Atlantis - v43 - BETA - P32[D,Gp,Gr,FF,XML,BETA]

[Incandenza]

I have a favor to ask: if it wouldn't be too much trouble, I'd like to see one of the maps (preferably the small) with the proposed starting neutrals laid on it. That'll make it easier, at least for me, to evaluate the gameplay.

[NemesisChild]

Silly Rj posted in the wrong thread

Yeah I caught that wrong post last night... was in the middle of replying before I realised he had removed and then worked out what had happened! I thought he had gone mad when I first read it! why was he suggesting Galleons in an ancient greek setting!

Here — just a small thing, but I'd like to see the anchors either all half on water, half on land, or all on land. The random and uneven way you have them now is a bit unnerving to the eyes, but that isn't really evry important. The one thing about your graphics I don't like are the names of the islands written there. Maybe if you curved them alont the path of the islands and reduced their opacity somewhat they would look better and not so … out of place? And as a note, even if you don't do what I suggested above — the names look better when they don't sit atop the waveline, disrupting that.

Great job on this,
.44

Hey killing

I will sort out the Anchors, they do look a bit odd, I will try to find a better sitting for them.

The Island names have been bothering me for a bit now, and I can't work out what to do with them, I will play with it today if I get a chance...
Might look at using the same Lithos Pro font for them as on the Title and the scroll.. but think it might look odd when curved!
I did have the names curved before and it was the one thing that people copmplained about alot so I straightened them out.. oh well, I will look into it,
The effect I would love to get is as if they are embedded in the seabed and visible though the water but I haven' t successfully managed that yet.

hey guys, I don't think I've dropped in here in some time. So let me start by saying you've found a great idea for a map, and you are running a fantastic thread - the information at the beginning is impressively complete. And I think you've got a good basic look your working with.

Good to see you back in our thread oak
Thanks for the postive feed back on the thread , comes in rather timely considering the qualtiy Vs quantity thread raised yesterday
Complete is our trade... being software testers we are pedantic to the nth degree!
There is nothing I hate more than incomplete documentation.. I practically had to tie Prem down to prevent him from writing a full blown requirements document and map development plan!!!

Since you're working toward a gameplay stamp, I'll focus on play. My first concern is that there are a lot of elements of the gameplay that depend on the legend. Without the legend you don't know how to use the boats, docks, ports, Zeus, Life, nor Poseidon; and the legend contains bonus info other than that on the bonus small map. You have four different non-standard attack types - bridges, dock to dock, boat to port, port to boat, - as well as three different kinds of symbol to symbol bombardments. I'm sure this will be easier to follow in-game, but at first that is a lot to take in.

I am all in favour of moving the boat bonus over to be below the mini map where I had it originally! ... see Prem I'm not the only one who thinks it should be there
as for non-standard attack types, this is one of the things we expect to get feedback if we make Beta, one of those not sure how it will work until its tried, the gameplay we have been aiming at requires this level of complexity to add to the feel of the game!

Personally, the maps that i chose to play repeatedly are those that I can size up just from the playing area - if i have to be constantly referring to the legend to know who can attack me from where I tend not to come back to the map. But that's me. I like maps to be elegant in their simplicity and playability, and the more I have to read the less elegant the play.

Boats and ports... seems like with every boat attacking every port and vice-versa things will get a bit messy. I haven't thought through exactly how it could be better, but I'm thinking that if I'm on, say, boat 4 I have to watch out for attacks from way across the board... and I'm probably going to attack the wrong territory at some point because I can hit two territories with #5 and two with #3.

On that note, if you've played Feudal you've probably run into the problem of having similarly numbered/named territories near each other. If I'm on Mu 2 I border Mu 4 and Mariny 4 - yeah, it's a dumb mistake to make, but I'm the guy who will reinforce Mu 4 when I meant to reinforce Mariny 4 at least once per game.

I have indeed run into the fuedal issue too and often make that mistake but I checked to see how popular fuedal was before going with this format .. It seems to me that the majority don't seem to mind the issue or I guess they wouldn't play it and a lot of people really like that map. Maybe just ensuring that we don't hit duplicate numbering territories may solve this .. I'm sure I can switch the numbers around and Prem probably won't mind tweaking the xml to accomodate!

As for simplicity in elegance , I agree I like those maps too but I also like the urgency and strategy element that I think our gameplay brings, the scroll is, IMHO easy to read and having to reference it every now and again shouldn't cause to much trouble, I may be wrong... It wouldn't be the first time, thanks to the graphical and text representations.
The way the gameplay is being structured makes a player have to think a little about how to approach the map and adds a bit more spice to a game.

Although I suppose one idea would be to limit the boats to only attacking ports near them (attack route marked like the docks) to encourge the use of the bigger islands to make your way to the smaller ones rather than skipping accross on a boat!

Bonuses... I see that you ran them through the calculators, but given +4 for a three teritory region which on such a large map you could easily get on the drop rubs me the wrong way. Meanwhile the 12 territory region next door gets +5. It may be your intention that most games will be won on the inner isles, but you don't want the big outer islands to be dead areas.

we have changed the bonuses a few times after thinking pretty much the same as what you have here, but we decided to go with what the bonus calc suggested. We want the basis of play to be the strategy/race scenario described in the first post. basically forcing the battle towards the center as much as possible, the idea being that the first player / team to control Ys and the Temples will gain the strategic advantage but also forcing other player/teams to dislodge them before they are too strong. its a play that we feel fits with the theme of the map and the mythicl island story. the outer islands shouldn't become too dead but I guess it is a possibiity...

Since that's probably more than you wanted to hear about play, I won't go into visuals much, other than to suggest that as you proceed think about how elements work with each other. For instance, I like the fun colors of the map, and I like the idea of using scrolls for the legend, but the fun colors and the brown scrolls don't belong on the same map.

We tried a scroll with a lot more oppacity and it just looked wrong, I can always look at the color of the scroll again... SUGGESTIONS?, the other idea I have had for this is to replicate a stone tablet for the main Legend and make the text look Carved! hmm..I wonder, does anyone think this might be better? that scroll took me ages though,

I have a favor to ask: if it wouldn't be too much trouble, I'd like to see one of the maps (preferably the small) with the proposed starting neutrals laid on it. That'll make it easier, at least for me, to evaluate the gameplay.

Incandenza
I will look at generating a map with the armies , do you want it with the numbers as they will be at the start of a game or will the usual 88 version be ok?

Nem.

[Premier2k]

Silly Rj posted in the wrong thread

Yeah I caught that wrong post last night... was in the middle of replying before I realised he had removed and then worked out what had happened! I thought he had gone mad when I first read it! why was he suggesting Galleons in an ancient greek setting!

Hey killing

I will sort out the Anchors, they do look a bit odd, I will try to find a better sitting for them.

The Island names have been bothering me for a bit now, and I can't work out what to do with them, I will play with it today if I get a chance...
Might look at using the same Lithos Pro font for them as on the Title and the scroll.. but think it might look odd when curved!
I did have the names curved before and it was the one thing that people copmplained about alot so I straightened them out.. oh well, I will look into it,
The effect I would love to get is as if they are embedded in the seabed and visible though the water but I haven' t successfully managed that yet.

The embedded effect would be cool!

hey guys, I don't think I've dropped in here in some time. So let me start by saying you've found a great idea for a map, and you are running a fantastic thread - the information at the beginning is impressively complete. And I think you've got a good basic look your working with.

Thanks Oaktown, that means a lot to us. It's been hard work so far!

Complete is our trade... being software testers we are pedantic to the nth degree!
There is nothing I hate more than incomplete documentation.. I practically had to tie Prem down to prevent him from writing a full blown requirements document and map development plan!!!

I still say we should have full functional spec and Product Requirements documentation!

I am all in favour of moving the boat bonus over to be below the mini map where I had it originally! ... see Prem I'm not the only one who thinks it should be there

Alright Alright! Move it back, but can we incorporate it more into the mini-map rather than being the awful "oops I forgot it" look that it had before. It was just kinda stuck out in the middle of no-where.

I'm sure I can switch the numbers around and Prem probably won't mind tweaking the xml to accomodate!

<--- I think that about covers my feelings on that.... (I suppose if I have to)

Although I suppose one idea would be to limit the boats to only attacking ports near them (attack route marked like the docks) to encourge the use of the bigger islands to make your way to the smaller ones rather than skipping across on a boat!

I like this idea! We'll talk about this more offline!

We tried a scroll with a lot more oppacity and it just looked wrong, I can always look at the color of the scroll again... SUGGESTIONS?, the other idea I have had for this is to replicate a stone tablet for the main Legend and make the text look Carved! hmm..I wonder, does anyone think this might be better? that scroll took me ages though.

I like the stone tablet idea! See what you can come up with!

I have a favor to ask: if it wouldn't be too much trouble, I'd like to see one of the maps (preferably the small) with the proposed starting neutrals laid on it. That'll make it easier, at least for me, to evaluate the gameplay.

I'll leave that to you Nem.


Some really good comments from people there. Thanks all and keep 'em coming, a lot of comments give us inspiration and help us see where we are going wrong.

Premier2k

[Incandenza]

I will look at generating a map with the armies , do you want it with the numbers as they will be at the start of a game or will the usual 88 version be ok?

Nem.

The former, I'd like to see the neutrals laid out as if it was the start of the game. And I'm not asking you to grind out xml or have the numbers perfectly centered... I'd be perfectly happy if you just slapped the numbers on their respective terits. I ask because ultimately I'm the bloke that'll be stamping the map for gameplay, and believe me, the easier you make my job, the better...

[NemesisChild]

lol

I ask because ultimately I'm the bloke that'll be stamping the map for gameplay, and believe me, the easier you make my job, the better...

I bow to your knowledge and your wish is my command!!
where do you want the cash sent??

map will follow ASAP!

Nem

[Premier2k]

We should have an army filled map (with starting neutrals) soon to put up for you. Watch this space!!

Premier2k

[Premier2k]

A requested by Incandenza

Sorry it's not the prettiest way of displaying it but my work load has just tripled over the last few days, but this gives you an idea of what the starting neutrals are.

Click image to enlarge.

Premier2k

[Premier2k]

As a quick update, there is currently a review of the scroll happening between Nemesischild and myself. We are looking to take out the scroll and replace with something else. Unfortunately (or fortunately which ever way you look at it) Nem has just changed jobs and is currently away on business and sorting out his new team. So updates will zero for this week and possibly the next. I will try and take up some of the slack but my work load has increased dramatically recently due to the aforementioned ship jumper leaving my place of work.

Premier2k

[TaCktiX]

It's been a while since I dropped in on this map, or any other for that matter. I give you one guess as to what that means in relation to certain News-releasing materials.

Graphics:
- They've come a long way since I last looked, I like the cleaner and sharper look to everything now.
- I know the scroll is under review, but if you end up keeping it in some context, its burn-away is too clean with the border of Lyonesse. Be jagged, divorcing the burn from the coastline (most of it toward the bottom, burning to the middle or so).
- The boats are a bit too cartoony. I think the deal-killer is the crosshatching on the sails. See what they look like without any crosshatch, or perhaps only have horizontal stripes (the former in my mind looks pretty good).
- The bridge at the top of Lyonesse, the Lemuria bridge, and the one connecting Lemuria to Thule are different from the other bridges on the map. Whilst the other ones have a sharp look to them, the transformation (I assume by the look of it) dropped the sharpness of the texture and the border lines of the bridge. Consider re-applying the texture after you've changed the orientation of the bridges, or rotating the canvas to make your rectangles (I assume they are originally) then switch it back. A warning about rotating, it makes your entire canvas bigger, so you'll have to cut it back down after doing all the rotations.
- All the docks lack clarity and sharpness compared to the rest of the map. Doing a rework of the basic element creating them, or just doing them one by one to increase the sharpness of the dock planks and edges should do the trick.

I think that that qualifies, so your map got

[NemesisChild]

cheers for you comments TaCktiX

Sorry I have been getting to updates a bit slowly but I have started a new job and have had to travel a bit.
I will get to it more when I can, things should settle down a bit in a week or two

Nem

[Incandenza]

Thanks for putting in the starting neutrals.... I've had the flu all week (goooooood times), so I'm a bit off my stride, but hopefully this weekend I'll have a chance to give this one a good looking-over.

[Blitzaholic]

the green bonus worth +4 looks fairly easy to hold compared to the rest of the map, should it be worth +3 or +2 maybe?

[NemesisChild]

Hey Blitz

It defintely a 4
It is 3 territs and all can be attacked & bombarded from varying locations
so there is no safe point

Nem

[pikkio]

it's a long time that i don't look at this topic and i want to say that i really like the big improvement of this map! very good work!

[Premier2k]

Hi all!

Been a while since we posted in here. Updates are a bit slow at the moment on the map. Nemesischild has started a new job, I am snowed under with work since he left. I shall endeavour to get some updates done and posted as soon as I can. Would be wrong to let this slip now! We've come so far.

Thanks all for your continued support.

Premier2k & Nemesischild

[Joodoo]

2.1.1 Player Starting Positions
All outer islands/territories are divided up amongst the starting players:

These would be broken down as such;

2 players = 26 each and 1 random neutral
3 players = 17 each and 2 random neutrals
4 players = 13 each and 1 random neutral
5 players = 10 each and 3 random neutrals
6 players = 8 each and 5 random neutrals
7 players = 7 each and 4 random neutrals
8 players = 6 each and 5 random neutrals

2 player games have one third of all territories neutral
and how many territories are there in total?

[NemesisChild]

2.1.1 Player Starting Positions
All outer islands/territories are divided up amongst the starting players:

These would be broken down as such;

2 players = 26 each and 1 random neutral
3 players = 17 each and 2 random neutrals
4 players = 13 each and 1 random neutral
5 players = 10 each and 3 random neutrals
6 players = 8 each and 5 random neutrals
7 players = 7 each and 4 random neutrals
8 players = 6 each and 5 random neutrals

2 player games have one third of all territories neutral
and how many territories are there in total?

There are 53 allocatable territories (the 5 outer islands only) on the map, and a further 36 that start nuetral making 89 in all.

[Incandenza]

Sorry for the delay in my comments... That being said, you guys have come up with a terrific map, and I think with just a bit of tweaking, the gameplay will be good to go. Most of my issues lay with the bonus values, as you'll see...

Regardless of what the spreadsheet says, Meropis shouldn't be a 4. I'm of the opinion that, exceptions aside, bonuses shouldn't be worth more than the number of terits required to hold it. It's still an attractive target at +3, since you already have to go through 2 terits to get to the port. The fact that this bonus keeps coming up should tell you something.

You could also say that the boat bonus is high at +6. I imagine that's to encourage people to take the boats, 'cause once you have one boat, all ports are available to you, so why take another? Why even have a bonus for the boats, since players will have to pass through one anyway to get to the innermost continent? It just seems to me that an inflated bonus is a poor reason to encourage people to take particular terits.

It also doesn't make sense that Lyonesse is a +4 and Mariny is a +5, they're basically the same bonus: 2 borders to defend, 2 adjacent continents, similarly linear layouts, and Lyonesse actually has one more terit. They should both be either +4 (my preference) or +5.

And while we're talking about bonuses, there's this: as oaktown suggested, the outer islands may become dead zones, as actually taking a bonus that size is no small undertaking. What if each island were split into two parts, each a subcontinent bonus of, say, +1 or +2, with an additional +1 or +2 for holding the whole island? It'll certainly speed the pace of the game out, and players will have to decide between taking plausible bonuses and heading inward toward the special terits.

And while we're talking about the special inner terits, I have one small concern and one larger suggestion. First the small: you have a very greek theme to the map, so it's a little off-putting that there's a somewhat generic Temple of Life with an ankh symbol. What about something... a bit, I dunno, Greeker? A Temple of Apollo, say, or Artemis, or even Ares.

The larger suggestion: part of me wants to suggest having some sort of victory condition be laid on one ore more temple terits, to further encourage inward movement (yes, much like oasis). Not for just the Temple of Poseidon, but maybe "Hold all 5 Temple territories for 1 round for victory", an alternate road to success. I'm not sure if this is something you guys would be open to, I'm not even sure it's necessarily a good idea, so I'm just kinda tossing it out there.

A small connectivity thing: with how linear the outer island are, you're done a good job keeping dead end terits to a minimum. However, there's the south end of Kamuri Kandam island, which I think could be reworked just a bit to keep KK1 from being a dead end. You've got a bit of space there to play with it.

As far as the legend: I don't mind a complex legend, tho I see oaktown's point about the various symbols (for instance, at first I assumed that ports could attack each other). Now, while I don't think that legends (and by extension, gameplay) should be so simplified that they pass the "no one's going to make a mistake at first glance" test, it might not be the worst idea in the world to have a third line there at the top that says something like "Ports and Boats cannot attack like territories".

So there ya go, some food for thought.

[NemesisChild]

Sorry for the delay in my comments... That being said, you guys have come up with a terrific map, and I think with just a bit of tweaking, the gameplay will be good to go. Most of my issues lay with the bonus values, as you'll see...

No problem on the delay
we have been really busy ourslves and are hoping to get back to this now
the bonuses have always been a big topic of discussion and have changed a few times, sometimes against our wishes

Regardless of what the spreadsheet says, Meropis shouldn't be a 4. I'm of the opinion that, exceptions aside, bonuses shouldn't be worth more than the number of terits required to hold it. It's still an attractive target at +3, since you already have to go through 2 terits to get to the port. The fact that this bonus keeps coming up should tell you something.

You could also say that the boat bonus is high at +6. I imagine that's to encourage people to take the boats, 'cause once you have one boat, all ports are available to you, so why take another? Why even have a bonus for the boats, since players will have to pass through one anyway to get to the innermost continent? It just seems to me that an inflated bonus is a poor reason to encourage people to take particular terits.

It also doesn't make sense that Lyonesse is a +4 and Mariny is a +5, they're basically the same bonus: 2 borders to defend, 2 adjacent continents, similarly linear layouts, and Lyonesse actually has one more terit. They should both be either +4 (my preference) or +5.

I aggree and the bonuses your suggesting sound alot like what we had originally
Prem is looking into this again and I will update the map when he gives me the adjusted values
The boat bonus was originally 4 but I like the idea of them not having a bonus

And while we're talking about bonuses, there's this: as oaktown suggested, the outer islands may become dead zones, as actually taking a bonus that size is no small undertaking. What if each island were split into two parts, each a subcontinent bonus of, say, +1 or +2, with an additional +1 or +2 for holding the whole island? It'll certainly speed the pace of the game out, and players will have to decide between taking plausible bonuses and heading inward toward the special terits.

I really don't want to split up the islands any more as I think it will further complicate the gameplay

And while we're talking about the special inner terits, I have one small concern and one larger suggestion. First the small: you have a very greek theme to the map, so it's a little off-putting that there's a somewhat generic Temple of Life with an ankh symbol. What about something... a bit, I dunno, Greeker? A Temple of Apollo, say, or Artemis, or even Ares.

there is a considerabkle greek theme to the map yes, but the icons for most of the other greek Gods are quite complex and don't look so good when they are shrunk down to fit on the map, I wanted to keep it as clean as I could using the siomple icons, I will of course have another look at this .

The larger suggestion: part of me wants to suggest having some sort of victory condition be laid on one ore more temple terits, to further encourage inward movement (yes, much like oasis). Not for just the Temple of Poseidon, but maybe "Hold all 5 Temple territories for 1 round for victory", an alternate road to success. I'm not sure if this is something you guys would be open to, I'm not even sure it's necessarily a good idea, so I'm just kinda tossing it out there.

I would love to have a victory condition but am not a fan of the way this is currently handled in CC, I would rather have the ability to have a multiple turn hold as I find holding territs for one turn only to win ends a game way to suddenly, this is a personal prefernece thing and will not include it in this map at this time

A small connectivity thing: with how linear the outer island are, you're done a good job keeping dead end terits to a minimum. However, there's the south end of Kamuri Kandam island, which I think could be reworked just a bit to keep KK1 from being a dead end. You've got a bit of space there to play with it.

I will look into it to see how I can remove the dead end there

As far as the legend: I don't mind a complex legend, tho I see oaktown's point about the various symbols (for instance, at first I assumed that ports could attack each other). Now, while I don't think that legends (and by extension, gameplay) should be so simplified that they pass the "no one's going to make a mistake at first glance" test, it might not be the worst idea in the world to have a third line there at the top that says something like "Ports and Boats cannot attack like territories".

A reasonable solution for a possible problem I will add thsi when i get to the update

So there ya go, some food for thought.

Thank Incandenza, watch this space.. I hope to get wholly back into updates andpushing forward on this map from now

Nem

[sailorseal]

I see so many different textures but I think you need to find a uniform one for the other islands. My favorite is the texture on the top left K.K. bonus. I think maybe make the entire center start neutral so players have to work their way in, to maybe an objective? Sort of like AOR. Thee neutrals would increase in size as we get towards the center and maybe the objective is to hold the center circle?
I love the idea of this map!

[Premier2k]

I see so many different textures but I think you need to find a uniform one for the other islands.

The textures are not changing, they have changed many many times and are staying as they are now.

I think maybe make the entire center start neutral so players have to work their way in, to maybe an objective? Sort of like AOR. Thee neutrals would increase in size as we get towards the center and maybe the objective is to hold the center circle?

and I think you need to read the first post......and the previous posts......

I love the idea of this map!

Thank you, so do we!!

Premier2k

[Incandenza]

And while we're talking about the special inner terits, I have one small concern and one larger suggestion. First the small: you have a very greek theme to the map, so it's a little off-putting that there's a somewhat generic Temple of Life with an ankh symbol. What about something... a bit, I dunno, Greeker? A Temple of Apollo, say, or Artemis, or even Ares.

there is a considerabkle greek theme to the map yes, but the icons for most of the other greek Gods are quite complex and don't look so good when they are shrunk down to fit on the map, I wanted to keep it as clean as I could using the siomple icons, I will of course have another look at this .

How about a crescent moon for a Temple of Artemis?

[Premier2k]

NEW VERSION!! (Sorry for delay)

Version 22

Click image to enlarge.

Changes made

1. Bonuses have been modified
2. Temple icons altered
3. The scroll has been burnt away a little more so it doesn't appear to 'round' the scroll
4. Added a Crescent moon/Bow and arrow/Letter A icon for Goddess Artemis
5. Added new Line suggested by Incandenza to Legend

What does everyone think?

Premier2k

[Incandenza]

Lookin' good, guys...

Two quick things: Vineta could probably be bumped down to a +4, as it's basically the exact same bonus as Mu, and "assault" in that new line in the legend is misspelled...

[mibi]

looking pretty good. I think you can do better on that water texture thought. It's too noisy.