Das Schloß [QUENCHED #2]

[00iCon]

Forgive me for not reading the entirety of this discussion as it's incredibly lengthy. I'm sure that you all have made some great additions. I'd just like to note that in the Championship Series tournament of Das Schloß, which is a 1v1 sequential chained tourney, this player who starts has won 28 of 36 times (78%) and once experienced players play experienced players the numbers are even more skewed. First player to play has won 11 of 12 matches in the second round (92%).

AHA! i think i see where the problem with that is. The bonuses given are fine, but the first player with AA gets to break the opponent's bonuses to soon.
I propose putting AA in or near Das Schloss(i.e. the castle). that will allow for the decision to head for AA or take the bonus regions near the start. In fact, there are two paths to take when heading for Das Schloss, which will mean greater decision-making invloved.

[Crowley]

Cairns, this is still one of my favourite maps!
After a bunch of different games on it, here are some thoughts:

Is it just me or can one never actually get a +13 bonus on Das SchloB? Wache Tomas should be part of the bonus.

I think Das Dorf needs more bonus chances. Maybe +1 for 3, +2 for 5 and +4 for 8 would work? Markt and Holz-Schupen should also be reduced to 2 neutrals to make the fight for the bottom right a little fiercer.
Holding Kom Wilhelm should also possibly have a +3 bonus.
These types of changes will make the bottom right a more active area. Now it seems to be just a bridge to the action...

Landeplatz being killer neutrals is fine, but maybe make them 6 to get more action on them. The heli's need to be reduced by half at least.
If you do not want to reduce the helis, make the heli pads normal neutrals. The helis are just not a target at the moment.

The AA, as said by others, needs to be a killer neutral, it can stay 9, or go down to minimum 5.


One irritation for me and a few others in games I've played is the attack route between UC2 and DC2. You'll have a nice stack to go up one way to the castle and then accidentally attack the down car.
Please take this out. It serves no purpose other than to frustrate, and we need as little frustration as, possible on this already complex map.


Anyway, those are my 2 cents.
Keep up the good work!

[cairnswk]

Current V44.

Click image to enlarge.

Click image to enlarge.

http://h1.ripway.com/cairnswk/das_schloss_250410.xml

Cairns, this is still one of my favourite maps!
After a bunch of different games on it, here are some thoughts:

Is it just me or can one never actually get a +13 bonus on Das SchloB? Wache Tomas should be part of the bonus.

Thank Crowley.... As of this V44 above....Wache Thomas is now included in Das Schloß bonus...checked

I think Das Dorf needs more bonus chances. Maybe +1 for 3, +2 for 5 and +4 for 8 would work? Markt and Holz-Schupen should also be reduced to 2 neutrals to make the fight for the bottom right a little fiercer.
Holding Kom Wilhelm should also possibly have a +3 bonus.
These types of changes will make the bottom right a more active area. Now it seems to be just a bridge to the action...

Landeplatz being killer neutrals is fine, but maybe make them 6 to get more action on them. The heli's need to be reduced by half at least.
If you do not want to reduce the helis, make the heli pads normal neutrals. The helis are just not a target at the moment.

I
No changes to this at present....I'd like to hear from others about these changes. <- Muster your support!

The AA, as said by others, needs to be a killer neutral, it can stay 9, or go down to minimum 5.

Now at 5 killer neutral

One irritation for me and a few others in games I've played is the attack route between UC2 and DC2. You'll have a nice stack to go up one way to the castle and then accidentally attack the down car.
Please take this out. It serves no purpose other than to frustrate, and we need as little frustration as, possible on this already complex map.

Mmmm. Frustration was part of this original story, it wove in and out of almost everything that a plot was able to.
I'd like to keep this as it a major feature of the story.

Anyway, those are my 2 cents.
Keep up the good work!

[Crowley]

I think Das Dorf needs more bonus chances. Maybe +1 for 3, +2 for 5 and +4 for 8 would work? Markt and Holz-Schupen should also be reduced to 2 neutrals to make the fight for the bottom right a little fiercer.
Holding Kom Wilhelm should also possibly have a +3 bonus.
These types of changes will make the bottom right a more active area. Now it seems to be just a bridge to the action...

I
No changes to this at present....I'd like to hear from others about these changes. <- Muster your support!

You really need to get more action on DD and DS. For now not much really happens there, (in my play of the map) until someone is ready to push for the objective, or people are opening up routes for reinforcements.
Now, DD seems to be just merely on the way to the AA, although this might change with AA being a reset. The DD terrs need to be more accessible, so dropping all the DD neutrals to 2 or 1 may do the trick. Making the Sdt. terrs part of this bonus could also work...

Komm Wilhelm really needs to also have an auto deploy or bonus to make it a juicier target.


The route between UC and DC irritation is not really such a big deal. You only make the mistake once

[natty dread]

Sorry if this has been mentioned, but the large version says "A finctional story from WWII"...

[cairnswk]

Sorry if this has been mentioned, but the large version says "A finctional story from WWII"...

Oh dear...so it does
I'll fix shortly, thanks natty

[AAFitz]

Ok, so is the only change making the AA reset to 5 AND removing the bonus for the chutte area, because this once again completely brings it back to a completely unbalance map, which has been explained many times. Now the only place to deploy is really in the castle, because its the only meaningful bonus. AA now becomes a pointless territory for the most part.

The problem with the map was that it was unbalanced. The chute area was too strong because of the +1 bonus AND the AA...but now its absolutely irrelevant, simply shifting all fighting to the Castle.

I wont waste any more time explaining how to balance it again, only to be ignored repeatedly however. Its fairly clear the goal isnt to make this a balanced map anyways I guess. I do hope a sufficient warning will be given before changing AA to neutral which will ruin the vast majority of games where someone has parked everything on AA though...

Last minute suggestions to actually balance it.

Do not reset AA, thereby making it a pointless territory. It would never be worth breaking it if it was reset to 5. The bonus is barely worth breaking at 9, and if it resets, its completely not worth it, so its effectively an inert space. If you keep the bonus for the chute area, it then becomes a viable option, but doing both makes the entire AA pointless. Killing 5 every time to reduce an auto bonus of 8 is just pointless, when the castle gives a bonus much higher. You might as well delete AA off the board at that point.

Remove bonus for chutte area, but keep auto deploys.
Raise bonus in upper right to give one more area that makes it possible to conquer

Before the +1 bonus was added to the chute area, it worked great, you could win from AA, or the castle, though the castle was better. What was needed was another bonus to win from, and that would be best in upper right. that gives 3 spots to win from, and means you can effectively deploy anywhere, because they all give access to those spots for the most part.

Enacting the current one means only DS will matter for the game. All will be deployed there or fought there, and best dice wins. It will be a shame to see.

[nikola_milicki]

what Fitz said!

[AAFitz]

what Fitz said!

lmao...I did pm a few that I know play the map a lot, looking for some input...but this wasnt exactly what I was looking for.
I genuinely was looking for some other ideas, but I do expect those that play it a lot, especially 1v1 to not agree with the current plan. The board just needs a little balance, and big changes disrupt that balance.

It was close to balanced before...just a few baby steps may balance it... changing too much just unbalances it too much the other way.

[fumandomuerte]

what if AA has a 2 or 3 troops decay each round to compensate the parachutes bonus?

[cairnswk]

Current V44.

Click image to enlarge.

...
Remove bonus for chutte area, but keep auto deploys.
Raise bonus in upper right to give one more area that makes it possible to conquer...

After you're last response, did you care to check the previous page (with the above maps) to see that those things have happened.

what Fitz said!

Disapointed in that one too !

what if AA has a 2 or 3 troops decay each round to compensate the parachutes bonus?

Mmmm, we'll see. this one will be in beta for a long time.

I think Das Dorf needs more bonus chances. Maybe +1 for 3, +2 for 5 and +4 for 8 would work? Markt and Holz-Schupen should also be reduced to 2 neutrals to make the fight for the bottom right a little fiercer.
Holding Kom Wilhelm should also possibly have a +3 bonus.
These types of changes will make the bottom right a more active area. Now it seems to be just a bridge to the action...

I
No changes to this at present....I'd like to hear from others about these changes. <- Muster your support!

You really need to get more action on DD and DS. For now not much really happens there, (in my play of the map) until someone is ready to push for the objective, or people are opening up routes for reinforcements.
Now, DD seems to be just merely on the way to the AA, although this might change with AA being a reset. The DD terrs need to be more accessible, so dropping all the DD neutrals to 2 or 1 may do the trick. Making the Sdt. terrs part of this bonus could also work...

Komm Wilhelm really needs to also have an auto deploy or bonus to make it a juicier target.

The route between UC and DC irritation is not really such a big deal. You only make the mistake once

Crowley, thanks for the suggestions, but a little late i'm afraid, unless you have major support for them.
Tbh, i think most of the current 100 games in progress are very slowwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwww.

[00iCon]

what if AA has a 2 or 3 troops decay each round to compensate the parachutes bonus?

That's an excellent idea!
or you could justmake AA less accessible. i.e. put it in the airport

[oaktown]

I have nothing to add to this conversation - just wanted to say how pleased I am to see this map back in play.

[AAFitz]

Current V44.

Click image to enlarge.

...
Remove bonus for chutte area, but keep auto deploys.
Raise bonus in upper right to give one more area that makes it possible to conquer...

After you're last response, did you care to check the previous page (with the above maps) to see that those things have happened.

Yes, and I posted after reading your suggestions. I was simply summarizing all of my suggestions from the top. Its great that the bonus is removed, because that balanced the board much more, however, by resetting AA as well, it completely unbalanced the board. Now, if the bonus in upper right rivals the castle, thats awesome, if they are as about equal as possible. The math on that is complicated considering the variables, so Ill take your word for it it there if you think either one is comprarable. However, resetting AA at that point is no longer necessary, because now Taking AA is risky as all hell, and only protects one of three possible bonusess, and taking it if it resets is completely a waste of time, because removing even 8 spots cant possibly justify taking 5 every time to do so.

My reccomendation is just try the map without resetting AA, removing the chute bonus, and with the increased right bonus. I am nearly positive this will allow for the best play, further, it doesnt disrupt the games that most people have going with massive stacks on AA. After that try is initiated, I suspect no one will want AA reset, for it just wont make sense. I expect one of the bonuses to still be better, but only by a marginal bit, meaning you cant be 100% sure where someone will go for, which means balance, not to say perfect balance has been restored, and if I can drop on a chutte, das shlob, or upper right, you have made a map of pure perfection. It may need slight adjustment after that, but have no doubt it may very well be the best 1v1 map on CC, which may not translate into the quickest, or best for multiplayer, but will mean pure fun overall, and certainly the most unique gameplay of all CC.

[cairnswk]

....
Yes, and I posted after reading your suggestions. I was simply summarizing all of my suggestions from the top. Its great that the bonus is removed, because that balanced the board much more, however, by resetting AA as well, it completely unbalanced the board. Now, if the bonus in upper right rivals the castle, thats awesome, if they are as about equal as possible. The math on that is complicated considering the variables, so Ill take your word for it it there if you think either one is comprarable. However, resetting AA at that point is no longer necessary, because now Taking AA is risky as all hell, and only protects one of three possible bonusess, and taking it if it resets is completely a waste of time, because removing even 8 spots cant possibly justify taking 5 every time to do so.

My reccomendation is just try the map without resetting AA, removing the chute bonus, and with the increased right bonus. I am nearly positive this will allow for the best play, further, it doesnt disrupt the games that most people have going with massive stacks on AA. After that try is initiated, I suspect no one will want AA reset, for it just wont make sense. I expect one of the bonuses to still be better, but only by a marginal bit, meaning you cant be 100% sure where someone will go for, which means balance, not to say perfect balance has been restored, and if I can drop on a chutte, das shlob, or upper right, you have made a map of pure perfection. It may need slight adjustment after that, but have no doubt it may very well be the best 1v1 map on CC, which may not translate into the quickest, or best for multiplayer, but will mean pure fun overall, and certainly the most unique gameplay of all CC.

Well, some others suggested AA as killer neutral=5, so let's see how thats goes.
You've got your upper right bonus, and removal of extra para bonus
but there is also extra bonus for Ds and Fs and Das Dorf, so i suspect AA at killer 5 will be necessary.
Let's see how it plays. when it gets put up.

[tonbomorphew]

OK if ur going to use german don't call the map the "the castle"
and the "Hubschraubers" don't look like Helicopters heres the transtation:Das Schloss | Soldatenschlafzimmer | Lagerrau | munitionsram |
platz | Kontor Turm | Hubschrauber | Rollbahn | Landeplatz | wache aus | escape Flugzeuge | Militärlager | | Markt | Das Schloß

means:The Castle | soldiers Bedroom | Lagerrau | munitionsram |
space | office tower | Helicopter | runway | Landing | guard | off | escape aircraft | Military Camp | Market | The Castle.

[cairnswk]

OK if ur going to use german don't call the map the "the castle"
and the "Hubschraubers" don't look like Helicopters heres the transtation:Das Schloss | Soldatenschlafzimmer | Lagerrau | munitionsram |
platz | Kontor Turm | Hubschrauber | Rollbahn | Landeplatz | wache aus | escape Flugzeuge | Militärlager | | Markt | Das Schloß

means:The Castle | soldiers Bedroom | Lagerrau | munitionsram |
space | office tower | Helicopter | runway | Landing | guard | off | escape aircraft | Military Camp | Market | The Castle.

LOL. you're too late, we've alrady been through all that.

[Crowley]

All Std. territories need to be part of Das Dorf bonus. Seriously man, we need more play on the bottom right. This is a small change.

The rest looks good.

The AA reset will be interesting, we'll have to see how it plays.
I can understand Fritz's objections, but at the moment AA is just a warehouse where people stockpile and kill off the other's bonus until they are ready to go for gold. The reset wil add a whole new dimension.

[tonbomorphew]

hubscaubers look like tank not helicopters!
lol cari

[MrBenn]

Apologies for not following all of the discussion...

These are the files I have forwarded to lackattack:

Current V44.
Small: http://i155.photobucket.com/albums/s282 ... s_V44S.jpg
Large: http://i155.photobucket.com/albums/s282 ... s_V44L.jpg
XML: http://h1.ripway.com/cairnswk/das_schloss_250410.xml

[lildanbassman]

I'm in game 6746885, and I have all of the Das Schloss block conquered, yet I'm only getting the +7 bonus instead of the +13. I saw a couple pages back where it said this had been fixed. Is that something that will only take effect for new games started or should this also take effect in my current games as well?

[cairnswk]

I'm in game 6746885, and I have all of the Das Schloss block conquered, yet I'm only getting the +7 bonus instead of the +13. I saw a couple pages back where it said this had been fixed. Is that something that will only take effect for new games started or should this also take effect in my current games as well?

I don't beleive lackattack has uploaded the modifications yet.

[** *]

Big Changes on this map today

would have been nice to add a fortification round or warning when changing the map so drastically, it altered to outcome of some games

also, not sure why but in some cases parachutes were lost eg game 7077958, I looked in the logs no one bombarded it, is there a new way to lose parachutes?

[ViperOverLord]

I'm not happy at all about the bonus restructure. I liked the large flux with a lot of action. All of the sudden you've turned this map into a waiting game. I don't know what prompted this change, but really sucky. It went from my preferred map (I had put it as my home map for my tournament) to a map I doubt I'll play much anymore.

[angola]

AA resets now?

That is ridiculous.

This map might as well be the Hive, because games will go on forever on it.