CL8 Discussion Area

[Donelladan]

Clans play each other within their divisions to determine division winners and which clans get promoted or relegated.

Both divisions play a double round robin, i.e., each clan plays each other twice in the same round, with 8 home and 8 away games. Each set of 8 games is considered a match.

Would it be possible to think about changing this to something similar than in the RL ?
I've read people speaking about that change somewhere during the CL7.
In the RL 1 match = home + away. I think it would be much better to have the same thing here. It make sense since in a clan war the winner is the one winning on the home + away results.Also it reduces the luck factor since there is more game involved. Very often there is a couple of games being lost or won by just pure luck, and when you only need 5 games to win ( in a 8 games match) losing 2 games because of luck already has a huge influence on the result. If the match were made of 16 games, this luck factor would be less.

The following settings are allowed for maximum 3 home games per round:

Spoils: Zombie
Reinforcements: Parachute & None (with "None”, round limit optional)
Special Gameplay: Trench Warfare (round limit optional)

Seriously what is so special with trench warfare that is has to be limited to maximum 3 home games per round ?
This is no-sense.
To me this rule was introduced in the first place because "old" players did not know how to play this setting. Same goes for the restriction on the other settings currently, I see no reason why any of them should be restricted. Some players have advantage playing escalating, unlimited or adjacent because they are better at it than others, since they have more experience.
Why not allowing players with less experience on those setting to take a home advantage by playing parachute or no fort if they are better at it ?
It seems to me this kind of restriction only help old clans to remains on top of news clans.

But speaking of trench only, trench have been here since long enough, there is no reason to restrict it. We should definitely get rid of this restriction.
The first game on trench was 10 april 2012 !

[IcePack]

You should probably contact momo33 your CDF rep and ask him why he didn't bring this up during the planning stages instead of during sign ups.
At this point however its a little late to be considered for CL8.

Edit: The CL8 discussion thread has been open / ongoing in CDF since June

[CL8] Discussion Thread by Lindax » Tue May 31, 2016 6:13 am

Clans play each other within their divisions to determine division winners and which clans get promoted or relegated.

Both divisions play a double round robin, i.e., each clan plays each other twice in the same round, with 8 home and 8 away games. Each set of 8 games is considered a match.

Would it be possible to think about changing this to something similar than in the RL ?
I've read people speaking about that change somewhere during the CL7.
In the RL 1 match = home + away. I think it would be much better to have the same thing here. It make sense since in a clan war the winner is the one winning on the home + away results.Also it reduces the luck factor since there is more game involved. Very often there is a couple of games being lost or won by just pure luck, and when you only need 5 games to win ( in a 8 games match) losing 2 games because of luck already has a huge influence on the result. If the match were made of 16 games, this luck factor would be less.

The following settings are allowed for maximum 3 home games per round:

Spoils: Zombie
Reinforcements: Parachute & None (with "None”, round limit optional)
Special Gameplay: Trench Warfare (round limit optional)

Seriously what is so special with trench warfare that is has to be limited to maximum 3 home games per round ?
This is no-sense.
To me this rule was introduced in the first place because "old" players did not know how to play this setting. Same goes for the restriction on the other settings currently, I see no reason why any of them should be restricted. Some players have advantage playing escalating, unlimited or adjacent because they are better at it than others, since they have more experience.
Why not allowing players with less experience on those setting to take a home advantage by playing parachute or no fort if they are better at it ?
It seems to me this kind of restriction only help old clans to remains on top of news clans.

But speaking of trench only, trench have been here since long enough, there is no reason to restrict it. We should definitely get rid of this restriction.
The first game on trench was 10 april 2012 !

[Donelladan]

Disclaimer:

• The format and the rules are subject to change if deemed appropriate by the TO and/or the CD Team.

=> I am assuming it is not too late.


I have been told settings weren't discussed, only promotion/relegation and infractions.

Also Momo cannot read my mind. Maybe stop having all clans discussions behind closed doors and other will be able to talk about it as well.

Would you have me believe you copy past everything which is being said in the CDF forum so that everyone in FALL can comment ?

Anyway, my points are still valid. And I already asked for that change for trench when CL7 started.

viewtopic.php?f=443&t=214238&p=4712115&hilit=trench#p4712115

[IcePack]

Don,
As shown above the discussion thread has been opened since May 31st.
We brought up promo/rel and infractions as stuff we as CD's wanted to talk to the community about but CDF rep are welcome to bring up their own issues.

He doesn't need to read your mind, you can contact him and let him know what you want brought up & discussed. No I do not copy & paste everything for FALL, but they talk to me about what they like and dislike about the events and I represent those thoughts in the CDF as their rep. And many of them only wanted to be asked about "big things" so they aren't constantly asked about items, if they wanted to be involved in every little detail they would have volunteered to be the CDF contact.

Anyway, valid or not we have finalized the details and are taking sign ups. This isn't the appropriate time or place to make changes. I suggest you contact momo and have him bring up your concerns during the next discussion.

Let's keep this for sign ups only please.

Cheers
IcePack

Disclaimer:

• The format and the rules are subject to change if deemed appropriate by the TO and/or the CD Team.

=> I am assuming it is not too late.
I have been told settings weren't discussed, only promotion/relegation and infractions.Also Momo cannot read my mind. Maybe stop having all clans discussions behind closed doors and other will be able to talk about it as well.
Would you have me believe you copy past everything which is being said in the CDF forum so that everyone in FALL can comment ?
Anyway, my points are still valid. And I already asked for that change in the trench when CL7 started.

http://www.conquerclub.com/forum/viewto ... h#p4712115

[Donelladan]

Well I am not expecting that the scoring system will be changed. I fully understand it's an heavy change that should be discuss more.
But I am still saying it so it might be considered for the next edition.

The restriction on trench warfare on the other hand, it's a minor issue, the TO could decide to remove it. It wouldn't change much and has no reason to be in the first place.
Anyway it's very unlikely someone send a set with 8 trench game, just like I have never seen a set with 8 unlimited games.
It's only annoying to have to count to check with don't go over the limit by one game by mistake, especially since there is no reason to restrict trench while most other settings are not restricted.

[IcePack]

The scoring would need to be discussed in CDF before CL9.

Our goal is to stablize the events and not be constantly changing things here and there. We want a regular, uniform event year to year.
That being said, changes can be made through the appropriate methods and times. Once we get into sign ups, we have committed to the guidelines and set ups for the years event and do not plan to make changes afterwards.

CC6 increased the trench limit from 20% to 50% after a discussion in the CDF. We have 3/8 or 37.5% limit in CL8. The limit will not be lifted completely without CDF discussions taking place, which is why we encourage everyone to discuss with their CDF rep PRIOR to sign ups being posted changes they would like to see. Not complain about it afterwards.

We are open to the possibility of changing or lifting the trench limits after CL8 after a discussion on the matter has taken place in the CDF with clans representatives. But for now, with sign ups posted we do not plan to make any changes at this time.

Thanks,
IcePack

Well I am not expecting that the scoring system will be changed. I fully understand it's an heavy change that should be discuss more. But I am still saying it so it might be considered for the next edition.

The restriction on trench warfare on the other hand, it's a minor issue, the TO could decide to remove it. It wouldn't change much and has no reason to be in the first place.
Anyway it's very unlikely someone send a set with 8 trench game, just like I have never seen a set with 8 unlimited games.
It's only annoying to have to count to check with don't go over the limit by one game by mistake, especially since there is no reason to restrict trench while most other settings are not restricted.

[Swifte]

What Ice means is he's already got his spreadsheets filled with exactly 3 trench games for every round, and he doesn't want to have to go through and redo all his hard work.

[IcePack]

What Ice means is he's already got his spreadsheets filled with exactly 3 trench games for every round, and he doesn't want to have to go through and redo all his hard work.

Hahaha if only that were true, I'm behind this year and I haven't even started creating my CL8 spreadsheets

[rockfist]

It'll come down to the last round and someone will send a Hive Trencher...just wait...and for the record I love Hive Trenchers, but they are always best sent early.

[BIG_John]

Nice rockfist! You love Hive trenchers but you want the teams to throw them out early so they can't use them in the end lol! Nice strategy bud!

[Kexor]

Also Momo cannot read my mind. Maybe stop having all clans discussions behind closed doors and other will be able to talk about it as well.

Agree 100% with you. I understand the need to have the votes in private so all clans are represented equally, but a large part of the discussions should be held in public to gather more opinions and generate more ideas. The current system is simply not satisfactory.

[benga]

Also Momo cannot read my mind. Maybe stop having all clans discussions behind closed doors and other will be able to talk about it as well.

Agree 100% with you. I understand the need to have the votes in private so all clans are represented equally, but a large part of the discussions should be held in public to gather more opinions and generate more ideas. The current system is simply not satisfactory.

Don't worry we haven't had a discussion in CDF in ages, everything is decided by CDs. The purpose of that group is for eligibilty for clan events.

[Donelladan]

Also Momo cannot read my mind. Maybe stop having all clans discussions behind closed doors and other will be able to talk about it as well.

Agree 100% with you. I understand the need to have the votes in private so all clans are represented equally, but a large part of the discussions should be held in public to gather more opinions and generate more ideas. The current system is simply not satisfactory.

Don't worry we haven't had a discussion in CDF in ages, everything is decided by CDs. The purpose of that group is for eligibilty for clan events.

Well that makes me worry much more......

Back to my favorite topic - everyone in favor of trench being unlimited next war ?

[Momo33]

Also Momo cannot read my mind. Maybe stop having all clans discussions behind closed doors and other will be able to talk about it as well.

Agree 100% with you. I understand the need to have the votes in private so all clans are represented equally, but a large part of the discussions should be held in public to gather more opinions and generate more ideas. The current system is simply not satisfactory.

Don't worry we haven't had a discussion in CDF in ages, everything is decided by CDs. The purpose of that group is for eligibilty for clan events.

Well that makes me worry much more......

Back to my favorite topic - everyone in favor of trench being unlimited next war ?

Honestly I kind of agree with everything that has been said here. In Cd and Friends, Lindax came with a topic about CL8 May 31st with 2 subjects to discuss. How to handle the infractions and the promotion/relegation format. At the end of this "discussion" we had a vote and the decision taken by the CDs wasn't in line with the result of the vote. At the end of this, I had a discussion with Lindax about the purpose of the CD and friends because I just don't understand what is the purpose of this forum. Should I have talked about trench? Yes probably, that's my error, but CD and friends is becoming more and more a place where CD announce their decision without any real discussion, so yes I don't really pay much attention to what's going on there and I am sure that I am not the only one to have this feeling!

[Lindax]

For the record: Yes, there was a discussion in CDF and no, there was no poll or vote.

And yes, discussions in CDF are exactly where you bring up anything related with the topic, in this case CL8.

One reason why CDF doesn't seem to work very well is because nobody uses it, except the CDs. CDF is the place where your can post if your clan wants more Trench games. CDF is the place where you can post and discuss anything your clan would like to see changed. And you don't have to wait for the CDs to open up a topic.

Trench, for example: During CL7 we had the same restriction of 3 out of 8 games. 26 Clans participated and more than 600 players were involved. Yet nobody thought of bringing up Trench games. The only conclusion can be that everybody is happy with the 3 out of 8 restriction. If nobody uses CDF to voice their clan's opinion, we don't know about it and we won't change it.

Lx

[Momo33]

For the record: Yes, there was a discussion in CDF and no, there was no poll or vote.
Lx

Honestly if you believe that there was no vote, I don't know what to add Lindax. I count 16 clans that voted (including IcePack and Keefie, both CDs, see below for the complete list of clans that voted) on a proposition you made with options for us to decide (well, now I see that we didn't have to decide. It was just 4 options you were considering implementing without regards to what we would say and that's why I don't pay much attention to this forum anymore. I don't feel included at all in the decisions that are being made.)

1- EGAD
2- ID
3- PACK
4- TOP
5- RET
6- ATL
7- OSA
8- HH
9- LHDD
10- GON
11- FISO
12- AFOS
13- SoH
14- S&M
15- ATN
16- FALL

[Lindax]

It's not a matter of believing Momo. I never called for a vote. If I had, I would have added a poll.

People just started posting as if they were voting, that doesn't make it a vote.

As for your other remarks: I wouldn't open a discussion thread if I wouldn't listen. And I did. Based on the discussion I changed the way infractions will be dealt with.

As for the other issue, a play-off: There was hardly an overwhelming majority in favor, nor did I hear any valid arguments as to why a play-off would be beneficial to the tournament and all involved. Just because it did not get implemented doesn't mean it wasn't considered. Or do you only feel included in a decision if it goes your way?

No matter how hard I listened, I did not hear any issues about settings coming up....

Lx

For the record: Yes, there was a discussion in CDF and no, there was no poll or vote.
Lx

Honestly if you believe that there was no vote, I don't know what to add Lindax. I count 16 clans that voted (including IcePack and Keefie, both CDs, see below for the complete list of clans that voted) on a proposition you made with options for us to decide (well, now I see that we didn't have to decide. It was just 4 options you were considering implementing without regards to what we would say and that's why I don't pay much attention to this forum anymore. I don't feel included at all in the decisions that are being made.)

1- EGAD
2- ID
3- PACK
4- TOP
5- RET
6- ATL
7- OSA
8- HH
9- LHDD
10- GON
11- FISO
12- AFOS
13- SoH
14- S&M
15- ATN
16- FALL

[Vid_FISO]

It's not a matter of believing Momo. I never called for a vote. If I had, I would have added a poll.

People just started posting as if they were voting, that doesn't make it a vote.

As for your other remarks: I wouldn't open a discussion thread if I wouldn't listen. And I did. Based on the discussion I changed the way infractions will be dealt with.

As for the other issue, a play-off: There was hardly an overwhelming majority in favor, nor did I hear any valid arguments as to why a play-off would be beneficial to the tournament and all involved. Just because it did not get implemented doesn't mean it wasn't considered. Or do you only feel included in a decision if it goes your way?

No matter how hard I listened, I did not hear any issues about settings coming up....

Lx

Maybe you should reread the thread?

You set the tone and main items for discussion with your opening post which resulted in the two topics you put forward being discussed.

You then condensed the opinions being given into options along with how many supporters each option had, you made it a vote by doing so.

[Kexor]

One reason why CDF doesn't seem to work very well is because nobody uses it, except the CDs. CDF is the place where your can post if your clan wants more Trench games. CDF is the place where you can post and discuss anything your clan would like to see changed. And you don't have to wait for the CDs to open up a topic.

If the CDF doesn't work well, why not try to adapt and take a more open approach with the discussions?

Let's take this very example:

Trench, for example: During CL7 we had the same restriction of 3 out of 8 games. 26 Clans participated and more than 600 players were involved. Yet nobody thought of bringing up Trench games. The only conclusion can be that everybody is happy with the 3 out of 8 restriction. If nobody uses CDF to voice their clan's opinion, we don't know about it and we won't change it.

When Doc (our representative) asked in our forums if we had any issues we wanted to push forward I didn't think of it. But if the thread was open in the first place then Donelladan would be able to post his suggestion and I would be able to voice my support. Then if you needed a formal vote you could make that in the private forums to follow 1 clan 1 vote principle.

[Momo33]

It's not a matter of believing Momo. I never called for a vote. If I had, I would have added a poll.

People just started posting as if they were voting, that doesn't make it a vote.

As for your other remarks: I wouldn't open a discussion thread if I wouldn't listen. And I did. Based on the discussion I changed the way infractions will be dealt with.

As for the other issue, a play-off: There was hardly an overwhelming majority in favor, nor did I hear any valid arguments as to why a play-off would be beneficial to the tournament and all involved. Just because it did not get implemented doesn't mean it wasn't considered. Or do you only feel included in a decision if it goes your way?

No matter how hard I listened, I did not hear any issues about settings coming up....

Lx

It's not because you didn't called for a vote that there wasn't one. You see, that is exactly why I don't believe in that forum anymore. When a lot of clan give their opinion and come up with a vote on propositions you made (by telling us that you wanted our opinion on it), you just tell us that the vote is not valid because you didn't called for it.

Honestly I would really like to hear from Keefie and IcePack here because they also VOTED on this proposition. Where they thinking that this wasn't a vote?

As I already said in cd and friends, it's not that you don't take good decisions Lindax, it's just that I don't like the way the decisions are taken. You are letting us believe that we have something to say in the decisions by creating the CD and friends, but I realize (and I am sure that I am not the only one) that we don't have a single word to say in those decisions. When we vote, all you have to say is that you didn't call for a vote. I don't know if I'll come back here to participate anymore because I don't see where this is going...

[IcePack]

I'm at work, but I'll be posting later in response to some of the comments / questions when I'm off.

[Lindax]

I'm at work, but I'll be posting later in response to some of the comments / questions when I'm off.

Yes please. Maybe you can clarify things better than I can. People don't seem to know what a vote is, don't seem to understand what kind of tool CDF is and ultimately blame us for forgetting to bring up any issues they find important.

Lx

[IcePack]

Also Momo cannot read my mind. Maybe stop having all clans discussions behind closed doors and other will be able to talk about it as well.

Agree 100% with you. I understand the need to have the votes in private so all clans are represented equally, but a large part of the discussions should be held in public to gather more opinions and generate more ideas. The current system is simply not satisfactory.

Nobody is stopping you or others from discussing anything in the public clan area. You can discuss whatever you like to your hearts content, but when it comes time to discuss events the "official" discussion will be within CDF so that it can be organized, allow every clan to speak without being drowned out, etc. CDF Reps are free to use the public discussions to gather ideas, and take them back to the CDF area for further official considerations etc. We just aren't able to track every thread / idea relating to each event and need to organize that official discussion in a specific and organized way.

The key being that they get involved and bring things to the discussion, we will try to facilitate the discussion and bring points up that we've noticed and possibly could improve on but we don't know what clan leaders / clans want without it being shared when we discuss the topics at hand.

Example - donelladan posted a thread regarding trench prior to the CC6. That made its way through the CDF system and the trench limits were changed. But a year later, nobody remembers that thread unless a clan / clan rep wants the change and reminds us and starts the discussion. Nobody spoke up, nothing was changed for CL8. Sign ups are not the appropriate times to be changing things around.

Don't worry we haven't had a discussion in CDF in ages, everything is decided by CDs. The purpose of that group is for eligibilty for clan events.

That really is untrue, CDF is what CDF Reps make of it. But to say we haven't had any discussions in ages, and everything is decided by CD's is completely false benga. CDF voted in the Promotion / Relegation changes to CL7, it had relevant discussions on Map Use restrictions for CL6, Trench changes discussion for CC6, settings like Zombie and No Fort changes for CC5, amongst quite a number of other things not event related. CDF also discussed / was used to determine through CDF that Clans did not want changes after sign ups were posted for events even if it was "small" changes to avoid confusion and arguments. This is only a small highlight of the discussions we've had over the past few events, there's been quite a few others as well in that time frame.

CDF Reps CAN initiate change. Its happened in the past, and will happen in the future. We (the CD Team) and I (IcePack) are listening. But part of our job is to also evaluate other factors that some Clan Leaders / CDF Reps do not take into consideration. Things like: What direction have we been given by the site? What direction have we been given by CDF reps in the past? Do these changes match with the Clan areas policys & procedures? We have to weigh more than simple votes and opinions, though we do put much weight into those opinions etc. I'll touch more on this later.

Well that makes me worry much more......

Back to my favorite topic - everyone in favor of trench being unlimited next war ?

See above, and make sure your CDF Rep brings it up for the next go around.

Honestly I kind of agree with everything that has been said here. In Cd and Friends, Lindax came with a topic about CL8 May 31st with 2 subjects to discuss. How to handle the infractions and the promotion/relegation format. At the end of this "discussion" we had a vote and the decision taken by the CDs wasn't in line with the result of the vote. At the end of this, I had a discussion with Lindax about the purpose of the CD and friends because I just don't understand what is the purpose of this forum. Should I have talked about trench? Yes probably, that's my error, but CD and friends is becoming more and more a place where CD announce their decision without any real discussion, so yes I don't really pay much attention to what's going on there and I am sure that I am not the only one to have this feeling!

We brought two items to the discussion, that is correct. Thats because we didn't want to post "so what is everyones thoughts / opinions on changes" and hear crickets for 4 weeks until somebody spoke up. It wasn't by any means "restricted" to those two topics, and others could have brought more topics to discussion if they wanted to (and I believe one or two did). This was to get the discussion started, give something people to think about and discuss while they thought of the other issues they wanted to bring to the table. But it is not just us "announcing" anything and ignoring what is said.

In fact using CL8 as an example, I had a concern with the infractions (because it doesn't line up with the Clan Area's overall policies in regards to forfeits) but after receiving the feedback that was strongly in favor of that infraction set up, we decided that it was clear the CDF Reps had made their opinions and feedback known (including reasons why) and the event rules were adjusted accordingly and I decided that it meant the POLICY might not be in line with what Clans want, and would discuss the policy later in the future (allowing the CL8 to continue unimpeded, with the rules clans wanted and requested) prior to the policy being discussed / changed.

Honestly if you believe that there was no vote, I don't know what to add Lindax. I count 16 clans that voted (including IcePack and Keefie, both CDs, see below for the complete list of clans that voted) on a proposition you made with options for us to decide (well, now I see that we didn't have to decide. It was just 4 options you were considering implementing without regards to what we would say and that's why I don't pay much attention to this forum anymore. I don't feel included at all in the decisions that are being made.)

Of the four options listed, Lindax was clear when it was posted that one or two of those were unlikely to accepted. Some clans chose to select them anyway to let their preference be known, while others selected from the other remaining options.

It's not because you didn't called for a vote that there wasn't one. You see, that is exactly why I don't believe in that forum anymore. When a lot of clan give their opinion and come up with a vote on propositions you made (by telling us that you wanted our opinion on it), you just tell us that the vote is not valid because you didn't called for it.

Honestly I would really like to hear from Keefie and IcePack here because they also VOTED on this proposition. Where they thinking that this wasn't a vote?

As I already said in cd and friends, it's not that you don't take good decisions Lindax, it's just that I don't like the way the decisions are taken. You are letting us believe that we have something to say in the decisions by creating the CD and friends, but I realize (and I am sure that I am not the only one) that we don't have a single word to say in those decisions. When we vote, all you have to say is that you didn't call for a vote. I don't know if I'll come back here to participate anymore because I don't see where this is going...

As I said above, clans have given their opinion on topics in the past and we've held official votes over bigger things like the promotion / relegation being changed for CL6/CL7. There have been changes made after feedback received. This year, with CL8 there was one item that received very strong support amongst clans that shared their opinions (on infractions). The other topic the CD's raised (play off) received a lot of support but not as much, and it goes against some of the structures and goals we have set in place for events. We discussed the feedback and had extensive internal debate about it on both sides, and opted to keep the original structure for CL8 and review the topic again once we have two years of data to view.

As far as my / FALL's feedback in the CDF discussion, I guess I had the benefit of knowing it wasn't an official vote ahead of time. I was sharing my / our clans view and didn't have anything additional to add to the discussion, so just stated it so that other clans knew our stance on the topics.

We do take all the feedback & discussion into consideration, and it has changed what we do / what we plan to do in the past and currently for CL8. I can't promise EVERY thing proposed or discussed will get implimented based on the issues and conditions we have to work with / around that I outlined above, but we also want to try making sure those opinions are heard prior to making any decisions.

If we need to adjust how we communicate, come to decisions, or collect that in order to make improvements on the way the decisions are taken (as you described it) then I will see what I can do in order to improve that. I know there were a few comments / feedbacks received after in the CDF I made some notes on in order to help facilitate future discussions.

As I said the big sticking point in CDF was the playoff item, and I don't know if we properly communicated our intention (in reviewing it again next year after having two years of data) instead of just announcing that it was staying in the current form. That was something we could have done better, and a note I made for myself in the future.

I hope this helps clarify / answer some of the issues and critiques, and if there is something we can do better I'm always looking for feedback.
Thanks,
IcePack

[Donelladan]

Thanks IcePack to try to explain everything.


You said

We brought two items to the discussion, that is correct. Thats because we didn't want to post "so what is everyones thoughts / opinions on changes" and hear crickets for 4 weeks until somebody spoke up.

when it comes time to discuss events the "official" discussion will be within CDF so that it can be organized, allow every clan to speak without being drowned out

I am just thinking those two sentence are in contradiction.
On one hand you have a private forum to discuss thing to make discussion easier. On the other hand you said no one say anything in this forum.
Which is more or less what Lindax seems to think as well :

One reason why CDF doesn't seem to work very well is because nobody uses it, except the CDs. CDF is the place where your can post if your clan wants more Trench games. CDF is the place where you can post and discuss anything your clan would like to see changed. And you don't have to wait for the CDs to open up a topic.

If the CDF doesn't work well, why not try to adapt and take a more open approach with the discussions?

I highly doubt, being given the amount of discussion in the public clan forum in general, that having public debate would be a problem.
Can what Kexor suggested be taken into consideration ? Is it possible that you start having public debate ?

Momo did in the past ask us ( LHDD) our opinions on some matter that was discussed in the CDF, but we don't have the full discussion to judge. So we only say we agree or we disagree but can't really argue about it. It really doesn't work for me.

I would love to have public debate, and then make the vote internally so that it's only 1 vote per clan. ( also make the vote after public debate happened ofc )

Alternative option that would be really cool, is that you keep debating/voting everything in the CDF, but make the CDF visible for everyone. Can you allow every clan members to read CDF but allowing only clan rep to post in it ? That would totally solve the problem to me.

[rockfist]

Just a side note: I (and likely others) have been reading this. At this point I am just following along. If I feel like I have something constructive to add to the debate I will.
I point that out merely to show that "the clan world" is not uninterested in this or ignoring it.

I think LHDD can well surmise my thoughts on Trench.