Unofficial Clan Ladder - Updated May 17th-2009

[BaldAdonis]

Organization skill (The ability to create and manage a challenge)

I think you should base everything in the ladder off of this. Then you won't have to deal with players bringing their own silly politics into your thread when they can't make a deal on their own. They'd be at the bottom of the ladder so they wouldn't care about it at all, and every other clan will know who to play against - the reasonable people.

[AndrewB]

And we really appreciate everyone hard work put in this. I can tell, as I am personally doing a lot for CC too (I believe, correct me if I am wrong) by running several very time demanding tournaments.

But if you would think about it without prejudgment to THOTA or our comments etc, you would realize that getting lots of ladder points from the new clan is absurd (even I do share you sentiment helping a new clan start).

i have no feuds with you man.

also, i dont care about the points anymore. i wasnt even thinking about it when we accepted in all honesty.

I truly believe you. But what we meant, that case presented us with the flaw in the ladder system. And if we could come up with the ideas how to fix that, it would be good for everybody's sake. That is all

[laddida]

Out of all the suggestions and ideas, I still like the tiered system best. It revolves around the same ELO principles, except you cannot move up a tier until you beat a clan in the tier above you. I will continue to work on that one, and leave the other ones alone for now. I will post that one for comments likely next weekend.

i used to play several games on cases ladder long ass time ago and that is how they did it they gave you the wins and the % but unless you beat a clan that is in front of you...you move nowhere. SO rank 6 clan can win 10000000000000 games against rank 27 clan but still be rank 6 but boost their wins and % but will show they are noob farmers. I also like this idea cause it will mean the best clan will be forced to play best clan

[jpcloet]

laddida, that sounds like a basic leap frog ladder, or a halving leap frog ladder. We've been using the second one in LOD and it's worked better than I thought. The only issue I have with these is that it's harder to manage if a clan is in multiple challenges at once. That I can do and show quite easily, however, I'll have to make some assumptions and do a little research as to clan origination dates.

[firstholliday]

Out of all the suggestions and ideas, I still like the tiered system best. It revolves around the same ELO principles, except you cannot move up a tier until you beat a clan in the tier above you. I will continue to work on that one, and leave the other ones alone for now. I will post that one for comments likely next weekend.

i used to play several games on cases ladder long ass time ago and that is how they did it they gave you the wins and the % but unless you beat a clan that is in front of you...you move nowhere. SO rank 6 clan can win 10000000000000 games against rank 27 clan but still be rank 6 but boost their wins and % but will show they are noob farmers. I also like this idea cause it will mean the best clan will be forced to play best clan

aha Laddi.
So we are nr 7.. challenge the nr 6. Games start in 5 weeks. Every month 1 clan. We'll be nr 1 on Newyears eve.

Woooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooot

[laddida]

Out of all the suggestions and ideas, I still like the tiered system best. It revolves around the same ELO principles, except you cannot move up a tier until you beat a clan in the tier above you. I will continue to work on that one, and leave the other ones alone for now. I will post that one for comments likely next weekend.

i used to play several games on cases ladder long ass time ago and that is how they did it they gave you the wins and the % but unless you beat a clan that is in front of you...you move nowhere. SO rank 6 clan can win 10000000000000 games against rank 27 clan but still be rank 6 but boost their wins and % but will show they are noob farmers. I also like this idea cause it will mean the best clan will be forced to play best clan

aha Laddi.
So we are nr 7.. challenge the nr 6. Games start in 5 weeks. Every month 1 clan. We'll be nr 1 on Newyears eve.

Woooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooot

excuse first hes just excited for his holiday... GO ALREADY!

[firstholliday]

Out of all the suggestions and ideas, I still like the tiered system best. It revolves around the same ELO principles, except you cannot move up a tier until you beat a clan in the tier above you. I will continue to work on that one, and leave the other ones alone for now. I will post that one for comments likely next weekend.

i used to play several games on cases ladder long ass time ago and that is how they did it they gave you the wins and the % but unless you beat a clan that is in front of you...you move nowhere. SO rank 6 clan can win 10000000000000 games against rank 27 clan but still be rank 6 but boost their wins and % but will show they are noob farmers. I also like this idea cause it will mean the best clan will be forced to play best clan

aha Laddi.
So we are nr 7.. challenge the nr 6. Games start in 5 weeks. Every month 1 clan. We'll be nr 1 on Newyears eve.

Woooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooot

excuse first hes just excited for his holiday... GO ALREADY!

[jpcloet]

A Ladder revamp has been posted in the CLA for review, will post publicly soon for comments.

[Blitzaholic]

A Ladder revamp has been posted in the CLA for review, will post publicly soon for comments.

I will most likely comment once I get to review it to see the mathmatical equations, then I will pm georgerx7di to ensure it, he is math wizard that lad, lol

[Scott-Land]

Looking at the top 6 of the ladder--

1 Legends of War 112.32 Points 119-72 62% With a loss, not sure how they are ahead of THOTA.
2 THOTA 111.27 Points 190-112 63% Undefeated in 5 challenges but yet are #2.
3 EMPIRE 107.56 Points 100-71 58% 5-0 Defeated ID... good ranking.
4 Sky Force 106.09 Points 132-123 52% 3-3They've beat a clan that is ranked 31 of 31, 30 of 30 and a clan that has lost 4 of 9 challenges.
5 ++The Legion++ 105.43 Points 148-135 52% -- No disrespect to Legion but the ranking here is laughable. 5-4 weak wins with the exception of TBH.
6 Agents Of Chaos 102.25 Points 13-7 65% They defeated the bottom team of the ladder (31) Water's Fury 91.35 Points

[jpcloet]

The ladder is a good idea, but you point out many the same concerns I and others have. I'll open up the discussion here as well for public comments.

viewtopic.php?f=274&t=87397

[e_i_pi]

Looking at the top 6 of the ladder--

1 Legends of War 112.32 Points 119-72 62% With a loss, not sure how they are ahead of THOTA.
2 THOTA 111.27 Points 190-112 63% Undefeated in 5 challenges but yet are #2.
3 EMPIRE 107.56 Points 100-71 58% 5-0 Defeated ID... good ranking.
4 Sky Force 106.09 Points 132-123 52% 3-3They've beat a clan that is ranked 31 of 31, 30 of 30 and a clan that has lost 4 of 9 challenges.
5 ++The Legion++ 105.43 Points 148-135 52% -- No disrespect to Legion but the ranking here is laughable. 5-4 weak wins with the exception of TBH.
6 Agents Of Chaos 102.25 Points 13-7 65% They defeated the bottom team of the ladder (31) Water's Fury 91.35 Points

Look, I think most people agree that the way the ladder works isn't the best, but there are reasonable explanations for all of the scores above, given the rules of scoring.

1. LoW - We were just behind THOTA until our most recent win. We got a lot of points from that as the team were unranked and so got the automatic 100 point ranking - keep in mind we won 25-5, we won 5 games for every 1 that they won. It's the same as someone playing a New Recruit in 1v1 - look at how many games Maxatstuy won against New Recruits... the win rate was around 95-100%, yet he got 5 points per game with a potential loss of 80 points. Now, we didn't go looking for a new clan to play, they challenged us - if they had challenged TSM, would you have turned them down? Besides, if you're that worried about points, why don't you play them, see if you can manage an 83% win rate.
2. THOTA - THOTA have played 3 clans that were unranked, the same thing that caused uproar at LoW's win against Project Enigma. Also, keep in mind that LoWs opponents have an average ladder rank of 15, whereas THOTA's have an average ladder rank of 22 - that's almost 3/4 of the way down the ladder.
3. EMPIRE - Average opponent is 18th in the league, they are 5 from 5. So they're undefeated, but playing opposition that average below middling skill. It's reasonable that they're up the top but not in top spot.
4. Sky Force - Yes, they've beaten the clans coming last and second last, but they've also beaten the clan coming 5th, and 2 of their losses are against 10th place and 1st place.
5. +++The Legion+++ - 5 weak wins, and you quote TBH as being their best one? TBH are the 4th lowest clan that they've beaten. Eternal Empire and Order of Odin are ranked higher than TBH, and I believe TUC were higher at the time. TBH are 23rd/31 teams. The Legions losses are against EMPIRE (15-16 loss) and Sky Force (27-33 loss). They aren't big losses, and they are to top 5 teams.
6. Agents of Chaos - Both clans were unranked before this challenge, and the result was 13-7, a record of almost double the wins to losses. Once a few more challenges come in, this "spike" will settle into the right position.

Now, I believe you are upset because your clan is 7th. Let's have a look at TSM's record:
34-26 over LoW, 22-18 over Immortal Assassins
Neither of those are particularly convincing wins, especially when you consider the rankings LoW and IA had at the time. You can't go saying "LoW is number one, we beat them 12 months ago, therefore we should be number one", same as THOTA can't go around saying "We're undefeated (against low-ranked clans) we should be number one". It's a ladder, the points you get are based on where your opponent was ranked at the time, and how convincing the win was.

It's all explained in the rules on the front page

[Seulessliathan]

Now, I believe you are upset because your clan is 7th. Let's have a look at TSM's record:
34-26 over LoW, 22-18 over Immortal Assassins
Neither of those are particularly convincing wins, especially when you consider the rankings LoW and IA had at the time.

can you give a definition for "convincing wins" ? beating a clan like THOTA, LOW or TSM 45:15?

i´m not really sure, but i guess LOW was number 3 and we were without any rank (was our first clan war, you already won 22:13 against Sky Force. So what is the problem about your rankings when we played our clan war?

let´s see the clan wars until we played:

Legends of War 24 Sky Force 13
THOTA 31 The Bushwhakers 11
THOTA 24 Knights of the Empire 16
Mythology 15 Generation One: The Clan 22
Generation One: The Clan 10 De Veroveraars der Lage Landen 11
The Untouchables 22 The Regulators 14
Imperial Dragoons 47 THOTA 53
EMPIRE 16 ++The Legion++ 15
The Untouchables 25 ++The Legion++ 14
Generation One: The Clan 23 Legion of The Damned 22
Generation One: The Clan 19 THOTA 41
Legends of War 26 The Spanking Monkeys 34

I guess the ladder was

1 THOTA
2 The Untouchables
3 LOW

don´t get me wrong, i guess we have to play more clan wars to get higher in this ladder, and 2 wins don´t make you a top 5 clan, but i don´t understand your argument about LOW ranking when we beat you.

we all know the system isn´t perfect, you can get high ranked when you beat new clans if they aren´t able to give you a good fight, and it would be better if each clan would have played 20+ clan wars, then we would have a better working ladder. And i think you know that there are other ladder systems discussed in CLA.

[e_i_pi]

Now, I believe you are upset because your clan is 7th. Let's have a look at TSM's record:
34-26 over LoW, 22-18 over Immortal Assassins
Neither of those are particularly convincing wins, especially when you consider the rankings LoW and IA had at the time.

can you give a definition for "convincing wins" ? beating a clan like THOTA, LOW or TSM 45:15?

I'll address this at the end, and you'll see what I mean.

i´m not really sure, but i guess LOW was number 3 and we were without any rank (was our first clan war, you already won 22:13 against Sky Force. So what is the problem about your rankings when we played our clan war?

There's no problem, but you've only played 2 games. Yes, you beat LoW, as well as IA. That's 2 challenges.

let´s see the clan wars until we played:

Legends of War 24 Sky Force 13
THOTA 31 The Bushwhakers 11
THOTA 24 Knights of the Empire 16
Mythology 15 Generation One: The Clan 22
Generation One: The Clan 10 De Veroveraars der Lage Landen 11
The Untouchables 22 The Regulators 14
Imperial Dragoons 47 THOTA 53
EMPIRE 16 ++The Legion++ 15
The Untouchables 25 ++The Legion++ 14
Generation One: The Clan 23 Legion of The Damned 22
Generation One: The Clan 19 THOTA 41
Legends of War 26 The Spanking Monkeys 34

I guess the ladder was

1 THOTA
2 The Untouchables
3 LOW

Thanks Seul... argue about a definition of convincing wins, then take a guess at rankings. Let me collate the scores up until that point, they will be in this format:
Clan1 Score - Score Clan2
Rankings

LoW 24 - 13 Sky Force

show

THOTA 31(22)-(22)11 Bushwhackers

show

THOTA 24 - 16 KoE

show

Mythology 15 - 22 G1

show

G1 10 - 11 DVL

show

TUC 22 - 14 Regulators

show

ID 47 - 53 THOTA

show

EMPIRE 16 - 15 The Legion

show

TUC 25 - 14 The Legion

show

G1 23 - 22 LotD

show

G1 19 - 41 THOTA

show

LoW 26 - 34 TSM

show

don´t get me wrong, i guess we have to play more clan wars to get higher in this ladder, and 2 wins don´t make you a top 5 clan, but i don´t understand your argument about LOW ranking when we beat you.

I'm not saying you didn't beat us, I'm saying it wasn't a convincing win... back to somantics though I suppose. So let's answer the "Convincing win" query you posed earlier...

Your win over us got you 1.1214 points
THOTA's win over G1 got them 2.8314 points
THOTA's win is more convincing than yours, and so gleaned more points.

we all know the system isn´t perfect, you can get high ranked when you beat new clans if they aren´t able to give you a good fight, and it would be better if each clan would have played 20+ clan wars, then we would have a better working ladder. And i think you know that there are other ladder systems discussed in CLA.

I think the biggest problem with the system is that it skews out dramatically with large win margins. IMO, the E() formula is screwy, because even at the stage of the league I showed above, if THOTA played BW in a 40 game challenge, they'd be expected to win 20.7 games. That's ridiculous.

Look at the scoreboard right now. LoW has 112.32 points, Porject Enigma has 94.83 points. We just beat them 25-5. If we play them now (when we're at opposite ends of the table) in another challenge of 30 games, we'd be expected to win 15.75 games to cover the spread - is that fair in any way whatsoever? This system will lead to farming of unskilled clans.

So yes Seul, I agree the system is broken, but I understand how the points come about and why the teams are ranked the way they are. It does need to be fixed, but if we reduce this to a "my clan is better than your clan, but we're lower, what gives" argument, that's not going to solve the problem. Let's try to be bipartisan and come up with a solution that is fair for all clans

[jpcloet]

I think you've shown what some of us have know for a while. That's why V2 has been worked on and now posted publicly for review. More tweaks are needed on it, but it is getting much closer to the expected results most have in their mind.

[Seulessliathan]

don´t get me wrong, i guess we have to play more clan wars to get higher in this ladder, and 2 wins don´t make you a top 5 clan, but i don´t understand your argument about LOW ranking when we beat you.

There's no problem, but you've only played 2 games. Yes, you beat LoW, as well as IA. That's 2 challenges.

did i say anything different? or did you miss to answer my question?

I guess the ladder was

1 THOTA
2 The Untouchables
3 LOW

Thanks Seul... argue about a definition of convincing wins, then take a guess at rankings.

I´m sorry, next time i will substitute the verb "guess" with the verb "calculated"

we all know the system isn´t perfect, you can get high ranked when you beat new clans if they aren´t able to give you a good fight, and it would be better if each clan would have played 20+ clan wars, then we would have a better working ladder. And i think you know that there are other ladder systems discussed in CLA.

I think the biggest problem with the system is that it skews out dramatically with large win margins. IMO, the E() formula is screwy, because even at the stage of the league I showed above, if THOTA played BW in a 40 game challenge, they'd be expected to win 20.7 games. That's ridiculous.

Look at the scoreboard right now. LoW has 112.32 points, Porject Enigma has 94.83 points. We just beat them 25-5. If we play them now (when we're at opposite ends of the table) in another challenge of 30 games, we'd be expected to win 15.75 games to cover the spread - is that fair in any way whatsoever? This system will lead to farming of unskilled clans.[/quote]

agreed

So yes Seul, I agree the system is broken, but I understand how the points come about and why the teams are ranked the way they are. It does need to be fixed, but if we reduce this to a "my clan is better than your clan, but we're lower, what gives" argument, that's not going to solve the problem. Let's try to be bipartisan and come up with a solution that is fair for all clans

i never said anything like

"my clan is better than your clan, but we're lower, what gives"

these are your words, not mine. i said:

don´t get me wrong, i guess we have to play more clan wars to get higher in this ladder, and 2 wins don´t make you a top 5 clan,...

I think we agree here that winning 80% of games in a clan war against a new clan might give a clan more points than it might be deserved, and i was talking about nothing else here.

[jiminski]

heheh i think the perceived winner of this debate should gain an extra 4.62* points using the new REP (Remedial Engagement Posting) ladder.

*I will tell you how i have arrived at the exact point system once the Monki's are leading the table.

[e_i_pi]

I'm not responding any more. The amount of selective memory, misinterpretation, and personal angst in this thread has overwhelmed me with a sense of ennui... congrats, you win by default, I'm asleep

[Incandenza]

Look at the scoreboard right now. LoW has 112.32 points, Porject Enigma has 94.83 points. We just beat them 25-5. If we play them now (when we're at opposite ends of the table) in another challenge of 30 games, we'd be expected to win 15.75 games to cover the spread - is that fair in any way whatsoever? This system will lead to farming of unskilled clans.

I would say that it's in everyone's interest to ensure that there's no farming. But there does need to be at least some small incentive for established clans to take on new ones, and some means of rapid advancement for clans that perform extraordinarily. Our tenuous clan system will rot if a new clan that kicks ass and takes names can't get within the top 5, say, with 6 months of steady campaigning. I don't know what the average active period of a CC clan is, but I can't imagine that it's particularly long, even if you correct for clans that were only barely active in the first place. Plus, new all-star clans create excitement, and should be encouraged.

But, of course, in order to do said ass-kicking and name-taking, said new clan would have to do at least some of it against established, reasonably-highly-ranked clans, otherwise we're back to the farming thing. It's a delicate balance, and I'm glad that people way better than me in math are on the case.

[Seulessliathan]

I'm not responding any more. The amount of selective memory, misinterpretation, and personal angst in this thread has overwhelmed me with a sense of ennui... congrats, you win by default, I'm asleep

you assumed that i just tried to put my clan higher in this ladder, this is just untrue, maybe you read my posts again. I know that a clan has to win more than 2 clan wars to be a top 5 clan, and i never said anything different, please quote me if i´m wrong. talking about selective memory: maybe you mixed me up with 1st and Scott?

I think we agree about the fact that farming is a problem in this ladder system, and we should work on this problem. Stop talking doesn´t solve this problem, so why not looking for solutions together? Or you prefer to leave it like that because you have the lead atm?

I personally don´t care about rankings in this ladder, each system will have his own flaws until each clan has finished about 20 or better 50 clan wars. Making a ladder with less than 100 results is an interesting experiment , but it can´t represent all the skills of all clans. I think we have a good picture of clan strengths in the cla league, although this isn´t perfect.

There are several interesting ideas to improve this ladder, so why not discussing them together? I have no problem with you or your clan e i pi and would like to know that you work on improvements for this ladder too.

Nobody has any angst (funny that you use german expressions here^^) , people just fight for their opinion like you do. Some agree with you, others not, but it´s just a big discussion with the goal to get the best possible ladder system. No need to take anything personal mate

[e_i_pi]

I'm not responding any more. The amount of selective memory, misinterpretation, and personal angst in this thread has overwhelmed me with a sense of ennui... congrats, you win by default, I'm asleep

you assumed that i just tried to put my clan higher in this ladder, this is just untrue, maybe you read my posts again. I know that a clan has to win more than 2 clan wars to be a top 5 clan, and i never said anything different, please quote me if i´m wrong. talking about selective memory: maybe you mixed me up with 1st and Scott?

I think we agree about the fact that farming is a problem in this ladder system, and we should work on this problem. Stop talking doesn´t solve this problem, so why not looking for solutions together? Or you prefer to leave it like that because you have the lead atm?

I personally don´t care about rankings in this ladder, each system will have his own flaws until each clan has finished about 20 or better 50 clan wars. Making a ladder with less than 100 results is an interesting experiment , but it can´t represent all the skills of all clans. I think we have a good picture of clan strengths in the cla league, although this isn´t perfect.

There are several interesting ideas to improve this ladder, so why not discussing them together? I have no problem with you or your clan e i pi and would like to know that you work on improvements for this ladder too.

Nobody has any angst (funny that you use german expressions here^^) , people just fight for their opinion like you do. Some agree with you, others not, but it´s just a big discussion with the goal to get the best possible ladder system. No need to take anything personal mate

Agreed, and you shouldn't take what I say personally. I'm not talking about you when I reference the previous things said in this thread. But yes, I do fall into the trap of mixing up individuals with their collective clan consciousness.

I just think that, as we pretty much all agree there is a problem, we shouldn't look at it in terms of how it affects our own clan, but how it affects all clans. I believe a lot of the talk that has been going back and forth has been from an insular perspective, rather than stepping outside the arena, and looking in. I'm not directing this towards you Seul, I think many people, if not everyone, is at least somewhat guilty of looking through their own eyes alone and not through other peoples.

Personally, I couldn't give a rats arse whether LoW are 1st, 2nd, 3rd, whatever, so long as the scoring and placement system is fair and equitable. If LoW drops to say 5th place, then I would hope that the same mechanic that caused that drop could also work for us, and mean we could recapture a top-flight spot. And I think every clan would want that. As has been said in this thread, and the new thread - the integrity of incentive needs to be retained above all else. There has to be a reason why any clan, wherever they are placed, would play any other clan. A clan should not be afraid of playing another clan because of skewed scoring or backlash from the community. It's imperative to keep unfair scoring and, in particular, farming out the clan ladder system.

[Scott-Land]

Looking at the top 6 of the ladder--

1 Legends of War 112.32 Points 119-72 62% With a loss, not sure how they are ahead of THOTA.
2 THOTA 111.27 Points 190-112 63% Undefeated in 5 challenges but yet are #2.
3 EMPIRE 107.56 Points 100-71 58% 5-0 Defeated ID... good ranking.
4 Sky Force 106.09 Points 132-123 52% 3-3They've beat a clan that is ranked 31 of 31, 30 of 30 and a clan that has lost 4 of 9 challenges.
5 ++The Legion++ 105.43 Points 148-135 52% -- No disrespect to Legion but the ranking here is laughable. 5-4 weak wins with the exception of TBH.
6 Agents Of Chaos 102.25 Points 13-7 65% They defeated the bottom team of the ladder (31) Water's Fury 91.35 Points

Look, I think most people agree that the way the ladder works isn't the best, but there are reasonable explanations for all of the scores above, given the rules of scoring.

1. LoW - We were just behind THOTA until our most recent win. We got a lot of points from that as the team were unranked and so got the automatic 100 point ranking - keep in mind we won 25-5, we won 5 games for every 1 that they won. It's the same as someone playing a New Recruit in 1v1 - look at how many games Maxatstuy won against New Recruits... the win rate was around 95-100%, yet he got 5 points per game with a potential loss of 80 points. Now, we didn't go looking for a new clan to play, they challenged us - if they had challenged TSM, would you have turned them down? Besides, if you're that worried about points, why don't you play them, see if you can manage an 83% win rate.
2. THOTA - THOTA have played 3 clans that were unranked, the same thing that caused uproar at LoW's win against Project Enigma. Also, keep in mind that LoWs opponents have an average ladder rank of 15, whereas THOTA's have an average ladder rank of 22 - that's almost 3/4 of the way down the ladder.
3. EMPIRE - Average opponent is 18th in the league, they are 5 from 5. So they're undefeated, but playing opposition that average below middling skill. It's reasonable that they're up the top but not in top spot.
4. Sky Force - Yes, they've beaten the clans coming last and second last, but they've also beaten the clan coming 5th, and 2 of their losses are against 10th place and 1st place.
5. +++The Legion+++ - 5 weak wins, and you quote TBH as being their best one? TBH are the 4th lowest clan that they've beaten. Eternal Empire and Order of Odin are ranked higher than TBH, and I believe TUC were higher at the time. TBH are 23rd/31 teams. The Legions losses are against EMPIRE (15-16 loss) and Sky Force (27-33 loss). They aren't big losses, and they are to top 5 teams.
6. Agents of Chaos - Both clans were unranked before this challenge, and the result was 13-7, a record of almost double the wins to losses. Once a few more challenges come in, this "spike" will settle into the right position.

Now, I believe you are upset because your clan is 7th. Let's have a look at TSM's record:
34-26 over LoW, 22-18 over Immortal Assassins
Neither of those are particularly convincing wins, especially when you consider the rankings LoW and IA had at the time. You can't go saying "LoW is number one, we beat them 12 months ago, therefore we should be number one", same as THOTA can't go around saying "We're undefeated (against low-ranked clans) we should be number one". It's a ladder, the points you get are based on where your opponent was ranked at the time, and how convincing the win was.

It's all explained in the rules on the front page

Who said I was upset? I don't need a ladder to know that LoW is no match for TSM. We went up against you 3 times and 3 times we won unconvincingly.

I'm merely stating the flaws, imo, of the ladder. Please point to where I said we should be higher?

[waseemalim]

Can you guys put these efforts into the new ladder discussions?

[Seulessliathan]

Can you guys put these efforts into the new ladder discussions?

hehe, we just try to get together for a normal discussion round mate i think this is done now, everybody sees that we all have the same interest: a good working ladder system. (sometimes it´s necessary to check if others have still the same goal or just want to sing their own hymne here^^ ) Check is done, so we can be back in action.

I will read about the new system when i´m less busy, it seems to have interesting ideas.

[Big Whiskey]

Can we get a update here?