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Strongest Overall Player on CC?

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Re: Strongest Overall Player on CC?

Postby codeblue1018 on Tue Sep 17, 2013 7:05 am

Bruceswar wrote:
Mr Changsha wrote:
Bruceswar wrote:I do not think anywhere I said King Herpes was the best player on CC. Is he good? Ofc, but not the best overall by far.

If I was going to pick a top 5 overall best players...

Poo-maker
Mhennigan
Scott-land
RashidJelzin
sjnap


I think that is a good selection from 'the old days'. Like you I find it hard not to focus on the 2007-2009 period.

However IF a large percentage of their record (and thus the high score that build the record was due to farming) then I would disqualify them.

Also, I think your list is (possibly unsurprisingly) rather focused on the freestyle games you were playing back in the day. However, as you could certainly claim that this style was the 'best' style - though I would disagree - then that is fair enough.

In the end we can only write about what we have seen.

Possibly surprising, but the best sequential player I have come across was Rabbiton..who taught me an incredible amount in two games and completely changed how I thought about team games. I believe his trips record, for instance, was top notch. However, the rank farming must be taken into account (which is how he made his score) and so I would disqualify him on that basis.



Your logic is fail. While rabbit is a very good seq player, I would not say he is super keen at freestyle. Sure he did farm some noobs, but he would not hold up vs the best. The speed would kill him is my guess. Putting his farming aside, Rabbit is a damn good player and one of the games best. My list would include someone from today if there was a well rounded player from today. MC comes the closest to my list. Most of the top players specialize in a certain area and do not cross all mediums. Per say Josko. He could very well be the best team game player to ever play CC, and he can hold his own in a seq std game, but you take him into a multiplayer freestyle game and his edge is gone. I think Josko is a brilliant player but he is just not as well rounded as some.


Bruce, you forgot to mention Jork; as far as team player - best there was here. 80% win rate on public team games with anyone to join as his partner; he didn't discriminate. Then again, not sure if you knew him. I agree with your top 5 list in that exact order.
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Re: Strongest Overall Player on CC?

Postby betiko on Tue Sep 17, 2013 8:11 am

mhennigan only played 8 men escalating on classic; how on earth could he be an overall best?
regarding the others on that list, they're like from last century.
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Re: Strongest Overall Player on CC?

Postby shoop76 on Tue Sep 17, 2013 8:48 am

I tried to get into the whole speed freestyle thing one time. Then krapthone joined one of my games and he completed his turn before I could even deploy. That was the end of that experiment.
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Re: Strongest Overall Player on CC?

Postby laughingcavalier on Tue Sep 17, 2013 9:09 am

Oooooh I do like this discussion. There is so much fun to be had splitting hairs over who is the best player which I guess is why we like to get out our spoddy-books and size up the folks we played against as legends, just a little of whose glory may rub off on our own tawdry records of gameplaying.
Of course Bruce and Mr C are wrong as usual. Oh there have been enough things said in this thread to tease out a few sensible pointers from them, but they miss the essence. I can tell them precisely who is the best player of all time ā€“ yes, peeps, all time ā€“ for we have seen the greatest CC players ever, and their like shall not be seen again.
There are only two things which a CC champion must have to be considered for the title greatest:
First, time. Ticktock countdown hours minutes weeks days: TIME.
Ever notice how josko made his name playing unlimited games on big maps, where you must be able to switch on long minutes, hours even, for the optimum distribution of attack and reinforcement of great numbers of troops over the critical first turns? How CoF made his name in clan wars, where five, ten, twenty games start at once, each taking determined thought & concentration to pull your team through, following the pattern of a game carefully move by move so that each new development is assimilated into a coherent plan? How King_Herpes who was once so fearsome and feared on many maps and in multiple fora is but a stripey shadow of his former self with hardly the strength to boot anyoneā€™s butt? We clear-thinking strategical sequential types may mock the button mashers for their willingness to get up in the night, but let us be honest each point we have gained has been bought with precious minutes paid out to consideration of the options. I know Iā€™m better than some of my team-mates precisely because they come to play in 2 minutes and rush on to the next game. I know Iā€™m not the player I was because I have tried to ration my time here to managebale levels. I know I will never have the reputation I want because like so many others, there are great lacunae in my playing habits where events in real life compel me to rush a turn or skip a commentā€¦ The champion, let us be clear has demands and conflictions of his own with Sweet Awesome Tempus who dogs his every mouseclick, but he has a determination and an ability and a freedom to give the time needed to playing the perfect game, and to playing enough of those perfect games to count.
And it is the power of Time that assures us we will never again see someone who can be called the greatest. Why? Oh curse Big Wham and his implementations, curse the incontinence of the mapmakers, curse those fools in the suggestions forum whittering on about improvementsā€¦ Have you not stopped to consider what it means to those of us who want to prove our manhood here? You are too prolific, you have spawned such multifarious ways of playing this game that no one person can ever possibly, even with a HighlanderAttack level of addiction, master them all. More and more we shall be pushed into silos, climbing laboriously to the top of whichever rickety tower we choose while we look out across the fog trench manual 12-player freestyle Spanish Armada divide to all those other towers out there that other players are climbing beyond our reach. Compare me with someone atop that dungpile there? How dare you? There was a time perhaps the game had few enough variations to say assuredly someone was best across enough of them to count, that time is gone. No-one after today can be called the greatest any more.
And, second, the other definitive attribute of the greatest players of all time: REPUTATION.
Let us be clear here, we are not voting for the best ever, we are choosing the most-admired ever. And how do you get to be admired. It simply wonā€™t happen, Messieurs. Mesdames, if you do not stand up, push your head above the parapet, say: ā€œHERE I AM. Look at me. Now. And again. And stop looking the other way. Now.ā€ Josko and CoF, for example, I sincerely believe they are very great players. But regard how much their reputation is built on their personae, the long hours spent by us all following the twists and turns of their feud, their wit and their wisdom and their crankiness and calumny shared with us in the forums, the private messages sent to friends and team-mates and acquaintances, the way they lead within games. Herpes --ļƒ  who would have thought anyone so good at clicking mouses could be such a great and entertaining figure? What anyone, let alone what Conqueror could match his inspired lunacy? Who ever pulled off the annoying brat with such mastery? For every mug he creamed on mogul there was an outrageous bon mot to put it from our minds. Poomaker? Here, and it is a beautiful thing, we look to the venerations offered by Bruce and by Code and the like ā€“ he does not have to be the loudest because others will speak loudly for him. But what of those who play with great skill and dedication, quiet within the confines of their own teams and circles? What of them? I donā€™t know. I donā€™t know if they are the greatest. Because I donā€™t know them or their reputation. There is no way I can measure them because they simply have not reached the starting post of fame-on-CC which is the place from where the race for greatest is won. However good their play, they are simply not in the race.
And so the greatest? I have mentioned some names, those who spring to my mind immediately as candidates from those who have been called to attention beforeā€¦ but one name outstrips them all. And do not think I count on such mundanity as tactics or strategy or diversity of skills, which considerations might promote another to challenge for his title. No, there is one man who above all conquered time and conquered our minds. Yes, of course I speak of blitzaholic. Did he have family? Did he work? Did he have friends? Did he have hobbies? None that might distract from his prolific playing and speaking and organising of the game. But the time he gave was nothing beside his dedication of spirit. In blitz there was no irony, no doubt, no pausing over intent or methods, no digression from the one true discourse, no dallying with unpurposed pleasantries or formless chat, no break for a moment in the mask, there was only pure unadulterated commitment to the creation, frankly, of a CC machine that lived here in hyperspace with one intent and one purpose only, a purpose, most assuredly to be ā€“ and that purpose achieved ā€“ the greatest on CC.
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Re: Strongest Overall Player on CC?

Postby iAmCaffeine on Tue Sep 17, 2013 9:25 am

Mr Changsha wrote:
iAmCaffeine wrote:It's so frustrating when purely sequential players start talking shit about speed freestyle but simply don't have a clue how it's played. Hi Changsha.



Hi!

Gotta say that it is nowhere near as annoying as freestyle players players claiming they can play sequential just as well as freestyle on the basis of...."Duh, well it is slower innit?"


I'd say they're level in terms of annoyance. I personally haven't seen anyone claim they're just as good at sequential as freestyle because it's slower, though.

shoop76 wrote:I tried to get into the whole speed freestyle thing one time. Then krapthone joined one of my games and he completed his turn before I could even deploy. That was the end of that experiment.


:lol:
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Re: Strongest Overall Player on CC?

Postby betiko on Tue Sep 17, 2013 10:05 am

Lol, great post LC :D
who wouldn't be convinced after all you said!

unvote, vote blitzaholic

I'm a bit disapointed though, cause when blitz was big on the site I was a noob and never entered the forums. I just always saw this same guy never leaving the number 1 spot, ever, until his "accident". Then came the MC times, where everyone was wondering how could someone be conqueror with only 200 games... pretty impressive too. Other than this, all the name droppings there all make sense to me.
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Re: Strongest Overall Player on CC?

Postby macbone on Tue Sep 17, 2013 10:26 am

Yeah, laughingcav makes some good points. =) Blitz was the man when I first started playing.

MJ was one of the greatest basketball players ever. He wasn't the best rebounder (not like Wilt Chamberlain), or three-point shooter, although he could do that, and he wasn't very nice, but he could take control of a game and bend it to his will. He made everyone around him better.

Blitz was a player in the same mold. He was his own loudest cheerleader, but the man was very, very good, and as cav points out, blitz had the time and energy to devote not just to dominating games but to publicizing his own victories.

But has no one brought up Iron Maid yet? 15 wins on nearly every map (9 on Three Kingdoms of China, 7 on Tribal War - Israel, 3 on Spanish Armada)? Feared in team games, singles, and large-number term/standard games? Nearly 14k games completed, with a 55% win rate? 144 medals? Dude's the total package. =)
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Re: Strongest Overall Player on CC?

Postby loutil on Tue Sep 17, 2013 12:31 pm

Bruceswar wrote:Few quick points for all you trying to score points on each other. I will not post anything but truths.


4. There is no such programs that exist to help people like loutil suggest. In the past people have used a weight on the B key to start a turn or some other BS, but nothing like he suggest. It does not exist, so do not try and see people use it.


If you had a weight on the B key to start your turn it would then be very easy to write a simple macro for deployment. Integrating scripts into CC is not hard. I use a deployment counting script that tracks all deployment, manual and auto, for each player during a game. I do not play freestyle but have had discussions with other players about scripting a macro for turn start and deployment.
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Re: Strongest Overall Player on CC?

Postby loutil on Tue Sep 17, 2013 12:50 pm

To add to my previous post. I have copied the following from another thread on the CC forum:

by Beckytheblondie on Fri Mar 05, 2010 10:32 am

drunkmonkey wrote:
The Instructions for freestyle read: "To keep things fair, the last player (or team) to end their turn in each round is blocked from taking a second back-to-back turn and must wait until either an opponent begins their turn or half of the round passes."

There are scripts available to begin your turn the second your opponent clicks the "Begin Turn" button. It could easily be modified (if not already) to set up initial deployments and attacks. This undermines the reason for making a player wait for an opponent? Is this legal? If so, does anyone else see a problem with it, or am I alone in this view?

There are many players who utilize a program called an Auto Typer which continually presses the hot key to begin the turn when their opponent does. Of course, though, this requires that they have that game open, that they be near their computer to play shortly after turn has commenced.
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Re: Strongest Overall Player on CC?

Postby rhp 1 on Tue Sep 17, 2013 4:34 pm

Bruceswar wrote:Few quick points for all you trying to score points on each other. I will not post anything but truths.

1. Poo-maker was the best overall player. Anybody who has ever played with or against him will tell you this. You can all turn blue in the face, but that does not change the point. No disrespect to other players.

2. Speed freestyle has lots of strategy involved. As someone who has played a ton of it, if you do not have strategy you will not win.

3. While speed plays a part in speed freestyle you do not have to be in America to win games. The best 1 vs 1 Speed freestyle player ever to play was from Europe. karelpietertje was tops ever. He would sometimes play 4 or 5 games at a time and win them all.

4. There is no such programs that exist to help people like loutil suggest. In the past people have used a weight on the B key to start a turn or some other BS, but nothing like he suggest. It does not exist, so do not try and see people use it.

5. Casual freestyle is not all about farming. If you play some strange map and have funky settings then it can be. If you play something like 8 or 12 man classic vs keen players then it is a damn good game. Game 13162953

6. Seq is a different game all together. I mean the same principles apply. Stack men, wait, wait, wait, kill all! The difference is that if a player 2 spots above you hang someone you cannot do anything about it. In freestyle you have a chance. Lets not get into throwing a block. Some people think blocking is a really cheap strategy and rarely turns a win in the players favor.

7. Casual freestyle team games. Those who set them up are asking to get farmed. Just saying team 1 rarely ever plays as one team. Team 2 many times will all get on together and take their turns together.

8. If you are talking overall player you have to include all settings. Speed freestyle, Freestyle Casual, Seq, etc etc etc



holy shit.. never thought I would say this, but I agree with pretty much everything here... I didn't play against Poo, so I can't really comment, but the rest? pretty much spot-on...
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Re: Strongest Overall Player on CC?

Postby rhp 1 on Tue Sep 17, 2013 4:39 pm

Mr Changsha wrote:
Bruceswar wrote:OK so then you agree. Poo-maker would have rather played all Generals than cooks and stripers. Case over.


Ha!

Once we have found say 10 players who unquestionably had/have extremely good win rates against excellent opposition, We THEN have to consider the relative value of their game.

At this point the conversation will continue to go around in circles.

What I am trying to add into the conversation is that any player who didn't/doesn't play top class opposition should be immediately discounted..which would remove quite a number of players mentioned in the last few pages.



you have several flaws in your logic here that I'm too tired atm to point out...

while I think some of your previous opinions, though I disagree with many, are valid, the biggest issue with many of your arguments is that one of the settings that you commented on several times (speed fs), you simply do not play... not that this is a bad thing, and not that you can't have an opinion on the subject, but your opinion would be wildly subjective, and lacking any basis in fact due to your lack of exposure... you would give me your reasons for not playing this setting, and valid as they may be, they would still render your positions and opinions on that setting dubious at best, and completely discountable @ worst...
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Re: Strongest Overall Player on CC?

Postby rhp 1 on Tue Sep 17, 2013 5:15 pm

betiko wrote:I just wanted to say I strongly disagree with mr changsha.
Unless you judge the quality of the oposition by something else than the rank! You have tons of solid players that can be captains or major; the fact of daring facing them rather than a top player is a great positive point, not negative.
If you're a general and you face a very good major, you will earn very little and lose a lot potentially. You know that the skill difference is not worth the potential loss/gain compared to the one you get from someone ranked similarly. This is a luck based game, and if you manage to be at the top facing other stuff than top tier colonels and above you are damn good.

Other thing: I'm sure speed freestylers are pretty good at sequential too, I don't see why it shouldn't be the case. If you analyze that fast everything going on in a speed freestyle, you surely can find your ways in sequential. Might work better working on your patience though, but basically i'm sure that if they try hard enough they can be very good. The other way around doesn't work.



+1

and this is precisely why I maintain that best overall player has to be a reasonably accomplished freestyle player (and not casual fs) to be considered OVERALL best... because many accomplished speed fs players ARE good to very good @ sequential, but the inverse cannot be said...
Last edited by rhp 1 on Tue Sep 17, 2013 7:29 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Strongest Overall Player on CC?

Postby rhp 1 on Tue Sep 17, 2013 5:18 pm

shoop76 wrote:I tried to get into the whole speed freestyle thing one time. Then krapthone joined one of my games and he completed his turn before I could even deploy. That was the end of that experiment.


he is an elite fs player... but he'll play against anyone on just about any map... real good at seq as well...

it's not freestyle players against noobs I'm talking about here... that you can call farming.... I'm fine with that.... It's speed freestyle against players with similar speed and skill that I speak of, and to call that farming? absurd... sadly, these players are getting very sparse indeed...
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Re: Strongest Overall Player on CC?

Postby Bruceswar on Tue Sep 17, 2013 8:58 pm

loutil wrote:To add to my previous post. I have copied the following from another thread on the CC forum:

by Beckytheblondie on Fri Mar 05, 2010 10:32 am

drunkmonkey wrote:
The Instructions for freestyle read: "To keep things fair, the last player (or team) to end their turn in each round is blocked from taking a second back-to-back turn and must wait until either an opponent begins their turn or half of the round passes."

There are scripts available to begin your turn the second your opponent clicks the "Begin Turn" button. It could easily be modified (if not already) to set up initial deployments and attacks. This undermines the reason for making a player wait for an opponent? Is this legal? If so, does anyone else see a problem with it, or am I alone in this view?

There are many players who utilize a program called an Auto Typer which continually presses the hot key to begin the turn when their opponent does. Of course, though, this requires that they have that game open, that they be near their computer to play shortly after turn has commenced.



It does not exist... full stop. End of story.
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Re: Strongest Overall Player on CC?

Postby BigBallinStalin on Tue Sep 17, 2013 10:10 pm

Since freestyle cheating via macros is unenforceable, then shouldn't all claims about the greatness of any freestyler be heavily discounted? (They're likely to be cheaters anyway, and it's not like they'd admit to using abusive macros).
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Re: Strongest Overall Player on CC?

Postby BigBallinStalin on Tue Sep 17, 2013 10:11 pm

Bruceswar wrote:
loutil wrote:To add to my previous post. I have copied the following from another thread on the CC forum:

by Beckytheblondie on Fri Mar 05, 2010 10:32 am

drunkmonkey wrote:
The Instructions for freestyle read: "To keep things fair, the last player (or team) to end their turn in each round is blocked from taking a second back-to-back turn and must wait until either an opponent begins their turn or half of the round passes."

There are scripts available to begin your turn the second your opponent clicks the "Begin Turn" button. It could easily be modified (if not already) to set up initial deployments and attacks. This undermines the reason for making a player wait for an opponent? Is this legal? If so, does anyone else see a problem with it, or am I alone in this view?

There are many players who utilize a program called an Auto Typer which continually presses the hot key to begin the turn when their opponent does. Of course, though, this requires that they have that game open, that they be near their computer to play shortly after turn has commenced.



It does not exist... full stop. End of story.


That doesn't explain anything. I know LT's capabilities when it comes to these products, but you provide nothing in your defense. Repeating your unfounded claim doesn't advance your case; it's a logical fallacy. So.... "full stop. End of story." is correct at this juncture.
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Re: Strongest Overall Player on CC?

Postby rhp 1 on Tue Sep 17, 2013 10:12 pm

BigBallinStalin wrote:Since freestyle cheating via macros is unenforceable, then shouldn't all claims about the greatness of any freestyler be heavily discounted? (They're likely to be cheaters anyway, and it's not like they'd admit to using abusive macros).



haha....

definitely agree with this!














:roll:
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Re: Strongest Overall Player on CC?

Postby loutil on Tue Sep 17, 2013 10:17 pm

Bruceswar wrote:
loutil wrote:To add to my previous post. I have copied the following from another thread on the CC forum:

by Beckytheblondie on Fri Mar 05, 2010 10:32 am

drunkmonkey wrote:
The Instructions for freestyle read: "To keep things fair, the last player (or team) to end their turn in each round is blocked from taking a second back-to-back turn and must wait until either an opponent begins their turn or half of the round passes."

There are scripts available to begin your turn the second your opponent clicks the "Begin Turn" button. It could easily be modified (if not already) to set up initial deployments and attacks. This undermines the reason for making a player wait for an opponent? Is this legal? If so, does anyone else see a problem with it, or am I alone in this view?

There are many players who utilize a program called an Auto Typer which continually presses the hot key to begin the turn when their opponent does. Of course, though, this requires that they have that game open, that they be near their computer to play shortly after turn has commenced.



It does not exist... full stop. End of story.


If I produced such a macro would you change your tune? To be clear, I have no interest in playing freestyle and for the benefit of the game I would not share said macro or ever use it against anybody. I just believe it would not be hard to write such a script.
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Re: Strongest Overall Player on CC?

Postby BigBallinStalin on Tue Sep 17, 2013 11:49 pm

rhp 1 wrote:
BigBallinStalin wrote:Since freestyle cheating via macros is unenforceable, then shouldn't all claims about the greatness of any freestyler be heavily discounted? (They're likely to be cheaters anyway, and it's not like they'd admit to using abusive macros).



haha....

definitely agree with this!


:roll:


That's not even an argument. Therefore, we must conclude that all claims of freestyle greatness must be scaled back to some degree. (I say a lot since they're likely to be cheaters/abusers).
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Re: Strongest Overall Player on CC?

Postby macbone on Wed Sep 18, 2013 3:51 am

I've never used an Autotyper, but yes, there are programs available to automatically press a key. They're not limited to CC. Here's one example: http://www.murgee.com/auto-typer/

Of course, you have to be able to be online at that moment to take the turn, but autotyper programs do in fact exist.
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Re: Strongest Overall Player on CC?

Postby DoomYoshi on Wed Sep 18, 2013 5:20 am

u guise r dum. Bruceswar obv. meant that freestyle games do not exist.
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Re: Strongest Overall Player on CC?

Postby loutil on Wed Sep 18, 2013 8:30 am

macbone wrote:I've never used an Autotyper, but yes, there are programs available to automatically press a key. They're not limited to CC. Here's one example: http://www.murgee.com/auto-typer/

Of course, you have to be able to be online at that moment to take the turn, but autotyper programs do in fact exist.

Actually, you do not have to be online at that moment. There are ways around that as well :D . Only your computer has to be online...
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Re: Strongest Overall Player on CC?

Postby macbone on Wed Sep 18, 2013 9:08 am

Well, I mean to make your moves. You'd still get your bonus and everything. =)
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Re: Strongest Overall Player on CC?

Postby loutil on Wed Sep 18, 2013 9:59 am

macbone wrote:Well, I mean to make your moves. You'd still get your bonus and everything. =)

If you know in advance what move or moves you wish to make then your macro can be programmed to do that as well. At least theoretically as I have not attempted to auto script a move...
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Re: Strongest Overall Player on CC?

Postby rhp 1 on Wed Sep 18, 2013 10:38 am

loutil wrote:
macbone wrote:Well, I mean to make your moves. You'd still get your bonus and everything. =)

If you know in advance what move or moves you wish to make then your macro can be programmed to do that as well. At least theoretically as I have not attempted to auto script a move...



I'd be surprised if anyone actually did this... a small, weighted object would do the trick with a lot less effort... and once again this is in reference to casual fs (generally farming) and speed fs where this macro has no use...
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