Foundry Death?

[Coleman]

You edited! That's cheating.

Anyway, I agree with it just being the holidays but I'm nervous anyways.

The xml update is soon (less than a month or two I think). The size update less soon (probably 3 months or more from what I see). Play testing area is not at all soon as far as I know (maybe this year, maybe not).

Advertising the foundry is a horrible idea. It's here, they can see it if they care enough, if they don't I'd rather not have them stop by.

Not in favor of the map limiting, it was more of just bouncing a ball off a wall and seeing where it goes.

A larger crew is also what I view as the best solution. At least 3 dedicated commenters (even if they are cartos) should help people be happier about their maps and not feel so ignored.

[Lone.prophet]

i think you should start by deleting all non used threads

[oaktown]

Advertising the foundry is a horrible idea. It's here, they can see it if they care enough, if they don't I'd rather not have them stop by.

Yeah, I'm trying to keep the Maps thread current in the General Discussions, but it's largely ignored. But it's still a good idea to try, because then nobody can come in and complain that we're exclusive and ignoring the concerns of the rest of the CC comunity.

[Qwert]

Maybe we need Dim and Qwert back to create some controversy, and stir things up a little again.

Yea look topic Petition for biger map,you get 100 post in 2-3 days.

[rebelman]

As one of the outsiders who has tried to visit this place more often in recent times - I think there are some possible solutions that could be considered.

Firstly more interaction with general discussion is definitely a good thing, as is the fact that many cartos have their maps in thier sigs especially with clickys, i do think live chat could also be used more as those guys and girls are usually hanging around doing nothing and if asked would happily comment / look at a thread.

I think polls are part of the problem in that several people come along and vote in them but dont comment - i would eliminate all polls going forward - and ask people to post their opinions instead.

Im like a broken record on this but map makers should never jump down the throat or respond with a smart remark to a comment on their map if its genuine criticism take it on board if its not ignore it or as we say in political circles "note it"

Its also vital to remember that most members of the playing population have no idea of what work is involved in making a map and in some ways their comments or lack there of reflects this.

i mentioned chat above but the power of a pm should not be underestimated i have got pms from some map makers who asked me to have a look at their thread and pass comments - i suspect any player thats contacted in that way would be honored to come along and comment as they would consider themselves special and important - we all like having our egos stroked occasionally.

[Coleman]

My only disagreements are polls as being worthless because people just vote without talking and that map makers shouldn't jump down peoples throats in the face of comments.

Sometimes misinformed comments (they didn't read or ignored an early post) deserve a sound thrashing. I'd rather not have people then have 3 new people who only bring up old arguments without new evidence or reasoning.

It's vital enough that they just say like or dislike on some things or if they just don't help the maps they dislike. It's likely lack of activity may start holding more maps back more often soon and that it may not be a bad thing if it happens.

[oaktown]

My only disagreements are polls as being worthless because people just vote without talking and that map makers shouldn't jump down peoples throats in the face of comments.

I would say the Foundry polls are useless because of the way most of them are worded. Most polls are clearly designed to elicit a particular outcome. Such polls should be removed.

Sometimes misinformed comments (they didn't read or ignored an early post) deserve a sound thrashing. I'd rather not have people then have 3 new people who only bring up old arguments without new evidence or reasoning.

Hmm, I'm a proponent of tough love, but I've been guilty many times of bringning up dead/resolved issues. Sometimes you just can't read 25 pages of posts. I feel it is the responsibility of the mapmaker to either clearly spell out what the current and resolved issues are, or suck it up and deal with the redundancy.

It's vital enough that they just say like or dislike on some things or if they just don't help the maps they dislike. It's likely lack of activity may start holding more maps back more often soon and that it may not be a bad thing if it happens.

When users say "I like it" or "this sucks" it does nothing whatsoever to help a map progress. The trouble is that maps are currently being moved along when the discussion ends, not when the map is ready.

[Coleman]

Well the way the process works is if there is no discussion then we assume everyone is satisfied. If this isn't the case then people need to speak up or we need to change that process.

[rebelman]

My only disagreements are polls as being worthless because people just vote without talking and that map makers shouldn't jump down peoples throats in the face of comments.

Sometimes misinformed comments (they didn't read or ignored an early post) deserve a sound thrashing. I'd rather not have people then have 3 new people who only bring up old arguments without new evidence or reasoning.

It's vital enough that they just say like or dislike on some things or if they just don't help the maps they dislike. It's likely lack of activity may start holding more maps back more often soon and that it may not be a bad thing if it happens.

i am open to persuasion on the polls point but i disagree that misinformed comments deserve a sound thrashing - seriously everyone has their own opinion just because its daft does not make it any less their opinion. I know from experience what you guys are like but this is far from true for all and i do think the nice approach would be to the long term benefit of the foundry.

[DiM]

The xml update is soon (less than a month or two I think). The size update less soon (probably 3 months or more from what I see). Play testing area is not at all soon as far as I know (maybe this year, maybe not).

the xml update hass on the to do list for how long? 6 months? 8 months?
i'm sorry but if an update takes this long to be implemented you're bound to lose map makers and posters. i have so many ideas and i had really high hopes on the xml update. i saw that it never came and now i'm tired of waiting. chapter 3 will be my last map. maybe not forever but at least for a long time.

the size update is another issue that's been waited for over 6 months. again people are fed up with waiting. and when it will come it probably won't be even half of what people are expecting. maps like troy will still be impossible so why bother?

as for the play testing area i really don't see what wrong with it. i really don't. it's probably the easiest to implement. lack needs to upload the maps and then a few testers play some games then lack deletes those games. easy as pie. each batch of maps has at least 2,3 if not all maps with bugs. some have minor bugs some have big bugs. these bugs cost lack potential customers and money. if a new player comes on CC and in his first game he playes a flawed map where he loses miserably because of a bug he'll probably never come back.

anyway i have a longer post written on another pc but the internet there crashed. luckily i saved the post on a txt file. i'll put it up later.

[cairnswk]

Hmm, I'm a proponent of tough love, but I've been guilty many times of bringning up dead/resolved issues. Sometimes you just can't read 25 pages of posts. I feel it is the responsibility of the mapmaker to either clearly spell out what the current and resolved issues are, or suck it up and deal with the redundancy.

I still think the site needs overhauling.
Towards this end we have a map that can appear and is adjustable on each 1st page as first post.
Why can't this first post be repeated as the header of each subsequent page (already suggested before in ?Suggestions), so that:
1. the latest version appears at the top of every page
2. a list of resolved issues is stipulated as being already decided so that these issues don't coem up again and again as begin dead water commments from commentors who don't read the thread.

[Coleman]

In the interest of saying this quickly and with no regard to tact at all, DiM, lack has stuff that matters more he was busy doing. So give it a rest.

The play testing area has concerns we haven't agreed on. Mostly the idea that if it is too user friendly people could just make and play infinite maps and maps we'd never allow regardless of status or payment for no points. If we add it you'll likely need moderator help to use it.

Save the longer post and make a blanket out of it.

I still agree that it is the map makers right to be a little upset if someone brings up the same thing with no new argument.

[cairnswk]

I still agree that it is the map makers right to be a little upset if someone brings up the same thing with no new argument.

Agreed

[AndyDufresne]

Agreed with Coleman, in regards to harping about the XML update and "everything else that hasn't happened."

Quiet down, it will happen.


--Andy

[DiM]

Hmm, I'm a proponent of tough love, but I've been guilty many times of bringning up dead/resolved issues. Sometimes you just can't read 25 pages of posts. I feel it is the responsibility of the mapmaker to either clearly spell out what the current and resolved issues are, or suck it up and deal with the redundancy.

I still think the site needs overhauling.
Towards this end we have a map that can appear and is adjustable on each 1st page as first post.
Why can't this first post be repeated as the header of each subsequent page (already suggested before in ?Suggestions), so that:
1. the latest version appears at the top of every page
2. a list of resolved issues is stipulated as being already decided so that these issues don't coem up again and again as begin dead water commments from commentors who don't read the thread.

i don't think that putting the latest map and resolved issues on top of every page is the best way to go. especially since with a little bit of organization every map maker can do what i do. look in the aor: magic thread: http://www.conquerclub.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=35645&postdays=0&postorder=asc&start=0

in the first post i have all updates and at each update i explain what i did.

for example:

V4
DONE:
* replaced corn farm and corn mill with rabbit farm and butchery
* replaced wheat field and bakery with berry field and basket weaver
* added routes on the ice bridge to indicate it's purpose.
* added road signs on the ice bridge for feeling and for further indication that that's a path.
* modified the legend and resource graphics to represent the new changes.
* added a glow to the sanctuary to draw attention on it.

this way people can see the progress of the map and al isssues that were taken care of.

[rebelman]

Well the way the process works is if there is no discussion then we assume everyone is satisfied. If this isn't the case then people need to speak up or we need to change that process.

i would advocate a change in process so that a particular quality level is required to move to the next stage and only then can the map progress

ie a certain standard is required as a min. for each stage and let the map maker know if they ask what is needed to reach the next stage as in my short time on this site maps have made it to the foundry that at the time were not good enough maps made it to final forge that were not good enough and scarily maps made it to quench that were not good enough all because they met the current criteria to move from stage to stage - a solution to this seems obvious the only problem is it can't be backdated as that would cause holy war if maps got moved backwards from forge to foundry or from foundry to ideas. I would suggest this quality be judged by a panel made up of both map makers and players (i believe non map making eyes are vital to the sucess of something like this)

[oaktown]

Well the way the process works is if there is no discussion then we assume everyone is satisfied. If this isn't the case then people need to speak up or we need to change that process.

Then we need to change the process. Silence doesn't mean the map is ready - it could mean everybody is on vacation, or that everybody is ignoring the map. A map should move on when 1) it meets the gameplay/graphics standards for that phase of the process, 2) it has generated enough interest to show that the production of the map has user support, and 3) all concerns relevant to that phase have been addressed.

[Coleman]

I need examples when some of the more observant among us think we moved something before it was ready. All I can think of is maybe Spaceness.

[AndyDufresne]

The biggest examples I see someone picking out would be Civil War, Puget Sound, and perhaps Netherlands (though that was so old in the Foundry). Maybe China.


--Andy

[Coleman]

I think Civil War and Puget turned out well. Spaceness may be a problem, but I kind of knew that at the time, I was just at a loss as to what to advise about it.

[gimil]

The biggest examples I see someone picking out would be Civil War, Puget Sound, and perhaps Netherlands (though that was so old in the Foundry). Maybe China.


--Andy

the texan war? It has yet to present a large version . . .

[DiM]

In the interest of saying this quickly and with no regard to tact at all, DiM, lack has stuff that matters more he was busy doing. So give it a rest.

The play testing area has concerns we haven't agreed on. Mostly the idea that if it is too user friendly people could just make and play infinite maps and maps we'd never allow regardless of status or payment for no points. If we add it you'll likely need moderator help to use it.

don't worry about tact mate. i can take any blow.
i know lack has stuff to do stuff more important than a play testing area or xml updates and i totally understand and don't blame him. it's normal to solve current bugs before adding some new content that might bring other bugs.
i wasn't trying to blame lack i was just trying to explain what's going on.

Save the longer post and make a blanket out of it.

i won't make a blanket or a carpet or stuff like that because the post wasn't about this but rather about foundry etiquette.

[AndyDufresne]

I think what everyone has to realize...a map will most likely Dwell...perhaps horrendously...in the Final Forge sub-forum until it IS ready. It may be moved there too early for some tastes (or too late for that matter also) but it will stay there until it's ready. Look at Malta, and the other ones that have been in there for a while!


--Andy

[Coleman]

The biggest examples I see someone picking out would be Civil War, Puget Sound, and perhaps Netherlands (though that was so old in the Foundry). Maybe China.


--Andy

the texan war? It has yet to present a large version . . .

Not true, it's just hard to tell the difference.

[DiM]

here's the long post:

on my goodbye thread i said this:

i believe the responsibility falls on all shoulders.

1. the map maker. if he feels the map has no supporters then he should abandon it. working on a map by yourself with no support is pointless. also graphical issues should be easy to spot by simply comparing your map with the latest quenches.
2. the foundry leaders. they have the responsibility of supporting a map when it needs support or unplugging it's life support machines when it falls into a deep coma. final forging a map with 15 pages is silly and the fact that the map has no posts is a clear indicator that the map is not ready for ff.
3. the foundry community as a whole. i see too many people that stick to their thread and that's all they do. again i will not give any names but we are here to produce quality maps, we aren't here to compete we aren't here to brag with our graphic skills or map ideas, we are here to collaborate. some map makers don't post in other threads for fear of aiding the competition or out of jealousy or who knows for what reason. that's not normal. same goes for the non-map maker posters we have. some people come to the foundry called by a friend to post in a thread. well why not look at other maps also why hold tight to just one? the foundry needs your opinion.

perhaps the foundry needs some new rules, or a few more attendants, or more open minded cartographers. i don't know exactly what it needs but it definitely needs something extra.

i dream of a foundry where each map maker posts in other map threads, where each visitor knows how to post and where to post and gives good feedback, where any new idea is greeted with an open mind no matter how absurd it may seem, where map makers aren't afraid to share tutorials and brushes and give tips to less talented people., a place where high quality maps are produced and where everybody can come and visit and contribute to this great site.

the problems i explained then are still areound and the current lack of feedback only enhances them.

MAP MAKER EDUCATION:

1. LESSON 1. ADMIT DEFEAT. there are still very few map makers that are willing to admit defeat and abandon a map that has no feedback. there are very few that also have the guts to admit they lack the skill for map making and that no matter how brilliant their idea is it won't ever progress without quality graphics.
2. LESSON 2. WORK FAST, WORK WELL, KEEP FEEDBACK COMING.
again few map makers know when to make an update. if you think that waiting a week to update your map is a decent time then you're wrong. very wrong. keep the updates coming and the feedback will too. if i post in a map thread about something that needs to be changed and a week later i see the map maker still asking for feedback despite not putting any updates then i won't come back. and so will most people. it's about workflow and about respecting the others. on all of my maps i have lots and lots of updates despite starting from an almost finished image. if somebody wants a name moved 2px to the left i quickly provide that and the map progresses and the one that gave me the feedback is happy because he's taken into consideration. and don't go saying updates are hard to do so fast because they aren't. i'm not the best map maker or the fastest and yet no update has taken more than 1-2 hours and that's for major updates. ususally they take 1-20 minutes.

FEEDBACK GIVERS:
1. LESSON 1. LEARN THE ABC..
reading the thread before posting is a must. you'll find out what people are talking about you'll find out what issues have been discussed and you'll gain all the info needed for lesson 2.
2. LESSON 2. MAP MAKERS DON't READ MINDS.
it's true none of us have special mind reading abilities. so telling us this or that is wrong won't help much if you don't say in what way it disturbs you and perhaps even provide some info on how you'd like it to be.

2 easy lessons for all people involved in the foundry. lessons that will enhance the quality of feedback the speed of production and the overall result.

also as i said before a team of assistants are needed. not necesarily with mod powers and all. coleman can't handle all that by himself. he can't go posting in each thread everyday.

there's a lot more to be said, a lot of things can be improved but i think that if everybody learns the lessons above the foundry will be a better place and we'll be able to move to the advanced lessons.