Suggestion: Extended Fog of War

[KidBomb]

Concise description:

• Add an "Extended" selection for Fog of War (so you can choose Extended, Yes, or No).
• This option will eliminate some of the information displayed during a Fog of War match to make the games more secretive.

Specifics:

• The Game Log will display your own actions and your teammates' actions, but NOT your opponents' actions.
• The Game Log will also inform when an opponent is kicked out or eliminated (but not by who).
• There will be no "playing" icon next to your opponent when he/she is playing, so their playtime cannot be measured. (Maybe)
• The number of cards each person is holding would no longer be visible.
• Lastly, one of the two should happen:
• -- More preferably, the map doesn't change during your opponents' turns until the start of your next turn. This may be difficult to implement, though.
• -- If the above cannot work, the map won't be displayed at all until the start of your next turn. This will be easy to implement, but won't allow players to plan before their turns.
• All other aspects will be identical to the regular Fog of War.

This will improve the following aspects of the site:

• In a normal Fog of War, it is still VERY easy to judge who is in the lead, adding a target to whoever has "received 10 reinforcements for 32 territories". This option will force players to make guesses based only on what they can see.
• The message "___ has received x reinforcements for holding ___" tells the players if someone is holding a continent. And since it tells you the amount they earn, it is easy to tell WHICH continent they hold. This makes it pretty obvious where players are, which defeats the purpose of a Fog of War.
• Eliminating the playing icon isn't necessary, but it will prevent people from measuring other players' playtimes, thus judging who is the strongest or weakest.
• By not displaying the map, it will prevent players from hitting refresh over and over while they watch their opponents' actions.
• I believe this option will make the game more interesting. You will have to constantly make educated guesses based only on your surroundings. More indepth strategies will emerge. For example, a player could hold a large continent but only keep 1 to 3 armies on the borders to trick other players, while they pile reinforcements in the center.

Edit: Forgot to add the info about cards!
Edit: Changed the title from "Advanced" to "Extended" (thanks for the suggestion, Joodoo)

[Joodoo]

whoa, crazy stuff...
I like, I like

[Visaoni]

For the most part I agree. I'm not sure about not displaying the map though. The inability to plan unless time is currently running on your term seems a little harsh. I'm not sure if anybody plays speed fog games, but if they did...

The one thing I really agree with though is the change to the game log. As it is right now, a significant portion of playing fog games is simply scouring the game log trying to figure out what everybody is up to, where they are, and how strong they are. I think removing it would not only add in more strategy to fog, it would also make it more playable for people who cannot devote that much time to the game log, or who simply don't fancy staring at a wall of text trying to figure out what is going on. Plus I tend to occasionally wonder how you know such insider knowledge such as troops deployed while not even knowing as information as obvious as to who holds what country. Not that it matters, but it can be distracting while staring at text.

[Joodoo]

I think this should be renamed "Extended Fog of War" since calling it advanced might mean that players who don't play "Advanced Fog of War" are not as good as the players who do.

[KidBomb]

Visaoni: That's a good point about speed games. Leaving out the map is only to prevent record-obsessed players from watching other players during their turns, but I doubt anyone would have that kind of patience, so it's not too important.

Joodoo: Good suggestion. I hadn't thought about it that way.

[Simon Viavant]

I sorta like the idea, but:

• In a normal Fog of War, it is still VERY easy to judge who is in the lead, adding a target to whoever has "received 10 reinforcements for 32 territories". This option will force players to make guesses based only on what they can see.

Wouldn't that make it a lot more luck?

[KidBomb]

Simon Viavant: There would be some more luck involved, sure, but a smart player should be able to scope out the battlefield and see the player's power levels. By taking territories with many borders, a player could see if another player is dominating. Another strategy would be to maintain a one- or two-territory empire away from your main empire just to keep track of other player's moves.
It would definitely change the overall strategy of the game.

[Visaoni]

Exactly. To some degree there would be more guessing, but the inability to see if somebody has, for example, SA via the game log changes a lot. You might see a 5 on Brazil. Do they hold SA and just have a large stack sitting on Peru (or Venezuela if somebody has a large stack on Central America so most of their forces are there, or maybe they have taken Central America and using it as a scout/decoy) waiting to smash whoever breaks them, or are they just trying to take control of SA and maybe you can wrest it from them? Perhaps they just took over SA and can't resist with much if you take Brazil. Who knows? You would have to guess by other things you could see, what they've done throughout the game that you could see, and probably what round it is, not to mention card type and I suppose maybe even fortification type.

Now I just typed a short paragraph about, more or less, one territory. See the possibilities?

[KidBomb]

Thanks for very detailed example, Visaoni

Details are, of course, up for debate if anyone wants to chime in...

[Visaoni]

Thanks for very detailed example, Visaoni

Details are, of course, up for debate if anyone wants to chime in...

Oh, I'm sure they are. I could probably argue against my own example, or at least a good portion of it.

[KidBomb]

I really think this idea will provide stronger psychological warfare.

I'd appreciate others' inputs for making this idea work.

[cicero]

I sorta like the idea, but:

• In a normal Fog of War, it is still VERY easy to judge who is in the lead, adding a target to whoever has "received 10 reinforcements for 32 territories". This option will force players to make guesses based only on what they can see.

Wouldn't that make it a lot more luck?

That's my main concern at the moment too ...

[Natewolfman]

Ive always wanted something like this but never really voiced it... im in full agreement for all (hiding the map may be hard for programming purposes... but id be in favor of that too) good idea!

[Natewolfman]

sorry to double post, but question

what about cards? like say in an escalateing game... i dont use bob, so if i cant see that card sets were turned in i wont know how much my sets are worth...

[PLAYER57832]

For the most part I agree. I'm not sure about not displaying the map though. The inability to plan unless time is currently running on your term seems a little harsh. I'm not sure if anybody plays speed fog games, but if they did...

Since this would be an optionm, would that matter? If it doesn't work well in speed, folks won't play this way in speed games. [/quote]

I think this should be renamed "Extended Fog of War" since calling it advanced might mean that players who don't play "Advanced Fog of War" are not as good as the players who do.

A small point, but perhaps valid. Although this IS a harder version.

what about cards? like say in an escalateing game... i dont use bob, so if i cant see that card sets were turned in i wont know how much my sets are worth...

This is the one that really concerns me. If Bob lets folks see stuff that other people don't, that is going to be an unreasonable advantage. I understand that these programs are available to everyone in a sense, but not everyone has Firefox or wants/can have a bunch of downloads on their computer.

If this is implemented, I would say the card count .. that is the amount available in escalating ... should be available in the log, as well as any other information readily available in Bob.

[KidBomb]

cicero: There would be more luck, sure, but the overall strategy of the game will change to accommodate that. The game would be less about taking out the largest target, and more about tricking others (into thinking you aren't a threat). If someone sees you only have 1 army on your border, they might leave you be. OR they could try to take you out (for your cards or points in Terminator) only to be trapped by a stack of armies in the next country.

Similarly, if you see only a few armies on someone else's border, and you notice that the player is a colonel, you might come to the assumption that they're trying to trick you, so you have to wait and build your armies before you attack them. Alternatively, you could attack around their country to scout their situation. In the end, it adds more "risk" to the game, but a smart player should be able to figure out the situation fairly well.


Natewolfman/PLAYER57832: I'm not that familiar with Bob, but that WOULD mess up the card counts. I guess it wouldn't change the strategy too much if that information was present to everyone. Does Bob tell how many cards each player has, or just the amount available in Escalating?

[Natewolfman]

Does Bob tell how many cards each player has, or just the amount available in Escalating?

im unsure, prob both, bob tells just about everything

[ccm87]

nah, sorry i dont like any of that at all...

[FabledIntegral]

Make it an option sure, but it would be an option imo only low ranks would use. This would make it rely nearly completely on luck, and almost completely devoid of strategy. it depends on how good your dice were, and if you got lucky or not when making a kill. Where's the strategy in that?

[yeti_c]

This is the one that really concerns me. If Bob lets folks see stuff that other people don't, that is going to be an unreasonable advantage. I understand that these programs are available to everyone in a sense, but not everyone has Firefox or wants/can have a bunch of downloads on their computer.

If this is implemented, I would say the card count .. that is the amount available in escalating ... should be available in the log, as well as any other information readily available in Bob.

BOB doesn't magic information out of thin air... it reads it from the Log... if the Log is changed for this new game type... chances are - BOB won't be able to calculate a number of things that it currently does in current FOW...

Note that there are other things that you can work out that BOB doesn't show you...

i.e. if player A turns in 3 cards - and gets 2*2 bonus armies... and you can see 1 territory and know that it doesn't get any armies - you know which territories he has just got those bonuses on... similarly - if he turns in 3 cards and gets no bonus armies - you know he's not holding any of those terriotires... BOB doesn't tell you any of this.

C.

[sfhbballnut]

is that the same one that counts how many territories each player has? I've got a friend who uses that feature and its a little obnoxious, i'm sitting here guessing how expanded someone is in the fog, and he knows exactly how much territory they have, I'm probably gonna bite the bullet and get firefox and few plugins myself when I feel like it anyway, was just pointing out if I had even less information and he still had stuff like that it'd be pretty ridiculous, moot point if a new game mode could or would diable stuff like that

[KidBomb]

Make it an option sure, but it would be an option imo only low ranks would use. This would make it rely nearly completely on luck, and almost completely devoid of strategy. it depends on how good your dice were, and if you got lucky or not when making a kill. Where's the strategy in that?

It depends on how good your dice were, like the regular mode, and if you got lucky or not when making a kill, like regular mode, but it will also add the skill of gaining information, which is NOT in the regular mode. Maintaining a "scout" territory outside of your main empire, fighting over territories with many boundries, attacking borders to see how many armies are piled in the center, hiding behind neutral territories while piling territories, having a "strand" of territories instead of a continent (keeping the other players in check), using cards early so players won't want to target you, using cards later to get a bigger bonus but risking an ambush. These will all be strategies within this mode, and I'm sure many more will come with experience. Just because it doesn't have the same strategy as a normal game, it doesn't mean it has no strategy at all.

[Mr_Adams]

9/10 of these have been suggested 9-10 times before...

[yeti_c]

is that the same one that counts how many territories each player has? I've got a friend who uses that feature and its a little obnoxious, i'm sitting here guessing how expanded someone is in the fog, and he knows exactly how much territory they have, I'm probably gonna bite the bullet and get firefox and few plugins myself when I feel like it anyway, was just pointing out if I had even less information and he still had stuff like that it'd be pretty ridiculous, moot point if a new game mode could or would diable stuff like that

You have the information right in front of you...

BOB just makes it easier to read.

C.

[Androidz]

great idea.PP: