » Thu Sep 06, 2007 2:12 am

I don't know if paganism should count because it's not a uniform religion, and besides paganism was prominent in times with smaller numbers so therefore affected less poeple.

and for Islam only reason I put it up there as my second choice is just because it's been a conflict religion recently. however you are right historicly it has had little conflict. and its own conflict has generally been a reaction to christianity.

but Islam was responsible for a lot back when India was divided
and wt has judiasm done I'm not arguing for it but I can't recall any specific events

btw whats the rougue state

Skittles! · Post by **Skittles!** » Thu Sep 06, 2007 2:13 am

Som General wrote:I don't know if paganism should count because it's not a uniform religion, and besides paganism was prominent in times with smaller numbers so therefore affected less poeple.

and for Islam only reason I put it up there as my second choice is just because it's been a conflict religion recently. however you are right historicly it has had little conflict. and its own conflict has generally been a reaction to christianity.

but Islam was responsible for a lot back when India was divided

I mean Paganism as a whole. Mongols were Pagans, and they made the second largest known Empire in the world. Romans were Pagans (at the start) and they killed many civilizations.

Skittles! · Post by **Skittles!** » Thu Sep 06, 2007 2:14 am

Som General wrote:btw whats the rougue state

It's a Clan on this site. PM Xenhu and he'll tell you more.

reverend_kyle · Post by **reverend_kyle** » Thu Sep 06, 2007 2:45 am

definately those damn jews. They steal our monies.

Jenos Ridan · Post by **Jenos Ridan** » Thu Sep 06, 2007 2:53 am

Before Guiscard comes in here with some whiny pro-Islam appologist tirade, Islam is the number one cause of all wars, atrocities, ethnic cleasings and deaths in the following regions/times:

Spain, from the 700's to the 1400's

Italy, same.

Greece, from the 1400's to the 1920's

The Balkans/Yugoslavia, from the 1500's to today

Most of the Middle East, even to this day since the dawn of Islam under the very Prophet Mohammad himself.

Most of Sub-Saharan Africa, not sure when the killing started but Darfur is a major site of ethnic cleasing

Indonesia, like Africa I'm not sure but people are killed by Islamic paramilitaries on a regular basis (Where is the UN when you need them. Honestly, they're worse than rural police in response times)

In fact, that Koran, the Hadith and the Sharia laws all instruct converts to commit acts of violence in the 'Dar al'Harb'. That is to say, all non-Muslims. When people say 'Islam is a religion of peace', it is like saying 'Nazism was friendly to jews, just Hitler hijacked it for his uses'.

If you doubt this all, do some more reading.

reverend_kyle · Post by **reverend_kyle** » Thu Sep 06, 2007 3:05 am

Jenos Ridan wrote:Before Guiscard comes in here with some whiny pro-Islam appologist tirade, Islam is the number one cause of all wars, atrocities, ethnic cleasings and deaths in the following regions/times:

Spain, from the 700's to the 1400's

Italy, same.

Greece, from the 1400's to the 1920's

The Balkans/Yugoslavia, from the 1500's to today

Most of the Middle East, even to this day since the dawn of Islam under the very Prophet Mohammad himself.

Most of Sub-Saharan Africa, not sure when the killing started but Darfur is a major site of ethnic cleasing

Indonesia, like Africa I'm not sure but people are killed by Islamic paramilitaries on a regular basis (Where is the UN when you need them. Honestly, they're worse than rural police in response times)

In fact, that Koran, the Hadith and the Sharia laws all instruct converts to commit acts of violence in the 'Dar al'Harb'. That is to say, all non-Muslims. When people say 'Islam is a religion of peace', it is like saying 'Nazism was friendly to jews, just Hitler hijacked it for his uses'.

If you doubt this all, do some more reading.

Jews started it.

comic boy · Post by **comic boy** » Thu Sep 06, 2007 3:47 am

Jenos Ridan wrote:Before Guiscard comes in here with some whiny pro-Islam appologist tirade, Islam is the number one cause of all wars, atrocities, ethnic cleasings and deaths in the following regions/times:

Spain, from the 700's to the 1400's

Italy, same.

Greece, from the 1400's to the 1920's

The Balkans/Yugoslavia, from the 1500's to today

Most of the Middle East, even to this day since the dawn of Islam under the very Prophet Mohammad himself.

Most of Sub-Saharan Africa, not sure when the killing started but Darfur is a major site of ethnic cleasing

Indonesia, like Africa I'm not sure but people are killed by Islamic paramilitaries on a regular basis (Where is the UN when you need them. Honestly, they're worse than rural police in response times)

In fact, that Koran, the Hadith and the Sharia laws all instruct converts to commit acts of violence in the 'Dar al'Harb'. That is to say, all non-Muslims. When people say 'Islam is a religion of peace', it is like saying 'Nazism was friendly to jews, just Hitler hijacked it for his uses'.

If you doubt this all, do some more reading.

Even if we accept your laughably one sided and inaccurate examples,they pale into utter insignificance compared to the genocide inflicted on the Jews for much of the last 2000 years. Extraordinary also that you paint the Spanish as victims when in the name of God they obliterated the native peoples of Central and South America !!!!

Simonov · Post by **Simonov** » Thu Sep 06, 2007 4:03 am

a very interesting debate. but i think the original norse's question has a terrible flaw to it. no religion is bad in it's core and couldn't be blamed for many atrocities done in it's name. communism is very similar to religion in this perspective.

it think neutrino led the debate in somewhat right direction. religious wars and conflicts during the history had much simpler goal in it's core - taking of wealth and land or spreading the realm of influence of certain world power.

look at the crusade wars - fictive reason was liberation of holy land but real one was to loot the riches and conquer the land in palestine. same was with forced conversion of indians and african nations to christianity - real reason was to grab the land and wealth in this regions for european christian nations. spread of islam was a tool to spread the influence of turkish empire while they said the the goal was to defeat unbelievers and spread the religion of desert prophet.

so basically you have 2 sides in any conflict of such nature. one is a person or group in power who wants to increase their wealth or spread it's realm of influence. other one is a large mass of people who this group uses to achieve their goal - and a perfect tool for this is religion/ideology.

look at communism in practice - they taught us about equality and brotherhood yet poor masses, simple people worked and worked for basically no profit to achieve this while high-ranked party members sat on their asses and grabbed the wealth acquired by the working class. this was no new social order it was old one - capitalism just disguised.

nazism was also similar to this except it's ideology was vile to the core.

so basically underlying all this events is hardcore capitalist mentality - to grab as much money and power by any means necessary (i'm not saying capitalism can't function fine with strong social component - look at scandinavian countries). ponder about this and you'll see i have a point.

Avron · Post by **Avron** » Thu Sep 06, 2007 4:17 am

This has got to be the most opinionated fucking topic. Can't we just say organized religion as a whole?

But still all give my two cents.

Paganism, it out does anything you think pre-modern to post-modern religions have. Dawn of civilization, mankind slaughters unknown numbers of human in the regions of Africa and the Middle East in the name of many known and unknown pagan gods. Skip ahead to the Formation of Old Egypt, bear with me I'm rusty on my exact dates, around 2600 BC after the slaughter of unknown amounts of people during the early Pre-dynastic periods of Egypt the Old Kingdom is formed under the rule of Djoser, where gonna go with this and not get into the debate about the former of Egypt, Hundreds of thousands of slaves are taken after brutal wars in which estimates reach the hundreds of thousands killed by the sword. Egypt continues on this track and it falls and declines spanning over 3000 years to finally crumbling to Roman influence(this is broad I know).
Estimated total death at the hands of the Egyptians: 8 Million(Yes its speculated they killed this many people even in those times)
Civilizations Destroyed: 16

The Romans well enough of you know their story.
Estimated deaths at the hands of the Romans: Tens of Millions
Civilizations Destroyed: With lost Roman records this is sort of unknown. (correct me if I'm wrong here, I was told that with the many sacks of Rome many documents where lost to fires and pillaging.)
The Romans of course would lead to the devlopment of the mass modern Christianity to the power they held and where able to spread it far and wide, so in all reality should there wanton destruction be credited as well to the Romans.

Greece
One of the bloodiest tales ever told. The amount of destruction brought by the Greek civilization upon the world is ten fold what Christianity has done, many things during Alexanders reign are still unaccounted for.
I would personally estimated the death toll from the Greeks to range in over 60 million people killed over the span of their empire and a unfathomable amount of Civilizations and cultures destroyed. They talk of armies of hundreds of thousands marching on armies of hundreds of thousands and whole cultures being obliterated. So this number is not un reasonable.

The Barbarians
I don't know as much as I wish I could. All I know is the there is no clue to the amount of cultures and people murdered by European and Asian tribes. Who knows the effect the truly had, how many peoples they may have wiped out. How much culture was lost to them.

South American's
Aztec. I'm unsure here as well, I just know that their where sacrifices by the hundreds daily at mounts and thousands per month. Whats the per capita sacrifice ration on something like that.

These are just a few, there are so many Pagan civilizations that are barely known and some that are just uncovered through old documents. The amount of influence Paganism had on the human race will never be undone. Ever, the death toll from Paganism could easily each into the Billions over time spans of the 5000 years it was the major religion type for most of the world. The amount of entire cultures of people gone from is influence may never be known.

Norse · Post by **Norse** » Thu Sep 06, 2007 4:28 am

hehe, this one has really got you thinking, eh?

Good posts

Skittles! · Post by **Skittles!** » Thu Sep 06, 2007 4:33 am

Ha, I knew Paganism has damaged the world a lot.

Norse · Post by **Norse** » Thu Sep 06, 2007 4:51 am

But has it?

Maybe when you think in terms of a savage barbarian-esque civilisation. where tribes are competing for food, land and more importantly, hot sexy mamma's with large breaticles and child bearing hips. But this was in a dog-eat-dog darwanian world, if the barbarians (im talking more pointedly towards the european/african tribes here) were to just sit back, be non-violent and submissive, and leave each other be, then there will have been no descendants from those tribes...FACT!

However, yes, there were mass suicides in the name of gods and such in certain pagan-religions, but is this really a world-destroying trait? It is not as though they were genocidal/domineering/subliminally intrusive.

The pagan civilisations, were actually times that I wish I had lived in myself....where a man can really be a man.... :wink:

I do not believe we are just talking about deaths caused here anyhow.

Howabout forcing said religion down other peoples throats, as a part of a wicked an evil scheme for world domination and autonomy?

AlgyTaylor · Post by **AlgyTaylor** » Thu Sep 06, 2007 6:52 am

Religions don't kill people, people kill people.

Wouldn't like to judge ... but one thing that does occur to me is that the majority of 'Christian' nations (most of Europe & the Americas) are moderate. The majority of 'Islamic' nations aren't moderate. Maybe I'm making a major oversight, but I'd judge those two religions to be the biggest/most influential of them all. Perhaps Judaism, but that's not widespread as a state religion and it'd be unfair to judge one way or the other based on one country.

jako · Post by **jako** » Thu Sep 06, 2007 12:22 pm

hell, cant we just say the idea of religion in itself is just as damaging to the world as any one religion.

believing that our actions are justified because of some higher being's "will" for us to commint horrendous acts upon others is idiocy and that we are better off without religion. there would be no killings in the name of this god, or sacrifics to these gods. religion spawns hatred and blinds u from knowing whats good or bad. the morales of each religion is different and thats y we have conflicts between religions. sacrificing people in one religion is viewed as a sacred thing, but to another its inhumane. so clearly religion as a whole is whats devastating the world.