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September Challenge -- A Boat Afloat

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Re: September Challenge -- A Boat Afloat

Postby loutil on Tue Sep 09, 2014 10:20 am

Dukasaur wrote:
loutil wrote:Just my 2 cents...
The metrics for getting the medal are absurd. Donelladan was on point in his post. These challenges are set up in such a way that you either have to play an absurd amount of games and get point crushed or get impressively lucky.

Some people enjoy playing an absurd amount of games. That is why the many games option was left open for them when the scoring system changed.

As for the rest of us, however, I don't see this as being particularly "absurd". You have to win 9 games out of 19. They're three-player games, so all things being equal you're expected to win 6.3. So, you really only have to win 2.7 games more than random chance would dictate, which is somewhat difficult but hardly impossible.



That is not completely accurate as you have to win at least 3 of each style. You could win 7 out of 10 in one and 2 out of 9 in the other and be totally screwed...
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Re: September Challenge -- A Boat Afloat

Postby Dukasaur on Tue Sep 09, 2014 12:49 pm

loutil wrote:
Dukasaur wrote:
loutil wrote:Just my 2 cents...
The metrics for getting the medal are absurd. Donelladan was on point in his post. These challenges are set up in such a way that you either have to play an absurd amount of games and get point crushed or get impressively lucky.

Some people enjoy playing an absurd amount of games. That is why the many games option was left open for them when the scoring system changed.

As for the rest of us, however, I don't see this as being particularly "absurd". You have to win 9 games out of 19. They're three-player games, so all things being equal you're expected to win 6.3. So, you really only have to win 2.7 games more than random chance would dictate, which is somewhat difficult but hardly impossible.



That is not completely accurate as you have to win at least 3 of each style. You could win 7 out of 10 in one and 2 out of 9 in the other and be totally screwed...

Well, that's true.

Still, I don't see it as being impossible. It would be interesting if someone would calculate the actual odds, but I'm just ballparking them at needing to play 50% better than random expectation, and there's tons of players that have a win rate 50% better than random expectations.

I don't, but close enough that I'm willing to take a shot at this one.
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Re: September Challenge -- A Boat Afloat

Postby DoomYoshi on Tue Sep 09, 2014 3:29 pm

The challenges aren't supposed to be a guaranteed medal. Participation ribbons were an Olympics-only thing.

Many will try, some will succeed.

It's only 19 3-player games this month, it won't add a tremendous load to anyone's game list. Give it a try. If you fail... oh well.

If this one does end up being too hard, I will make next month's easier so that we don't have too many tough ones.
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Re: September Challenge -- A Boat Afloat

Postby loutil on Tue Sep 09, 2014 4:17 pm

DoomYoshi wrote:The challenges aren't supposed to be a guaranteed medal. Participation ribbons were an Olympics-only thing.

Many will try, some will succeed.

It's only 19 3-player games this month, it won't add a tremendous load to anyone's game list. Give it a try. If you fail... oh well.

If this one does end up being too hard, I will make next month's easier so that we don't have too many tough ones.


The bigger problem for me is the basic point crush I must endure to participate. Even if I rock the challenge and win half my games I will lose a significant amount of points. It is why very few higher ranked players participate in these events.
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Re: September Challenge -- A Boat Afloat

Postby ooge on Tue Sep 09, 2014 10:22 pm

DoomYoshi wrote:The challenges aren't supposed to be a guaranteed medal. Participation ribbons were an Olympics-only thing.

Many will try, some will succeed.

It's only 19 3-player games this month, it won't add a tremendous load to anyone's game list. Give it a try. If you fail... oh well.

If this one does end up being too hard, I will make next month's easier so that we don't have too many tough ones.


I hope you are keeping track of the amount of challenge medals you are giving out each month.what was June? 20 players?thats to many? whats august going to be?zero?one?...only 20 players does not seem like a guaranteed medal to me.
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Re: September Challenge -- A Boat Afloat

Postby DoomYoshi on Tue Sep 09, 2014 10:38 pm

August does seem like it will be low. I was expecting more players @ 24 games. We only got 13 players who did that. Near the end, games were having a hard time filling, so that probably screwed up a bunch of people.

It's not so much on number of medals awarded (that was bWs thinking); its on the percentage of players that try and succeed.

Playing 24 games gives someone a 32% chance of getting the medal.

For this challenge, the percentage is only 14%. It definitely is one of the harder ones.

I will bring the challenge difficult down again for the next one.
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Re: September Challenge -- A Boat Afloat

Postby DoomYoshi on Tue Sep 09, 2014 10:45 pm

http://www.conquerclub.com/forum/viewtopic.php?f=6&t=207659

I started a poll to gauge community response.
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Re: September Challenge -- A Boat Afloat

Postby Donelladan on Wed Sep 10, 2014 5:49 am

DoomYoshi wrote:August does seem like it will be low. I was expecting more players @ 24 games. We only got 13 players who did that. Near the end, games were having a hard time filling, so that probably screwed up a bunch of people.

It's not so much on number of medals awarded (that was bWs thinking); its on the percentage of players that try and succeed.

Playing 24 games gives someone a 32% chance of getting the medal.

For this challenge, the percentage is only 14%. It definitely is one of the harder ones.

I will bring the challenge difficult down again for the next one.


For the august challenge some fo my games are still very far from finished. Will you wait ? Trench Zombie 12 players no round limit may take ages to finish.
I had the problem with the challenge with july or april one ( the one with the antartica) that you issued the medals and closed the scoreboard while I still had two games running. Wouldn't have change the scoreboard I think, but for the august one since only 3 win are required it could be of importance.
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Re: September Challenge -- A Boat Afloat

Postby ooge on Wed Sep 10, 2014 7:49 pm

DoomYoshi wrote:August does seem like it will be low. I was expecting more players @ 24 games. We only got 13 players who did that. Near the end, games were having a hard time filling, so that probably screwed up a bunch of people.

It's not so much on number of medals awarded (that was bWs thinking); its on the percentage of players that try and succeed.

Playing 24 games gives someone a 32% chance of getting the medal.

For this challenge, the percentage is only 14%. It definitely is one of the harder ones.

I will bring the challenge difficult down again for the next one.


ok.so be it.I see your pt.but a player still has to play all those games.You at one time believed that was a challenge itself and it is.This two tiered pt system though is eliminating the players who are willing to play a lot of games and as a result the games dont fill for other players.for myself,I have to play a few games to see what works and what does not,this eliminates me from succeeding in these last two challenges. One last thing if your still interested,I when trying to get terminator and assassin medal played three player games to reduce the damage that was going to happen to my overall win percentage.I thought the 40% I did with them was about as good as I could hope for.
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Re: September Challenge -- A Boat Afloat

Postby Robespierre__ on Wed Sep 10, 2014 8:54 pm

Loved reading the history snippet on the Graf Zeppelin etc.
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Re: September Challenge -- A Boat Afloat

Postby iAmCaffeine on Thu Sep 11, 2014 5:53 am

I've played four sequential games; won two, lost one, one ongoing. I've played three freestyle games; won one, lost one, one ongoing.

How come I don't have 307 points?
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Re: September Challenge -- A Boat Afloat

Postby Dukasaur on Thu Sep 11, 2014 10:34 am

iAmCaffeine wrote:I've played four sequential games; won two, lost one, one ongoing. I've played three freestyle games; won one, lost one, one ongoing.

How come I don't have 307 points?

I assume that, like with the World Cup event, the system doesn't count any win points until you complete the minimum requirement:
DoomYoshi wrote:At least 3 wins are required from each type of game
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Re: September Challenge -- A Boat Afloat

Postby iAmCaffeine on Thu Sep 11, 2014 12:49 pm

There are far too many clauses in these challenges. Go back to basics.

Thanks Duk.
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Re: September Challenge -- A Boat Afloat

Postby DoomYoshi on Thu Sep 11, 2014 3:11 pm

iAmCaffeine wrote:There are far too many clauses in these challenges. Go back to basics.

Thanks Duk.


This one does have a few clauses. The reason the score appears as 0 is so this way I don't have to manually check to see if someone beat 3 of each.
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Re: September Challenge -- A Boat Afloat

Postby JOHNNYROCKET24 on Thu Sep 11, 2014 5:30 pm

DoomYoshi wrote:August does seem like it will be low. I was expecting more players @ 24 games. We only got 13 players who did that. Near the end, games were having a hard time filling, so that probably screwed up a bunch of people.

It's not so much on number of medals awarded (that was bWs thinking); its on the percentage of players that try and succeed.

Playing 24 games gives someone a 32% chance of getting the medal.

For this challenge, the percentage is only 14%. It definitely is one of the harder ones.

I will bring the challenge difficult down again for the next one.

I thought this challenge was easy :roll:
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Re: September Challenge -- A Boat Afloat

Postby Royal Panda on Mon Sep 15, 2014 8:26 am

Seems fair enough for it to be very hard to get a Challenge Medal - what happened to the GA medals though for people who made a good effort but didn't quite meet the challenge requirements? I think that would make a lot of people happier...

As for this challenge, it was pretty much perfect settings for me, so I won't be complaining this time... ;)
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Re: September Challenge -- A Boat Afloat

Postby iAmCaffeine on Sat Sep 20, 2014 9:25 am

I've played 12 games and won 4; I just need 1 more win for each setting. Anyone else on target for that or did everyone just spam their games? I'll be getting 600 points for my wins rather than 600, but will be the only person in the top 20 to do so because so many people have just joined tonnes of games to ensure they get the medal, win or lose. I think the benefits of completing the challenge without spamming games should be greater.
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Re: September Challenge -- A Boat Afloat

Postby Dukasaur on Sat Sep 20, 2014 2:57 pm

iAmCaffeine wrote:I've played 12 games and won 4; I just need 1 more win for each setting. Anyone else on target for that or did everyone just spam their games? I'll be getting 600 points for my wins rather than 600, but will be the only person in the top 20 to do so because so many people have just joined tonnes of games to ensure they get the medal, win or lose. I think the benefits of completing the challenge without spamming games should be greater.

It's not looking good for me. I've used 15 chances so far and won 4 games. I have 3 still in progress, of which 2 might still be wins. If I win the 2 that currently look good, I'll be in a position of needing to win 3 of my last 4 attempts. Not impossible, but certainly difficult. I won't join more than the 19 games. If I fail on 19, then so be it.

As for you main point, I'm not sure. Do we reward volume of work, or accuracy? That is a question that planners struggle with in every field, and I think there's pros and cons either way. I think DoomYoshi's 2-tier point system is an inspired way to try to reward both. It may still need further tweaks as time goes on.
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Re: September Challenge -- A Boat Afloat

Postby Royal Panda on Sat Sep 20, 2014 11:28 pm

iAmCaffeine wrote:I've played 12 games and won 4; I just need 1 more win for each setting. Anyone else on target for that or did everyone just spam their games? I'll be getting 600 points for my wins rather than 600, but will be the only person in the top 20 to do so because so many people have just joined tonnes of games to ensure they get the medal, win or lose. I think the benefits of completing the challenge without spamming games should be greater.


I ended up winning 11/16, which I'm quite proud of!
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Re: September Challenge -- A Boat Afloat

Postby iAmCaffeine on Sun Sep 21, 2014 7:56 am

Royal Panda wrote:
iAmCaffeine wrote:I've played 12 games and won 4; I just need 1 more win for each setting. Anyone else on target for that or did everyone just spam their games? I'll be getting 600 points for my wins rather than 600, but will be the only person in the top 20 to do so because so many people have just joined tonnes of games to ensure they get the medal, win or lose. I think the benefits of completing the challenge without spamming games should be greater.


I ended up winning 11/16, which I'm quite proud of!


Nice work!

Dukasaur wrote:As for you main point, I'm not sure. Do we reward volume of work, or accuracy? That is a question that planners struggle with in every field, and I think there's pros and cons either way. I think DoomYoshi's 2-tier point system is an inspired way to try to reward both. It may still need further tweaks as time goes on.


Well do you reward skill or spam? Quality or quantity? I would always go with the former of both options and I believe most others would as well, especially from concerns already expressed consistently throughout these challenges.
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Re: September Challenge -- A Boat Afloat

Postby Dukasaur on Sun Sep 21, 2014 2:12 pm

iAmCaffeine wrote:
Dukasaur wrote:As for you main point, I'm not sure. Do we reward volume of work, or accuracy? That is a question that planners struggle with in every field, and I think there's pros and cons either way. I think DoomYoshi's 2-tier point system is an inspired way to try to reward both. It may still need further tweaks as time goes on.


Well do you reward skill or spam? Quality or quantity? I would always go with the former of both options and I believe most others would as well, especially from concerns already expressed consistently throughout these challenges.

Of course it's a clear choice when you put it in those insulting terms. Who wants to be responsible for spam? But the people who do prefer that option might think of it in other terms. They might think that playing 1500 games on the same setting in a month requires qualities like perseverance, determination and hard work.

In real life, anyway, most people insist on getting paid for the quantity of their work rather than the quality. So it would seem reasonable that at least some of those people would bring that attitude to their online existence as well, does it not?

As for the concerns expressed, they have obviously been listened to. There were a lot of people who thought it unfair that quantity was the only way to win these challenges, which is why Doom changed the scoring system so that you could choose to be rewarded for either quantity or quality, depending on your personal philosophy. You've won the right to be rewarded on your terms. Why is that not enough? Why do you want to take that privilege away from those who hold to the opposite philosophy?

E.M. Forster wrote:"No--oh no! I mean he may be, but it would be loathsome stiff. His brain is filled with the husks of books, culture--horrible; we want him to wash out his brain and go to the real thing. We want to show him how he may get upsides with life. As I said, either friends or the country, some"--she hesitated--"either some very dear person or some very dear place seems necessary to relieve life's daily grey, and to show that it is grey. If possible, one should have both."

Some of her words ran past Mr. Wilcox. He let them run past. Others he caught and criticized with admirable lucidity.

"Your mistake is this, and it is a very common mistake. This young bounder has a life of his own. What right have you to conclude it is an unsuccessful life, or, as you call it, 'grey'?"

"Because--"

"One minute. You know nothing about him. He probably has his own joys and interests--wife, children, snug little home. That's where we practical fellows"--he smiled--"are more tolerant than you intellectuals. We live and let live, and assume that things are jogging on fairly well elsewhere, and that the ordinary plain man may be trusted to look after his own affairs. I quite grant--I look at the faces of the clerks in my own office, and observe them to be dull, but I don't know what's going on beneath. So, by the way, with London. I have heard you rail against London, Miss Schlegel, and it seems a funny thing to say but I was very angry with you. What do you know about London? You only see civilization from the outside. I don't say in your case, but in too many cases that attitude leads to morbidity, discontent, and Socialism."

She admitted the strength of his position, though it undermined imagination. As he spoke, some outposts of poetry and perhaps of sympathy fell ruining, and she retreated to what she called her "second line"--to the special facts of the case.

"His wife is an old bore," she said simply. "He never came home last Saturday night because he wanted to be alone, and she thought he was with us."
Avoid petty laws and useless officials.
Balance personal rights with social duties.
Prize truth — beauty — love — seeking harmony with the infinite.
Be not a cancer on the earth — Leave room for nature — Leave room for nature.
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Re: September Challenge -- A Boat Afloat

Postby iAmCaffeine on Mon Sep 22, 2014 4:48 am

Dukasaur wrote:In real life, anyway, most people insist on getting paid for the quantity of their work rather than the quality. So it would seem reasonable that at least some of those people would bring that attitude to their online existence as well, does it not?


That really depends on the industry you're working in, but since that's not directly applicable to an online risk site it's pretty irrelevant.
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Lieutenant iAmCaffeine
 
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Re: September Challenge -- A Boat Afloat

Postby iAmCaffeine on Tue Sep 23, 2014 9:40 am

I'm now on 12 games with just a sequential win required, of which I have one active. Looks like I'll be one of few to complete the challenge in under 19 games.
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Re: September Challenge -- A Boat Afloat

Postby Blitzkrieg Frank on Thu Sep 25, 2014 4:23 am

loutil wrote:
molespe wrote:Well, I got more than 900 points, so it is not impossible. You need to be lucky, of course, but a challenge needs to be a bit...challenging to make it interesting

It also helps when you have some players deadbeating in your games and some rather strange bombing patterns :)...
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Re: September Challenge -- A Boat Afloat

Postby Blitzkrieg Frank on Thu Sep 25, 2014 4:25 am

Blitzkrieg Frank wrote:
loutil wrote:
molespe wrote:Well, I got more than 900 points, so it is not impossible. You need to be lucky, of course, but a challenge needs to be a bit...challenging to make it interesting

It also helps when you have some players deadbeating in your games and some rather strange bombing patterns :)...

Lou 9 wins on this map with 3 players with a game count of 19 is possible. The challenge needs to be a little hard so everyone doesn't achieve the medal. I'm at 15 games and have done it =D> =D> =D> =D> All hail the great blitzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzz
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