World Leader of Christians Rehabilitates Nazi Supporter

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mpjh
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World Leader of Christians Rehabilitates Nazi Supporter

Post by mpjh »

Pope Benedict XVI on Saturday, in the middle of the Jewish Sabbath, lifted the excommunications on four bishops of the traditionalist Society of St Pius X, including the English Old Wykehamist Bishop Richard Williamson.

In an interview broadcast on Swedish television last week, Bishop Williamson said: "There were no gas chambers." He also stated that he did not believe six million had died, and the number was between 200,000 and 300,000. In the past, he has endorsed the anti-Semitic forgery The Protocols of the Elders of Zion


True colors shown again.
Zeppflyer
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Re: World Leader of Christians Rehabilitates Nazi Supporter

Post by Zeppflyer »

First off, as much as we Catholics might still wish that it was that way, the Pope is hardly the leader of all, or even most, of the world's Christians.

Second; What exactly do you mean by true colors? That Benedict is a Nazi? The man who has done more for ecumenism and interfaith dialogue with Jews and Muslims than just about any major religious figure in modern history? Or do you mean that the Catholic Church is still secretly an antisemetic organization?

It is unfortunate, but the Pope is bound by Canon Law just as the President is (supposed to be) bound by the Constitution. He had to reinstate these men based on their agreement with religious doctrine, not politics, no matter how disgusting they may be. I agree that he certainly could have handled the situation better by explaining that. Certainly, Williamson will not be given a position of authority or be allowed to speak officially for the Church.
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Re: World Leader of Christians Rehabilitates Nazi Supporter

Post by Artimis »

Zeppflyer wrote:First off, as much as we Catholics might still wish that it was that way, the Pope is hardly the leader of all, or even most, of the world's Christians.

Beat me too it Zeppflyer, was about to point out that the Pope is Catholic and not Christian.

I'm just glad I'm not religious, I think I'd be offended otherwise. Beware the thin ice beneath your feet mjph.
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Re: World Leader of Christians Rehabilitates Nazi Supporter

Post by joecoolfrog »

Artimis wrote:
Zeppflyer wrote:First off, as much as we Catholics might still wish that it was that way, the Pope is hardly the leader of all, or even most, of the world's Christians.

Beat me too it Zeppflyer, was about to point out that the Pope is Catholic and not Christian.

I'm just glad I'm not religious, I think I'd be offended otherwise. Beware the thin ice beneath your feet mjph.


The Catholic church is Christian you realise;)
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Re: World Leader of Christians Rehabilitates Nazi Supporter

Post by Snorri1234 »

Zeppflyer wrote:First off, as much as we Catholics might still wish that it was that way, the Pope is hardly the leader of all, or even most, of the world's Christians.


True. Allthough he is still the leader of quite a few christians.
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Re: World Leader of Christians Rehabilitates Nazi Supporter

Post by mpjh »

There are approximately 1.2 billion Roman Catholics worldwide. I'd say that is a lot of Christians.
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Re: World Leader of Christians Rehabilitates Nazi Supporter

Post by Artimis »

joecoolfrog wrote:The Catholic church is Christian you realise;)


That being the case, didn't Jesus say something to the tune of "Love thy enemy as thy neighbour", or something like that? In which case the Pope is showing forgiveness for past transgressions. That is a major part of Christian/Catholic faith I'm sure. Quite far removed from 'showing their true colours'.
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Re: World Leader of Christians Rehabilitates Nazi Supporter

Post by Johnny Rockets »

Edited out.

Not worth the argument.

J
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Re: World Leader of Christians Rehabilitates Nazi Supporter

Post by Johnny Rockets »

Yeah it is.

Cannot the Pope then help change cannon law to bring it up to a more modern relevance to issues that play out in the here and now?

Like preaching against condoms in an aids stricken continent?
Like not just "showing forgiveness" towards child molesting priests but handing them over to the authorities?
Link not tolerating bigots or nazi's that are preaching to your flock?

Bound by Cannon Law.

Change the damn thing perhaps?

The Constitution can be amended, laws can be re written.
Even God mellowed out in the New Testament.

Is it not just a question of will? Or whats right?



J
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Re: World Leader of Christians Rehabilitates Nazi Supporter

Post by Zeppflyer »

Johnny Rockets wrote:Yeah it is.

Cannot the Pope then help change cannon law to bring it up to a more modern relevance to issues that play out in the here and now?

Like preaching against condoms in an aids stricken continent?
Like not just "showing forgiveness" towards child molesting priests but handing them over to the authorities?
Link not tolerating bigots or nazi's that are preaching to your flock?

Bound by Cannon Law.

Change the damn thing perhaps?

The Constitution can be amended, laws can be re written.
Even God mellowed out in the New Testament.

Is it not just a question of will? Or whats right?

J


The Pope cannot just change Law at a whim. After all, we believe that it is not a creation of men, like the Constitution, but a codification of the Will of God. It can only be changed when we think that we are misinterpreting Him.

As to the specific objections;
The first, there are plenty of forums here on abortion and why we believe that contraception is taking a human life. We have plenty of other places to debate it. Convince us there, and the argument changes. Not to mention the tens of thousands of Catholic (and other Christian) missionaries in Africa running schools, hospitals, orphanages, development programs, etc. and the millions (maybe billions, I'd need figures) of dollars that the Church sends their every year in aid.

To the second; yeah, it was very poorly handled and the Pope has admitted that the Church did not follow either the spirit or letter of our own laws there. And boy are we paying for it. The new rules on child protection are incredibly tight. The amount spent on training and other measures to insure that this does not happen again is huge.

To the third, check the post above.
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Re: World Leader of Christians Rehabilitates Nazi Supporter

Post by PLAYER57832 »

Zeppflyer wrote:First off, as much as we Catholics might still wish that it was that way, the Pope is hardly the leader of all, or even most, of the world's Christians.

Second; What exactly do you mean by true colors? That Benedict is a Nazi? The man who has done more for ecumenism and interfaith dialogue with Jews and Muslims than just about any major religious figure in modern history?

I thought Pope Paul had this title?
Zeppflyer wrote:It is unfortunate, but the Pope is bound by Canon Law just as the President is (supposed to be) bound by the Constitution. He had to reinstate these men based on their agreement with religious doctrine, not politics, no matter how disgusting they may be. I agree that he certainly could have handled the situation better by explaining that. Certainly, Williamson will not be given a position of authority or be allowed to speak officially for the Church.

This does explain it a bit, though I still would say declaiming a truth is rather going against the commandments ... and politics aside, that IS a breach of religious doctrine. However, I am not Roman Catholic, never mind an expert in Roman Catholic doctrine.

And yes, this is yet one more reason WHY I am not a Roman Catholic (though I AM catholic, thank you very much!)
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Re: World Leader of Christians Rehabilitates Nazi Supporter

Post by mpjh »

Yes, Benedict is a Nazi sympathizer. He was a member of the Hitler Youth organization. He now rehabilitates Nazi apologist priests. Yes he cannot deny his true colors.
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Re: World Leader of Christians Rehabilitates Nazi Supporter

Post by PLAYER57832 »

mpjh wrote:Yes, Benedict is a Nazi sympathizer. He was a member of the Hitler Youth organization. He now rehabilitates Nazi apologist priests. Yes he cannot deny his true colors.


Very sad, if true.

But while 1.2 million is a large number of Christians, no where near that number believe the Haulocaust did not happen. And, those who do are hardly all Roman Catholic. I am Lutheran. Lutherans have been rightfully indicted on this very matter also, but that in no way means I, or my family are a Nazis simpathizers.
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Re: World Leader of Christians Rehabilitates Nazi Supporter

Post by mpjh »

I never claimed that Benedict's Nazi leanings were an indictment of all Christians, let alone all Catholics. That does not relieve any Christian of the obligation to speak out against his actions.
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Re: World Leader of Christians Rehabilitates Nazi Supporter

Post by PLAYER57832 »

mpjh wrote:I never claimed that Benedict's Nazi leanings were an indictment of all Christians, let alone all Catholics. That does not relieve any Christian of the obligation to speak out against his actions.

Fair enough, and true, though I am not sure that intent was clear from your previous postings.

At any rate, this should not be swept under any rug.
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Re: World Leader of Christians Rehabilitates Nazi Supporter

Post by Napoleon Ier »

I don't see how an opinion on a historical and technical question has any relevance whatsoever to a series of 1988 excommunications on a pastoral and internal matter within the Church.

This has been hugely positive, if only because the Church's political officials have realized that overtures to dangerous Zionist organizations that whinge about the holocaust to justify any of their absurd positions are a mistake.

Image

It is furthermore encouraging to think that we may move toward a less modernist, worldly liturgy through the Reconciliation of these fine people of the SSPX, to whom I for one, extend a big "Welcome Home".
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Re: World Leader of Christians Rehabilitates Nazi Supporter

Post by Zeppflyer »

mpjh wrote:I never claimed that Benedict's Nazi leanings were an indictment of all Christians, let alone all Catholics. That does not relieve any Christian of the obligation to speak out against his actions.


Which actions? Readmitting an idiot who had split with the Church on doctrinal grounds and publicly repudiating his unrelated idiocy? Or working with Jewish leaders to foster better understanding between our faiths?

A boy in Nazi Germany didn't really have a choice about joining the Hitler youth. Heck, my neighbor when I was young was a former member. The most Naziish thing he ever did was comparing the Home Owners' Association in the subdivision that he later moved to to the SS. Is being in the Hitler Youth enough to convict Benedict, or is there other evidence? If the first, are all former members of the Weeremacht and Hitler Youth Nazi supporters? Were he a member of the SS, I would concede the point, but his actions during the war do not support his being a Nazi.
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Re: World Leader of Christians Rehabilitates Nazi Supporter

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Well Answered Zep Flyer: ( The Pope cannot just change Law at a whim. After all, we believe that it is not a creation of men, like the Constitution, but a codification of the Will of God. It can only be changed when we think that we are misinterpreting Him.)

However, feeding and educating the poor in Africa so they can die of aids with pure souls as young adults is tough to think that this would be God's will. They are being educated that condoms are a sin, and a mortal one at that. Abstinance is what is pushed and it's obvious with the mortality rates that this aproach is not very helpful. The physical presence that the catholic missionaries have in the field there are very much the best educational delivery system to protect the population. This point of view then that condoms are wrong enable a massive amount of deaths. I cannot construe that this is Good, or the wishes of a loving God.

If Cannon law is the codification of the Will of God, then is has to be that somewhere and somewhen, this was divinely inspired from mind to pen to paper.
(This is the same for the written word of the bible correct? And please let me know if I'm off base here...)
So thus can they not review and take the stance that a misinterpretation has taken place?
It would be progressive and an inspiration to shape a belief structure such as Catholicism to a point where no harm was being done......by action or inaction.

Appologies if I'm getting offensive.

J
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Re: World Leader of Christians Rehabilitates Nazi Supporter

Post by Zeppflyer »

Johnny Rockets wrote:Well Answered Zep Flyer: ( The Pope cannot just change Law at a whim. After all, we believe that it is not a creation of men, like the Constitution, but a codification of the Will of God. It can only be changed when we think that we are misinterpreting Him.)

However, feeding and educating the poor in Africa so they can die of aids with pure souls as young adults is tough to think that this would be God's will. They are being educated that condoms are a sin, and a mortal one at that. Abstinance is what is pushed and it's obvious with the mortality rates that this aproach is not very helpful. The physical presence that the catholic missionaries have in the field there are very much the best educational delivery system to protect the population. This point of view then that condoms are wrong enable a massive amount of deaths. I cannot construe that this is Good, or the wishes of a loving God.

If Cannon law is the codification of the Will of God, then is has to be that somewhere and somewhen, this was divinely inspired from mind to pen to paper.
(This is the same for the written word of the bible correct? And please let me know if I'm off base here...)
So thus can they not review and take the stance that a misinterpretation has taken place?
It would be progressive and an inspiration to shape a belief structure such as Catholicism to a point where no harm was being done......by action or inaction.

Appologies if I'm getting offensive.

J


Johnny,

Not offensive at all. Honest questions.

You're getting into a difference between Prodestants and Catholics here. most Prodestants believe that the Bible is the only direct communication of God to man that we can accept as completely valid. They differ on how much interpretation we can do, but that is another story entirely. Just talking about the Catholic Church here, we believe that the Bible is the inspired Word of God, but that the Traditions of the Church as codified by canon law are as well. There have been several time through history when addition and editing has taken place. Mostly, it happens at Church Councils such as Nicea, Rome, Constantinople, Vatican I, Vatican II, etc. Here, a new development in the world is reviewed based on past rulings and what we know of the Nature of God.
Like the Supreme Court making decisions based on a case coming to them through the court system, they usually (though not always) come about because of a specific development in the world. The Council of Nicea, for instance, was convened to argue the merits of Arianism vs. the traditional view of the triune nature of God (coequal Father, Son, and Holy Spirit). The result was the Nicean Creed with which most Chirstians are familiar. (I believe in God, the Father Almighty, creator of Heaven and Earth....) Vatican II resulted in the sweeping changes to the liturgy and relations with other Christians and nonChristians that we are familiar with today.

Perhaps another Council is needed to look again at the possibility of an exception to the ban on contraceptives. It's not my place to say. I will say, though that the Church certainly doesn't calously want people to suffer needlessly. From the most cynical of viewpoints, Africa is the place (excepting possibly China where accurate numbers are hard to find) where the Church is growing the fastest. Do you think they want these potential converts dying off? Do you think they want to be supporting hospitals from funds begged from the rest of the world rather than having prosperous generous contributors right there locally? Do you think they want the bad press? Of course not. The Church preaches against the use of contraceptives, because we honestly believe that the deaths (as we see them) that would result from their use outweigh the evil that their lack causes. (Not arguing the point. Again, plenty of other places to do that.)

I would remark that I something somewhere about a softening on the issue of condom use in specific instances. I'm at work and large chunks of the net are blocked, or I'd go looking.

Whew. Longest post I've ever made on this forum. Good thing it's a slow day at the office.
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Re: World Leader of Christians Rehabilitates Nazi Supporter

Post by Napoleon Ier »

I'd be interested to hear the OP defend in what way quibbling over exactly how the Nazis went about killing people constitutes support for their agenda?
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Re: World Leader of Christians Rehabilitates Nazi Supporter

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There is an old saying that: "If you cannot argue the facts, argue the law, and if you cannot argue the law, argue emotion."

All you defenders of Benedict cannot prevail on the facts. He did belong to the Hitler Youth when many were fighting the Nazi in Spain, leaving Germany, or dying to avoid supporting Hitler. He did rehabilitate a Nazi supporter to a high level church position.

You cannot prevail on the law. He cannot hide behind canon law, because canon law does not require that he accept pro-Nazi teachings by his bishops.

You cannot even prevail on emotion. You only have emotion left, and well there is no emotional support for modern day Nazis.
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Re: World Leader of Christians Rehabilitates Nazi Supporter

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mpjh wrote:There is an old saying that: "If you cannot argue the facts, argue the law, and if you cannot argue the law, argue emotion."

All you defenders of Benedict cannot prevail on the facts. He did belong to the Hitler Youth when many were fighting the Nazi in Spain, leaving Germany, or dying to avoid supporting Hitler. He did rehabilitate a Nazi supporter to a high level church position.

You cannot prevail on the law. He cannot hide behind canon law, because canon law does not require that he accept pro-Nazi teachings by his bishops.

You cannot even prevail on emotion. You only have emotion left, and well there is no emotional support for modern day Nazis.



Benedict XVI was coerced into being a member of 1930s Germany's equivalent of the boy scouts, and deserted it, refusing to join the Wehrmacht or Waffen SS.

He has not rehabilitated anyone, he's lifted bans of excommunication. It's a technical question, it requires technical understanding: clearly you have none.

Williamson is not a Nazi, he simply denies the extent to which Nazism was able to enact its agenda. That doesn't mean he agrees with it.

Williamson does not hold a high position in the Church, he's actually barred from practicing in any official function.

Benedict XVI does not accept Nazism from his Bishops, since none quite apart from the fact that Bishops aren't "his", there are no Nazis amongst his Bishops, only one person ordained against the orders of Rome who questions the extent and method of Nazi genocide.

Basically, we have facts, and yes, strong emotions at the fact that virulent Anti-Catholics such as yourself twist the minds of innocent open-minded people.

You just have a load of bollocks and very little intelligence in trying to spread them.
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Re: World Leader of Christians Rehabilitates Nazi Supporter

Post by Snorri1234 »

PLAYER57832 wrote:
Zeppflyer wrote:First off, as much as we Catholics might still wish that it was that way, the Pope is hardly the leader of all, or even most, of the world's Christians.

Second; What exactly do you mean by true colors? That Benedict is a Nazi? The man who has done more for ecumenism and interfaith dialogue with Jews and Muslims than just about any major religious figure in modern history?

I thought Pope Paul had this title?


Damn, how did I miss that?

Benedict hasn't done jack with Jews and Muslims.
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Re: World Leader of Christians Rehabilitates Nazi Supporter

Post by mpjh »

Just ask the leading Jewish organizations, which have all condemned his action.
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