Moderator: Community Team
Pack Rat wrote:if it quacks like a duck and walk like a duck, it's still fascism
viewtopic.php?f=8&t=241668&start=200#p5349880
mrswdk wrote:This suggestion isn't for a private chat option, it's for private chat as standard when playing private games. You'd know that if you read the thread before spewing all over it.
IcePack wrote:mrswdk wrote:This suggestion isn't for a private chat option, it's for private chat as standard when playing private games. You'd know that if you read the thread before spewing all over it.
Interesting, I thought this was being proposed as an option which is why I stated in my previous post about the site having to many options etc.
However, if this is proposing the private chat for private games exclusively, that creates a problem.
Clan / Tournament games are all considered "private" and require passwords to join so that others can't just join games that are part of other people's clan wars or tournaments.
This chat MUST be availible for "public inspection" by the clan team (I don't know about tournaments) because of the way our sitting rules are enforced / carried out. So this being the standard / non option for "private games" isn't an option, as it unintentionally affects the way clan / maybe tournament sections operate.
mrwdk wrote:Private game chats would give people the same freedom when playing games, enabling them to enjoy all aspects of this site without having the watchful eye of Satan hanging over them all the time
IcePack wrote:
This chat MUST be availible for "public inspection" by the clan team (I don't know about tournaments) because of the way our sitting rules are enforced / carried out. So this being the standard / non option for "private games" isn't an option, as it unintentionally affects the way clan / maybe tournament sections operate.
concrete wrote:IcePack wrote:
This chat MUST be availible for "public inspection" by the clan team (I don't know about tournaments) because of the way our sitting rules are enforced / carried out. So this being the standard / non option for "private games" isn't an option, as it unintentionally affects the way clan / maybe tournament sections operate.
So the chat has to be available because everyone must be able to see when someone announces they are sitting for a player who is in that game?
Dukasaur wrote:If people want to talk privately, they already have countless options -- email, Messgenger, Skype, etc., etc., etc., etc.
Game chat is here specifically to enhance the game itself -- in-game diplomacy, arranging rematches, announcing sitters, commenting on the gameplay of others, etc. -- and these uses need to be publicly visible to prevent abuse.
Dukasaur wrote:saxitoxin wrote:taking medical advice from this creature; a morbidly obese man who is 100% convinced he willed himself into becoming a woman.
Your obsession with mrswdk is really sad.
ConfederateSS wrote:Just because people are idiots... Doesn't make them wrong.
DirtyDishSoap wrote:Like Done has said, I don't understand the reasoning of why we couldn't have it.
Argument 1 - It promotes cheating. How so? "I'm in a secret alliance with such and such thus making it no longer secret but a secret secret." ????? Chat's usually the last thing to look at for cheating.
Rule #2: No secret diplomacy
Any form of diplomatic discussion between opponents must only be posted in the game chat in English or in a language that all opponents understand. No other methods of communication may be used to hold diplomatic discussions between opponents including, but not limited to, the forum, the wall, Live Chat, or the inbox.
DirtyDishSoap wrote:No one is making the argument that the chat is strictly private. Just to the general public. Moderaters have access to it as they already have access to have everything else
DirtyDishSoap wrote: If anything goes awry or there is a blatant issue, it's usually the players in that said game that bring up the issues, not someone from the outside.
.DirtyDishSoap wrote:Argument 2 - Coding it would be hard. I'm not getting this argument at all. We have a team chat, follow the same coding for it so no one else can see it. I'm by no means an expert in web design but I've taken a few classes in the field and it honestly wouldn't be hard to implement.
Dukasaur wrote:.DirtyDishSoap wrote:Argument 2 - Coding it would be hard. I'm not getting this argument at all. We have a team chat, follow the same coding for it so no one else can see it. I'm by no means an expert in web design but I've taken a few classes in the field and it honestly wouldn't be hard to implement.
I'm not a programmer. I honestly can't address how easy or how difficult it would be. I can only say this: Previously, programmers have been added to to team, full of piss and vinegar, thinking "it's just a browser game, how hard can it be?" and they found out otherwise. Most notoriously, in the summer of 2013, El_Jefe hired a couple of career professional programmers to revamp the site. They spent the whole summer trying to figure out the code, and in the fall they admitted that they were completely bewildered and didn't have a clue on how the site actually runs. Before that, on two different occasions the previous owner, lackattack, hired offshore programmers who pissed around for months before finally admitting that the game is a lot more complex than they realized and that they couldn't make heads or tails of the code. So, you'll forgive those of us who have been around a while if we're skeptical when someone walks in and says, "this is super-easy, I could do this with my hands behind my back." Again, I'm not a programmer and I've never been involved in the code, so I'm not making any positive assertions about whether this is easy or hard, only suspecting that it might be harder than you realize.
Dukasaur wrote:Actually, for a case of secret diplomacy, chat is by far the most important thing. Quoting the rules...
The very first thing you check was whether a diplomatic proposal was properly made in chat. So yeah, it's extremely important that it be openly visible.
Again, this is an in game thing where people report, and even then, game logs will clearly show who's been siding with who. Chat is from what I have experienced, the least tangible evidence in that regard. Rules can state whatever, but a secret diplomacy will not be stated in chat. That's the argument.
Very common misconception. Most mods do not have access to anything that isn't publicly visible. Some classes of mods, like the multi-hunters and the globals, have powers to see some private areas, but not all. The admins and the globals can see into private forums, but even they cannot see into everything. Not even the admins can see into your inbox unless you report a post. Not even the admins can see your troops in a foggy game until it's over. Most people really overestimate the powers of the mods.
I call bullshit but then again I'm thinking of the dreaded 08-10 era. I'll be less skeptical and say sure, multihunters and globals can see private chat. Makes perfect sense because one is actually looking for cheating and the other is more like a head honcho. Doesn't make much sense to give it to a guy who's a, say, map foundry mod or whatever. So...Where's the issue exactly? They can see the chat.![]()
There are quite a few amateur sleuths on the site that help catch cheaters. Often they do the hard work of building a case and present it to the C&A team already neatly wrapped up. Without the contributions of these people, a lot of cheating would go undetected. Just as you overestimate the powers of the mods, you also overestimate the activity levels of the mods. Really, without the contributions of ordinary members building cases against cheaters, offenders would get away with a lot more crap than they do.
Then hire them to be multi hunters and give them the job. If they have the incentive to look for cheaters, more power to them. Least they would be active. The argument that "We need people to police each other constantly" is lame. If the multi hunters activity is low, then why A. Have them? or B. Give it to the people who actually want a cheat free site? As a side note, I never estimated the activity of mod level, I simply said the player base reports it, normally in game. I'm sure if we drew out a graph it would far exceed the amount of times an outside player caught it than inside.
I'm not a programmer. I honestly can't address how easy or how difficult it would be. I can only say this: Previously, programmers have been added to to team, full of piss and vinegar, thinking "it's just a browser game, how hard can it be?" and they found out otherwise. Most notoriously, in the summer of 2013, El_Jefe hired a couple of career professional programmers to revamp the site. They spent the whole summer trying to figure out the code, and in the fall they admitted that they were completely bewildered and didn't have a clue on how the site actually runs. Before that, on two different occasions the previous owner, lackattack, hired offshore programmers who pissed around for months before finally admitting that the game is a lot more complex than they realized and that they couldn't make heads or tails of the code. So, you'll forgive those of us who have been around a while if we're skeptical when someone walks in and says, "this is super-easy, I could do this with my hands behind my back." Again, I'm not a programmer and I've never been involved in the code, so I'm not making any positive assertions about whether this is easy or hard, only suspecting that it might be harder than you realize.
What Niet said.
Dukasaur wrote:saxitoxin wrote:taking medical advice from this creature; a morbidly obese man who is 100% convinced he willed himself into becoming a woman.
Your obsession with mrswdk is really sad.
ConfederateSS wrote:Just because people are idiots... Doesn't make them wrong.
2dimes wrote:Have a lot of cheaters been inviting victims to private games?
Dukasaur wrote:
@nietz. I'm not going to go to deep here. Like I said, I'm not qualified to judge how easy or difficult it is. All I can offer is the empirical evidence of the historical record: outside programmers were hired, they were all gung-ho and full of piss and vinegar and "oh yeah, this is no problemo!" and six month later they were admitting the code was too complex and they didn't have Clue #1 about where to start modifying it. Maybe they were just shitty programmers. I can't say. All I can say is that it makes me cautious about the claims of others who predict a smooth ride to Berlin and our troops will be home by Christmas.
Dukasaur wrote:2dimes wrote:Have a lot of cheaters been inviting victims to private games?
I don't know if it's a lot, but it's certainly some. What is particularly of concern here, is farmers like GLG and a few others, who invited people into their farming games under the guise of "teaching them the map" after which they would simply crush them and not teach them much of anything. I can see, if private chat was enabled, this method of farming could make a comeback. Some GLG-like prick comes along, says he's "teaching" people, invites them into private games and farms them. When a complaint is made, he waxes eloquent about how much good he is doing for the community, etc., etc. When we try to say, "but you're not actually teaching them anything" he says, "it's hidden in the private chat. Sorry you can't see it. Sux 2BU, na na na na na!".
Dukasaur wrote:saxitoxin wrote:taking medical advice from this creature; a morbidly obese man who is 100% convinced he willed himself into becoming a woman.
Your obsession with mrswdk is really sad.
ConfederateSS wrote:Just because people are idiots... Doesn't make them wrong.
Dukasaur wrote:2dimes wrote:Have a lot of cheaters been inviting victims to private games?
I don't know if it's a lot, but it's certainly some. What is particularly of concern here, is farmers like GLG and a few others, who invited people into their farming games under the guise of "teaching them the map" after which they would simply crush them and not teach them much of anything. I can see, if private chat was enabled, this method of farming could make a comeback. Some GLG-like prick comes along, says he's "teaching" people, invites them into private games and farms them. When a complaint is made, he waxes eloquent about how much good he is doing for the community, etc., etc. When we try to say, "but you're not actually teaching them anything" he says, "it's hidden in the private chat. Sorry you can't see it. Sux 2BU, na na na na na!".
DirtyDishSoap wrote:Dukasaur wrote:2dimes wrote:Have a lot of cheaters been inviting victims to private games?
I don't know if it's a lot, but it's certainly some. What is particularly of concern here, is farmers like GLG and a few others, who invited people into their farming games under the guise of "teaching them the map" after which they would simply crush them and not teach them much of anything. I can see, if private chat was enabled, this method of farming could make a comeback. Some GLG-like prick comes along, says he's "teaching" people, invites them into private games and farms them. When a complaint is made, he waxes eloquent about how much good he is doing for the community, etc., etc. When we try to say, "but you're not actually teaching them anything" he says, "it's hidden in the private chat. Sorry you can't see it. Sux 2BU, na na na na na!".
So we're going to assume the other player that is getting farmed is a complete idiot, can't take a screen shot and post it in the cheating and abuse threads?
DirtyDishSoap wrote:Dukasaur wrote:2dimes wrote:Have a lot of cheaters been inviting victims to private games?
I don't know if it's a lot, but it's certainly some. What is particularly of concern here, is farmers like GLG and a few others, who invited people into their farming games under the guise of "teaching them the map" after which they would simply crush them and not teach them much of anything. I can see, if private chat was enabled, this method of farming could make a comeback. Some GLG-like prick comes along, says he's "teaching" people, invites them into private games and farms them. When a complaint is made, he waxes eloquent about how much good he is doing for the community, etc., etc. When we try to say, "but you're not actually teaching them anything" he says, "it's hidden in the private chat. Sorry you can't see it. Sux 2BU, na na na na na!".
So we're going to assume the other player that is getting farmed is a complete idiot, can't take a screen shot and post it in the cheating and abuse threads?
Dukasaur wrote:2dimes wrote:Have a lot of cheaters been inviting victims to private games?
I don't know if it's a lot, but it's certainly some. What is particularly of concern here, is farmers like GLG and a few others, who invited people into their farming games under the guise of "teaching them the map" after which they would simply crush them and not teach them much of anything. I can see, if private chat was enabled, this method of farming could make a comeback. Some GLG-like prick comes along, says he's "teaching" people, invites them into private games and farms them. When a complaint is made, he waxes eloquent about how much good he is doing for the community, etc., etc. When we try to say, "but you're not actually teaching them anything" he says, "it's hidden in the private chat. Sorry you can't see it. Sux 2BU, na na na na na!".
mrswdk wrote:I'm pretty sure I played against GenLee.Gettinhead and went back to check my game(s) with him to see what 'teaching' he may or may not have done, but it would appear every last trace of him has been expunged from the site. Shame, now we will never again know what he did or didn't do. Oh well!
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