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Clan Ladder Version 2 - For Public Comments

Abandoned challenges and other old information.

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Re: Clan Ladder Version 2 - For Public Comments

Postby Masli on Sun May 31, 2009 5:15 am

GrimReaper. wrote:
Masli wrote:I will answer that

Because his clan drops from 6th place to 28th place

:lol: :lol: :lol: :lol:

Thats also a good reason to use the new one. It should not be possible that a new clan is in 6th place after 1 clan war.



ACTUALLY that's why i like it, so a new clan wont shoot right to the top like we did, however it does not address the United Faction problem


Can you explain a bit more then just saying : "the United Faction problem"?
An why would that be the reason not to use the new clan ladder?
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Re: Clan Ladder Version 2 - For Public Comments

Postby jpcloet on Mon Jun 01, 2009 6:00 pm

The United Factions is its own challenge and really has nothing to do with the ladder. The UF keeps changing and the current definition is an association. Hence, UF will not be put onto the ladder. Their status with the CLA is yet to be determined.
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Re: Clan Ladder Version 2 - For Public Comments

Postby ahunda on Tue Jun 02, 2009 7:15 am

Well. Ok. We had a little discussion & exchange of ideas / opinions in our clan forum, and I want to share something of this.

The details of the discussions about the scoring system for the clan ladder (all the formulas and that) go way over my head. My maths abilities just do for the calculating of a kill in an Escalating game ...

I think, we should try for a system, that a) avoids farming of lower ranked clans for points on the ladder, b) still leaves incentive for a higher ranked clan to accept a challenge from a lower ranked clan.

We are currently looking for a clan to challenge, but all the clans ranked higher than us seem to be engaged in a challenge already, and we were told, that a challenge against a lower ranked clan is hardly worth the effort, as it will not improve our ranking in the ladder. ThatĀ“s certainly not a great situation, but maybe there was/is some misunderstanding of the scoring system on our side.

And thatĀ“s about all, that I have to contribute on that issue ... :lol:

What really caught my interest are the ideas for the future of the clan league. And that is, what I really want to comment on:

1. Including Triples & Quads is a great idea IMO.

The matches would become kind of mini clan challenges then. And the league a real clan league instead of a Doubles league. My full support for this, especially since Doubles are most luck based of all team games, IMHO.

2. New division system is great too, I think. At least, if I understand it correctly.

I understand, there would be 2 (maybe even 3) divisions, in a kind of league system, sorted by strength/skill and completely separate from each other. Clans finishing last in division 1 would be relegated to division 2 for the next season and replaced by the top runners of division 2. My full support for this, too.

I never understood the idea with these 3 divisions and playing the clans in your division twice and the others only once, but then have an overall table for all of them. ItĀ“s kind of unbalanced & unfair, as the divisions will never be equally strong. So I support the idea of only having 1 division, where you play every clan once, and thatĀ“s it.

To create a really even playing field & avoid problems with the home & away system (playing one clan home, the other away), I also support the idea of both sides choosing exactly half of the maps/settings in every match.

3. Game-load issue.

I agree with those, who donĀ“t want to increase the game-load of the league too much, as it obviously puts quite a strain on the clans & especially the leaders, who have to organise teams & set up games all the time. On the other hand, the number of games per match shouldnĀ“t be too low either. The fewer games, the greater the luck factor.

In the current season each clan has to play 18 matches consisting of 10 Doubles each = 180 games in total. Each game being Doubles = 360 spots to fill.

If the new divisions would be smaller (say 10 clans), and there would be only 1 match against each other, the overall number of matches would be significantly lower (9 instead of 18). That would allow for more games in the single matches, without increasing the overall game-load of the league too much. The Triples & Quads however would bring some additional spots to fill.

For example: Each clan choosing 4 Doubles, 2 Triples & 2 Quads for each match would make it 8 Doubles, 4 Triples, 4 Quads = 16 games per match, with 48 spots to fill (2 for each Doubles, 3 for the Triples, 4 for the Quads). 10 clans in the division = 9 matches = 432 spots to fill.

Too much ? Make it 3 Doubles, 2 Triples & 2 Quads = 14 games & 40 spots per match. With 10 clans in the division: 360 spots to fill in the entire season. Precisely the same as in the current one.

Still too much ? Make it 2 Doubles, 2 Triples & 2 Quads = 12 games & 36 spots per match. With 10 clans in the division: 324 spots in the season. Fewer than in the current one. And I donĀ“t think, we should go lower than that.

Since Triples & Quads tend to take a bit longer than Doubles, IĀ“d suggest to start new matches in a 2 week rhythm (more BYE weeks). Also to keep the work-load on the clan leaders, who have to organise their teams & start games, at an acceptable level.

4. Map restrictions

I am absolutely against all these ideas of forcing clans to play a larger variety of maps (for example by enforcing a limit of games per map per season). Clans should be free to choose their home maps & settings as they see fit. If a clan is limited to only a handful of maps, theyĀ“ll most likely get enough negative results in their away games already. No need to force them to play their home games on maps they donĀ“t like/know too.

There is another idea about putting maps in categories of simple/standard, semi complex & complex. And then setting a limit on how many maps of which category can be used per match. IĀ“m not sure, what to make of that, but I tend to oppose this too.

Right now clans, who have specialists on certain tricky maps, can use this to their advantage in their home games. I know, that this has led several clans to create kind of map learning programmes, where some players coach others on the trickier & more complex maps, so that they will have more players, who can play those maps in the league & in challenges. Fine.

If a clan doesnĀ“t have any specialists and chooses to play all its home games on fairly standard maps with fairly standard settings (no fog, etc.), then they are giving up an advantage, because every half decent clan can be expected to have some players, who are doing well on these maps & settings. That is their choice. Why force them to play x number of games on more complex maps ?

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Re: Clan Ladder Version 2 - For Public Comments

Postby jpcloet on Tue Jun 02, 2009 8:04 am

ahunda wrote:I think, we should try for a system, that a) avoids farming of lower ranked clans for points on the ladder, b) still leaves incentive for a higher ranked clan to accept a challenge from a lower ranked clan.

Great goals to have.
ahunda wrote:We are currently looking for a clan to challenge, but all the clans ranked higher than us seem to be engaged in a challenge already, and we were told, that a challenge against a lower ranked clan is hardly worth the effort, as it will not improve our ranking in the ladder. ThatĀ“s certainly not a great situation, but maybe there was/is some misunderstanding of the scoring system on our side.

Given V2 is not fully tested, I can't answer this yet fully. Clans should focus on 1. Increasing their win % by winning, 2. winning against good clans, and 3. winning against clans that they themselves have faced good clans.
ahunda wrote:4. Map restrictions
I am absolutely against all these ideas of forcing clans to play a larger variety of maps (for example by enforcing a limit of games per map per season). Clans should be free to choose their home maps & settings as they see fit. If a clan is limited to only a handful of maps, theyĀ“ll most likely get enough negative results in their away games already. No need to force them to play their home games on maps they donĀ“t like/know too.

Oddly enough, this is the area that some clans are feeling "farmed" in, which goes against your goal in your first quoted statement. I recently saw a statement that AOR maps are "farming" maps. While I disagree, from that person's perspective, it may appear completely true. I joined a game in the league, which I knew I was going to lose, and fully admit to telling the other team afterward, that it felt like I was just farmed. I agree that home teams should be able to pick their maps and settings, however, a limit needs to be set to ensure that clans don't abuse this, eg. picking all 10 in one week of 1 map. I would love for this limitation to be minimal itself, but it will really depend on the schedule structure. At the same time, I don't want for the league to be some glorified tournament by fixing the settings and maps.

To keep this conversation going, I ask this - Should a clan be considered the best clan if they can play on 5 maps that no one knows? How would your future answer change if it was 10 maps and CC had close to 300 maps? We may get there one day.
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Re: Clan Ladder Version 2 - For Public Comments

Postby ahunda on Tue Jun 02, 2009 9:50 am

jpcloet wrote:I agree that home teams should be able to pick their maps and settings, however, a limit needs to be set to ensure that clans don't abuse this, eg. picking all 10 in one week of 1 map.

Agreed. But there are restrictions in place already: No map more than once in one week. And IĀ“m fine with that.

jpcloet wrote:To keep this conversation going, I ask this - Should a clan be considered the best clan if they can play on 5 maps that no one knows? How would your future answer change if it was 10 maps and CC had close to 300 maps? We may get there one day.

I guess, that clan would be known for it and have the appropriate reputation. And all the other clans would have the chance to learn those maps too & take their advantage away.

I mean, this kind of stuff is happening already. Some clans are known to mostly play the standard/classic maps and be really good on those. Some are known for having great all-round players, who can play any map & setting. Some are said to choose only crappy/weird maps & settings. What gives ?

On the long run, a clan will have to be able to hold their own on any map & setting, if they want to succeed. Because they are forced to play everything, that is thrown at them by the others in the away games. And I know of at least some clans, that are already trying to broaden their horizons map-wise, because it has become more important to know the trickier & special maps in challenges, etc.

I see, where you are coming from though. And maybe some form of minimal limit could be introduced. I mostly play fairly standard classic-style maps myself. So coming up against a clan, that is choosing only conqueror style maps (AoR, Feudal, etc.) or other "weird" maps such as City Mogul or [fill in any map you personally dislike] isnĀ“t great fun for me either.

Me & my clan would probably benefit, if a minimum of games would be forced to be played on standard maps. But I shouldnĀ“t approach the issue from such a perspective, I think. If we get beaten by a lower ranked clan, because they choose maps, that we are uncomfortable with, then maybe we should consider learning these maps.

IsnĀ“t variety pushed & achieved that way too ?
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Re: Clan Ladder Version 2 - For Public Comments

Postby AndrewB on Mon Jun 08, 2009 3:32 pm

I think that in the new version the direct win factor should be higher then 30%. I played some scenarios and it was going down to 28%. Opponents win and Opponents Opponents win should be lower then direct win impact. Maybe we can apply some multiplier factor to level it out. I.E. 90% to OW and 80% to OOW.

Also it seems weird that as result of the challenge between 2 clans the other, third clan can be affected.

Also some operational, timing question:

Obviously that timing of the rating calculation is important. I.E. when clan A wins against clan B when clan B is rated 1000 because of the initial placements then it produces the different results, when Clan B has another win in their pocket accounted for.

Does the spreadsheet and formulas within take that into the consideration? I.E. does it go chronologically while calculating the rating? This same questions applies to BOTH current and proposed ladder system.
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Re: Clan Ladder Version 2 - For Public Comments

Postby jpcloet on Mon Jun 08, 2009 3:44 pm

I've been working my butt off on a number of things, but did spend some time last night converting the "reliability rating" to be a factor and not additive. I feel like a whole bunch of results may end up happening all at once in the clan area. Could be a :shock: for some if it does.

Factors for each area is a good idea....will work on that. Right now they are indirect vs direct factors.

Also it seems weird that as result of the challenge between 2 clans the other, third clan can be affected.


It's not impacted that much, but does have an effect. Imagine for a moment that THOTA beats a new clan. Other than that result, we have no relative understanding of how good that win was. Now say that the new clan beat G1, we now know how good of a win that first win is. It loosely follows the idea A beats B, B beats C, so A should be better than C.

Obviously that timing of the rating calculation is important. I.E. when clan A wins against clan B when clan B is rated 1000 because of the initial placements then it produces the different results, when Clan B has another win in their pocket accounted for. Does the spreadsheet and formulas within take that into the consideration? I.E. does it go chronologically while calculating the rating? This same questions applies to BOTH current and proposed ladder system.


Current ladder: Chronological
New ladder: Historical adjusted (Hence some discussion as to how much data to keep, eg 2 years)
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Re: Clan Ladder Version 2 - For Public Comments

Postby AndrewB on Mon Jun 08, 2009 3:55 pm

jpcloet wrote:
Also it seems weird that as result of the challenge between 2 clans the other, third clan can be affected.


It's not impacted that much, but does have an effect. Imagine for a moment that THOTA beats a new clan. Other than that result, we have no relative understanding of how good that win was. Now say that the new clan beat G1, we now know how good of a win that first win is. It loosely follows the idea A beats B, B beats C, so A should be better than C.


Yes, that seems right indeed, just weird. I dont think i have ever saw a rating like this before.

jpcloet wrote:
Obviously that timing of the rating calculation is important. I.E. when clan A wins against clan B when clan B is rated 1000 because of the initial placements then it produces the different results, when Clan B has another win in their pocket accounted for. Does the spreadsheet and formulas within take that into the consideration? I.E. does it go chronologically while calculating the rating? This same questions applies to BOTH current and proposed ladder system.


Current ladder: Chronological
New ladder: Historical adjusted (Hence some discussion as to how much data to keep, eg 2 years)


Not sure what historically adjusted means? How exactly does it happen? As per how much data to keep, it must be a WAY more then 2 years. Our experience tells us that on average 1 clan has a few challenges per year (probably around 3 wars per year). So having just 6 results to base the rating on is not such a good idea. Should be more, away more.
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Re: Clan Ladder Version 2 - For Public Comments

Postby jpcloet on Mon Jun 08, 2009 4:02 pm

The College Football uses this and 5/6 other computer ratings to create the BCS.

You are right, 2 years may not be enough. With the league data in there every year, it may be enough. See the CC News this week for some challenge stats. ;) (not yet posted)
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Re: Clan Ladder Version 2 - For Public Comments

Postby AndrewB on Mon Jun 08, 2009 7:09 pm

Do we need to cut out any results at all?
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Re: Clan Ladder Version 2 - For Public Comments

Postby jpcloet on Mon Jun 08, 2009 8:05 pm

AndrewB wrote:Do we need to cut out any results at all?


Good question, in the BCS, they only use the current season.

I would argue that THOTA vs Knights of the Empire will eventually be irrelevant.
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Re: Clan Ladder Version 2 - For Public Comments

Postby GrimReaper. on Mon Jun 08, 2009 9:16 pm

I think we would need to wait a another season to get enough data.
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Re: Clan Ladder Version 2 - For Public Comments

Postby jpcloet on Mon Jun 08, 2009 9:20 pm

GrimReaper. wrote:I think we would need to wait a another season to get enough data.


Maybe for all of the ladder. The clan league clans are pretty much cemented where many think they should be.

Have to say Grim, I'm impressed with your clan if late. Getting Darth as a leader was very smart of you and your current challenge looks impressive.
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Re: Clan Ladder Version 2 - For Public Comments

Postby GrimReaper. on Tue Jun 09, 2009 6:13 am

thx man

i learned a few things from LoD
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Re: Clan Ladder Version 2 - For Public Comments

Postby GrimReaper. on Wed Jun 17, 2009 12:28 pm

how about before any more tweaks are made we take clans tat no longer are active... like Koe and marvel DC heroes... possibly the TUC (However im not sure if they are active)
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Re: Clan Ladder Version 2 - For Public Comments

Postby andy_is_awesome on Wed Jun 24, 2009 3:55 pm

Only active clans on the ladder right?
How do we define active???

1 challenge per year?
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Re: Clan Ladder Version 2 - For Public Comments

Postby jpcloet on Wed Jun 24, 2009 4:30 pm

andy_is_awesome wrote:Only active clans on the ladder right?
How do we define active???

1 challenge per year?


Yet to be determined. I was thinking 6 months, but wait a little bit to carry on this piece of the conversation.
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Re: Clan Ladder Version 2 - For Public Comments

Postby jpcloet on Fri Jul 03, 2009 1:51 pm

Newest version has been posted.
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Re: Clan Ladder Version 2 - For Public Comments

Postby e_i_pi on Sat Jul 04, 2009 4:36 pm

Is the league data in this model yet, or are you waiting until Week 24 wraps up?
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Re: Clan Ladder Version 2 - For Public Comments

Postby jpcloet on Sat Jul 04, 2009 4:53 pm

e_i_pi wrote:Is the league data in this model yet, or are you waiting until Week 24 wraps up?


The ladder above is stale, let me link to the new thread.

The answer is yes including the partial results.
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Re: Clan Ladder Version 2 - For Public Comments

Postby e_i_pi on Sat Jul 04, 2009 5:31 pm

jpcloet wrote:The ladder above is stale, let me link to the new thread.

Crikey, sorry jp. Yeah the link is here viewtopic.php?f=438&t=90907 I'm a doofus
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