Socialism and Capitalism

[Nobunaga]

... Collectivism vs Individualism is the argument. No "Absolutes" considered.

...

[thegreekdog]

... Collectivism vs Individualism is the argument. No "Absolutes" considered.

...

Thank you.

[Nobunaga]

The "capitalism without limits" crowd are as stupid and unaware of human behaviour as communists. The do exactly the same thing as communists, that is; they ignore any proof that their system is retarded simply because the idea is so awesome. I challenge any "capitalism wins everything"-people to a debate.

It will be fun.

Unsupervised Capitalism is basically survival of the fittest, a lot of countries have had that as a role model for their society, since Darwin came up with the term! (no I'm not putting any blame on him!), and none of them was very inviting to me!
Unsupervised capitalism will lead to a cruel world, supervised capitalism will lead to a harmonic world!

... Supervised by states.

...

[jonesthecurl]

Most countries have a mixed economy.
The question is, what should the state regulate/actually do, and what should be left mainly to "market forces".?
I think (prove me wrong, I'm sure someone will) that the modern state has a duty to protect its citizens from crime, from foreign aggression, and a duty to ensure that its citizens are adequately educated.
Anyone want to remove anything from that list?
Anyone think of any other non-controversial additions?

[Rocketry]

Gordon Brown and I find "Third Way Economics" agreeable.

Rocket.

[thegreekdog]

Most countries have a mixed economy.
The question is, what should the state regulate/actually do, and what should be left mainly to "market forces".?
I think (prove me wrong, I'm sure someone will) that the modern state has a duty to protect its citizens from crime, from foreign aggression, and a duty to ensure that its citizens are adequately educated.
Anyone want to remove anything from that list?
Anyone think of any other non-controversial additions?

I was wondering why you have education in there.

[captain.crazy]

Individualism sparks creativity, and a far more beautiful world. In a collective society, you are simply a cog, and indispensable.

[GabonX]

Gordon Brown and I find "Third Way Economics" agreeable.

Rocket.

If Gordon Brown told me the Sun rises in the East I'd get up early to check..

What are these "Third Way Economics?"

[Neoteny]

Individualism sparks creativity, and a far more beautiful world. In a collective society, you are simply a cog, and indispensable.

Beautiful for the more creative, and f*ck the less fortunate?

[InkL0sed]

Hey, I'd love to be indispensable. I'm certainly not now.

[captain.crazy]

Individualism sparks creativity, and a far more beautiful world. In a collective society, you are simply a cog, and indispensable.

Beautiful for the more creative, and f*ck the less fortunate?

You make conservative capitalists out to be heartless. In fact, they are more charitable with the money that they earn than are liberals, at least, that has been my experience.

Face it, You can make a socialist society, and after a few generations of mediocrity, when your education system is so norm referenced that the average grade is little more than a D- by today's standard and your next crop of "socialist political genius leaders" are operating at such a borderline comatose brain activity level that their purpose in life will allude them, only then will you all wish that you had real competitive system that offered a real contrast to the post WWII Russian like society, the Socialist Republic of Earth.

Hell, look at how you mindless and lazy underachievers are drooling at the mouth for a socialist world order. All you can do is lie to yourselves and suggest that your life is anyone's fault but your own. I mean, seriously, you take care of you. I will take care of me. You don't burden me with you and I will return the favor. If you need it, I will help you out, but figure your life out for your self, it is, after all, yours. If you hate it so much, move to Cuba. I hear that their socialist republic is real nice.

You have all been brainwashed by the beast! He wants you to hate freedom as much as he wants you to believe that he does not exist. Freedom = responsibility. You don't get one without the other. All you end up with is some Ray Bradbury storyline with Orwellian consequences.

[joecoolfrog]

I spent a very pleasant few weeks in Cuba a while back , nice people but a great deal of poverty and the food was pretty grim Pretty hard to say if life under Castro is better than it was under Batista , excellent medical care and education these days but for the average person probably less freedom. What I do know is that Havana is a wonderfully laid back city and does not suffer from the drug and gang related violence found in Miami, money isn't everything !

[ben79]

I spent a very pleasant few weeks in Cuba a while back , nice people but a great deal of poverty and the food was pretty grim Pretty hard to say if life under Castro is better than it was under Batista , excellent medical care and education these days but for the average person probably less freedom. What I do know is that Havana is a wonderfully laid back city and does not suffer from the drug and gang related violence found in Miami, money isn't everything !

you're right about the medical and education system there, we have a good one i canada but our doctors leave canada to go work in the U.S.A., because they get more money, and drug dealers just can't take the chance to sell drug there ( end up in jail for the rest of the life ). The best system would be one where everything that comes from the country ground ( sorry for poor english ) would be own by the governement ( as in communism but not exactly ) here in Québec all the electricity company his only one and it's own by the governement ( cheapest electricity in the world ( even with -40 degrees celcius in the winter ) ). Mines, forest, electricity, water, all of that should be property of the governement ( and by governement i mean democracy elected governement ) so that means good jobs for the people.and all the money they make should invested in the country

[captain.crazy]

I spent a very pleasant few weeks in Cuba a while back , nice people but a great deal of poverty and the food was pretty grim Pretty hard to say if life under Castro is better than it was under Batista , excellent medical care and education these days but for the average person probably less freedom. What I do know is that Havana is a wonderfully laid back city and does not suffer from the drug and gang related violence found in Miami, money isn't everything !

you're right about the medical and education system there, we have a good one i canada but our doctors leave canada to go work in the U.S.A., because they get more money, and drug dealers just can't take the chance to sell drug there ( end up in jail for the rest of the life ). The best system would be one where everything that comes from the country ground ( sorry for poor english ) would be own by the governement ( as in communism but not exactly ) here in Québec all the electricity company his only one and it's own by the governement ( cheapest electricity in the world ( even with -40 degrees celcius in the winter ) ). Mines, forest, electricity, water, all of that should be property of the governement ( and by governement i mean democracy elected governement ) so that means good jobs for the people.and all the money they make should invested in the country

What are your taxes like though? how much of your pay check goes to the government?

[ben79]

I spent a very pleasant few weeks in Cuba a while back , nice people but a great deal of poverty and the food was pretty grim Pretty hard to say if life under Castro is better than it was under Batista , excellent medical care and education these days but for the average person probably less freedom. What I do know is that Havana is a wonderfully laid back city and does not suffer from the drug and gang related violence found in Miami, money isn't everything !

you're right about the medical and education system there, we have a good one i canada but our doctors leave canada to go work in the U.S.A., because they get more money, and drug dealers just can't take the chance to sell drug there ( end up in jail for the rest of the life ). The best system would be one where everything that comes from the country ground ( sorry for poor english ) would be own by the governement ( as in communism but not exactly ) here in Québec all the electricity company his only one and it's own by the governement ( cheapest electricity in the world ( even with -40 degrees celcius in the winter ) ). Mines, forest, electricity, water, all of that should be property of the governement ( and by governement i mean democracy elected governement ) so that means good jobs for the people.and all the money they make should invested in the country

What are your taxes like though? how much of your pay check goes to the government?

in Québec i won last year 25000 i payed 2400 provincial taxes and 1500 federal taxes at the end of the year i had a refund by both governement of 800 so it brings me at 4600 that i pay at governement. and when you buy things you have 2 more taxes one of 5% & another of 7%
but medical care is free, drugs are free, if you don't have a job you receive 550$/month & sometimes a low price appartement, cheapest electricity in the world ... so not that bad !

[ben79]

I spent a very pleasant few weeks in Cuba a while back , nice people but a great deal of poverty and the food was pretty grim Pretty hard to say if life under Castro is better than it was under Batista , excellent medical care and education these days but for the average person probably less freedom. What I do know is that Havana is a wonderfully laid back city and does not suffer from the drug and gang related violence found in Miami, money isn't everything !

you're right about the medical and education system there, we have a good one i canada but our doctors leave canada to go work in the U.S.A., because they get more money, and drug dealers just can't take the chance to sell drug there ( end up in jail for the rest of the life ). The best system would be one where everything that comes from the country ground ( sorry for poor english ) would be own by the governement ( as in communism but not exactly ) here in Québec all the electricity company his only one and it's own by the governement ( cheapest electricity in the world ( even with -40 degrees celcius in the winter ) ). Mines, forest, electricity, water, all of that should be property of the governement ( and by governement i mean democracy elected governement ) so that means good jobs for the people.and all the money they make should invested in the country

What are your taxes like though? how much of your pay check goes to the government?

in Québec i won last year 25000 i payed 2400 provincial taxes and 1500 federal taxes at the end of the year i had a refund by both governement of 800 so it brings me at 4600 that i pay at governement. and when you buy things you have 2 more taxes one of 5% & another of 7%
but medical care is free, drugs are free, if you don't have a job you receive 550$/month & sometimes a low price appartement, cheapest electricity in the world ... so not that bad !

education till universaty is free too ( primary, secondary, college )

[flashleg8]

Face it, You can make a socialist society, and after a few generations of mediocrity, when your education system is so norm referenced that the average grade is little more than a D- by today's standard and your next crop of "socialist political genius leaders" are operating at such a borderline comatose brain activity level that their purpose in life will allude them, only then will you all wish that you had real competitive system that offered a real contrast to the post WWII Russian like society, the Socialist Republic of Earth.

You couldn't be more wrong. If we compare the education (meaning literacy rates, average level of education achieved, amount of university or college graduates per capita) of the population of a socialist state vs it peers (countries of similar population and size in region) we see that the socialist system excels in all areas. We merely have to look at USSR which from a semi-feudalist base level in 50 years managed to put the first man in space! If we look at a current example of Cuba vs Jamaica (similar sizes, population and base line) we see that despite the inhuman US led blockade Cuba excels in all areas. Cuba in fact has graduate levels per capita than any other Latin American country and more doctors per capita than any other country in the world! (1 doctor per 169 people),
These are not failing education systems. Perhaps you need to look closer to home...

[comic boy]

Individualism sparks creativity, and a far more beautiful world. In a collective society, you are simply a cog, and indispensable.

Beautiful for the more creative, and f*ck the less fortunate?

You make conservative capitalists out to be heartless. In fact, they are more charitable with the money that they earn than are liberals, at least, that has been my experience.

Face it, You can make a socialist society, and after a few generations of mediocrity, when your education system is so norm referenced that the average grade is little more than a D- by today's standard and your next crop of "socialist political genius leaders" are operating at such a borderline comatose brain activity level that their purpose in life will allude them, only then will you all wish that you had real competitive system that offered a real contrast to the post WWII Russian like society, the Socialist Republic of Earth.

Hell, look at how you mindless and lazy underachievers are drooling at the mouth for a socialist world order. All you can do is lie to yourselves and suggest that your life is anyone's fault but your own. I mean, seriously, you take care of you. I will take care of me. You don't burden me with you and I will return the favor. If you need it, I will help you out, but figure your life out for your self, it is, after all, yours. If you hate it so much, move to Cuba. I hear that their socialist republic is real nice.

You have all been brainwashed by the beast! He wants you to hate freedom as much as he wants you to believe that he does not exist. Freedom = responsibility. You don't get one without the other. All you end up with is some Ray Bradbury storyline with Orwellian consequences.

Another thread but the same old rant with nothing to back up the wild assertions and the same old references to ancient prophesy ......good work

[Bovver boy]

We merely have to look at USSR which from a semi-feudalist base level in 50 years managed to put the first man in space! .

And 1 harvested spud per annum for every 38 peasents!

Seriously though, most european nations at that time were feudal to an extent - the example you give is extremely poor at best.

[flashleg8]

We merely have to look at USSR which from a semi-feudalist base level in 50 years managed to put the first man in space! .

And 1 harvested spud per annum for every 38 peasents!

Seriously though, most european nations at that time were feudal to an extent - the example you give is extremely poor at best.

???! Britain, France, Germany, Spain, Holland, Belgium, Austro-Hungary, Sweden etc. etc. These were among the most power nations on earth. Super powers with vast colonial empires. The epitome of industrial capitalist nations.

And as for your ridiculous assertion of the food production just take a look at what the rapid industrialisation and modernisation of agriculture achieved.

[captain.crazy]

We merely have to look at USSR which from a semi-feudalist base level in 50 years managed to put the first man in space! .

And 1 harvested spud per annum for every 38 peasents!

Seriously though, most european nations at that time were feudal to an extent - the example you give is extremely poor at best.

???! Britain, France, Germany, Spain, Holland, Belgium, Austro-Hungary, Sweden etc. etc. These were among the most power nations on earth. Super powers with vast colonial empires. The epitome of industrial capitalist nations.

And as for your ridiculous assertion of the food production just take a look at what the rapid industrialisation and modernisation of agriculture achieved.

These were all monarchy's in their hayday. They were totalitarian countries when they were like this, much like the United States is now, and is more becoming. Politics are what lead to this kind of shenanigans, not capitalism. Socialist regimes fail, there is no question.

[flashleg8]

These were all monarchy's in their hayday.

A King or Queen doesn't mean the country is feudal? I am using the term in the Marxist sense. These countries shook off feudalism in the 17th and 18th centuries (if not before).

They were totalitarian countries when they were like this, much like the United States is now, and is more becoming.

Totalitarian? Again this does not equal feudalist. These countries were most definitely capitalist. They invented capitalism an exported it across the globe.

Socialist regimes fail, there is no question.

Capitalism fails. Constantly and inevitably. This leads to war, famine, shortages and recession. Boom and bust. Always, increasingly worse and worse until the system will implode. Either back to feudalism or onward to communism. There can be no stability.

Your system is built on a pyramid of the oppressed. 2% of people own 50% of the wealth. 50% of the people own 1% of the wealth. This cannot go on. If your life seems so good then I suggest you look at how many millions of people you stand on to achieve it.

[captain.crazy]

These were all monarchy's in their hayday.

A King or Queen doesn't mean the country is feudal? I am using the term in the Marxist sense. These countries shook off feudalism in the 17th and 18th centuries (if not before).

But it does mean that it is totalitarian.

They were totalitarian countries when they were like this, much like the United States is now, and is more becoming.

Totalitarian? Again this does not equal feudalist. These countries were most definitely capitalist. They invented capitalism an exported it across the globe.

Bullocks! They were not free market societies. They were not republics!

Socialist regimes fail, there is no question.

Capitalism fails. Constantly and inevitably. This leads to war, famine, shortages and recession. Boom and bust. Always, increasingly worse and worse until the system will implode. Either back to feudalism or onward to communism. There can be no stability.

Booms and busts are good, believe it or not, but Kanzian economics cause them to be extreme. This is when Government gets its hands in the business sector and tweaks the system till it does what they want it to do. That always messes things up from the natural order of things.

Your system is built on a pyramid of the oppressed. 2% of people own 50% of the wealth. 50% of the people own 1% of the wealth. This cannot go on. If your life seems so good then I suggest you look at how many millions of people you stand on to achieve it.

And your system leaves 0% of the people with 0% of the wealth. There is no wealth, or diversity. You suggest that is a good thing, but leave out the fact that failure for this kind of system means that all the eggs are in one basket. When it fails, its bad!

[flashleg8]

Okay we are arguing across two threads. Obviously I disagree with your whole post, but this is really the fundamential part that I wish to hold you to account for:

Totalitarian? Again this does not equal feudalist. These countries were most definitely capitalist. They invented capitalism an exported it across the globe.

Bullocks! They were not free market societies. They were not republics!

What is your definition of "Capitalism"?

Capitalism has nothing to do with the current brand or shade of Government. It is the economic system used.
If you cannot see the "lassiez-faire" politics of the 19th century constitutional monarchy Britain as capitalist then you are mistaken. The industrial revolution was born in this system and sparked the capitalist world we live in today.
What about modern day Britain? Not a republic. Or the right wing juntas in South America? Not republics. Free market? What about Saudi Arabia or UAE. Cant get a freer market than that. You want to say to them they are not capitalist?
Wake up.

[joecoolfrog]

He doesn't know what totalitarian means does he