Should we even talk about this?

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Should we even talk about this?

Post by GabonX »

Channel 4 is facing a race controversy after deciding to give a platform to scientists who claim that white people are more intelligent than those who are black.

A documentary, fronted by former BBC News correspondent Rageh Omaar, will interview professors who claim brain power is linked to racial grouping.

It will include claims that the most intelligent people in the world are North-East Asians from parts of China, Japan and North and South Korea.

The Australian Aborigines will be said to have the lowest average IQ.

The broadcaster has decided to air the comments, which will be abhorrent to many of its viewers, as part of a series of programmes about race and science, aimed at busting 'science's last taboo'.

Bosses at the channel claim the season will strongly challenge these opinions and 'explode' the myth that science can support ideas of racial superiority.

But the decision to air the issue at all could prove incendiary and is in danger of throwing the channel into another race row.

The broadcaster was inundated with complaints in 2007 after it aired the alleged racist bullying of Shilpa Shetty on Celebrity Big Brother.

To promote the series, Channel 4 has altered photos of Baroness Thatcher, The Beatles, England's 1966 World Cup winning football team and U.S. President Barack Obama to change their racial appearances.

In Race and Intelligence: Science's Last Taboo, Omaar talks to academics who believe that aspects of the human brain are linked to race.

He interviews Richard Lynn, emeritus professor at the University of Ulster, who has amassed data which he believes shows there is a global league table of intelligence between the races.

He is seen claiming that 'the top rate' are North-East Asians who have an average IQ of 105, followed by North and Central Europeans with a score of 100.

He claims American Indians have an IQ of 87, and that sub-Saharan Africans 'pretty well on either side of the equator' have IQs of around 70. He says Aborigines have the lowest scores of around 65.

He says: 'When sub-Saharan Africans come and live - and even several generations of them come to live - in European or North American countries, their IQs increase because of course their environment is improved, their schooling is better and their nutrition is better.

'But their IQs don't rise up to the same level as Europeans.'

Ontario in Canada, is also interviewed.

Professor Rushton claims the differences between black and white and East Asian brains is due to general intelligence.

He says black people have smaller-sized brains than white people and are not as intelligent as white people.

In the programme a range of academics line up to criticise the views of the two men.

Oona King, Channel 4's head of diversity, said the programme will show conclusively 'that you cannot link race to IQ'.

Miss King, a former Labour MP, added: 'Even people who know the race agenda inside out will learn a lot from these programmes.'

She called for a 'heated debate' about race, saying: 'This series will change the terms of the debate.'

Dr Watson sparked controversy in 2007 after claiming in a newspaper interview that black people were less intelligent.

His views prompted London's Science Museum to scrap a planned talk by him, saying the opinions went 'beyond the point of acceptable debate'.

The 79-year-old American geneticist - who does not appear in the show - said he was 'inherently gloomy about the prospect of Africa' because 'all our social policies are based on the fact that their intelligence is the same as ours - whereas all the testing says not really'.

He added that he hoped that everyone was equal, but then alleged that 'people who have to deal with black employees find this not true'.

In the interview he claimed genes responsible for creating differences in human intelligence could be found within a decade.

Dr Watson was hailed as achieving one of the greatest single scientific breakthroughs of the 20th century when he worked at Cambridge in the 1950s and 1960s, forming part of the team which discovered the structure of DNA.

He has been director of the Cold Spring Harbour Laboratory on Long Island, in the U.S., a world leader in research into cancer and genetics, for 50 years.

Dr Watson has been at the heart of several scientific furores over the years.

He once reportedly said that a woman should have the right to abort her unborn child if tests could determine it would be homosexual.

He has suggested a link between skin colour and sex drive, proposing a theory that black people have higher libidos.

And he also claimed that beauty could be genetically manufactured, saying: 'People say it would be terrible if we made all girls pretty. I think it would be great.'

In his book, Avoid Boring People: Lessons from a Life in Science, he writes that 'there is no firm reason to anticipate that the intellectual capacities of peoples geographically separated in their evolution should prove to have evolved identically.

'Our wanting to reserve equal powers of reason as some universal heritage of humanity will not be enough to make it so'.

Oona King, Channel 4's head of diversity, said the programme shows conclusively 'that you cannot link race to IQ'.

Omaar also said in a clip of the show that views society found offensive 'are not defeated by being ignored'.

King was asked about Strictly host Bruce Forsyth's views that the nation should treat Anton Du Beke's 'slip up' of calling his dance partner Laila Rouass a 'Paki' more light-heartedly.

The diversity boss said that when Forsyth was growing up, people believed that race was an indicator of intelligence.

Speaking generally, King said: 'What's surprising is how those views directly impact us today and how those views persist.'

She continued: 'Sweeping racist views and opinions under the carpet will not make those views go away.'

Asked whether Forsyth had a place on television, she said: 'I think of my white grandmother when I think of Bruce Forsyth.'

She said her grandmother was a 'very, very lovely woman' who was upset about her family members being 'half-caste' and had to deal with her world being turned on its head.

She said: 'My view is that we need to open up the terms of the debate, not close it down. I think there's room for people questioning people's responses to the debate.

'The key for me is that when people say: 'You don't have a sense of humour', they're not taking the context into account.

'The context for a black child being bullied day-in, day-out is entirely different from an off-the-cuff remark about 'limeys'.'

King also spoke of her own experiences as a child, when her 'black, 6ft 2ins dad' arrived to pick her up from primary school in front of four white girls.

'The four of them burst into tears and started crying because they were terrorised by this black man,' she said.

She called for a 'heated debate' about race, saying: 'This series will change the terms of the debate.'

Other films in the series will be presented by BBC presenter Krishnan Guru-Murthy alongside Channel 4's Aarathi Prasad.

A two-part documentary, Plastic Surgery and Race, will look at how Michael Jackson’s face changed over the years and will speak to six people who want to ‘westernise’ their bodies and faces.

The Event: How Racist Are You?, will see a former US schoolteacher Jane Elliott recreate a controversial exercise she first tried 40 years ago to teach nine-year-olds about prejudice.

Presented by Krishnan Guru-Murthy, the experiment will ask 30 British adults to experience what it is like to be discriminated against based on the colour of their eyes.

The Human Zoo: Science’s Dirty Secret will tell the poignant story of Ota Benga, a Batwa pygmy from the Belgian Congo, who was first put on display at the 1904 St Louis World’s Fair and then the Bronx Zoo where he was labelled as the 'missing link'.

The final film, Is It Better to be Mixed Race? will ask whether there could be biological advantages to have parents of different races.

A Channel 4 spokesperson said: 'This new season of programmes sets out to explode some of the myths about race and science and to cast light on the history and consequences of scientific racism.

'The Season debunks the myths about science and race – science has been misused to legitimise racist beliefs and practices – these programmes are the antidote to that.

'Season roundly dismisses the ideas: that race is a predictor of intelligence; that racial purity has scientific benefits and that any one race is superior to another.'

The season was commissioned by C4 science commissioning editor David Glover and will run for two weeks from 26th October, starting with Race and Intelligence: Science's Last Taboo.

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article ... gence.html
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Re: Should we even talk about this?

Post by Army of GOD »

No, we should not talk about this.
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Re: Should we even talk about this?

Post by GabonX »

Army of GOD wrote:No, we should not talk about this.

That's a fair position to take, particularly given the long and colorful history of interaction between different groups of man.
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Re: Should we even talk about this?

Post by Army of GOD »

What sick satisfaction do people get in doing things such as finding the average IQs of different races?
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Re: Should we even talk about this?

Post by Snorri1234 »

GabonX wrote:Channel 4 is facing a race controversy after deciding to give a platform to scientists who claim that white people are more intelligent than those who are black.


wow that is suprising!
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Re: Should we even talk about this?

Post by mpjh »

gosh, I heard of a report that mixed race people were the smartest.
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Re: Should we even talk about this?

Post by GabonX »

mpjh wrote:gosh, I heard of a report that mixed race people were the smartest.

The final film, Is It Better to be Mixed Race? will ask whether there could be biological advantages to have parents of different races.


Close to the bottom..
Snorri1234 wrote:
GabonX wrote:Channel 4 is facing a race controversy after deciding to give a platform to scientists who claim that white people are more intelligent than those who are black.


wow that is suprising!

I haven't seen the film, but based on this:
It will include claims that the most intelligent people in the world are North-East Asians from parts of China, Japan and North and South Korea.

it doesn't look like the piece is based on irrational racism or pride..unless it was made by Asians
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Re: Should we even talk about this?

Post by GabonX »

Army of GOD wrote:What sick satisfaction do people get in doing things such as finding the average IQs of different races?

It comes down to a very basic question regarding whether or not their should be limits in man's quest for knowledge. It is a question of biblical proportions.

Truth may not always sync with our sense of what is or is not ideal..
Last edited by GabonX on Thu Oct 15, 2009 6:04 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Should we even talk about this?

Post by Snorri1234 »

GabonX wrote:The Australian Aborigines will be said to have the lowest average IQ.


lol


So basically, this is a program where some racist talks about the racist things he believes and then the rest of the program is about how he's wrong? That sounds like a good show but sadly NOONE WANTS RACISTS TO GET ANY SCREENTIME!

Anyway, yeah this shit gets a reaction but you're linking the fucking Daily Mail? (Note, those pictures are fucking hilarious. Cool normal dude and creepy old guy in some sort of vs match?)
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Re: Should we even talk about this?

Post by Snorri1234 »

GabonX wrote:
Snorri1234 wrote:
GabonX wrote:Channel 4 is facing a race controversy after deciding to give a platform to scientists who claim that white people are more intelligent than those who are black.


wow that is suprising!

I haven't seen the film, but based on this:
It will include claims that the most intelligent people in the world are North-East Asians from parts of China, Japan and North and South Korea.

it doesn't look like the piece is based on irrational racism or pride..unless it was made by Asians



In fact, it isn't made based on any racism at all. Did you even read the article? It's a show that disproves all the racist gibberish people belief. My comment was about this totally not being suprising on account of the knee-jerk reaction people have to talking about race, a knee-jerk reaction not unlike your own where you scream PC GONE MADZORS all the time.
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Re: Should we even talk about this?

Post by GabonX »

Snorri1234 wrote:So basically, this is a program where some racist talks about the racist things he believes and then the rest of the program is about how he's wrong? That sounds like a good show but sadly NOONE WANTS RACISTS TO GET ANY SCREENTIME!

It would only be racist if they are claiming that their race is superior to all others without any science to back it. That is to say, it is racist if they are reporting things because of a sense of superiority that they feel..

Snorri1234 wrote:Anyway, yeah this shit gets a reaction but you're linking the fucking Daily Mail? (Note, those pictures are fucking hilarious. Cool normal dude and creepy old guy in some sort of vs match?)

You dispute that this documentary is going to be broadcast because because the report comes from the Daily Mail? That's rather silly if it's the case.

That creepy old guy discovered the Double Helix. In other words he's the guy that discovered the structure of DNA. He also headed the Human Genome project.

Despite his authority on the topic of genetics, when he questions commonly held beliefs on the subject of race people denounce him.

People often have an emotional reaction which clouds their ability to perceive truth and I believe that this IS the case on the topic of race.
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Re: Should we even talk about this?

Post by GabonX »

Snorri1234 wrote:My comment was about this totally not being suprising on account of the knee-jerk reaction people have to talking about race, a knee-jerk reaction not unlike your own where you scream PC GONE MADZORS all the time.

Quite the opposite, this is one case where political correctness and racial sensitivity may be necessary.

That said, political correctness can not change Truth.

As a personal observation, I see people's reaction to questions regarding whether or not racial trends exist as being very similar to how religious people react when you challenge their faith.

Both groups are acting on faith and have no interest in having their faith challenged.
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Re: Should we even talk about this?

Post by Snorri1234 »

GabonX wrote:
Snorri1234 wrote:My comment was about this totally not being suprising on account of the knee-jerk reaction people have to talking about race, a knee-jerk reaction not unlike your own where you scream PC GONE MADZORS all the time.

Quite the opposite, this is one case where political correctness and racial sensitivity may be necessary.

That said, political correctness can not change Truth.

As a personal observation, I see people's reaction to questions regarding whether or not racial trends exist as being very similar to how religious people react when you challenge their faith.


THEY DO NOT EXIST YOU MORON! This entire program is about how they fucking don't! It's like you're purposefully misreading everything! PC can not change truth, but in this instance pc agrees with the fucking truth.


Jesus, read before you post a story.
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Re: Should we even talk about this?

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GabonX wrote:Channel 4 is facing a race controversy after deciding to give a platform to scientists who claim that white people are more intelligent than those who are black.

A documentary, fronted by former BBC News correspondent Rageh Omaar, will interview professors who claim brain power is linked to racial grouping.

It will include claims that the most intelligent people in the world are North-East Asians from parts of China, Japan and North and South Korea.

The Australian Aborigines will be said to have the lowest average IQ.

The broadcaster has decided to air the comments, which will be abhorrent to many of its viewers, as part of a series of programmes about race and science, aimed at busting 'science's last taboo'.

Bosses at the channel claim the season will strongly challenge these opinions and 'explode' the myth that science can support ideas of racial superiority.

But the decision to air the issue at all could prove incendiary and is in danger of throwing the channel into another race row.

The broadcaster was inundated with complaints in 2007 after it aired the alleged racist bullying of Shilpa Shetty on Celebrity Big Brother.

To promote the series, Channel 4 has altered photos of Baroness Thatcher, The Beatles, England's 1966 World Cup winning football team and U.S. President Barack Obama to change their racial appearances.

In Race and Intelligence: Science's Last Taboo, Omaar talks to academics who believe that aspects of the human brain are linked to race.

He interviews Richard Lynn, emeritus professor at the University of Ulster, who has amassed data which he believes shows there is a global league table of intelligence between the races.

He is seen claiming that 'the top rate' are North-East Asians who have an average IQ of 105, followed by North and Central Europeans with a score of 100.

He claims American Indians have an IQ of 87, and that sub-Saharan Africans 'pretty well on either side of the equator' have IQs of around 70. He says Aborigines have the lowest scores of around 65.

He says: 'When sub-Saharan Africans come and live - and even several generations of them come to live - in European or North American countries, their IQs increase because of course their environment is improved, their schooling is better and their nutrition is better.

'But their IQs don't rise up to the same level as Europeans.'

Ontario in Canada, is also interviewed.

Professor Rushton claims the differences between black and white and East Asian brains is due to general intelligence.

He says black people have smaller-sized brains than white people and are not as intelligent as white people.

In the programme a range of academics line up to criticise the views of the two men.

Oona King, Channel 4's head of diversity, said the programme will show conclusively 'that you cannot link race to IQ'.

Miss King, a former Labour MP, added: 'Even people who know the race agenda inside out will learn a lot from these programmes.'

She called for a 'heated debate' about race, saying: 'This series will change the terms of the debate.'

Dr Watson sparked controversy in 2007 after claiming in a newspaper interview that black people were less intelligent.

His views prompted London's Science Museum to scrap a planned talk by him, saying the opinions went 'beyond the point of acceptable debate'.

The 79-year-old American geneticist - who does not appear in the show - said he was 'inherently gloomy about the prospect of Africa' because 'all our social policies are based on the fact that their intelligence is the same as ours - whereas all the testing says not really'.

He added that he hoped that everyone was equal, but then alleged that 'people who have to deal with black employees find this not true'.

In the interview he claimed genes responsible for creating differences in human intelligence could be found within a decade.

Dr Watson was hailed as achieving one of the greatest single scientific breakthroughs of the 20th century when he worked at Cambridge in the 1950s and 1960s, forming part of the team which discovered the structure of DNA.

He has been director of the Cold Spring Harbour Laboratory on Long Island, in the U.S., a world leader in research into cancer and genetics, for 50 years.

Dr Watson has been at the heart of several scientific furores over the years.

He once reportedly said that a woman should have the right to abort her unborn child if tests could determine it would be homosexual.

He has suggested a link between skin colour and sex drive, proposing a theory that black people have higher libidos.

And he also claimed that beauty could be genetically manufactured, saying: 'People say it would be terrible if we made all girls pretty. I think it would be great.'

In his book, Avoid Boring People: Lessons from a Life in Science, he writes that 'there is no firm reason to anticipate that the intellectual capacities of peoples geographically separated in their evolution should prove to have evolved identically.

'Our wanting to reserve equal powers of reason as some universal heritage of humanity will not be enough to make it so'.

Oona King, Channel 4's head of diversity, said the programme shows conclusively 'that you cannot link race to IQ'.

Omaar also said in a clip of the show that views society found offensive 'are not defeated by being ignored'.

King was asked about Strictly host Bruce Forsyth's views that the nation should treat Anton Du Beke's 'slip up' of calling his dance partner Laila Rouass a 'Paki' more light-heartedly.

The diversity boss said that when Forsyth was growing up, people believed that race was an indicator of intelligence.

Speaking generally, King said: 'What's surprising is how those views directly impact us today and how those views persist.'

She continued: 'Sweeping racist views and opinions under the carpet will not make those views go away.'

Asked whether Forsyth had a place on television, she said: 'I think of my white grandmother when I think of Bruce Forsyth.'

She said her grandmother was a 'very, very lovely woman' who was upset about her family members being 'half-caste' and had to deal with her world being turned on its head.

She said: 'My view is that we need to open up the terms of the debate, not close it down. I think there's room for people questioning people's responses to the debate.

'The key for me is that when people say: 'You don't have a sense of humour', they're not taking the context into account.

'The context for a black child being bullied day-in, day-out is entirely different from an off-the-cuff remark about 'limeys'.'

King also spoke of her own experiences as a child, when her 'black, 6ft 2ins dad' arrived to pick her up from primary school in front of four white girls.

'The four of them burst into tears and started crying because they were terrorised by this black man,' she said.

She called for a 'heated debate' about race, saying: 'This series will change the terms of the debate.'

Other films in the series will be presented by BBC presenter Krishnan Guru-Murthy alongside Channel 4's Aarathi Prasad.

A two-part documentary, Plastic Surgery and Race, will look at how Michael Jackson’s face changed over the years and will speak to six people who want to ‘westernise’ their bodies and faces.

The Event: How Racist Are You?, will see a former US schoolteacher Jane Elliott recreate a controversial exercise she first tried 40 years ago to teach nine-year-olds about prejudice.

Presented by Krishnan Guru-Murthy, the experiment will ask 30 British adults to experience what it is like to be discriminated against based on the colour of their eyes.

The Human Zoo: Science’s Dirty Secret will tell the poignant story of Ota Benga, a Batwa pygmy from the Belgian Congo, who was first put on display at the 1904 St Louis World’s Fair and then the Bronx Zoo where he was labelled as the 'missing link'.

The final film, Is It Better to be Mixed Race? will ask whether there could be biological advantages to have parents of different races.

A Channel 4 spokesperson said: 'This new season of programmes sets out to explode some of the myths about race and science and to cast light on the history and consequences of scientific racism.

'The Season debunks the myths about science and race – science has been misused to legitimise racist beliefs and practices – these programmes are the antidote to that.

'Season roundly dismisses the ideas: that race is a predictor of intelligence; that racial purity has scientific benefits and that any one race is superior to another.'

The season was commissioned by C4 science commissioning editor David Glover and will run for two weeks from 26th October, starting with Race and Intelligence: Science's Last Taboo.

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article ... gence.html

they are doing their part for obamas new race obsessed America.

The Obama voters "this will end racial tension in America forever"!

intelligent people "this will create a shit storm of racial tension"

Ta!
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Re: Should we even talk about this?

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Well, ya know that snorii is generally correct.
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Re: Should we even talk about this?

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Phatscotty wrote:they are doing their part for obamas new race obsessed America.

The Obama voters "this will end racial tension in America forever"!

intelligent people "this will create a shit storm of racial tension"

Ta!

So we shouldn't elect a black person, because it will create racial tension?
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Re: Should we even talk about this?

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GabonX wrote:
Snorri1234 wrote:So basically, this is a program where some racist talks about the racist things he believes and then the rest of the program is about how he's wrong? That sounds like a good show but sadly NOONE WANTS RACISTS TO GET ANY SCREENTIME!

It would only be racist if they are claiming that their race is superior to all others without any science to back it. That is to say, it is racist if they are reporting things because of a sense of superiority that they feel..

Snorri1234 wrote:Anyway, yeah this shit gets a reaction but you're linking the fucking Daily Mail? (Note, those pictures are fucking hilarious. Cool normal dude and creepy old guy in some sort of vs match?)

You dispute that this documentary is going to be broadcast because because the report comes from the Daily Mail? That's rather silly if it's the case.

That creepy old guy discovered the Double Helix. In other words he's the guy that discovered the structure of DNA. He also headed the Human Genome project.

Despite his authority on the topic of genetics, when he questions commonly held beliefs on the subject of race people denounce him.

People often have an emotional reaction which clouds their ability to perceive truth and I believe that this IS the case on the topic of race.



LOOK, I am not even going to wade through what the show does and does not say.

The bottom line is that white males created this thing called the IQ test, so --gee, isn't it "strange" that white males seem to dominate. Oh, yes, Asians do well. Why? Because they stereotypically adhere to these supposed "ideals" of intelligence.

Here is the REAL truth. All people vary. In many given tested populations, whites outstrip blacks, in numbers by a good measure. The conditions under which whites, blacks and Asians all exist differ (blacks are far more likely to be poor and uneducated in the US, for example). Those factors are KNOWN to influence IQ. They influence the higher IQ ranges, in particular at least as much and, in many cases, far more than genetics. The whole issue of lead exposure in children, for example, is still not fully understood. (we know its bad, but keep finding out its even worse than thought before) The effects of diet and excercise are also huge. Education and the perception a child is given of their ability to succeed influence IQ. A child may be tested with a high IQ at age 4, but if constantly told they are dumb, may well wind up significantly below average by high school. (in fact, in regards to blacks that last is very, very huge -- too many kids are plain and simply "taught" that they "cannot" learn, so of course they don't!)

Even if you take all of those factors into account, IQ is pretty much meaningless. It really and truly only measures a particular kind of narrow thinking. It has little or nothing to do with ability to succeed, create or contribute in measurable ways to society.
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Re: Should we even talk about this?

Post by Neoteny »

Watson is kind of a tool. This is coming from a guy who is a pretty big fan of genetics.
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Re: Should we even talk about this?

Post by SultanOfSurreal »

GabonX wrote:
Army of GOD wrote:What sick satisfaction do people get in doing things such as finding the average IQs of different races?

It comes down to a very basic question regarding whether or not their should be limits in man's quest for knowledge. It is a question of biblical proportions.

Truth may not always sync with our sense of what is or is not ideal..


look you fucking troglodyte, actual scientists don't have a working, agreed-upon definition of what intelligence even is, much less how it varies across populations. what i can tell you for certain is that intelligence is not a fucking iq score, which is about as reliable and accurate as goddamned phrenology -- and used to further the same bankrupt philosophy too.

another thing i can tell you for certain is that whatever intelligence is, it's doubtless an incredibly complex phenomena that expresses itself in a broad variety of ways and is determined by a huge interplay of genetic, environmental, and cultural factors. there is no "intelligence" gene, in the same way there isn't any "taste in movies" gene or "favorite mountain" gene or "likelihood of sporting a porn mustache" gene. saying as much is at best a ridiculous oversimplification and at worst complete fucking nonsense.

the final thing to point out is that race itself is a complete fiction. there is more genetic diversity amongst the different peoples of africa than there are between any two groups of humans outside africa. yet our definition of "black people" encompasses not only all these impossibly divergent populations in africa, but totally unconnected populations of people in australia, new zealand, melanesia, the carribbean, and other places (not to mention the populations who have lived in Europe and America for tens of generations), all of them removed from africa as much by genetics as they are by time and space.

the same goes for our coneption of "asian" (which in popular usage suggests far-east asians, instead of say, indians, iraqis, or most russians). this ill-defined group includes the japanese, chinese, korean, and tawainese amongst others, as well as phillipinos, hawaiians, and other polynesians, depending on who you ask.

besides flagging someone as non-european (and even then not reliably) the fact remains that our conception of race is completely useless in describing large populations of humans. at best it's a way of differentiating the various shades of skin color humans come in, but then you get idiots arguing over what constitutes a TRUE "black" or "white" or "asian" person, as if race exists outside of whatever arbitrary boundaries we set for it.

and then of course come idiots like you, who believe skin color is in some way indelibly tied to intelligence, a proposition as laughably simplistic and fucking wrong as saying that intelligence is tied to height, eye color, or stomach capacity. there is not only no reason to believe the two are connected, but merely suggesting as much shows you as a complete fucking dullard with no conception of the actual science behind human genetics. you should feel deep shame in even asking this fucking question, not just because it's plainly motivated by a latent racism that you've proudly displayed dozens of times in the past, but also because it's goddamned stupid even outside of that. you fucking simpleton.
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Re: Should we even talk about this?

Post by john9blue »

I realize that N/E Asians have greater logical capacities on average than Europeans, according to our best efforts to measure it. I'm Irish. Does that make me racist? Would my opinion be invalidated if my 200 year old ancestors were from Japan instead of Ireland? I thought nothing was sacred to you guys but I guess I was wrong, you hold your ideal of perfect human equality to be sacred when it is so far detached from reality, so sacred that you're willing to limit man's quest for knowledge... :|
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Re: Should we even talk about this?

Post by SultanOfSurreal »

john9blue wrote:I realize that N/E Asians have greater logical capacities on average than Europeans, according to our best efforts to measure it. I'm Irish. Does that make me racist?


yes
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Re: Should we even talk about this?

Post by F1fth »

SultanOfSurreal wrote:
GabonX wrote:
Army of GOD wrote:What sick satisfaction do people get in doing things such as finding the average IQs of different races?

It comes down to a very basic question regarding whether or not their should be limits in man's quest for knowledge. It is a question of biblical proportions.

Truth may not always sync with our sense of what is or is not ideal..


look you fucking troglodyte, actual scientists don't have a working, agreed-upon definition of what intelligence even is, much less how it varies across populations. what i can tell you for certain is that intelligence is not a fucking iq score, which is about as reliable and accurate as goddamned phrenology -- and used to further the same bankrupt philosophy too.

another thing i can tell you for certain is that whatever intelligence is, it's doubtless an incredibly complex phenomena that expresses itself in a broad variety of ways and is determined by a huge interplay of genetic, environmental, and cultural factors. there is no "intelligence" gene, in the same way there isn't any "taste in movies" gene or "favorite mountain" gene or "likelihood of sporting a porn mustache" gene. saying as much is at best a ridiculous oversimplification and at worst complete fucking nonsense.

the final thing to point out is that race itself is a complete fiction. there is more genetic diversity amongst the different peoples of africa than there are between any two groups of humans outside africa. yet our definition of "black people" encompasses not only all these impossibly divergent populations in africa, but totally unconnected populations of people in australia, new zealand, melanesia, the carribbean, and other places (not to mention the populations who have lived in Europe and America for tens of generations), all of them removed from africa as much by genetics as they are by time and space.

the same goes for our coneption of "asian" (which in popular usage suggests far-east asians, instead of say, indians, iraqis, or most russians). this ill-defined group includes the japanese, chinese, korean, and tawainese amongst others, as well as phillipinos, hawaiians, and other polynesians, depending on who you ask.

besides flagging someone as non-european (and even then not reliably) the fact remains that our conception of race is completely useless in describing large populations of humans. at best it's a way of differentiating the various shades of skin color humans come in, but then you get idiots arguing over what constitutes a TRUE "black" or "white" or "asian" person, as if race exists outside of whatever arbitrary boundaries we set for it.

and then of course come idiots like you, who believe skin color is in some way indelibly tied to intelligence, a proposition as laughably simplistic and fucking wrong as saying that intelligence is tied to height, eye color, or stomach capacity. there is not only no reason to believe the two are connected, but merely suggesting as much shows you as a complete fucking dullard with no conception of the actual science behind human genetics. you should feel deep shame in even asking this fucking question, not just because it's plainly motivated by a latent racism that you've proudly displayed dozens of times in the past, but also because it's goddamned stupid even outside of that. you fucking simpleton.


Now Sultan, please tell us how you really feel...

:lol:

Anyway, the post was a far bit more degrading than I would write and I would argue it hurts your position by making it even harder for opposed people to accept your views given that now to do so they would have to imply that they themselves are "goddamned stupid" (whether or not the label is deserved is another issue entirely).

Point is though, take out the insults and you have one fine goddamn post.
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Re: Should we even talk about this?

Post by F1fth »

john9blue wrote: I thought nothing was sacred to you guys but I guess I was wrong, you hold your ideal of perfect human equality to be sacred when it is so far detached from reality, so sacred that you're willing to limit man's quest for knowledge... :|


Umm... what good will mankind get out of proving that one "race" is in general smarter than another? Give the "smartest" race an old pat on the back? Wag the finger at the "dumb" race for being born that way.

But as Sultan said, there is so much wrong with trying to measure this that all of this actually manages to be even more pointless.
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Re: Should we even talk about this?

Post by john9blue »

Well my ratheism is backed up by facts and logic! Your fantasy bullshit beliefs have been disproven time and time again by modern science and you refuse to let go of them! Fooooools! :P
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Re: Should we even talk about this?

Post by F1fth »

john9blue wrote:Well my ratheism is backed up by facts and logic! Your fantasy bullshit beliefs have been disproven time and time again by modern science and you refuse to let go of them! Fooooools! :P

What?
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