Clan Ladder Version 2 - For Public Comments

[e_i_pi]

I agree that 2 challenges isn't a good indicator of a clan's strength. Within those 2 challenges we chose real opponents. At the time of the first challenge with LoW, I don't think the ladder was in place but IA was 7th I believe. Challenges take great effort to plan and play-- and we don't take it lightly. Shall we beat up 3 noob clans and jump straight to the top and be 5-0? Where's the fun in that?!

My concern was never about where TSM should be but where certain clans shouldn't be.

This brings us to why clan matches are played. Should it not be to prove who is the better clan? Well at least for this match. I guess some clans would rather play 10 crappy clans over 5 quality wins. Farming clans for points sucks. I guess the same could be said about the CC ladder.

This is true, all farming should be not only discouraged, but basically not possible IMO. If clan challenges introduce the possibility of farming for ladder points, that's just as bad as new recruits getting klobbered... I mean clobbered. Freudian slip.

My the same token though, people want a yardstick to measure by. The clan league has been good for this - there are so many match-ups between clans that it is virtually a round-robin tournament. I would like to see every clan play every other clan, but that is far too many games.

Perhaps it's time to start thinking about splitting the clans into divisions, and have promotion / relegation? Three divisions would be about 10-12 clans per division, a season could be played in about 3-4 months. Could have 2 up 2 down, or 3 up 3 down, even have playoffs so top 2 up, 3rd and 4th playoff for the 3rd promotion spot.

[jpcloet]

Perhaps it's time to start thinking about splitting the clans into divisions, and have promotion / relegation? Three divisions would be about 10-12 clans per division, a season could be played in about 3-4 months. Could have 2 up 2 down, or 3 up 3 down, even have playoffs so top 2 up, 3rd and 4th playoff for the 3rd promotion spot.

Already started months ago in the CLA.....2 divisions appear more likely than 3 right now. Playoffs is a big favourite and I think promotion-relegation is needed to make it all work(although with more and more clans being added over time a relegation might be nullified by division expansion ). Adding some trips and quads into the mix is almost assured as well.

[e_i_pi]

Perhaps it's time to start thinking about splitting the clans into divisions, and have promotion / relegation? Three divisions would be about 10-12 clans per division, a season could be played in about 3-4 months. Could have 2 up 2 down, or 3 up 3 down, even have playoffs so top 2 up, 3rd and 4th playoff for the 3rd promotion spot.

Already started months ago in the CLA.....2 divisions appear more likely than 3 right now. Playoffs is a big favourite and I think promotion-relegation is needed to make it all work(although with more and more clans being added over time a relegation might be nullified by division expansion ). Adding some trips and quads into the mix is almost assured as well.

How about this:

2 divisions
3 leagues in each division - Doubles, Triples, Quads
Clan match-ups are 4-5 games in each type instead of the 10 in Doubles right now
This results in 4 league scoreboards - Doubles, Triples, Quads, and Overall - the Overall is just the others added together
Overall is used for promotion / relegation purposes, but there are "mini-championship" titles in Dubs/Trips/Quads each season

This gives clans a little more to aim for - a clan might not be the best overall, but may be the best triples can

[jpcloet]

I like the idea. The challenge has been with the size of some clans. As they are smaller, it makes it more difficult (less spots and game capacity) to do an even amount of Doubles, Triples, and Quads and I was thinking (4,2,2) so that each clan has "home" games against every team so that each side delivers (2,1,1) every non-bye week. That would mean going from 20 spots (10*2) to 22 spots(4*2+2*3+2*4) which seems manageable. A few clans have had challenges with the 20 and having more Division 2 clans means it may be a surprise to them on how challenging it is to run a clan/challenge/league. I don't want Division 2 to be overwhelmed since to some, this will be all new in many ways to them.

The second consideration is how to get most clans to play most maps. Right now clans seem to be picking the same 20 maps that are their favorites. Right now there are no repeats during a week, but depending on setup, no repeats across the entire season may be possible, or maybe a limit of 2 to 3 times. I think the setup will help determine that.

[e_i_pi]

I like the idea. The challenge has been with the size of some clans. As they are smaller, it makes it more difficult (less spots and game capacity) to do an even amount of Doubles, Triples, and Quads and I was thinking (4,2,2) so that each clan has "home" games against every team so that each side delivers (2,1,1) every non-bye week. That would mean going from 20 spots (10*2) to 22 spots(4*2+2*3+2*4) which seems manageable. A few clans have had challenges with the 20 and having more Division 2 clans means it may be a surprise to them on how challenging it is to run a clan/challenge/league. I don't want Division 2 to be overwhelmed since to some, this will be all new in many ways to them.

You're running into a dual problem here jp - clans may not have enough members to fill 4/4/4, but is 4/2/2 (or 10/0/0 as it is now) a fair representation of a clans overall ability? Most (all?) clan challenges involve more than just doubles games. Perhaps have completely separate leagues for doubles, triples, quads, and clans can choose to enter any they wish to? That way, a larger more organised clan can contend several titles, and the smaller clans can still give it a go

The second consideration is how to get most clans to play most maps. Right now clans seem to be picking the same 20 maps that are their favorites. Right now there are no repeats during a week, but depending on setup, no repeats across the entire season may be possible, or maybe a limit of 2 to 3 times. I think the setup will help determine that.

Keep in mind jp that, as much as maps are meant to be cross-setting friendly, a lot of them suck for it. I'd hate to see Lux/Doodle/Madag on quads for instance. I know that my clan has made some executive decisions on maps to avoid, as they are not suited to doubles for one reason or another. I have recently started playing 1v1s and thought I'd add USApocalypse to the mix - I've found it's quite terrible for 1v1 - 15 territories each, and the radiation bonus means the player going first has a very distinct advantage (on average).

[Bruceswar]

The second consideration is how to get most clans to play most maps. Right now clans seem to be picking the same 20 maps that are their favorites. Right now there are no repeats during a week, but depending on setup, no repeats across the entire season may be possible, or maybe a limit of 2 to 3 times. I think the setup will help determine that.

We have been round and round on this issue. Unless we have some map list of normal, semi complex and complex maps, clans will pick their favorites, and we will be back at square 1. Also forcing clans to play X amount of maps would cause many clans to sit the sidelines. The map system is fine now, but needs to be so a clan can pick X normal maps (up to the max number) or can split it with X semi complex and X complex. Give a number that X cannot be more than. If we have 22 games then say 14 normal 4 semi complex and 4 complex?

[Seulessliathan]

I like the idea. The challenge has been with the size of some clans. As they are smaller, it makes it more difficult (less spots and game capacity) to do an even amount of Doubles, Triples, and Quads and I was thinking (4,2,2) so that each clan has "home" games against every team so that each side delivers (2,1,1) every non-bye week. That would mean going from 20 spots (10*2) to 22 spots(4*2+2*3+2*4) which seems manageable. A few clans have had challenges with the 20 and having more Division 2 clans means it may be a surprise to them on how challenging it is to run a clan/challenge/league. I don't want Division 2 to be overwhelmed since to some, this will be all new in many ways to them.

You're running into a dual problem here jp - clans may not have enough members to fill 4/4/4, but is 4/2/2 (or 10/0/0 as it is now) a fair representation of a clans overall ability? Most (all?) clan challenges involve more than just doubles games. Perhaps have completely separate leagues for doubles, triples, quads, and clans can choose to enter any they wish to? That way, a larger more organised clan can contend several titles, and the smaller clans can still give it a go

i agree with pi here, if we keep the number of games very low, it will be more about luck than about skill. Just 4 home games isn´t enough for such a challenge imo.
All clans will see the number of games before they agree to join this league, if they don´t have enough players, they still have options: recruiting new players, avoiding the league and just play a clan war with another small clan. I don´t believe we have to look for a league which works for ALL clans, just for MOST clans. Perhaps you make a poll in cla forum to discuss the number (not sure if you already do this because we don´t have any monki in there), if you find a size 80% of clans agree with, this might be enough. What about a second league just for the small clans with lower game count? One league for big clans, one for the others, if a small clan really wants to play with the big clans, i´m sure they will find a way to manage.

[Bruceswar]

1 league for all clans would work. As a smaller clan, we would be able to fill the games needed. If a clan cannot then they have issues beyond any league.

[jpcloet]

Most of the smaller clans are actually the elite clans......

[Bruceswar]

Most of the smaller clans are actually the elite clans......

Which means we can all fill the games.

[jpcloet]

That's actually not true. Several of those clans have indicated at some point or another that the current game load (ie. more than one week) is not easy to manage. I really don't want the league settings to force a clan to be of a certain size. We're already beginning to force clan members to mainly be premiums as it is.

[e_i_pi]

That's actually not true. Several of those clans have indicated at some point or another that the current game load (ie. more than one week) is not easy to manage. I really don't want the league settings to force a clan to be of a certain size. We're already beginning to force clan members to mainly be premiums as it is.

Yeah I'm one of the people expressing that. The game-load of the league, along with tournaments, and clan challenges normally means that my clan isn't putting its best team forward because there's too much workload to get people organised. Sometimes we have trouble even getting games organised on time. This isn't a good situation, and it certainly isn't enjoyable, the way a game is meant to be. At the end of the day, I'm less concerned about whether we're 1st or 10th, and more concerned at how much fun my clan members are having. We all have our spats every now and then, but I've noticed an increased amount of stress since the commencement of the league, due to the massive increase in organised games. It's not the number of games, it's the organisation of them that's the real killer.

[Bruceswar]

That's actually not true. Several of those clans have indicated at some point or another that the current game load (ie. more than one week) is not easy to manage. I really don't want the league settings to force a clan to be of a certain size. We're already beginning to force clan members to mainly be premiums as it is.

Did we not go over this in the CLA already? I thought we all wanted more bye weeks to solve this issue?

[jpcloet]

Well the organization would be easier, but admin has rejected several requests and OTIS is not here yet. So we make due with what we have. All these considerations can be difficult to manage but I really think a smaller game load is needed. I forget where I wrote this, but a smaller schedule will allow for

1. Easier to manage
2. More bye-weeks
3. Room for playoffs
4. Room for relegation battles

fastposted by Bruce...

[Bruceswar]

That's actually not true. Several of those clans have indicated at some point or another that the current game load (ie. more than one week) is not easy to manage. I really don't want the league settings to force a clan to be of a certain size. We're already beginning to force clan members to mainly be premiums as it is.

Yeah I'm one of the people expressing that. The game-load of the league, along with tournaments, and clan challenges normally means that my clan isn't putting its best team forward because there's too much workload to get people organised. Sometimes we have trouble even getting games organised on time. This isn't a good situation, and it certainly isn't enjoyable, the way a game is meant to be. At the end of the day, I'm less concerned about whether we're 1st or 10th, and more concerned at how much fun my clan members are having. We all have our spats every now and then, but I've noticed an increased amount of stress since the commencement of the league, due to the massive increase in organised games. It's not the number of games, it's the organisation of them that's the real killer.

BTW been there done that. I found it best to place people on map they were good at. Worked well with 1 person getting all the games ready. Then sending a single PM to the clan members to get into the right games. Made life so much easier than trying to wait on 10 games to get to 1 person so they could be PM'ed to the other clan. 1 person makes all the games, and just drops the ones he is not in. Simple and works well.

[jpcloet]

I used to do that, but once my clan got into a routine, I pretty much order games like an order at Wendy's. "Can I get a Doubles game, no beta, no FS, in a 4-player doubles package, can you write pw =lodrules on the wrapper so I know which one has cheese."

[Bruceswar]

I used to do that, but once my clan got into a routine, I pretty much order games like an order at Wendy's. "Can I get a Doubles game, no beta, no FS, in a 4-player doubles package, can you write pw =lodrules on the wrapper so I know which one has cheese."

No all joking aside it worked well. When I was with IA, I would map rank clan members in doubles to see which maps they were best on, if I did not know already. I would then place them for the best chance at winning. Generally worked out well. All members got a chance to play and life was easier.

[GrimReaper.]

Truth be told after looking at both i like the current one better

[jpcloet]

Truth be told after looking at both i like the current one better

Any particular reason why?

[Masli]

I will answer that

Because his clan drops from 6th place to 28th place



Thats also a good reason to use the new one. It should not be possible that a new clan is in 6th place after 1 clan war.

[MarVal]

Well the organization would be easier, but admin has rejected several requests and OTIS is not here yet. So we make due with what we have. All these considerations can be difficult to manage but I really think a smaller game load is needed. I forget where I wrote this, but a smaller schedule will allow for

1. Easier to manage
2. More bye-weeks
3. Room for playoffs
4. Room for relegation battles

fastposted by Bruce...

Version 2 is a potential option at this moment.
Just like jpcloet already said here above, without OTIS around CC must handle what there is right now to make a Clan Ladder that fits and with above smaller schedule it can have potential and its better to handle for jpcloet. Especially if there will be more Clans to join CLA.

Grtz
Marv

[Incandenza]

It's not the number of games, it's the organisation of them that's the real killer.

BTW been there done that. I found it best to place people on map they were good at. Worked well with 1 person getting all the games ready. Then sending a single PM to the clan members to get into the right games. Made life so much easier than trying to wait on 10 games to get to 1 person so they could be PM'ed to the other clan. 1 person makes all the games, and just drops the ones he is not in. Simple and works well.

You know, way back in the day, players would run a tourney, and then use their tournament privileges to set up specialized games, like the elite games that Scorba established, or proto-challenge games.

Of course, that ability has been long since taken away, which IMHO is completely insane. I think we can all agree that organization of challenges and clan leagues and what not is a killer, especially keeping tabs on results. And now chipv has that new tourney tracker plugin thing, which would make life soooooo much easier for, say, jp, who wouldn't have to troll thru games in order to update the clan league. But without tourney privileges, game creations can't tag games with the required labels to get the tourney tracker to work.

Yeah, OTIS is supposedly going to be cool, but we could grow old waiting for it. Why not grant tourney privileges to clan challenges leaders, ESPECIALLY if we're talking about established clans with trustworthy members. We're all adults here (in spirit if not in actuality). Taking this small step would substantially reduce the amount of bullshit logistics work involved with a clan challenge, and yet it's been soundly rejected a number of times. Why?

[jpcloet]

I wish I had an answer for you. Only Optimus Prime and Lack can tell you since I don't know why this was rejected again from my proposal about a month ago. They know something I don't. I've worked a little with ChipV lately and it is only possible to do the clan stats if there is a clan wars tag, which would require clan challenge game creation rights. Until that happens, ChipV can't do what he would like to do either.

[Incandenza]

I wish I had an answer for you. Only Optimus Prime and Lack can tell you since I don't know why this was rejected again from my proposal about a month ago. They know something I don't. I've worked a little with ChipV lately and it is only possible to do the clan stats if there is a clan wars tag, which would require clan challenge game creation rights. Until that happens, ChipV can't do what he would like to do either.

It's a shame... I know that keeping up with ongoing/completed games in the thota/low challenge has taken me quite a bit of time. I can't imagine how much more time you've sunk into the clan league, much of which could've been saved by the simple application of game tags.

[GrimReaper.]

I will answer that

Because his clan drops from 6th place to 28th place



Thats also a good reason to use the new one. It should not be possible that a new clan is in 6th place after 1 clan war.

ACTUALLY that's why i like it, so a new clan wont shoot right to the top like we did, however it does not address the United Faction problem