Foundry Death?

[DiM]

2. Maps should be at or above the quality of the latest quenched maps.

this is so BS, and dont say it isnt

How can a should be bs? Maps can be a worse quality then the current maps? I don't want to release stuff that we want to immediately turn around and revamp.

It's not BS, but it is problematic because it is arbitrary... does Unit_2's next map have to look as good as Age of Magic (which I like the look of) or Iberia (which I don't like the look of)? There does need to be a set of expectations in terms of graphics quality, and those expectations will constantly change as new maps are produced. Such a set of expectations needs to be developed, and should include text and army count readability, pixelation, color palette, etc.

to be honest in an ideal foundry i'd agree with coleman. any new map must be better than the latest one. this is the only way to move forward.

but the foundry is not an ideal place and oaktown is right we'll have good looking maps decent looking maps and crappy looking maps. only the crappy ones should be removed. leave the decent ones as they are and try to improve them until you reach the map maker's limit.

if we impose a rule as coleman suggests then probably only mibi and wm will get maps quenched as they can produce stunning graphics.

[gimil]

2. Maps should be at or above the quality of the latest quenched maps.

this is so BS, and dont say it isnt

How can a should be bs? Maps can be a worse quality then the current maps? I don't want to release stuff that we want to immediately turn around and revamp.

It's not BS, but it is problematic because it is arbitrary... does Unit_2's next map have to look as good as Age of Magic (which I like the look of) or Iberia (which I don't like the look of)? There does need to be a set of expectations in terms of graphics quality, and those expectations will constantly change as new maps are produced. Such a set of expectations needs to be developed, and should include text and army count readability, pixelation, color palette, etc.

Isn't that what this place is for?

I think high quality is what we aim to produce, i dont think continues improvement is the key.

I feel that there should be no set offical standard in the foundry and that the foundry community itself should be left to set that stanard as it always has. Before FF though the map should always be checked to ensure the basic standard usually expected (if you understans what i mean) is met.

[Coleman]

Apparently I was misunderstood. Lone.prophet was anti reading so I tried to sum something up in one sentence. I believe we should strive for continued improvement of images. At the very least we shouldn't start having worse images, that's what I was saying.

As far as I know that isn't a new rule.

[militant]

In the interest of saying this quickly and with no regard to tact at all, DiM, lack has stuff that matters more he was busy doing. So give it a rest.

The play testing area has concerns we haven't agreed on. Mostly the idea that if it is too user friendly people could just make and play infinite maps and maps we'd never allow regardless of status or payment for no points. If we add it you'll likely need moderator help to use it.

Save the longer post and make a blanket out of it.

I still agree that it is the map makers right to be a little upset if someone brings up the same thing with no new argument.

Thsi is another reason to have more cartos but each for a specific area of the foundry.

[gimil]

Apparently I was misunderstood. Lone.prophet was anti reading so I tried to sum something up in one sentence. I believe we should strive for continued improvement of images. At the very least we shouldn't start having worse images, that's what I was saying.

As far as I know that isn't a new rule.

Yes in a sense the standards should continue to increase, but i dont think no lettin a map being quenched becasue its not as pritty as the last quenched batch probably wasnt the best way to word it.

I think were disussion from two different perspectives. The map standard should always be increasing but not to the extent the new batch should always look better than the old. The inrease in standard comes form the communities expectations and the quaity evolved oo its own.

Rather than the mod's deciding that a map isnt a pretty as the last lot, let it be quenched as long as its tidy, readable and legiable. If its beautiful so be, if its decent so be.

Let the community continue to set the standards as it always has.

[rebelman]

i agree with gimil's comments above a map doesnt need to look amazing to be a fine map oaktown's berlin is a good example of this it looks seriously ugly in comparison to most maps old and new but despite its appearance it has some fine gameplay and its ugliness captures the mood of the time and place in which its set.

[gimil]

i agree with gimil's comments above a map doesnt need to look amazing to be a fine map oaktown's berlin is a good example of this it looks seriously ugly in comparison to most maps old and new but despite its appearance it has some fine gameplay and its ugliness captures the mood of the time and place in which its set.

You find berlin ugly? I have to nicely diagree.

[mibi]

I think lack of interest or comments in a map just reflect the lack of interest or appeal of the idea. It takes a dedicated poster to comment on a map there are rather uninterested in. Lately there have been few 'block busters'. Iberia, malta, spaceness, feudal war, puget sound, etc are not quite house hold names nor are they terribly exciting. Esoteric maps might excite a few to a frenzy but the appeal is not broad enough to bring 50+ pages like a WW2 themed map.

I think if you are looking for trends in the foundry you might be missing the forest for the trees.

..that being said, I have had no problem with the level of comments for Iraq, Supermax and especially Skyscraper (people please stop PM'ing me)

[militant]

I think lack of interest or comments in a map just reflect the lack of interest or appeal of the idea. It takes a dedicated poster to comment on a map there are rather uninterested in. Lately there have been few 'block busters'. Iberia, malta, spaceness, feudal war, puget sound, etc are not quite house hold names nor are they terribly exciting. Esoteric maps might excite a few to a frenzy but the appeal is not broad enough to bring 50+ pages like a WW2 themed map.

I think if you are looking for trends in the foundry you might be missing the forest for the trees.

..that being said, I have had no problem with the level of comments for Iraq, Supermax and especially Skyscraper (people please stop PM'ing me)

I agree with you to a certain extent, i was going to post something similar to this. I came into the foundry and stumbled upon supermax and came to the foundry every day after that so maybe mibi is right

[rebelman]

i agree with gimil's comments above a map doesnt need to look amazing to be a fine map oaktown's berlin is a good example of this it looks seriously ugly in comparison to most maps old and new but despite its appearance it has some fine gameplay and its ugliness captures the mood of the time and place in which its set.

You find berlin ugly? I have to nicely diagree.

ugly in a good sense if that makes sense graphically its not flawless but its colour scheme and overall appearance has an ugliness that as i said reflects the time and place (also this is a great map for colour blind players) so there are many beefits to this "ugliness"

[Coleman]

Agree there, contrary to popular belief ugly and bad looking don't have the exact same meaning. It's ugly, but in a way that reflects the theme.

[gimil]

Agree there, contrary to popular belief ugly and bad looking don't have the exact same meaning. It's ugly, but in a way that reflects the theme.

I see, i misunderstood. Ugly good, not ugly bad

[oaktown]

i agree with gimil's comments above a map doesnt need to look amazing to be a fine map oaktown's berlin is a good example of this it looks seriously ugly in comparison to most maps old and new but despite its appearance it has some fine gameplay and its ugliness captures the mood of the time and place in which its set.

"ugly" is a criticism I can happily accept, because it is purely subjective. Of the four maps I've quenched, Berlin remains my favorite visually, but I don't expect everybody else to agree. And this is exactly why it becomes problematic to say that maps have to look as good as the latest maps quenched; there needs to be some level of objectivity in our evaluation of graphics. But again, I'm not proposing we tackle this right now.

[unriggable]

Question: If the foundry is dead, how did this thread manage to get six pages in less than a day?

[Coleman]

Question: If the foundry is dead, how did this thread manage to get six pages in less than a day?

We talk too much?

We're like 6 scholars or something.

[edbeard]

One of the biggest problems all forums have is that people don't want to read they want to post.

When I first come to a forum, I read the stickies and get a sense of what goes on before I post. Many other posters just treat this forum like any other so jokes, bumps and 'I agree' type posts happen quite a bit. The problem is the foundry isn't a forum like any other.

So, when you get these big threads, you'll mostly get people who won't bother to post or will just post like I said above. I'm not sure the best way around this, but I agree with cairnswk about having the top post of threads being reserved to show the updated map and pertinent information.

I'd like more people posting in the map ideas area to be honest. My biggest problem with it is if posters see a map with poor or no graphics they'll bash the map, or will just ignore it. Even when someone like mibi made his prison map some of the first posts were questioning the graphics. We all know that making updates, especially concerning gameplay are more difficult when graphics are already done. Sometimes maps have bad graphics and bad gameplay, but even then the maps are all about potential. We need to think about COULD the map become. Don't think what is it now too much.

So, go into map ideas, give the maps there a chance (maybe even click that link in my signature). Even if you don't like the direction just give your opinion as to where you would take it. They might not take it, but any posts in the threads are better than no posts. The holidays slowed things down for many of us. Now it's time to get back into gear and help each other out by posting.

[yeti_c]

i agree with gimil's comments above a map doesnt need to look amazing to be a fine map oaktown's berlin is a good example of this it looks seriously ugly in comparison to most maps old and new but despite its appearance it has some fine gameplay and its ugliness captures the mood of the time and place in which its set.

"ugly" is a criticism I can happily accept, because it is purely subjective. Of the four maps I've quenched, Berlin remains my favorite visually, but I don't expect everybody else to agree. And this is exactly why it becomes problematic to say that maps have to look as good as the latest maps quenched; there needs to be some level of objectivity in our evaluation of graphics. But again, I'm not proposing we tackle this right now.

I've gotta say I love Berlin Graphically - it's super sweet...

On topic - will someone please comment in Conqueropoly... I think it needs serious help - especially with the horrid naming of territories...

C.

[Coleman]

Edbeard, if we get more CAs then I could focus more on making sure maps with potential despite initial graphics get more attention. Right now I feel too compelled to touch everything to be able to focus as much as I want on such things.

[DiM]

Edbeard, if we get more CAs then I could focus more on making sure maps with potential despite initial graphics get more attention. Right now I feel too compelled to touch everything to be able to focus as much as I want on such things.

then by all means get mibi widow oaktown yeti_c and others to help you. they don't necessarily need to have a title and mod powers. they just need to be somehow made official brought into the discussions the mods have (i pressume they have meetings) and these new assistants will have the obligation to post and promote various areas of the foundry.

for example widowmakers will be responsible for graphic nitpicking in the final forge. onkebekende (i always missspell his name sorry) will be responsible with gameplay issues in the map ideas, yeti_c will tackle xmls with you and so on. of course all of you will talk about decisions and seek advice from eachother. if this is made then i'm sure the pace of maps will greatly improve.

i appreciate your work but since cairnswk left it is clear that 2 were better than 1 especially since there are more and more maps being produced. 1 man can't effectively handle all of them.

[rebelman]

I've gotta say I love Berlin Graphically - it's super sweet...

On topic - will someone please comment in Conqueropoly... I think it needs serious help - especially with the horrid naming of territories...

C.

seriously coleman understood my "ugly" comment i was not saying it in a negative sense in fact i would say it is one of the best examples on the site of a map that truly captures my image of the time and place in the picture tells a thousand words sense.

As for conqueropoly i agree with yeti that map needs some serious attention prior to quenching i keep meaning to post in there but its a classic case of not knowing where to start (at least one of the abandoned ones was of a superior quality even though it was still in map ideas (the one with money at the side of the board as a territory)

[Coleman]

I'd be in danger of going off topic continuing how I want to here with conqueropoly. Moving your sentiment to that topic would be helpful. Saying a past one looked better is a useful comment.

On topic I find myself distressingly agreeing with most of what DiM is saying the farther we get into this. I say distressingly because I'm so used to not agreeing with DiM that I am kind of lost as to how to continue.

[DiM]

As for conqueropoly i agree with yeti that map needs some serious attention prior to quenching i keep meaning to post in there but its a classic case of not knowing where to start (at least one of the abandoned ones was of a superior quality even though it was still in map ideas (the one with money at the side of the board as a territory)

go on and ask for a complete redesign of the map. tell the map maker to start from scratch and you'll become the new foundry asshole.

i've said this so many times and i will keep saying it until i'm heard.

a map with no posts doesn't nevesarrily mean it's a map ready to be moved on it most likely means it's a map with no interest that needs a major overhaul or it needs to be abandoned.

i'm sorry to say this but lately the final forge has become something very "cheap" (for lack of a better word). some time ago when a map reached forge it meant it's 99% done and the only concerns were a few adjustments for army circles not entire redrawing of the map.

[DiM]

On topic I find myself distressingly agreeing with most of what DiM is saying the farther we get into this. I say distressingly because I'm so used to not agreeing with DiM that I am kind of lost as to how to continue.

welcome to the darkside coleman.
i am your father

[Qwert]

you say that it will stay in the forge for as long as it takes to be quench worthy. that's wrong. maps should reach forge only when they're 99% done. as a map maker i'd hate to see people asking for major revamping if my map is in forge and i'd be less inclined to do it.

I must agree with Dim,what is point of having Main map Foundry,when map in Final forge author must complete rewamp hes map(Civil war,Netherland)
.

[gimil]

you say that it will stay in the forge for as long as it takes to be quench worthy. that's wrong. maps should reach forge only when they're 99% done. as a map maker i'd hate to see people asking for major revamping if my map is in forge and i'd be less inclined to do it.

I must agree with Dim,what is point of having Main map Foundry,when map in Final forge author must complete rewamp hes map(Civil war,Netherland)
.

I agree however alot of that blame goes to the community, rather than the system. The lack of feedback on maps has lead andy to believe the community is satisfied rather than ignorant of a map.

The key problem here is feedback/ community input.