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Eliminate Freestyle Double Turns [Done]

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Re: Eliminate Freestyle Double Turns

Postby Artimis on Sat Aug 15, 2009 9:13 pm

demonfork wrote:You have completely missed the point here. In fact your above rambling is so incoherent, I can barely even make sense of it.

"Listen to me, I know freestyle Blah Blah Blah"

First off, the casual freestyle games that you play are multi-player escalating.

In a multi-player causal fs esc games it's all about setting up to eliminate players that have enough cards so that you will be able to mid-cash once they have been taken down. With these settings, cards are king. Missing a card to take a double turn would be suicide. When playing these settings there is practically no strategical reason to miss a card in lieu of a double turn.

Now FS casual 1v1, you have not a clue, you are -90 some points over 200 some games.

In a 1v1 setting the double turn is 100% necessary to balance out the game. If your opponent uses any sort of delay tactic by ending his turn early in hopes of returning at a later time to take his turn while you are offline, the results in most cases are devastating. The double turn gives you the opportunity to counter these delay tactics and re balance the game. Without the double turn, casual 1v1 freestyle would turn into a game of who is better at ending their turn the fastest.


What Bruce had to say made sense to me, demonfork.

As I've shown previously in this thread the double turn may not be against the rules as they stand at current, however, it is a questionable tactic. Double turning on an objective map to automatically win does not prove superior strategic nous. Don't throw the same old "you must be there at the end of the round to block the double turn" line at me, no one is fast enough to prevent a double turn on a game winning objective when the perpetrator is using Clickable Maps and holding down the 'B' button. Not even the Freestyle City Mogul supremo King Herpes himself can strike fast enough to block it.
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Re: Eliminate Freestyle Double Turns

Postby 4myGod on Sat Aug 15, 2009 9:25 pm

demonfork wrote:In a multi-player causal fs esc games it's all about setting up to eliminate players that have enough cards so that you will be able to mid-cash once they have been taken down. With these settings, cards are king. Missing a card to take a double turn would be suicide. When playing these settings there is practically no strategical reason to miss a card in lieu of a double turn.

I am not a big freestyle player, nor escalating cards player. However from my understanding if you are playing escalating and as you said it's all about setting up to eliminate players so you can mid cash, then wouldn't it seem taking a double turn would help? Yes, you might lose 1 card by taking a double turn, however you can set yourself up that way to eliminate a player before they even saw it coming. Perhaps you couldn't eliminate him in one turn, but with 2 back to back turns you could. If that player had 4 cards and you had 2, then losing the 1 card to get the player's 4 cards would be a pretty good idea.
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Re: Eliminate Freestyle Double Turns

Postby demonfork on Sat Aug 15, 2009 9:26 pm

Bruceswar wrote:If I wanted to double turn and farm 1 vs 1's I would , but what is the point. Lame .... big deal if someone is +500 using 1 vs 1 freestyle on City Mogul. Means nothing, other than that person can double turn for a win. Wow special. Moving past my 1 vs 1 map rank... If I am so lousy at it setup 10 games on a non conquest map on it and see how many you win vs me. Anybody can double turn in triples, quads, doubles or a 1 vs 1. Does it make them better? Not at all. Just makes them less of a player in many people's eyes. Personally I do not care either way, but there are many casual players just looking for a decent game. Not to have someone who is gonna use every last once of the "stated" rules to win. Sure it might not be illegal YET but don't expect it to stay this way forever. They have "fixed" it once already, and I am sure down the line they will fix this loophole also. So please do not try to defend this like it is "just another style of play" We all know this is not how CC was intended to be played with Freestyle.


Only the cc idiots are the ones that think that the non surprise double turn was "not intended"... should I quote lack AGAIN???

Edit.. As far as your challenge goes, I set up public 1v1's on non conquest maps everyday, you are now and always have been welcome to join them whenever you wish.
Last edited by demonfork on Sat Aug 15, 2009 9:40 pm, edited 2 times in total.
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Re: Eliminate Freestyle Double Turns

Postby demonfork on Sat Aug 15, 2009 9:30 pm

Artimis wrote:
demonfork wrote:You have completely missed the point here. In fact your above rambling is so incoherent, I can barely even make sense of it.

"Listen to me, I know freestyle Blah Blah Blah"

First off, the casual freestyle games that you play are multi-player escalating.

In a multi-player causal fs esc games it's all about setting up to eliminate players that have enough cards so that you will be able to mid-cash once they have been taken down. With these settings, cards are king. Missing a card to take a double turn would be suicide. When playing these settings there is practically no strategical reason to miss a card in lieu of a double turn.

Now FS casual 1v1, you have not a clue, you are -90 some points over 200 some games.

In a 1v1 setting the double turn is 100% necessary to balance out the game. If your opponent uses any sort of delay tactic by ending his turn early in hopes of returning at a later time to take his turn while you are offline, the results in most cases are devastating. The double turn gives you the opportunity to counter these delay tactics and re balance the game. Without the double turn, casual 1v1 freestyle would turn into a game of who is better at ending their turn the fastest.


What Bruce had to say made sense to me, demonfork.

As I've shown previously in this thread the double turn may not be against the rules as they stand at current, however, it is a questionable tactic. Double turning on an objective map to automatically win does not prove superior strategic nous. Don't throw the same old "you must be there at the end of the round to block the double turn" line at me, no one is fast enough to prevent a double turn on a game winning objective when the perpetrator is using Clickable Maps and holding down the 'B' button. Not even the Freestyle City Mogul supremo King Herpes himself can strike fast enough to block it.


Are you kidding? King_herpes would never put himself in the situation of being on the top of the turn rotation while his opponent had enough armies to take the objective.

As Ive said before, All you have to do to prevent your opponent from taking a double turn is to stay on the bottom of the turn rotation, it's not hard.
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Re: Eliminate Freestyle Double Turns

Postby demonfork on Sat Aug 15, 2009 9:35 pm

4myGod wrote:
demonfork wrote:In a multi-player causal fs esc games it's all about setting up to eliminate players that have enough cards so that you will be able to mid-cash once they have been taken down. With these settings, cards are king. Missing a card to take a double turn would be suicide. When playing these settings there is practically no strategical reason to miss a card in lieu of a double turn.

I am not a big freestyle player, nor escalating cards player. However from my understanding if you are playing escalating and as you said it's all about setting up to eliminate players so you can mid cash, then wouldn't it seem taking a double turn would help? Yes, you might lose 1 card by taking a double turn, however you can set yourself up that way to eliminate a player before they even saw it coming. Perhaps you couldn't eliminate him in one turn, but with 2 back to back turns you could. If that player had 4 cards and you had 2, then losing the 1 card to get the player's 4 cards would be a pretty good idea.


On the rare occasion that you were on the bottom of the turn rotation, you took your turn with less than an hour left on the 24 hour clock and you failed in your attempt at eliminating a player because of bad dice or something then yes in that instance you might try and take a double turn to "finish the job" in the next round. Not a very likely scenario.
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Re: Eliminate Freestyle Double Turns

Postby cramill on Sun Aug 16, 2009 2:22 am

Artimis wrote:After conducting this search of Lacks posts with the key words Double and Expires I found only two matches:
Subject: [Official] Freestyle Changes -- Give us your feedback!
Subject: Ending fake double turns.

The top one of the two post links is where that quote is from.

Ah. Thanks, I guess I was wrong thinking that someone else said that. But, I still think we need to hear more or see some kind of change - either to the game implementation or the wording of the rules. Those posts you linked to are from Jan 2006 and Sep 2007. Quite a while ago. I think we need to hear something official about this issue since this specific thread has been going on since May 08, 2008...

I agree with this statement:
The Neon Peon wrote:Personally, I think a norm has to be set. If someone like lack or Andy would put in one of their announcements "hey everyone, just want to clarify that taking double turns and using scripts is OK with us," then I could see no problem with using them. But until then, I am not going to hit someone in the back of the head if 99% of people in the world think it's wrong.

Right now, the way the game instructions are stated, it is not clear that a double turn is possible. So, when someone who doesn't know the ins and outs of this 'tactic' gets steamrolled by someone winning because of a double turn, they whine and complain. I think a clarification needs to be made. And why one has not been made yet baffles me.
Instructions wrote:The player who triggers a new round is blocked from taking a second back-to-back turn...

There is no explaination that "triggers a new round" means ending your turn. To many it would seem to be that taking your turn last means that you are the one that triggers the new round. There is no explaination that the round timer can be the one that triggers a new round...
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Re: Eliminate Freestyle Double Turns

Postby The Neon Peon on Sun Aug 16, 2009 10:31 am

azezzo wrote:It sure would be nice if Lackattack would come out of his shell a little more, be a little more vocal, Hell, even like to see him play a few more games than hes accustomed to.

Agreed.

azezzo wrote:It would be nice if he would take the time to return a pm once in awhile, oh thats right, he doesnt accept P.M's from us, the great unwashed masses. I only say this because the mods seem to be against double turn taking, but do not seem to have the authority to do anything about it.

He has returned every PM that I have sent him in under 24 hours.
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Re: Eliminate Freestyle Double Turns

Postby azezzo on Sun Aug 16, 2009 11:10 am

well peon, u must be very special, obviously you have the secret bat phone , phone # because when i have sent pm's to him in the past, i have gotten no response, and currently if you try to pm him the following comes up,

The webmaster does not accept messages. Please visit the Help page to get in touch with staff.

so he obviously doesnt want to be bothered by the rest of us peons.
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Re: Eliminate Freestyle Double Turns

Postby The Neon Peon on Sun Aug 16, 2009 11:54 am

azezzo wrote:well peon, u must be very special, obviously you have the secret bat phone , phone # because when i have sent pm's to him in the past, i have gotten no response, and currently if you try to pm him the following comes up,

The webmaster does not accept messages. Please visit the Help page to get in touch with staff.

so he obviously doesnt want to be bothered by the rest of us peons.

Well, the messages I sent to him were at least 6 months ago. I guess things have changed since then.
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Re: Eliminate Freestyle Double Turns

Postby fiction on Mon Aug 17, 2009 11:57 pm

Hm I was arguing with an admin on the issue and found a nice little tid bit, and so sorry the debate is now over.
Found in the offical instructions to a freestyle game.
"In a freestyle game it doesn't matter in which order players take their turns. Players can even play simultaneously! After the last player takes his turn, a new round begins immediately. The player who triggers a new round is blocked from taking a second back-to-back turn and must wait until either an opponent begins their turn or half of the round passes."

Can you bug abusers who support the double move read? Just because you don't end your move doesn't mean anything, they are triggering the new round to begin. Thus they "MUST WAIT". The fact that they do not is as clear a violation of the rules as anything. Game over. I imagine bans will start being issued very soon for those who have violated this policy.
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Re: Eliminate Freestyle Double Turns

Postby cramill on Tue Aug 18, 2009 2:27 am

fiction wrote:Hm I was arguing with an admin on the issue and found a nice little tid bit, and so sorry the debate is now over.
Found in the offical instructions to a freestyle game.
"In a freestyle game it doesn't matter in which order players take their turns. Players can even play simultaneously! After the last player takes his turn, a new round begins immediately. The player who triggers a new round is blocked from taking a second back-to-back turn and must wait until either an opponent begins their turn or half of the round passes."

Can you bug abusers who support the double move read? Just because you don't end your move doesn't mean anything, they are triggering the new round to begin. Thus they "MUST WAIT". The fact that they do not is as clear a violation of the rules as anything. Game over. I imagine bans will start being issued very soon for those who have violated this policy.

Lol. You're new to this debate, aren't you? The loophole is that they say that the round timer is the one to trigger the new round. Not themselves. So, at the start of the new round, since they 'weren't the ones to trigger the new round' they get to begin their turn right away. I know this is a lame 'tactic' and I want it changed too, but I don't see a change coming soon and this debate just might go on forever.
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Re: Eliminate Freestyle Double Turns

Postby Thezzaruz on Tue Aug 18, 2009 2:51 am

cramill wrote:Lol. You're new to this debate, aren't you? The loophole is that they say that the round timer is the one to trigger the new round. Not themselves. So, at the start of the new round, since they 'weren't the ones to trigger the new round' they get to begin their turn right away. I know this is a lame 'tactic' and I want it changed too, but I don't see a change coming soon and this debate just might go on forever.


Unfortunately what they say is backed up by the game code :( , agree with the rest.
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Re: Eliminate Freestyle Double Turns

Postby sully800 on Fri Aug 28, 2009 4:17 pm

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Re: Eliminate Freestyle Double Turns

Postby Strife on Fri Aug 28, 2009 7:57 pm


Hey, is this one down two to go, or the only big update? :)
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Re: Eliminate Freestyle Double Turns [Done]

Postby cramill on Fri Aug 28, 2009 11:11 pm

Hooray for a solution! (Closing the loophole!) =D>
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Re: Eliminate Freestyle Double Turns [Done]

Postby demonfork on Sat Aug 29, 2009 7:14 pm

cramill wrote:Hooray for a solution! (Closing the loophole!) =D>


Coming from a guy who has played an entire four (4) freestyle 1v1's.

These are exactly the kind of players that whined and bitched loud enough to finally ruin freestyle. It wasn't from those that played and enjoyed freestyle.
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Re: Eliminate Freestyle Double Turns [Done]

Postby alex951 on Sat Aug 29, 2009 8:13 pm

majority rule minority rights, so because a lot of ppl bitch about double turns us how enjoy it can use it anymore, i most now just play doodle assassin speed game and the no double turn fucks the game play up for everyone
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Re: Eliminate Freestyle Double Turns [Done]

Postby owenshooter on Sat Aug 29, 2009 8:56 pm

alex951 wrote:majority rule minority rights, so because a lot of ppl bitch about double turns us how enjoy it can use it anymore, i most now just play doodle assassin speed game and the no double turn fucks the game play up for everyone

yeah, not being able to cheat really sucks... perhaps while you are waiting for those turns to come around, you can study some grammar and other basic language rules.. that way, us how enjoy the forums can use it anymore easily...-0
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Re: Eliminate Freestyle Double Turns [Done]

Postby demonfork on Sat Aug 29, 2009 9:51 pm

owenshooter wrote:
alex951 wrote:majority rule minority rights, so because a lot of ppl bitch about double turns us how enjoy it can use it anymore, i most now just play doodle assassin speed game and the no double turn fucks the game play up for everyone

yeah, not being able to cheat really sucks... perhaps while you are waiting for those turns to come around, you can study some grammar and other basic language rules.. that way, us how enjoy the forums can use it anymore easily...-0


Owen, you have played SIX (6) total freestyle games in the entire history of your games played. You don't have clue when it comes to freestyle, you are not a credible source for determining what is and is not cheating in freestyle.
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Re: Eliminate Freestyle Double Turns [Done]

Postby john9blue on Sun Aug 30, 2009 12:24 am

demonfork wrote:Owen, you have played SIX (6) total freestyle games in the entire history of your games played. You don't have clue when it comes to freestyle, you are not a credible source for determining what is and is not cheating in freestyle.


Yeah owen, how dare you stop playing a game setting that you hate?! :roll:
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Re: Eliminate Freestyle Double Turns [Done]

Postby sully800 on Sun Aug 30, 2009 8:09 am

Now let's all stay away from personal attacks and discuss the issue at hand, eh?

As someone who has played 134 freestyle games (17% of total) I am very happy with the changes. As you probably know we used to have games in which double turns were allowed and games in which they were not. It was decided that this was an unnecessary option and encouraged "unfair" tactics and made the game less about the casual player and more about the serious gamer. So the double turns were eliminated, and yet this loophole remained. Now I understand that it wasn't cheating, but using the loophole was clearly taking advantage of players who did not know about it, and this went against the principle of eliminating the option of double turns. This was all made worse when objective games appeared because in those cases the double turn ensures that you win, and there is no way the opponent can stop you, even if they are there exactly when time runs out. That is what made the setting very unfair and is why there was such large support for a fix to the loophole. So now speed freestyle games are very different, and I know that will take some getting used to, but it's hard to argue that they aren't more fair.
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Re: Eliminate Freestyle Double Turns

Postby sully800 on Sun Aug 30, 2009 8:11 am

Strife wrote:Hey, is this one down two to go, or the only big update? :)


Well I hope it is not the only thing! Unfortunately we don't get briefed on exactly what will be added because it's hard to know how difficult the coding will be, but I'm definitely hoping we will see more additions from this list: viewtopic.php?f=6&t=94711&start=0
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Re: Eliminate Freestyle Double Turns [Done]

Postby cramill on Sun Aug 30, 2009 2:46 pm

demonfork wrote:
cramill wrote:Hooray for a solution! (Closing the loophole!) =D>


Coming from a guy who has played an entire four (4) freestyle 1v1's.

These are exactly the kind of players that whined and bitched loud enough to finally ruin freestyle. It wasn't from those that played and enjoyed freestyle.

Yes, but I played many more doubles freestyle games. Me and my buddy Metalmesh were pretty good at those.
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Re: Eliminate Freestyle Double Turns [Done]

Postby alex951 on Sat Sep 05, 2009 8:43 pm

owenshooter wrote:
alex951 wrote:majority rule minority rights, so because a lot of ppl bitch about double turns us how enjoy it can use it anymore, i most now just play doodle assassin speed game and the no double turn fucks the game play up for everyone

yeah, not being able to cheat really sucks... perhaps while you are waiting for those turns to come around, you can study some grammar and other basic language rules.. that way, us how enjoy the forums can use it anymore easily...-0


f*** you, eat a d*** b****. sorry i was typing fast and didn't read over what i wrote. the double turn was a big part of doodle assassin speed games, everyone expected it and everyone used it. the double turn just became part of freestyle. plus you have never played one of those game so how do you know what your taking about? its like a little kid telling his mom that he doesn't like something with out trying it.
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Re: Eliminate Freestyle Double Turns [Done]

Postby Bruceswar on Mon Sep 07, 2009 3:47 am

alex951 wrote:
owenshooter wrote:
alex951 wrote:majority rule minority rights, so because a lot of ppl bitch about double turns us how enjoy it can use it anymore, i most now just play doodle assassin speed game and the no double turn fucks the game play up for everyone

yeah, not being able to cheat really sucks... perhaps while you are waiting for those turns to come around, you can study some grammar and other basic language rules.. that way, us how enjoy the forums can use it anymore easily...-0


f*** you, eat a d*** b****. sorry i was typing fast and didn't read over what i wrote. the double turn was a big part of doodle assassin speed games, everyone expected it and everyone used it. the double turn just became part of freestyle. plus you have never played one of those game so how do you know what your taking about? its like a little kid telling his mom that he doesn't like something with out trying it.



I have played thousands of freestyle games and I think it is a great fix! Suck it up cupcake and get used to it. Just press B until you can start. It is not that hard at all. Stop bitching and learn to get better at this game.
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