Private games have private messages

[mrswdk]

This suggestion isn't for a private chat option, it's for private chat as standard when playing private games. You'd know that if you read the thread before spewing all over it.

[saxitoxin]

The current arguments against this aren't cogent as this system already exists in team games.

If you play doubles and you chat with your teammate there is no publicly-facing record of that chat. Ergo, we already have a system whereby chat is not open to public inspection.

In fact, I currently use team games as a secure way to trade credit card numbers, Yahoo password files, coordinates for dead drops, etc. So the system already exists. Roll it out across the board.

[IcePack]

This suggestion isn't for a private chat option, it's for private chat as standard when playing private games. You'd know that if you read the thread before spewing all over it.

Interesting, I thought this was being proposed as an option which is why I stated in my previous post about the site having to many options etc.

However, if this is proposing the private chat for private games exclusively, that creates a problem.
Clan / Tournament games are all considered "private" and require passwords to join so that others can't just join games that are part of other people's clan wars or tournaments.

This chat MUST be availible for "public inspection" by the clan team (I don't know about tournaments) because of the way our sitting rules are enforced / carried out. So this being the standard / non option for "private games" isn't an option, as it unintentionally affects the way clan / maybe tournament sections operate.

[mrswdk]

Oh really? Could do:

- public chats on the clan war/tourney games that need inspecting
- mods can read private messages
Or
- we go with the idea of making it a toggle option. As others have noted it's a toggle option for doubles/triples etc games and that seems to work fine

[owenshooter]

This suggestion isn't for a private chat option, it's for private chat as standard when playing private games. You'd know that if you read the thread before spewing all over it.

Interesting, I thought this was being proposed as an option which is why I stated in my previous post about the site having to many options etc.

However, if this is proposing the private chat for private games exclusively, that creates a problem.
Clan / Tournament games are all considered "private" and require passwords to join so that others can't just join games that are part of other people's clan wars or tournaments.

This chat MUST be availible for "public inspection" by the clan team (I don't know about tournaments) because of the way our sitting rules are enforced / carried out. So this being the standard / non option for "private games" isn't an option, as it unintentionally affects the way clan / maybe tournament sections operate.

sady, we know the reason behind this persons real reasons, clans were not a blip on the original suggestion and as evidenced by the original post not being updated, still truly is not. the issues that arise with this selfish suggestion, as you outlined, far outweigh any, IF ANY, benefits from this coding heading endeavor. as you have stated and others have stated, the chat MUST be available for multiple reasons. fully hidden chat would also create issues with cheating, collusion, etc... this seems a far way to go so some may use bawdy and insensitive talk within their chat.

this idea is dead. the original idea was horrible and *MOD EDIT*. there is literally no reason for this idea to move forward... i mean, did anyone even really look at this?

Private game chats would give people the same freedom when playing games, enabling them to enjoy all aspects of this site without having the watchful eye of Satan hanging over them all the time

what in the hell does that even mean? i'm sorry, but this idea is just not worth the coding time.-Bj

[concrete]

This chat MUST be availible for "public inspection" by the clan team (I don't know about tournaments) because of the way our sitting rules are enforced / carried out. So this being the standard / non option for "private games" isn't an option, as it unintentionally affects the way clan / maybe tournament sections operate.

So the chat has to be available because everyone must be able to see when someone announces they are sitting for a player who is in that game?

[Razorvich]

This chat MUST be availible for "public inspection" by the clan team (I don't know about tournaments) because of the way our sitting rules are enforced / carried out. So this being the standard / non option for "private games" isn't an option, as it unintentionally affects the way clan / maybe tournament sections operate.

So the chat has to be available because everyone must be able to see when someone announces they are sitting for a player who is in that game?

Bit more than that, there are always disputes that will attract public attention, and the clan games, and tourney games involve medals, so the whole process needs to be accessible to be scrutinized by anyone.

All the games that need to be public will have a Game label of some sort, so games with a label can possibly be excluded.
Games with a password, without a label have the option for private chat.

[Dukasaur]

If people want to talk privately, they already have countless options -- email, Messgenger, Skype, etc., etc., etc., etc.

Game chat is here specifically to enhance the game itself -- in-game diplomacy, arranging rematches, announcing sitters, commenting on the gameplay of others, etc. -- and these uses need to be publicly visible to prevent abuse.

[concrete]

Alright, I get that.......I do wish there was an option to have the private chat in a clan training game for training....I do understand why they don't have it, still would be nice to have it in that capacity

[Donelladan]

Cool that you get it concrete, I don't.
I don't think private message are important and I seriously doubt they will be implemented, but Duk's argument make no sense to me.
Announcing sitter ? As far as I know it is only compulsory to announce sitting in clan war games, otherwise it's a courtesy to announce it but not compulsory. Therefore doesn't matter for private game. ( as long as clan war games aren't concerned, but only private game, i know clan war games are also private games but I am making a distinction here between tournament games, clan war games, and "basic" private games").
In game diplomacy ? Only in game players are actually concerned, how private message ( readable by all player in the private game ofc! ) would be a problem.
Commenting on the game play ? Arranging rematch ? I never heard about any abuse in this case and I don't see why people outside the game need to see that anyway.

What abuse are you talking about Dukasaur that we could prevent by seeing the chat ?

[owenshooter]

If people want to talk privately, they already have countless options -- email, Messgenger, Skype, etc., etc., etc., etc.

Game chat is here specifically to enhance the game itself -- in-game diplomacy, arranging rematches, announcing sitters, commenting on the gameplay of others, etc. -- and these uses need to be publicly visible to prevent abuse.

thank you for agreeing with the black jesus, despite how far of course this debate has gotten from the original reason/idea... i think people need to start thinking for the good of the ENTIRE site and not just themselves or their clan. that is what got the site in trouble to begin with... bending to the whims of the few...-Bj

p.s.-bring back the old FREESTYLE rules!!!

[DirtyDishSoap]

Like Done has said, I don't understand the reasoning of why we couldn't have it.

Argument 1 - It promotes cheating. How so? "I'm in a secret alliance with such and such thus making it no longer secret but a secret secret." ????? Chat's usually the last thing to look at for cheating. No one is making the argument that the chat is strictly private. Just to the general public. Moderaters have access to it as they already have access to have everything else. If anything goes awry or there is a blatant issue, it's usually the players in that said game that bring up the issues, not someone from the outside.

Argument 2 - Coding it would be hard. I'm not getting this argument at all. We have a team chat, follow the same coding for it so no one else can see it. I'm by no means an expert in web design but I've taken a few classes in the field and it honestly wouldn't be hard to implement.

Argument 3 - We have numerous other ways to communicate. Cool, but I'm not going to leave Skype open for a game that takes days or even months to complete. Sometimes it's about 3 or 4 days until I can make a turn. In a speed game, sure makes sense.

[Dukasaur]

Like Done has said, I don't understand the reasoning of why we couldn't have it.

Argument 1 - It promotes cheating. How so? "I'm in a secret alliance with such and such thus making it no longer secret but a secret secret." ????? Chat's usually the last thing to look at for cheating.

Actually, for a case of secret diplomacy, chat is by far the most important thing. Quoting the rules,

Rule #2: No secret diplomacy

Any form of diplomatic discussion between opponents must only be posted in the game chat in English or in a language that all opponents understand. No other methods of communication may be used to hold diplomatic discussions between opponents including, but not limited to, the forum, the wall, Live Chat, or the inbox.

The very first thing you check was whether a diplomatic proposal was properly made in chat. So yeah, it's extremely important that it be openly visible.

No one is making the argument that the chat is strictly private. Just to the general public. Moderaters have access to it as they already have access to have everything else

Very common misconception. Most mods do not have access to anything that isn't publicly visible. Some classes of mods, like the multi-hunters and the globals, have powers to see some private areas, but not all. The admins and the globals can see into private forums, but even they cannot see into everything. Not even the admins can see into your inbox unless you report a post. Not even the admins can see your troops in a foggy game until it's over. Most people really overestimate the powers of the mods.

If anything goes awry or there is a blatant issue, it's usually the players in that said game that bring up the issues, not someone from the outside.

There are quite a few amateur sleuths on the site that help catch cheaters. Often they do the hard work of building a case and present it to the C&A team already neatly wrapped up. Without the contributions of these people, a lot of cheating would go undetected. Just as you overestimate the powers of the mods, you also overestimate the activity levels of the mods. Really, without the contributions of ordinary members building cases against cheaters, offenders would get away with a lot more crap than they do.

Argument 2 - Coding it would be hard. I'm not getting this argument at all. We have a team chat, follow the same coding for it so no one else can see it. I'm by no means an expert in web design but I've taken a few classes in the field and it honestly wouldn't be hard to implement.

.
I'm not a programmer. I honestly can't address how easy or how difficult it would be. I can only say this: Previously, programmers have been added to to team, full of piss and vinegar, thinking "it's just a browser game, how hard can it be?" and they found out otherwise. Most notoriously, in the summer of 2013, El_Jefe hired a couple of career professional programmers to revamp the site. They spent the whole summer trying to figure out the code, and in the fall they admitted that they were completely bewildered and didn't have a clue on how the site actually runs. Before that, on two different occasions the previous owner, lackattack, hired offshore programmers who pissed around for months before finally admitting that the game is a lot more complex than they realized and that they couldn't make heads or tails of the code. So, you'll forgive those of us who have been around a while if we're skeptical when someone walks in and says, "this is super-easy, I could do this with my hands behind my back." Again, I'm not a programmer and I've never been involved in the code, so I'm not making any positive assertions about whether this is easy or hard, only suspecting that it might be harder than you realize.

[2dimes]

Have a lot of cheaters been inviting victims to private games?

[nietzsche]

Argument 2 - Coding it would be hard. I'm not getting this argument at all. We have a team chat, follow the same coding for it so no one else can see it. I'm by no means an expert in web design but I've taken a few classes in the field and it honestly wouldn't be hard to implement.

.
I'm not a programmer. I honestly can't address how easy or how difficult it would be. I can only say this: Previously, programmers have been added to to team, full of piss and vinegar, thinking "it's just a browser game, how hard can it be?" and they found out otherwise. Most notoriously, in the summer of 2013, El_Jefe hired a couple of career professional programmers to revamp the site. They spent the whole summer trying to figure out the code, and in the fall they admitted that they were completely bewildered and didn't have a clue on how the site actually runs. Before that, on two different occasions the previous owner, lackattack, hired offshore programmers who pissed around for months before finally admitting that the game is a lot more complex than they realized and that they couldn't make heads or tails of the code. So, you'll forgive those of us who have been around a while if we're skeptical when someone walks in and says, "this is super-easy, I could do this with my hands behind my back." Again, I'm not a programmer and I've never been involved in the code, so I'm not making any positive assertions about whether this is easy or hard, only suspecting that it might be harder than you realize.

This is not hard to code at all Duk. This is basically as DDS points out, it's simply selecting who is sent something and who doesn't. And as DDS says, it's already coded for team chats. Basically there's a check server side, if the user requesting the game page is a player in the game, the html is formed to include chat, otherwise the html created doesn't include those lines.

What could be hard to code depending on how well is the existing code structured and documented are game related modifications and other things that start from zero that require adaptation to the existing code.

I'm surprised about what you say of the "professional programmers". I was a programmer for a very little time (and some 10 years ago) but that little time I experienced dealing with pre-existing huge code that was created following no guidelines at all, minimal if at all documentation, combination of structured and object oriented paradigms, assambler code in the middle of everywhere, and functions that were duplicated, etc. It took me a some time to begin to track things but certainly not a whole summer. I can imagine the most complex part of the running code to be the sempahores, or whatever technique is used for freestyle games.

[DirtyDishSoap]

Actually, for a case of secret diplomacy, chat is by far the most important thing. Quoting the rules...

The very first thing you check was whether a diplomatic proposal was properly made in chat. So yeah, it's extremely important that it be openly visible.
Again, this is an in game thing where people report, and even then, game logs will clearly show who's been siding with who. Chat is from what I have experienced, the least tangible evidence in that regard. Rules can state whatever, but a secret diplomacy will not be stated in chat. That's the argument.

Very common misconception. Most mods do not have access to anything that isn't publicly visible. Some classes of mods, like the multi-hunters and the globals, have powers to see some private areas, but not all. The admins and the globals can see into private forums, but even they cannot see into everything. Not even the admins can see into your inbox unless you report a post. Not even the admins can see your troops in a foggy game until it's over. Most people really overestimate the powers of the mods.

I call bullshit but then again I'm thinking of the dreaded 08-10 era. I'll be less skeptical and say sure, multihunters and globals can see private chat. Makes perfect sense because one is actually looking for cheating and the other is more like a head honcho. Doesn't make much sense to give it to a guy who's a, say, map foundry mod or whatever. So...Where's the issue exactly? They can see the chat.

There are quite a few amateur sleuths on the site that help catch cheaters. Often they do the hard work of building a case and present it to the C&A team already neatly wrapped up. Without the contributions of these people, a lot of cheating would go undetected. Just as you overestimate the powers of the mods, you also overestimate the activity levels of the mods. Really, without the contributions of ordinary members building cases against cheaters, offenders would get away with a lot more crap than they do.

Then hire them to be multi hunters and give them the job. If they have the incentive to look for cheaters, more power to them. Least they would be active. The argument that "We need people to police each other constantly" is lame. If the multi hunters activity is low, then why A. Have them? or B. Give it to the people who actually want a cheat free site? As a side note, I never estimated the activity of mod level, I simply said the player base reports it, normally in game. I'm sure if we drew out a graph it would far exceed the amount of times an outside player caught it than inside.

I'm not a programmer. I honestly can't address how easy or how difficult it would be. I can only say this: Previously, programmers have been added to to team, full of piss and vinegar, thinking "it's just a browser game, how hard can it be?" and they found out otherwise. Most notoriously, in the summer of 2013, El_Jefe hired a couple of career professional programmers to revamp the site. They spent the whole summer trying to figure out the code, and in the fall they admitted that they were completely bewildered and didn't have a clue on how the site actually runs. Before that, on two different occasions the previous owner, lackattack, hired offshore programmers who pissed around for months before finally admitting that the game is a lot more complex than they realized and that they couldn't make heads or tails of the code. So, you'll forgive those of us who have been around a while if we're skeptical when someone walks in and says, "this is super-easy, I could do this with my hands behind my back." Again, I'm not a programmer and I've never been involved in the code, so I'm not making any positive assertions about whether this is easy or hard, only suspecting that it might be harder than you realize.

What Niet said.

[Dukasaur]

Have a lot of cheaters been inviting victims to private games?

I don't know if it's a lot, but it's certainly some. What is particularly of concern here, is farmers like GLG and a few others, who invited people into their farming games under the guise of "teaching them the map" after which they would simply crush them and not teach them much of anything. I can see, if private chat was enabled, this method of farming could make a comeback. Some GLG-like prick comes along, says he's "teaching" people, invites them into private games and farms them. When a complaint is made, he waxes eloquent about how much good he is doing for the community, etc., etc. When we try to say, "but you're not actually teaching them anything" he says, "it's hidden in the private chat. Sorry you can't see it. Sux 2BU, na na na na na!"

---------------------------------------------------

@nietz. I'm not going to go to deep here. Like I said, I'm not qualified to judge how easy or difficult it is. All I can offer is the empirical evidence of the historical record: outside programmers were hired, they were all gung-ho and full of piss and vinegar and "oh yeah, this is no problemo!" and six month later they were admitting the code was too complex and they didn't have Clue #1 about where to start modifying it. Maybe they were just shitty programmers. I can't say. All I can say is that it makes me cautious about the claims of others who predict a smooth ride to Berlin and our troops will be home by Christmas.

[riskllama]

nietzsche = numero uno coder
mrs = queen of suggs
llama = arm candy

[nietzsche]

@nietz. I'm not going to go to deep here. Like I said, I'm not qualified to judge how easy or difficult it is. All I can offer is the empirical evidence of the historical record: outside programmers were hired, they were all gung-ho and full of piss and vinegar and "oh yeah, this is no problemo!" and six month later they were admitting the code was too complex and they didn't have Clue #1 about where to start modifying it. Maybe they were just shitty programmers. I can't say. All I can say is that it makes me cautious about the claims of others who predict a smooth ride to Berlin and our troops will be home by Christmas.

I know enough to not contradict them without seeing the code, I can imagine that certain things being hard to implement depending on the readability of the code, but not this one in particular.

[DirtyDishSoap]

Have a lot of cheaters been inviting victims to private games?

I don't know if it's a lot, but it's certainly some. What is particularly of concern here, is farmers like GLG and a few others, who invited people into their farming games under the guise of "teaching them the map" after which they would simply crush them and not teach them much of anything. I can see, if private chat was enabled, this method of farming could make a comeback. Some GLG-like prick comes along, says he's "teaching" people, invites them into private games and farms them. When a complaint is made, he waxes eloquent about how much good he is doing for the community, etc., etc. When we try to say, "but you're not actually teaching them anything" he says, "it's hidden in the private chat. Sorry you can't see it. Sux 2BU, na na na na na!".

So we're going to assume the other player that is getting farmed is a complete idiot, can't take a screen shot and post it in the cheating and abuse threads?

[2dimes]

Have a lot of cheaters been inviting victims to private games?

I don't know if it's a lot, but it's certainly some. What is particularly of concern here, is farmers like GLG and a few others, who invited people into their farming games under the guise of "teaching them the map" after which they would simply crush them and not teach them much of anything. I can see, if private chat was enabled, this method of farming could make a comeback. Some GLG-like prick comes along, says he's "teaching" people, invites them into private games and farms them. When a complaint is made, he waxes eloquent about how much good he is doing for the community, etc., etc. When we try to say, "but you're not actually teaching them anything" he says, "it's hidden in the private chat. Sorry you can't see it. Sux 2BU, na na na na na!".

I suspect team chat and private forums are not that secure. If moderators and Admins feel like going in and reading, I'm sure they can.

Yeah the thought of it being public might deter someone. I doubt it. They don't care now what would change?

[redhawk92]

Have a lot of cheaters been inviting victims to private games?

I don't know if it's a lot, but it's certainly some. What is particularly of concern here, is farmers like GLG and a few others, who invited people into their farming games under the guise of "teaching them the map" after which they would simply crush them and not teach them much of anything. I can see, if private chat was enabled, this method of farming could make a comeback. Some GLG-like prick comes along, says he's "teaching" people, invites them into private games and farms them. When a complaint is made, he waxes eloquent about how much good he is doing for the community, etc., etc. When we try to say, "but you're not actually teaching them anything" he says, "it's hidden in the private chat. Sorry you can't see it. Sux 2BU, na na na na na!".

So we're going to assume the other player that is getting farmed is a complete idiot, can't take a screen shot and post it in the cheating and abuse threads?

+1

[Metsfanmax]

Have a lot of cheaters been inviting victims to private games?

I don't know if it's a lot, but it's certainly some. What is particularly of concern here, is farmers like GLG and a few others, who invited people into their farming games under the guise of "teaching them the map" after which they would simply crush them and not teach them much of anything. I can see, if private chat was enabled, this method of farming could make a comeback. Some GLG-like prick comes along, says he's "teaching" people, invites them into private games and farms them. When a complaint is made, he waxes eloquent about how much good he is doing for the community, etc., etc. When we try to say, "but you're not actually teaching them anything" he says, "it's hidden in the private chat. Sorry you can't see it. Sux 2BU, na na na na na!".

So we're going to assume the other player that is getting farmed is a complete idiot, can't take a screen shot and post it in the cheating and abuse threads?

Most of these other players are completely oblivious, in part because they're just new and unfamiliar to the community. The people that participated in the reporting of the GLG farming saga were all veteran players who sleuthed through GLG's game history and wrote it up in C&A, not the new players who had actually been farmed.

[mrswdk]

Have a lot of cheaters been inviting victims to private games?

I don't know if it's a lot, but it's certainly some. What is particularly of concern here, is farmers like GLG and a few others, who invited people into their farming games under the guise of "teaching them the map" after which they would simply crush them and not teach them much of anything. I can see, if private chat was enabled, this method of farming could make a comeback. Some GLG-like prick comes along, says he's "teaching" people, invites them into private games and farms them. When a complaint is made, he waxes eloquent about how much good he is doing for the community, etc., etc. When we try to say, "but you're not actually teaching them anything" he says, "it's hidden in the private chat. Sorry you can't see it. Sux 2BU, na na na na na!".

I don't see how anyone could prove GLG didn't consider his actions to be teaching, or how chat would help them do that. I deliberately try to play games with high ranked players as often as I can so that I can watch how they play, how they use the maps etc. and learn from their example. They don't need to tell me anything for me to learn from them. So arguably, just by starting a game with a noob I am helping 'teach' them, and I can't think what you're ever going to see in game chat that would prove otherwise (unless I declare 'I have no intention of helping you and just want your points').
Plus, it's not like 'I'm teaching them' is the only way to pass off farming as something else. A Field Marshal recently PMed me to ask if I'd like to play 5 1v1 games with him, on an obscure map that I have a bad track record on and which he's played 1000s of games on. His invitation was almost certainly made based on a judgement that he'd likely win all 5 and get my points. But even if you think targeting people in this way is a problem, how would any of his game chats prove that that's what he's doing? He can just say he enjoys playing games on that map, and any 'evidence' you produce against him will be circumstantial at best.

I'm pretty sure I played against GenLee.Gettinhead and went back to check my game(s) with him to see what 'teaching' he may or may not have done, but it would appear every last trace of him has been expunged from the site. Shame, now we will never again know what he did or didn't do. Oh well!

[Dukasaur]

I'm pretty sure I played against GenLee.Gettinhead and went back to check my game(s) with him to see what 'teaching' he may or may not have done, but it would appear every last trace of him has been expunged from the site. Shame, now we will never again know what he did or didn't do. Oh well!

He was life-banned, but no, not expunged. His profile and games are visible. You're just spelling it wrong.
https://www.conquerclub.com/forum/memberlist.php?mode=viewprofile&u=228722
However, it doesn't look like you ever played him.