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Foundry Death?

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Postby Night Strike on Wed Jan 02, 2008 10:29 pm

Wow, I just read the entire 8.5 pages of this thing. :shock:

Here's my take on things:

1. More cartos are a must. I am truly surprised at how long the admins have left Coleman here virtually by himself. I know Andy is the chief monkey, but there has to be more help around here (especially when I've been seeing Andy in Sugs&Bugs a lot, which I thought was jennifermarie's job). I don't necessarily know how the work load should be divided, but I do know that Coleman should be doing much more checking on XML rather than graphics. Others are much better at graphics.

2. Don't be afraid to move a map backwards in the process. As the saying goes, "One step backword and two step forward." I did not pay attention to Civil War and others that had a giant revamp called for/done while in Final Forge, but if a map is going to undertake a large change, move it back to the main foundry. Same if a map in the foundry (or perhaps forge) appears to be abandoned, move it back to ideas.

3. The first post as well as all subsequent posts containing updates MUST contain what the update has fixed as well as what the cartographer has in mind for the next step. Aside from being interested in the Solar System map anyway, I felt that maxdetjens did a great job of announcing his fixes and plans to move the map forward. (I know cairnswk does this mostly as well, and I'm sure some other do too.) Not only does this keep the interest of current aids, but it allows for a new person to come by and jump into more effective critiques much easier.

4. Foundry and Ideas maps should have a rotating sticky. Once an update is posted, if the map has not had much criticism for a day or two, a cartos should place a sticky on the topic to bring focus to the map. After a couple days, the sticky is removed and the thread evaluated. If there was a positive contribution, the map should continue. If posts are negative or there weren't very many, the maker should post an update that goes in a different direction (or that looks better in their eyes), or the cartos should encourage abandonment until a later time.

Well that's my 4 cents. Sorry it was long, but I hope a view of a non-cartographer helps.
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Postby sfhbballnut on Wed Jan 02, 2008 11:16 pm

don't know how long this discussion's been going, but on the topic, I used to be pretty active in the foundry, giving my opinion on maps and looking them over for issues and such. i've slacked off of late for shear size and a little bit of time constraint, there's just so much going on its tough to keep up with a project and spend adaquet time looking it over. Matbe i've just goten a touch lazy, but last i remember commenting on a few maps and not hearing about them at all again. i'm not much of an examle, but that's just what I've seen
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Postby Bad Speler on Wed Jan 02, 2008 11:43 pm

In response to Night Strike, here are my views on what he brought up.

1. Completely agree, the Foundry has always needed more Cartos (not that Coleman and Andy have been doing badly, they just need a few more people to help and give more free time to then.)

2. Undecided, but leaning towards disagreeing. To me it doesn't seem right to move a map backwards, but it may be needed to help the process. Any changes suggested at FF could also be suggested at the main foundry and changes could be made at either stage.

3. Partially Disagree. It would make it easier for the foundry, but I think it should be up to the mapmaker. I suggest this be made as a guideline in the How to Make a Map

4. Disagree. That would be troublesome and too time consuming for the Cartos. A simple bump would suffice.
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Postby AndyDufresne on Wed Jan 02, 2008 11:46 pm

I think number 3 would actually help commenting. If a regular record was kept like this:
    Latest Image and the latest updates to it.

    Below that links to previous updates (not images, they just clog the page) along with what has changed from update to update).

I think this would greatly help the commenting...Coleman and I may look into mandating something similar.


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Postby Night Strike on Thu Jan 03, 2008 12:02 am

AndyDufresne wrote:I think number 3 would actually help commenting. If a regular record was kept like this:
    Latest Image and the latest updates to it.

    Below that links to previous updates (not images, they just clog the page) along with what has changed from update to update).
I think this would greatly help the commenting...Coleman and I may look into mandating something similar.


--Andy


Speaking of.........any thread that keeps every single version in the first post is typically a skip-by-it for me. I can't wait long enough for that many pictures to load.

As for Bad Speler, the rotating stickies shouldn't be too hard if there are a couple more cartos. It could also save time in the long run by encouraging the stoppage of maps that aren't getting much support.
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Postby Bad Speler on Thu Jan 03, 2008 12:06 am

Night Strike wrote:
AndyDufresne wrote:I think number 3 would actually help commenting. If a regular record was kept like this:
    Latest Image and the latest updates to it.

    Below that links to previous updates (not images, they just clog the page) along with what has changed from update to update).
I think this would greatly help the commenting...Coleman and I may look into mandating something similar.


--Andy


Speaking of.........any thread that keeps every single version in the first post is typically a skip-by-it for me. I can't wait long enough for that many pictures to load.

As for Bad Speler, the rotating stickies shouldn't be too hard if there are a couple more cartos. It could also save time in the long run by encouraging the stoppage of maps that aren't getting much support.

Thats true, but only if there are more cartos do I agree with that.
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Postby Night Strike on Thu Jan 03, 2008 12:06 am

Yeah, most of my points (and everyone else's) can only be done with more cartos.
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Postby Bad Speler on Thu Jan 03, 2008 12:09 am

Night Strike wrote:Yeah, most of my points (and everyone else's) can only be done with more cartos.

Especially the first one :)
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Postby oaktown on Thu Jan 03, 2008 3:10 am

more cartos, more cartos... everybody is singing the same song here. But now that I have had a couple of drinks (after missing new year celebrations with the ick) let me share with you some of the questions I have recently posed in the Pixel Pushers usergroup.

To begin with, we all agree that more cartography assistants will be a good thing. For the most part I'm on board with this. But as with everything else, I'd like to push everyone's thinking and suggest that more in itself is not better if we don't have a system in place that makes sense.

Let me also throw out there that as the job is currently structured there is no way I would want to take on a C.A. job. I don't have the time to do what Coleman does. The folks I would like to see as C.A.s don't have the time to do what Coleman does. And the people who probably do have the time to do what Coleman does would not be among my first (or second, or third) choices as C.A.s. So...

1. What should the expectations of a Cartography Assistant be? How many posts should they make a day, how many threads should they follow closely, what should they be responsible for, etc?

2. What is a good model for the division of labor among the Cartography Assistants?

Some ideas have been thrown around already, and certainly none of this is official, but if there are going to be new C.A.s it would be good to hear some new and original ideas for how to structure the job.
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Postby rebelman on Thu Jan 03, 2008 3:25 am

oaktown you talk a lot of sense in your last post - you are someone i would have considered to be an ideal candidate for a c a job but as you pointed out you don't have the time and the same is possibly true of the other ideal candidates as well which is exactly why cairns chose to step down. A greater division of labour in a more clearly defined way is a must if a/ the right people are to be recruited and b/ that the above highlighted issues are tackled.

Evil thought for the day (a not so bright division of labour): Gimil could take charge of finding spelling and grammatical mistakes in maps and posts :lol: :P - he started it by mocking chat mods.
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Postby AndyDufresne on Thu Jan 03, 2008 3:41 am

Just to let everyone partly in on a big secret...announcements may be made in the near future in the Foundry regarding some of the discussion topics. :)


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Postby oaktown on Thu Jan 03, 2008 4:21 am

rebelman wrote:oaktown... you are someone i would have considered to be an ideal candidate for a c a job but as you pointed out you don't have the time

right... that and the fact that i would have to start putting more thought into what I post.

As for mocking chat mods, it's nice to see you posting in a thread that is less than four months old, rebelman. :)
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Postby gimil on Thu Jan 03, 2008 7:48 am

rebelman wrote:Evil thought for the day (a not so bright division of labour): Gimil could take charge of finding spelling and grammatical mistakes in maps and posts :lol: :P - he started it by mocking chat mods.


Dont worry its not your fault chat mod isnt a real position. :)
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Postby mibi on Thu Jan 03, 2008 7:58 am

AndyDufresne wrote:Just to let everyone partly in on a big secret...announcements may be made in the near future in the Foundry regarding some of the discussion topics. :)


--Andy




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Postby DiM on Thu Jan 03, 2008 12:43 pm

regarding the CAs and labour division. i have this in mind. of course it is subjected to changes in whatever area people think it needs improvement.

ok so we have:
1. andy - almighty ruler, foundry foreman and lovable monkey.
2. Map Ideas CA - this guy will spend most of his time in the ideas subforum sorting deleting and moving things around. he makes sure each new cartographer knows what map making means he talks with them by pm explaining that something done in paint will never be accepted and so on. he is responsible for moving things to the main foundry after all the criterias are met (complete info in first post, 2 updates, interest in map, etc) he must study each map and find out the biggest flaws of the map (mainly gameplay) and pointing them up for discussion. he will be mercyless and anything that lingers in the ideas for a certain amount of time is locked and merged with the map ideas thread. no use in keeping 100 threads of abandoned maps. generally if a guy is determined about a map and he has enough interest from the community the thread should get at least 1-2 updates and plenty of discussion in a week. he doesn't need to post daily but he must post at least once for each update and that post must be constructive not something like "lol" or "looks great"
3. Main Foundry CA - this guy must take care of the projects that escaped the ideas and start helping them in the right direction. again he must analyze the map discover flaws (if any) give graphical tips and generally follow each thread and make sure all issues are solved that the map meets size guidelines and all that stuff. he has to post after each update and has to gauge the interest in the map. if at any point a map thread starts slipping down he must make the decision weather the map has reached FF or the map has simply lost interest. in the first case he talks to andy to move it and in the last case he starts resurrecting it. if resurrection fails he talks to the map maker and they take the decision of either abandoning it or putting it on vacation.
4. Main Foundry XML CA - he makes sure the map is possible in the current xml system and checks the xml once it is done.
5. Final Forge CA - double checks everything and makes sure all the little nit pickings are brought up and solved before talking to andy about quenching.
6. Final Forge XML CA - double checks the xml.

there you go. 6 CAs that will hopefully make sure no maps are prematurely forged, no maps have xml errors, and no maps escape ideas only to be abandoned soon after.
in theory the process should be smoother, faster, produce better quality maps and last but not least keep the foundry a bit cleaner.

but this is not all. all these people will have a subforum only for themselves where they'll have a thread for each map.
why? for better keeping track of maps.

it's really easy. let's say somebody starts a map in the ideas. the map ideas CA will start his own thread in the secret subforum where he writes his thoughts tracks the progress and so on. when he considers the map worthy of the main foundry the respective ca and xml ca take over that thread and have all the info they need. all the issues that were solved any concerns and so on. they proceed on writing there what they think they keep track of progress and updates and then give the thread over to the FF CA and FF xml CA when the map is ready for FF.

the map ideas CA will probably be the hardest job as he needs plenty of time for all those new threads, he needs to have the balls to say it when a map sucks and he must not be afraid to shut down a map when it deserves it. he mustn't be a graphics expert. only decent skills are needed but he must understand gameplay very well. xml doesn't matter.

the foundry CA must have very good graphic skills because sometimes he'll need to explain the map maker what to do, he must also have gameplay skills. moderate amount of free time is required

the foundry CA must be a real nit picker. very attentive to small details. if the system goes well he'll need just a minimum amount of time as 99% of the issues will have been solved by the previous CAs.

the 2 xml CA must have extensive knowledge of the xml and must help the map makers when they encounter a xml related problem. in theory the amount of time needed is rather small. if you ask why 2 xml CAs then the answer is simple. it's very easy to overlook an error even if you made the xml and double checked it. it never hurts to have another pair of fresh eyes double checking your work.

as i said before this should ensure a smooth ride for all maps, it should prevent premature forging, quenching with xml errors, and most of all it will provide constant feedback for all maps.
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Postby Coleman on Thu Jan 03, 2008 12:48 pm

I'm thinking more along the lines of 3.

Map Ideas / XML (me)
Graphics / Revamps (someone else)
Gameplay (someone else)

It's just that when you restrict someone to one place it really adds a buerocracy too it that I don't like.

More then 3 in the future is always possible, but I like 3 divided the way I stated. And as always nothing could move to final forge or quench unless all 3 of us give it a pass. (I'd be needed in main foundry to ensure that a map doesn't final forge with impossible xml).

This has the added benefit of me being able to ask graphics of gameplay's opinion on something in map ideas without them saying "I'm the main foundry CA bugger off". I don't want to divide labor too much.

The recent xml problems can be attributed to yeti coding when he really shouldn't have (late at night) and me trusting yeti without looking at the code (laziness). #-o
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Postby Night Strike on Thu Jan 03, 2008 12:52 pm

Wow, a very constructive outline by DiM. I'm impressed (and support the general ideas). Perhaps there should be two Ideas CA but only 1 XML CA.
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Postby rebelman on Thu Jan 03, 2008 12:53 pm

DiM wrote:regarding the CAs and labour division. i have this in mind. of course it is subjected to changes in whatever area people think it needs improvement.

ok so we have:
1. andy - almighty ruler, foundry foreman and lovable monkey.
2. Map Ideas CA - this guy will spend most of his time in the ideas subforum sorting deleting and moving things around. he makes sure each new cartographer knows what map making means he talks with them by pm explaining that something done in paint will never be accepted and so on. he is responsible for moving things to the main foundry after all the criterias are met (complete info in first post, 2 updates, interest in map, etc) he must study each map and find out the biggest flaws of the map (mainly gameplay) and pointing them up for discussion. he will be mercyless and anything that lingers in the ideas for a certain amount of time is locked and merged with the map ideas thread. no use in keeping 100 threads of abandoned maps. generally if a guy is determined about a map and he has enough interest from the community the thread should get at least 1-2 updates and plenty of discussion in a week. he doesn't need to post daily but he must post at least once for each update and that post must be constructive not something like "lol" or "looks great"
3. Main Foundry CA - this guy must take care of the projects that escaped the ideas and start helping them in the right direction. again he must analyze the map discover flaws (if any) give graphical tips and generally follow each thread and make sure all issues are solved that the map meets size guidelines and all that stuff. he has to post after each update and has to gauge the interest in the map. if at any point a map thread starts slipping down he must make the decision weather the map has reached FF or the map has simply lost interest. in the first case he talks to andy to move it and in the last case he starts resurrecting it. if resurrection fails he talks to the map maker and they take the decision of either abandoning it or putting it on vacation.
4. Main Foundry XML CA - he makes sure the map is possible in the current xml system and checks the xml once it is done.
5. Final Forge CA - double checks everything and makes sure all the little nit pickings are brought up and solved before talking to andy about quenching.
6. Final Forge XML CA - double checks the xml.

there you go. 6 CAs that will hopefully make sure no maps are prematurely forged, no maps have xml errors, and no maps escape ideas only to be abandoned soon after.
in theory the process should be smoother, faster, produce better quality maps and last but not least keep the foundry a bit cleaner.

but this is not all. all these people will have a subforum only for themselves where they'll have a thread for each map.
why? for better keeping track of maps.

it's really easy. let's say somebody starts a map in the ideas. the map ideas CA will start his own thread in the secret subforum where he writes his thoughts tracks the progress and so on. when he considers the map worthy of the main foundry the respective ca and xml ca take over that thread and have all the info they need. all the issues that were solved any concerns and so on. they proceed on writing there what they think they keep track of progress and updates and then give the thread over to the FF CA and FF xml CA when the map is ready for FF.

the map ideas CA will probably be the hardest job as he needs plenty of time for all those new threads, he needs to have the balls to say it when a map sucks and he must not be afraid to shut down a map when it deserves it. he mustn't be a graphics expert. only decent skills are needed but he must understand gameplay very well. xml doesn't matter.

the foundry CA must have very good graphic skills because sometimes he'll need to explain the map maker what to do, he must also have gameplay skills. moderate amount of free time is required

the foundry CA must be a real nit picker. very attentive to small details. if the system goes well he'll need just a minimum amount of time as 99% of the issues will have been solved by the previous CAs.

the 2 xml CA must have extensive knowledge of the xml and must help the map makers when they encounter a xml related problem. in theory the amount of time needed is rather small. if you ask why 2 xml CAs then the answer is simple. it's very easy to overlook an error even if you made the xml and double checked it. it never hurts to have another pair of fresh eyes double checking your work.

as i said before this should ensure a smooth ride for all maps, it should prevent premature forging, quenching with xml errors, and most of all it will provide constant feedback for all maps.


not sure if the available bodies are there but ideally in my opinion the above ca should not be map makers themselves or at least not any more to me its a conflict of interest for a carto to also be a map maker or coder or at least an active one as its almost impossible for an active map maker or coder to remain unbiased on his own maps and those of his buddies and as well as that i would much prefer our best map makers and coders to be concentrating on what they are good at ie map making and coding.
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Postby Coleman on Thu Jan 03, 2008 12:58 pm

Calling shenanigans on all this. You really want people to direct the process with no map making experience and you want to set in stone where they can be in the forums?

If there is only one boss it can be a conflict of interest, but if there are multiple people the person working on a map would need the others to okay it, which they may not.

Also, factories sucks, I'm abandoning it. The gameplay is bad and I'm happier with my other projects.
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Postby oaktown on Thu Jan 03, 2008 12:59 pm

I'd been leaning toward a structure similar to DiM's, with division of labor by subforum, but as a result of discussions yesterday I've got something slightly different in mind.

Instead of splitting up the jobs by forum, split up the jobs by area of interest/expertise. Give each CA a 'stamp' that they put on a map when it meets a required level of expectations. An Ideas CA gives an initial stamp when the map has the basics, has attracted interest, and shows promise. The XML CA stamps the map when the code is correct and the army counts are aligned. The graphics CA stamps the map when the colors, borders, text, etc meet all standards and address all concerns. The game play CA gives a stamp when play issues meet standards and address all concerns. Any map will need the Ideas stamp to move to the Foundry, will need the Gameplay and Graphics stamp to be Forged, and will need the XML stamp (and Andy's approval) to be quenched.

Any one industrious CA could be responsible for giving more than one stamp, but that's up to the CAs to work out.

Damn, fast-posted by Coleman!
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Postby Coleman on Thu Jan 03, 2008 1:01 pm

oaktown wrote:I'd been leaning toward a structure similar to DiM's, with division of labor by subforum, but as a result of discussions yesterday I've got something slightly different in mind.

Instead of splitting up the jobs by forum, split up the jobs by area of interest/expertise. Give each CA a 'stamp' that they put on a map when it meets a required level of expectations. An Ideas CA gives an initial stamp when the map has the basics, has attracted interest, and shows promise. The XML CA stamps the map when the code is correct and the army counts are aligned. The graphics CA stamps the map when the colors, borders, text, etc meet all standards and address all concerns. The game play CA gives a stamp when play issues meet standards and address all concerns. Any map will need the Ideas stamp to move to the Foundry, will need the Gameplay and Graphics stamp to be Forged, and will need the XML stamp (and Andy's approval) to be quenched.

Any one industrious CA could be responsible for giving more than one stamp, but that's up to the CAs to work out.

Damn, fast-posted by Coleman!
No that's good, I need people to back me up on this.

If we end up going this route and it doesn't work then we can try what you guys came up with.
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Postby gimil on Thu Jan 03, 2008 1:02 pm

I stopped reading after the i see how beurocratic DiM's suggestion was.

6 is to much.

3 i agree with who have there own area of expertise with plenty of room to cross over. The CA's should be a team to work together, not some group deligaed a single dutie in their corner of the foundry.
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Postby gimil on Thu Jan 03, 2008 1:03 pm

oaktown wrote:I'd been leaning toward a structure similar to DiM's, with division of labor by subforum, but as a result of discussions yesterday I've got something slightly different in mind.

Instead of splitting up the jobs by forum, split up the jobs by area of interest/expertise. Give each CA a 'stamp' that they put on a map when it meets a required level of expectations. An Ideas CA gives an initial stamp when the map has the basics, has attracted interest, and shows promise. The XML CA stamps the map when the code is correct and the army counts are aligned. The graphics CA stamps the map when the colors, borders, text, etc meet all standards and address all concerns. The game play CA gives a stamp when play issues meet standards and address all concerns. Any map will need the Ideas stamp to move to the Foundry, will need the Gameplay and Graphics stamp to be Forged, and will need the XML stamp (and Andy's approval) to be quenched.

Any one industrious CA could be responsible for giving more than one stamp, but that's up to the CAs to work out.

Damn, fast-posted by Coleman!


a perfect system, room for crossover along with someone making decisions based on there expertise.
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Postby DiM on Thu Jan 03, 2008 1:04 pm

Coleman wrote:I'm thinking more along the lines of 3.

Map Ideas / XML (me)
Graphics / Revamps (someone else)
Gameplay (someone else)

It's just that when you restrict someone to one place it really adds a buerocracy too it that I don't like.

More then 3 in the future is always possible, but I like 3 divided the way I stated. And as always nothing could move to final forge or quench unless all 3 of us give it a pass. (I'd be needed in main foundry to ensure that a map doesn't final forge with impossible xml).

This has the added benefit of me being able to ask graphics of gameplay's opinion on something in map ideas without them saying "I'm the main foundry CA bugger off". I don't want to divide labor too much.

The recent xml problems can be attributed to yeti coding when he really shouldn't have (late at night) and me trusting yeti without looking at the code (laziness). #-o


i suggested 6 people for the following reasons:

1. most of the people i have in mind complain about free time
2. having more persons to look at the same thing finds and solves errors faster.
3. the people aren't forced in one place. a map ideas ca is more than welcome to post in a ff map.
4. i insist on 2 xml people because as i said especially when it comes to thousands of boring codelines mistakes are easy to make.

of course i wouldn't mind having 3 people as you said if those 3 people can do the job of 6 without slacking.
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Postby DiM on Thu Jan 03, 2008 1:06 pm

rebelman wrote:not sure if the available bodies are there but ideally in my opinion the above ca should not be map makers themselves or at least not any more to me its a conflict of interest for a carto to also be a map maker or coder or at least an active one as its almost impossible for an active map maker or coder to remain unbiased on his own maps and those of his buddies and as well as that i would much prefer our best map makers and coders to be concentrating on what they are good at ie map making and coding.


i doubt a subjective CA that favours others will last too long so i won't fear that. remember --- :wink:
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