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Limit Maps Available for New Players [Done]

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Limit Maps Available for New Players [Done]

Postby PLAYER57832 on Tue Aug 12, 2008 8:11 am

danalan wrote:Concise:

Limit access to certain more difficult maps to players who have earned a promotion.

Details:

Could we limit the selection of maps available for new players, much as we limit the types of games in which they may participate?

Some maps are better suited to introduce a player to the game, while some are complex, long-running, require patient strategy, or otherwise are not as well suited to new players. The Classic, Iberia, Portugal, and many other maps are excellent examples of straight-forward, interesting maps to learn the game; while D-Day: Omaha Beach!, Napoleon, Valley of the Kings, and many others are not easily learned. Similarly, Circus Maximus seems simple, but requires great patience and strategy.


Benefits:

This would both improve gameplay on those more difficult maps, and also speed play, as the problem of deadbeating newbies wouldn't exist on those maps. Making your first promotion would also have more tangible effects -- a whole range of new, interesting maps would open up for you.



First you are confusing "harder" with "differant". When I started out, I BEGAN by playing Age of Merchant.. and gained in rank rather quickly just because the strategy is not like the others. I was able to beat older players who did not bother to read the legend, etc. Also, people just have different "tastes". Some people LIKE the more complicated maps right off and find the standard Risk "boring".

I DO think new players should be excluded from Fog of War. There is no real "benefit" to newer players to play with fog. BUT, when it comes to the maps and Assassin, I think a "pop up" warning is better and more appropriate. Something like "warning, this map has unusual features" or "this is an Assassin game" be sure to READ the instructions BEFORE playing! A link might be provided to a list of "recommended" beginning maps.

In fact, I would like to see that warning posted the first time ANYONE plays Assassin game type.. It seems the vast majority of even experienced players goof the first time or two on that one!

Which brings it to the biggest issue. We really need more detailed instructions. Something that explains Assassin better and that gives a little guidance on what to expect in various maps. Not full details or anything ... folks can peruse the strategy section for that (though a clearer mention of that forum in the instructions might help), BUT something that says "these maps play more or less like standard Risk". These maps have bombardment. Bombardment means you attack, but do not conquer. The last army turns nuetral. These maps have varying bonuses.... etc.
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Re: Limit Maps Available for New Players

Postby jiminski on Tue Aug 12, 2008 9:36 am

PLAYER57832 wrote:
danalan wrote:Concise:

Limit access to certain more difficult maps to players who have earned a promotion.

Details:

Could we limit the selection of maps available for new players, much as we limit the types of games in which they may participate?

Some maps are better suited to introduce a player to the game, while some are complex, long-running, require patient strategy, or otherwise are not as well suited to new players. The Classic, Iberia, Portugal, and many other maps are excellent examples of straight-forward, interesting maps to learn the game; while D-Day: Omaha Beach!, Napoleon, Valley of the Kings, and many others are not easily learned. Similarly, Circus Maximus seems simple, but requires great patience and strategy.


Benefits:

This would both improve gameplay on those more difficult maps, and also speed play, as the problem of deadbeating newbies wouldn't exist on those maps. Making your first promotion would also have more tangible effects -- a whole range of new, interesting maps would open up for you.



First you are confusing "harder" with "differant". When I started out, I BEGAN by playing Age of Merchant.. and gained in rank rather quickly just because the strategy is not like the others. I was able to beat older players who did not bother to read the legend, etc. Also, people just have different "tastes". Some people LIKE the more complicated maps right off and find the standard Risk "boring".

I DO think new players should be excluded from Fog of War. There is no real "benefit" to newer players to play with fog. BUT, when it comes to the maps and Assassin, I think a "pop up" warning is better and more appropriate. Something like "warning, this map has unusual features" or "this is an Assassin game" be sure to READ the instructions BEFORE playing! A link might be provided to a list of "recommended" beginning maps.

In fact, I would like to see that warning posted the first time ANYONE plays Assassin game type.. It seems the vast majority of even experienced players goof the first time or two on that one!

Which brings it to the biggest issue. We really need more detailed instructions. Something that explains Assassin better and that gives a little guidance on what to expect in various maps. Not full details or anything ... folks can peruse the strategy section for that (though a clearer mention of that forum in the instructions might help), BUT something that says "these maps play more or less like standard Risk". These maps have bombardment. Bombardment means you attack, but do not conquer. The last army turns nuetral. These maps have varying bonuses.... etc.


I don't think he is mixing 'harder' and 'different'. The 'Age of' maps are obviously more complex than straight continent bonus maps.

however i am not certain about this suggestion; sometimes getting a good whooping from a person who knows the nuances of the map or simply bothered to read the bonus instructions, is the best way to learn.

Personally i prefer straightforward maps, so this is not about protecting veterans ability to Noob-Farm .. but i think that New players do deserve the right to be whooped and to learn the hard way.

However, a limit of maps for a short period as Fable suggested (first 4 games perhaps)
may offer a little protection and encouragement to return.
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Re: Limit Maps Available for New Players

Postby Jeff Hardy on Tue Aug 12, 2008 11:56 am

Androidz wrote:I like the suggestion and got be thinking later when we lots of more maps alivable.


COuldent be set up as each promotion give you access to more maps? That would be cool, a gift for promotion.


good idea
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Re: Limit Maps Available for New Players

Postby jiminski on Tue Aug 12, 2008 11:59 am

Jeff Hardy wrote:
Androidz wrote:I like the suggestion and got be thinking later when we lots of more maps alivable.


COuldent be set up as each promotion give you access to more maps? That would be cool, a gift for promotion.


good idea



you can't do that... people pay the same $25 and to say that a player with less talent will never be able to play all the maps is a kick in the teeth.
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Re: Limit Maps Available for New Players

Postby danalan on Fri Aug 15, 2008 11:42 am

Anybody else want to discuss this idea? I think it would seriously reduce deadbeating, which makes it worth trying in any case. Any other suggestions for the map list?
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Re: Limit Maps Available for New Players

Postby danalan on Mon Aug 25, 2008 9:13 pm

The list of maps new players may choose from, updated with the recent additions (new additions at beginning of list):

Egypt: Lower
High Seas
Iceland
Classic
Africa
Age of Realms 1
Alexanders Empire
Ancient Greece
Arctic
Asia
Australia
BeNeLux
Brazil
British Isles
Cairns Coral Coast
Canada
Caribbean Islands
CCU
Discworld
Europe
Feudal War
France
Germany
Greater China
Hong Kong
Iberia
Indochina
Ireland
Italy
Malta
Middle Earth
Middle East
Midkemdil
Mongol Empire
Montreal
Netherlands
North America
Philippines
Portugal
Puget Sound
San Francisco
Scotland
South America
Soviet Union
USA
WWII Eastern Front
WWII Iwo Jima


Now there are 47 maps on the list -- plenty to pick from by anyone's standards, I think.

Still looking for feedback on the list, and on the idea. Should any of these be removed?
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Re: Limit Maps Available for New Players

Postby ctgottapee on Mon Aug 25, 2008 11:44 pm

fantastic idea, would be nice to see some of them implemented ;)

i imagine for the coding behind the scenes, making all sorts of exceptions might be kinda of tough
best to just limit maps available and fog of war option; seems like it might add a nice bonus once someone completes 10 games or so, i mean we are only talking enough games to prove your going to show up and put some time into it.
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Re: Limit Maps Available for New Players

Postby bedub1 on Tue Aug 26, 2008 6:22 pm

So we want to limit the maps to ensure n00bs to the site don't join crazy games/maps etc and get confused and leave. Fantastic idea.

On a similar note...what do you think of allowing freebies to play speed games...and removing their ability to play other games/maps? I think it would get more people on the site playing real time games...which I believe alot of people come looking for...realize they can't play/finish in an hour...get stuck in these "24 hour games" that can sometimes take days before it's their turn...get bored and leave as deadbeats..... maybe I should create my own thread as it's a different idea?
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Re: Limit Maps Available for New Players

Postby danalan on Sat Sep 13, 2008 6:00 pm

danalan wrote:The suggested list of maps new players may choose from, updated with the recent additions (new additions at beginning of list):

City Mogul
Conquer 4
Egypt: Lower
High Seas
Iceland
Classic
Africa
Age of Realms 1
Alexanders Empire
Ancient Greece
Arctic
Asia
Australia
BeNeLux
Brazil
British Isles
Cairns Coral Coast
Canada
Caribbean Islands
CCU
Discworld
Europe
Feudal War
France
Germany
Greater China
Hong Kong
Iberia
Indochina
Ireland
Italy
Malta
Middle Earth
Middle East
Midkemdil
Mongol Empire
Montreal
Netherlands
North America
Philippines
Portugal
Puget Sound
San Francisco
Scotland
South America
Soviet Union
USA
WWII Eastern Front
WWII Iwo Jima


Now there are 49 maps on the list -- almost half the total maps. Plenty to pick from by anyone's standards, I think.

Still looking for feedback on the list, and on the idea. I think this is a great idea, and need to know how to push it into reality.
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Re: Limit Maps Available for New Players

Postby tubaman on Sun Sep 14, 2008 9:39 pm

Feudal War should not be on that list.
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Re: Limit Maps Available for New Players

Postby hecter on Sun Sep 14, 2008 10:01 pm

Neither should Mikidimil or City Mogul. Doodle Earth should be on it though.
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Re: Limit Maps Available for New Players

Postby mibi on Sun Sep 14, 2008 11:55 pm

that list is retarded, but the idea is a good one.
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Re: Limit Maps Available for New Players

Postby danalan on Sat Sep 20, 2008 7:28 am

mibi wrote:that list is retarded, but the idea is a good one.

Great suggestion about the list. Really raised the level of intelligence in this thread. :roll:

Do you have a specific suggestion or complaint about the list? Is there a map that should or shouldn't be on there?

I agree about Feudal War, and City Mogul (they're off), but not about Midkemdil or Doodle Earth.

I think Feudal War requires too much strategy and patience, and City Mogul is confusing and has some complex bombardment rules.

However Midkemdil is fairly straightforward, once you understand the connections via roads. It should stay.

Doodle Earth, like Luxembourg, has too few armies, and is decided too often on placement and initial rolls. I think it's too much for new players to grasp.

The List, back down to 47:

Classic
Africa
Age of Realms 1
Alexanders Empire
Ancient Greece
Arctic
Asia
Australia
BeNeLux
Brazil
British Isles
Cairns Coral Coast
Canada
Caribbean Islands
CCU
Conquer 4
Discworld
Egypt: Lower
Europe
France
Germany
Greater China
High Seas
Hong Kong
Iberia
Iceland
Indochina
Ireland
Italy
Malta
Middle Earth
Middle East
Midkemdil
Mongol Empire
Montreal
Netherlands
North America
Philippines
Portugal
Puget Sound
San Francisco
Scotland
South America
Soviet Union
USA
WWII Eastern Front
WWII Iwo Jima
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Re: Limit Maps Available for New Players

Postby MrBenn on Sat Sep 20, 2008 5:59 pm

From a mapmakers perspective, you'd have to think carefully about the effect of restricting maps to paying users...
... imagine you'd spent a significant amount of time making a map to be played on CC, and were then to discover that you/your friends were unable to play on it (due to being freemium)?
I am not aware of any finanical incentive for mapmaking on the site, but if my map was to be restricted to paying-only members, I'd be inclined to want some sort of cut ;-)
For the latter reason, I'd imagine that the site is less likely to implement it. Having said that, I think that the ideas is certainly worthy of merit - I like the idea of 'unlocking' maps as you progress in rank or completed games etc.
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Re: Limit Maps Available for New Players

Postby Kaplowitz on Sat Sep 20, 2008 6:02 pm

I like this:

You start with only classic style maps.
Finish 5 games, and you get all of the maps.
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Re: Limit Maps Available for New Players

Postby PLAYER57832 on Mon Sep 22, 2008 9:54 am

If I had been restricted to the "traditional" Risk-like games described above, I never would have become premium.

Most of you who have posted here don't like or play the unusual maps and that is why you feel they are "more complex" or harder. It is all a matter of opinion. I think it mostly comes down to whether you are willing to read the legends, etc. Right now, CC offers something for a wide range of players and attracts some of EACH to become premium.

This will just mean more people who like traditional Risk games will join. It won't limit others. And, while ANY reduction of players will reduce deadbeating, ... there are better ways to counter that problem!

PS how did I get to be the thread originator here? I was responding to someone else...
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Re: Limit Maps Available for New Players

Postby danalan on Sat Sep 27, 2008 10:01 am

PLAYER57832 wrote:If I had been restricted to the "traditional" Risk-like games described above, I never would have become premium.

Most of you who have posted here don't like or play the unusual maps and that is why you feel they are "more complex" or harder. It is all a matter of opinion. I think it mostly comes down to whether you are willing to read the legends, etc. Right now, CC offers something for a wide range of players and attracts some of EACH to become premium.

This will just mean more people who like traditional Risk games will join. It won't limit others. And, while ANY reduction of players will reduce deadbeating, ... there are better ways to counter that problem!


Once again, the proposal is not to limit map choices for free players, or to limit access or segregate 'unusual' maps. The proposal is to limit NEW players to a suite of maps that will allow them to better experience the site. I love the complex, unusual, and strategic maps. I play them all, and with a variety of players.

However new players are not well served by having to study difficult rules, deal with unknown odds, or decipher unusual border arrangements. They should be able to play at a somewhat competitive level right away. Limiting the maps available to them is a simple way to do this. With the list of maps I've given, you cannot claim they won't have variety. After 5 games, or whatever standard is decided upon, they get access to all the maps.

Again, it only limits new players -- those with a big ? for rank. Once you have a rank, even it it's cook, you get access to all maps. My contention is that keeping things a little simpler for new players will make them more likely to stay.
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Re: Limit Maps Available for New Players

Postby DiM on Sat Sep 27, 2008 10:58 am

limiting maps for new players is ridiculous.
limiting game types for new players is also ridiculous.

i played risk for over 10 years before i came to this site and in 10 years i played tons of variations of the risk game. variations that were more or less complex. had i been limited when i came here i would have probably left in a matter of days as i was already bored with classic type gameplay.

yes i agree that noobs and complex maps/ weird game settings don't mix very well but rather than limiting their options it's better to implement a system where maps are classified into simple (classic) moderate (a few gameplay twists) and complex (many weird things)
and each category has a description that warns people what they will face.

then if a noob really wants to play a complex map he'll know what he's getting into
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Re: Limit Maps Available for New Players

Postby hwhrhett on Sat Sep 27, 2008 11:24 am

DiM wrote:limiting maps for new players is ridiculous.
limiting game types for new players is also ridiculous.

i played risk for over 10 years before i came to this site and in 10 years i played tons of variations of the risk game. variations that were more or less complex. had i been limited when i came here i would have probably left in a matter of days as i was already bored with classic type gameplay.

yes i agree that noobs and complex maps/ weird game settings don't mix very well but rather than limiting their options it's better to implement a system where maps are classified into simple (classic) moderate (a few gameplay twists) and complex (many weird things)
and each category has a description that warns people what they will face.

then if a noob really wants to play a complex map he'll know what he's getting into


yes, i agree.
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Re: Limit Maps Available for New Players

Postby ManBungalow on Sun Sep 28, 2008 3:37 pm

It's not a bad idea.
I feel that it may discourage new players though,
I guess I could be completely wrong and that having to "unlock" new maps would encourage new players to keep playing.
I'm undecided and proud of it :D
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Re: Limit Maps Available for New Players

Postby ctgottapee on Fri Oct 24, 2008 1:14 am

it really is not ridiculous

while some such as yourself may be limited for a few games, whoop-ee, we are talking like 5-10 games which is nothing
it is only a limit, there are plenty of maps on the limited list for the first few games to keep any pro occupied

yes some of you can drive very fast and do it safely, but many people can not and cause a bit of carnage for everyone else. so until you take a few practice laps, you have to observe a simple speed limit. it is not an unfamiliar concept and it doesn't penalize any newb who'll have more than enough maps to play on

this tactic would potentially also help to cut down on multis on some maps

DiM wrote:limiting maps for new players is ridiculous.
limiting game types for new players is also ridiculous.

i played risk for over 10 years before i came to this site and in 10 years i played tons of variations of the risk game. variations that were more or less complex. had i been limited when i came here i would have probably left in a matter of days as i was already bored with classic type gameplay.

yes i agree that noobs and complex maps/ weird game settings don't mix very well but rather than limiting their options it's better to implement a system where maps are classified into simple (classic) moderate (a few gameplay twists) and complex (many weird things)
and each category has a description that warns people what they will face.

then if a noob really wants to play a complex map he'll know what he's getting into
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Re: Limit Maps Available for New Players

Postby chipv on Fri Oct 24, 2008 2:01 am

DiM wrote:yes i agree that noobs and complex maps/ weird game settings don't mix very well but rather than limiting their options it's better to implement a system where maps are classified into simple (classic) moderate (a few gameplay twists) and complex (many weird things)
and each category has a description that warns people what they will face.

then if a noob really wants to play a complex map he'll know what he's getting into


Forget it. We already tried setting up a complexity system but it was completely misunderstood and any complexity list will have mapmakers bitching about it until it is removed:

viewtopic.php?f=127&t=62255

It is actually running in the Games Filter script (I am sure most of the people in that thread never ran it) however and you can configure your own list.

It doesn't actually matter how you do it whether using criteria or straightforward voting, there is always going to be bias and there is always going to be bitching. The advantage in your suggestion of using voting is that there is less likelihood of the system being hopelessly misunderstood despite several attempts at explanations by several people (for example a lot of people could not understand the levels of complexity which is an abstract concept for the script.

Limiting new players by maps is likely to put experts like you off but might retain the attention of others wishing to see the rest of the maps.
The system doesn't have to make it hard to expose new maps.
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Re: Limit Maps Available for New Players

Postby BaldAdonis on Fri Oct 24, 2008 2:19 am

Why is this idea treated with so much hostility? It's the same as the team game restriction. If you haven't finished 5 games, then you can't join the game, because you'll probably mess it up for everyone else playing. It doesn't matter that in some special cases (ie. everyone who still plays here), the player could have figured out the map. Most players couldn't, and wouldn't know what they're getting into. Plus there's a good chance they'll deadbeat. They'll only have to finish 5 games to have full access to maps, it's not like they only get Classic for the first year.
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Re: Limit Maps Available for New Players

Postby ctgottapee on Sun Oct 26, 2008 7:08 am

the hostility seems to come from people refusing to step out of their own role and trying to experience the game as other types of players might

a good point was brought up about the rules of complexity for such a thing, it does seem like it would be pretty difficult to develop any complex standard to fit all moans and groans

still i don't see why something simple as not being able to join any maps except classic and world 2.0 for the first 5 games would be a problem. as noted it could even work as an enticement for some. the maps wouldn't be hidden, just not joinable. if you can't finish 5 games on a basic map, are you really a player that even warrants the need to be on other maps fucking everything up.

then again, this scenario seems to be trying to solve the bigger problem of not having score/rank minimum or maximum requirements to join games. if you can keep out the extremes, newbs in this case, then you can let them roll any map they want with other newbs no problem.
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Re: Limit Maps Available for New Players

Postby Skiman on Sun Oct 26, 2008 8:40 am

Limiting maps - even for a brief period - for new players is a brilliant idea. It would really help with point farming, for one thing, and would encourage players to learn the basics before getting thrown into a a complex, freestyle map on fog.

Also, I'd support a warning flag for players joining freestyle games that says something about the use of plug-ins and the dis-advantage you'd be under if you didn't use them...so informed decisions can be made
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