Foundry Death?

[Coleman]

I'm growing concerned about our drop in commenters now... I don't feel comfortable putting out maps where only 8 or so people have ever said anything constructive about them. Not sure where the line is, I guess we are fine until real complaints start happening.

[fireedud]

well, if people think a map is crappy, it's their own fault for not contributing to the map while still possible (excluding those who can't speak english).

[militant]

I know it seems a bit silly but i only comment on the maps that i like or want to play. I agree with fireedud, people need to speak up if they think a map is crappy.

[cairnswk]

yeh...seems pretty lame to me also....as i am in the firing line.

Too much of a good thing?

Maybe we need Dim and Qwert back to create some controversy, and stir things up a little again.

Maybe the maps are reaching saturation point? Too many in development at one one time?

What are the answers? Don't know, but i agree with you coleman, it has become a challenge....

Personally, i think the entire site needs restructuring with a more user friendly menu system....only IMHO...there is so much wasted real estate at the top to start with.

[oaktown]

keep in mind that the last few weeks have been dead as a result of the holidays... I suspect we will soon see a gradual increase in feedback.

We've commented before on what seems to be a decrease in foundry comments. I bet if somebody could do a count we'd find that there is actually more activity these days, but there are so many maps that get started these days it's increasingly difficult to keep up with all of them. Earlier this year I could be active in every thread that had a chance of making it through the process - today I spend far more time here yet I probably look at only half of them. I didn't keep up with Feudal, South America, or Age of Magic because I recognized the mapmakers and assumed they new what they were doing. Likewise, I suspect I get less feedback these days because I've been 'vetted' so to speak.

So, I see two possible avenues:
1. we could encourage more users to visit the Foundry. Of the thousands of CC users, only a couple dozen drop in to see what's going on. Perhaps we could use a CA whose role is to advertise foundry activity?
2. increase standards from the beginning of the foundry process to tighten up the number of maps that are moving through the system. It would be nice to identify early on those maps that have little chance of being quenched so attention can focus on those that will, though I'm not entirely sure how to do this.
2.

[Coleman]

I'm interested in taking a far extreme position of limiting the number of maps people can work on at one time. I haven't talked with Andy about that yet though.

Like if you've never done a map you can only have 1. If you have done a map you can do 2. After your second you are open to 3 and never more then that.

This would decrease the number of maps in production, but would probably increase anxiety for map makers and cramp their creativity somewhat.

[Coleman]

2. increase standards from the beginning of the foundry process to tighten up the number of maps that are moving through the system. It would be nice to identify early on those maps that have little chance of being quenched so attention can focus on those that will, though I'm not entirely sure how to do this.

The only way I can think of is I start becoming more of a jerk. I'm hesitant to do this not because I mind being a jerk, but because people hating me for it cramps our productivity.

The other possibility is more cartos and needing all of cartos acceptance to move something. Or we could change our stickies in Map Ideas to announcement and sticky maps that look promising.

[gimil]

I'm interested in taking a far extreme position of limiting the number of maps people can work on at one time. I haven't talked with Andy about that yet though.

Like if you've never done a map you can only have 1. If you have done a map you can do 2. After your second you are open to 3 and never more then that.

This would decrease the number of maps in production, but would probably increase anxiety for map makers and cramp their creativity somewhat.

It seems this would only EVER effect cairns, widowmaker and mibi.

[militant]

I'm interested in taking a far extreme position of limiting the number of maps people can work on at one time. I haven't talked with Andy about that yet though.

Like if you've never done a map you can only have 1. If you have done a map you can do 2. After your second you are open to 3 and never more then that.

This would decrease the number of maps in production, but would probably increase anxiety for map makers and cramp their creativity somewhat.

Personally, i think this idea is bad, no more than three maps would be ridiculous because as we have seen DiM's maps have been a real success with the community and i have read many people are awaiting the last in the trilogy. If he was no longer allowed to make anymore maps it would infuriate people further.

[Coleman]

No I mean 3 at once. It's still bad though.

I think more cartos may be the best answer. It would help account for my decrease in availability (though I doubt anyone's noticed) and needing 3 or 4 people to agree versus just 2 takes slightly longer, allowing for more comment time.

[unriggable]

I think it has to do with the increasing complexity - people who understand this stuff inside and out leave, and nobody comes and takes their place.

[DiM]

a revolution is needed

seriously now. the foundry isn't dead it's just hibernating because of the holidays.

but there's also noticeable decrease in comments. i agree with this. people that used to comment on every map are gone, several other map makers are gone, also the size issue that was never solved, the xml update that never came or the play testing area that is still unavailable, have contributed to some map makers losing interest. there are many reasons but there are also solutions. simple solutions? probably not. will they ever be applied? again probably not.

will advertising the foundry work? i doubt it. in fact i think too much advertising will kill the foundry altogether as we'll probably have a rush of crappy maps. take 1000 random people and ask them to comment in the foundry. 900 will ignore you and won't even visit. 50 will post random spam like "i like/hate it" and 50 will post 40 "brilliant/awesome" new maps that in fact have been proposed hundreds of times. and 10 will bother to make a crappy image in paint then they'll realise map making involves much more than that and they'll leave.

and the map limiting idea is crazy. why limit creativity? you'll lose even more people if you do so.

probably the best solution is something that was proposed several times before. a larger crew of people that will have the job to comment about each and every map.

[Coleman]

a revolution is needed

Is more cartos equivalent to that for you? lol

[militant]

No I mean 3 at once. It's still bad though.

I think more cartos may be the best answer. It would help account for my decrease in availability (though I doubt anyone's noticed) and needing 3 or 4 people to agree versus just 2 takes slightly longer, allowing for more comment time.

3 at a time would be fine. I agree with all your reasons for increasing number of cartos

[yeti_c]

Reckon we just need to wait til everyone gets back from Holidays!!!

I've not been on much recently as I've been away from a decent PC for a few weeks!!

C.

[oaktown]

The only way I can think of is I start becoming more of a jerk. I'm hesitant to do this not because I mind being a jerk, but because people hating me for it cramps our productivity.

Being a jerk would certainly slow production, but it would have less desirable consequences as well... you don't want to follow Keyogi's footsteps into foundry infamy. But I would argue - again - that the reigns can be tightened up just by setting the standards high and insisting that everybody meet those standards. For instance, we still have maps getting forged that don't even mention the number of territories in the first post.

The other possibility is more cartos and needing all of cartos acceptance to move something. Or we could change our stickies in Map Ideas to announcement and sticky maps that look promising.

More cartos would certainly slow the process, but it wouldn't necessarily make it better. The foundry used to be slow but high functioning; I would say the foundry is now faster, but lower functioning; the last thing we need is a foundry that is frustratingly slow as well as low-functioning.

Instead of more cartos doing the same thing I would again argue for the division of labor: an Ideas CA who is strict about what gets through, a Foundry CA who is strict about what gets forged, and a Forge CA who is strict about what is quenched. And perhaps even a discussion CA who can also lurk the other forums to get a sense of what the community wants, try to bring new people in, etc. Because as it is set up there's no way I would want your job, Coleman, but if you made the positions more manageable you might find some takers.

I would also be in favor of limiting the number of maps anyone has in production at a given time, but I would do it this way:
• You can have an unlimited number of map ideas threads, so long as they meet the subforum requirements.
• You can have one map at any given time in the foundry... if you abandon a map or put it on vacation you may have the map moved back to ideas in order to promote something new.
• You can have one map in the Forge; a mapmaker shouldn't be fussing about trying to forge a bunch of maps anyway.

[gimil]

give it time

nudge DiM to come out of retirement and get more classic maps made

THen we'll have no problems

[Coleman]

What we would likely do is let all cartos do as much as they wanted but give some people more focus.

For instance, I'd like my focus to be Map Ideas management and XML.
Another could be Revamps and perhaps some extreme negative comments negation (I'm a little hesitant to yell at people sometimes for being negative to the point of not helping our process).
Another could be gameplay. Forcing people to make their first post be more helpful. Maybe forcing them to get some information page level stuff going in their first post actually. Making sure they aren't doing really dumb things that won't work.

This is all my thoughts though, like I said, haven't had a chance to discuss this with Andy.

All cartos could still do simple things, like alter polls if asked, and just help people in general. And of course agree on when things can move or not.

Edit: I'm not much of a fan of moving things backwards in production, in response to that part of oaktown's idea.

[oaktown]

Edit: I'm not much of a fan of moving things backwards in production, in response to that part of oaktown's idea.

Neither am I - I'd rather see a dead letter office style subforum, or perhaps drop the vacation/abandoned projects below the active ones by stickying the active threads. The idea is just to limit everybody to one active Foundry thread at a time so we can focus on what is moving through. I think this would lead to an increase in feedback, quality and speed or progress.

[Coleman]

I could just be more liberal with the abandoned Tags. I've been interested in maybe making active maps stickies and our current stickies announcements for a while, but haven't had a chance to propose it to Andy yet.

[cairnswk]

• You can have one map in the Forge; a mapmaker shouldn't be fussing about trying to forge a bunch of maps anyway.

Some people like myself....actually thrive on having two or three maps available in the process....reason....the feedback is so damn slow sometimes.
get more feedback happening, and i wouldn't have time to commit to working on three maps at once.
get me less maps to work on, and that limits the ideas i can create for maps....then the foundry is sure to lose me from lack of interest on my part.

[Coleman]

Don't worry, that's not currently even close to realistically happening. If it ever is there will be plenty of warning.

[oaktown]

Some people like myself....actually thrive on having two or three maps available in the process....reason....the feedback is so damn slow sometimes.
get more feedback happening, and i wouldn't have time to commit to working on three maps at once.

I actually agree with you cairnswk, I was just throwing ideas around. I've started new map ideas simply because feedback had dried up on another project.

Ideally, we would increase interest among the larger community, while tightening up the number of maps in the foundry by means other than arbitrary limitations. It would be better to say a map can't move because it doesn't meet expectations than to say a map doesn't move because we've capped somebody's involvement.

Limiting mapmakers to just one map in the Forge wouldn't make much impact anyway - and therefor may not be necessary - because its rare that somebody has two maps in the forge to begin with.

[gimil]

Some people like myself....actually thrive on having two or three maps available in the process....reason....the feedback is so damn slow sometimes.
get more feedback happening, and i wouldn't have time to commit to working on three maps at once.

I actually agree with you cairnswk, I was just throwing ideas around. I've started new map ideas simply because feedback had dried up on another project.

Ideally, we would increase interest among the larger community, while tightening up the number of maps in the foundry by means other than arbitrary limitations. It would be better to say a map can't move because it doesn't meet expectations than to say a map doesn't move because we've capped somebody's involvement.

Limiting mapmakers to just one map in the Forge wouldn't make much impact anyway - and therefor may not be necessary - because its rare that somebody has two maps in the forge to begin with.

I did jsut before feudals quench

[DiM]

a revolution is needed

Is more cartos equivalent to that for you? lol

read the whole post:

a revolution is needed

seriously now. the foundry isn't dead it's just hibernating because of the holidays.

but there's also noticeable decrease in comments. i agree with this. people that used to comment on every map are gone, several other map makers are gone, also the size issue that was never solved, the xml update that never came or the play testing area that is still unavailable, have contributed to some map makers losing interest. there are many reasons but there are also solutions. simple solutions? probably not. will they ever be applied? again probably not.

will advertising the foundry work? i doubt it. in fact i think too much advertising will kill the foundry altogether as we'll probably have a rush of crappy maps. take 1000 random people and ask them to comment in the foundry. 900 will ignore you and won't even visit. 50 will post random spam like "i like/hate it" and 50 will post 40 "brilliant/awesome" new maps that in fact have been proposed hundreds of times. and 10 will bother to make a crappy image in paint then they'll realise map making involves much more than that and they'll leave.

and the map limiting idea is crazy. why limit creativity? you'll lose even more people if you do so.

probably the best solution is something that was proposed several times before. a larger crew of people that will have the job to comment about each and every map.