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CC Language Guidelines

Postby iAmCaffeine on Mon Sep 22, 2014 8:14 am

I just received a warning for this statement:

2014-09-20 14:11:16 - iAmCaffeine: Have you stopped whining like a faggot now?

I'm not disputing the fact that I received a warning based on a few people's interpretations of the word, but I think it's about time the community received official guidelines on what is allowed in game chat and what is not. Especially since I never directly called the accusing player anything, but people ignore the semantics of the English language.

I think the following quotes should assist in what I'm trying to say:

spudulica wrote:How many cases like this do we have to read through before CC issues a set of words you are not allowed to use?

What caff said is no worse than many recent cases that don't come to anything. So many words can be taken badly by one person and others couldn't care less.

You can call me anything and I couldn't case less. Faggot to me is not half as offensive as some of the recent cases I make a habit of reading. It's also a word with many reasons.

Publish some proper specific guidelines or just grow up and get to grips with people saying bad words when they are pissed off. I try to steer clear from full blown swearing rants but they happen from time to time, particularly on this site as we are all pretty well invested in the games we play.


betiko wrote:it's funny to see how this site works. You can say "I hope your children get cancer and die while your wife gets hit by a bus" in game chat to a family man; but you can't say "stop whinning like a faggot" to a straight dude. that one is offensive.


spudulica wrote:Oxford English definition - http://www.oxforddictionaries.com/defin ... ish/faggot

Urban Dictionary - http://www.urbandictionary.com/define.php?term=faggot

American wiki - http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Faggot_(slang) - NOTE doesn't say its offensive

Dictionary.com - http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/faggot - can be offensive not always also can be positive.

Just to illustrate my point with this word not being a cut and dry offensive word. Can be taken either way, this is most likely why caff steers away form using it but I can think of and have seen much worse on this site. Again a list please if punishments are going to be handed out. It would be nice to at least know when you are breaking a rule not constantly flirt with the unknown.


So how about it, can we get some guidelines on this?
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Re: CC Language Guidelines

Postby owenshooter on Mon Sep 22, 2014 8:36 am

um... the word you received the warning for is in the bigotry guidelines... soooo, i don't understand your confusion with receiving a warning for using a word that violates the sites bigotry guidelines? you lost me on this one...-_Jésus noir

what we have here, is... failure, to communicate...
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Re: CC Language Guidelines

Postby iAmCaffeine on Mon Sep 22, 2014 8:52 am

That's incorrect. The bigotry guidelines state the following:

Night Strike wrote:Bigotry includes racism, sexism, ageism, homophobia/sexual orientation bashing, religion bashing, lack of religion bashing, or wishing violence on any group of people, etc.

Bigotry takes into account historic events, emotional baggage and generally accepted associations with a term, phrase or intent - posting "White Power" in a topic has a history and is bigoted, posting "Green Power" makes you an environmentalist.

Bigotry will get your post edited/deleted and you will receive a disciplinary action from a mod. Bigotry, just avoid it. Just do it.


No specific words are mentioned and as the links above prove, the word being discussed is not a bigoted word, for the majority of people. That's not even my point here anyway; I got my warning and that's fine, I'm not disputing it.

What I am disputing is that a player gets warned for a possibly bigoted word, but not for statements far more offensive like betiko said:

betiko wrote:You can say "I hope your children get cancer and die while your wife gets hit by a bus" in game chat to a family man; but you can't say "stop whinning like a faggot" to a straight dude.


Clearer guidelines need to be established so players know what they're allowed to say, especially when words have more than one definition. Am I allowed to call someone retarded? I would assume not, but if I say that I wish they die a long, horrible death in a mental clinic then that's apparently acceptable. I think the vast majority would find the second statement more offensive, yet punishments would only be handed out for the former.

Also, I see religious bashing is included in the bigotry guidelines. Clearly this isn't enforced because religions are bashed on a frequent basis in the off topic forum and people are certainly not banned for it. Can we at least have some consistency?
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Re: CC Language Guidelines

Postby IcePack on Mon Sep 22, 2014 9:03 am

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Re: CC Language Guidelines

Postby iAmCaffeine on Mon Sep 22, 2014 9:18 am

IcePack wrote:http://www.conquerclub.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=7785#p2865163


Thank you for a pointless link.
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Re: CC Language Guidelines

Postby IcePack on Mon Sep 22, 2014 9:34 am

iAmCaffeine wrote:
IcePack wrote:http://www.conquerclub.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=7785#p2865163


Thank you for a pointless link.


You asked for CC to have Guidelines. CC has Guiselines.

You're welcome.
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Re: CC Language Guidelines

Postby iAmCaffeine on Mon Sep 22, 2014 10:01 am

IcePack wrote:
iAmCaffeine wrote:
IcePack wrote:http://www.conquerclub.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=7785#p2865163


Thank you for a pointless link.


You asked for CC to have Guidelines. CC has Guiselines.

You're welcome.


:lol:

I have indeed asked for clearer guidelines. I actually like this new interpretation of what CC currently has; guiselines! I think that's a very apt way of describing them, thank you.

However, if you'd bothered to read my original post properly you would realise I have taken the bigotry guidelines posted by Night Strike (linked to by Andy in the thread link you provided) and quoted them.
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Re: CC Language Guidelines

Postby IcePack on Mon Sep 22, 2014 10:29 am

I'm not disputing the fact that I received a warning based on a few people's interpretations of the word, but I think it's about time the community received official guidelines on what is allowed in game chat and what is not. Especially since I never directly called the accusing player anything, but people ignore the semantics of the English language.

So how about it, can we get some guidelines on this?


Have you read your OP? Quoted two spots from the OP. You're not asking for clearer guidelines. You're asking for Guidelines.
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Re: CC Language Guidelines

Postby iAmCaffeine on Mon Sep 22, 2014 10:49 am

IcePack wrote:
I'm not disputing the fact that I received a warning based on a few people's interpretations of the word, but I think it's about time the community received official guidelines on what is allowed in game chat and what is not. Especially since I never directly called the accusing player anything, but people ignore the semantics of the English language.

So how about it, can we get some guidelines on this?


Have you read your OP? Quoted two spots from the OP. You're not asking for clearer guidelines. You're asking for Guidelines.


Fair, but as we've just established what we currently have are more like guiselines and are not specific enough.
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Re: CC Language Guidelines

Postby rhp 1 on Mon Sep 22, 2014 11:07 am

I'm not sure if this is a serious post by caff.... I tend to think not. But to put my two cents in regardless, I'd say, its not the worst idea to have a specific list of words to not be used. Though in some ways I see it as sort of silly. Use of the term "faggot", though not offensive to me in the least, is obviously going to be offensive to some... As no one is going to believe ur referring to a pile of sticks... There are so many words nowadays, for better or worse, that are offensive. I don't get offended by words. I'm a grown man, and have better things to worry about than if someone calls me names. I also do not belong to many of the groups of people that have issues with hurtful words.... Im straight, male, white, etc... So not many bigoted, sexist, racist words apply to me... But for many, words hurt their feelings. To Caff's point, you can list words not to be used... And I'm fine with that... But there are so many other ways to hurt people's feelings with more subtle wording, than the use of banned words. Its hard to legislate context and suggestion. So in that? I think the vague guidelines we have, and the subsequent moderation of accusations brought forth, is the most effective way of dealing with the op's issue.
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Re: CC Language Guidelines

Postby Gweeedo on Mon Sep 22, 2014 12:51 pm

To my understanding it Is OK to use foul language on this site.
I have seen it many times.
Only when somebody reports it, do you get rebuked.
The word ''Cunt'' is a popular one, I think you will have better luck using it (not much chance it will get reported).
Note; Realize, Homosexuals can get very emotional when it comes to name calling.
You can call your friends a fag, you can call yourself a fag...don't dare call a homosexual a fag (unless you yourself are a known homosexual).
Yes, I think it is a bit silly and I am sure most homosexuals feel it silly too.
Even though names might not hurt your feelings, we have women and children on this site, you would not likely call them any names?

Use a little common sense, you'll figure it out.
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Re: George Carlin Language Guidelines

Postby owenshooter on Mon Sep 22, 2014 1:10 pm

rhp 1 wrote:I'm not sure if this is a serious post by caff.... I tend to think not.

i believe he is very serious, having followed the recent RASH of reports in C&A concerning his language/bigotry in game chat...

rhp 1 wrote:But to put my two cents in regardless, I'd say, its not the worst idea to have a specific list of words to not be used. Though in some ways I see it as sort of silly. Use of the term "faggot", though not offensive to me in the least, is obviously going to be offensive to some... As no one is going to believe ur referring to a pile of sticks... There are so many words nowadays, for better or worse, that are offensive. I don't get offended by words. I'm a grown man, and have better things to worry about than if someone calls me names. I also do not belong to many of the groups of people that have issues with hurtful words.... Im straight, male, white, etc... So not many bigoted, sexist, racist words apply to me... But for many, words hurt their feelings. To Caff's point, you can list words not to be used... And I'm fine with that... But there are so many other ways to hurt people's feelings with more subtle wording, than the use of banned words. Its hard to legislate context and suggestion. So in that? I think the vague guidelines we have, and the subsequent moderation of accusations brought forth, is the most effective way of dealing with the op's issue.


the portion in bold is spot on... the portion in red is still the best solution to the matter... i do not think that anyone on this site would wholeheartedly going into a game, call someone the names that the OP has called them, and not expect to be punished in some manner. now, i do concede to the OP that the user in question and many of those that filed the recent reports in C&A, did indeed have an agenda... however, the OP is smart enough and seasoned enough to know when he is being pursued, goaded, baited into taking another action to satisfy those that were so eagerly posting complaint after complaint after complaint. i mean, come on, people were searching his games in which they weren't even involved, seeking evidence to get him banned... at the end of the day, we all know the words that we should and should not use against other members on this site, and if we don't, the moderators are here to clear that up. there was a thread in which he could defend his words and actions and an "impartial" moderator ruled against him... it was fair... we don't need george carlin to rise from the dead (like me) and hand the mods a list of words that can not be used on CC... the black jesus has spoken and agreed with rhp 1...-Jésus noir

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Re: CC Language Guidelines

Postby Army of GOD on Mon Sep 22, 2014 2:09 pm

I'm not sure where I stand on the issue.


On one hand, being offended by something on the internet is beyond ridiculous. Seriously, I could google "man getting raped and then beheaded" and there would probably be a video of it somewhere on the interwebs.

On the other hand, iAmCaffiene is insufferable.
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Re: CC Language Guidelines

Postby a6mzero on Mon Sep 22, 2014 3:51 pm

Faux outrage over language here is the latest rage.
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Re: CC Language Guidelines

Postby DoomYoshi on Mon Sep 22, 2014 5:53 pm

a6mzero wrote:Faux outrage over language here is the latest rage.


By Jesus’ day, the Jews already considered the name Yhwh too sacred to be pronounced outside the Temple.
I will not stand for an America where reckless bankers and suicide bombers can make a mockery of our promise for tomorrow.
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Re: CC Language Guidelines

Postby BoganGod on Mon Sep 22, 2014 6:38 pm

iAmCaffeine wrote:
IcePack wrote:http://www.conquerclub.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=7785#p2865163


Thank you for a pointless link.


You have stated multiple times that you don't like reading anything that you think you may not like....... If you had followed the link IcePack so kindly left. Then clicked the link within that link. Taking you to http://www.conquerclub.com/forum/viewtopic.php?p=1759436#p1759436 Which if you could be bothered reading, STATES VERY BLUNTLY THAT HOMOPHOBIA is not allowed. There is even a bigotry heading there.
Your welcome.
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Re: CC Language Guidelines

Postby iAmCaffeine on Tue Sep 23, 2014 2:41 am

BoganGod wrote:
iAmCaffeine wrote:
IcePack wrote:http://www.conquerclub.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=7785#p2865163


Thank you for a pointless link.


You have stated multiple times that you don't like reading anything that you think you may not like....... If you had followed the link IcePack so kindly left. Then clicked the link within that link. Taking you to http://www.conquerclub.com/forum/viewtopic.php?p=1759436#p1759436 Which if you could be bothered reading, STATES VERY BLUNTLY THAT HOMOPHOBIA is not allowed. There is even a bigotry heading there.
Your welcome.


I have never stated that. I followed the link that IcePack so kindly left and I clicked the link within that link, which took me to Night Strike's post where the current bigotry guiselines are outlined, which I did bother reading and even quoted in my original post.

You're welcome.
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Re: CC Language Guidelines

Postby tzor on Tue Sep 23, 2014 3:26 pm

The biggest problem is that text always needs to be understood in its context. Simple word bans/filters often result in silly overkill.

Going into old fart mode. There was a great example on the very old (before the internet) IBM message boards where the simple word filter would censor out the then Prime Minister of Japan, merely because somewhere in his name was a four letter word for manure. Stupid word filter.

show


Moving slightly into the internet age, the Dungeons and Dragons forums used to ban the four letter word for a male chicken. Seriously, what the *BEEP* do you with a crossbow? The fact that they took one of the biggest weapons of D&D out of discussion because the verb could also be used as a dirty noun is also seriously stupid.
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Re: CC Language Guidelines

Postby Buffaloed on Thu Sep 25, 2014 7:27 pm

I agree with Caff that a list of words would indeed be helpful. CC states that the site is "liberal on coarse language". Would it have been OK for him to use a different word? How about Asshole? Cunt? Those are coarse, but are they acceptable? I've been called those names in chat by some of the more juvenile members around here - usually with the "f**king" in front of them. Typically it's because they didn't like that I attacked them when there were weak. Should I report them for flaming me? CC won't care. If they did, they would see a significant drop in revenue because they would lose a LOT of players for swearing in chat. And don't forget, this site is privately owned. As they say, money talks s**t walks.

Personally I think the most offensive aspect of his slur was that people who might self-identify with the word in question might think that Caff was actually implying that the target of his comment was a member of their group, which would be a very grievous insult against them indeed.
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Re: CC Language Guidelines

Postby owenshooter on Thu Sep 25, 2014 7:50 pm

Buffaloed wrote:Personally I think the most offensive aspect of his slur was that people who might self-identify with the word in question might think that Caff was actually implying that the target of his comment was a member of their group, which would be a very grievous insult against them indeed.

personally, i find it highly amusing that anyone is going to defend the use of that word in this day and age... the black jesus is bewildered...-Jésus noir
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Re: CC Language Guidelines

Postby TeeGee on Thu Sep 25, 2014 10:00 pm

Apart from context issues,the mods also have to discuss cultural and language issues that may arise. We have many many words in English which mean very different things to different cultures/regions. I have tried explaining that to alot of people who can't seem to see past what they perceive to be the meaning.

As for the current guidelines, I have been looking at them and pushing to have them simplified, but also clear as to what we will not accept, they are very open to interpretation and I don't think that they should be.
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Re: CC Language Guidelines

Postby iAmCaffeine on Fri Sep 26, 2014 4:07 am

TeeGee wrote:As for the current guidelines, I have been looking at them and pushing to have them simplified, but also clear as to what we will not accept, they are very open to interpretation and I don't think that they should be.


This is all I'm asking for.

owenshooter wrote:
Buffaloed wrote:Personally I think the most offensive aspect of his slur was that people who might self-identify with the word in question might think that Caff was actually implying that the target of his comment was a member of their group, which would be a very grievous insult against them indeed.

personally, i find it highly amusing that anyone is going to defend the use of that word in this day and age... the black jesus is bewildered...-Jésus noir


I find it highly amusing that anyone can go around an online forum calling themselves the black Jesus, or Jesus noir, in this day and age.
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Re: CC Language Guidelines

Postby rhp 1 on Fri Sep 26, 2014 7:30 am

Caff. U know I love ya bro. Just shut up. Who cares.
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Re: CC Language Guidelines

Postby owenshooter on Fri Sep 26, 2014 10:23 am

iAmCaffeine wrote:I find it highly amusing that anyone can go around an online forum calling themselves the black Jesus, or Jesus noir, in this day and age.

so amusing, in fact, that aaron mcgruder stole my schtick and took it right to comedy central... no outrage over that on my part, i am honoured... the black jesus has owned you again...-Jésus negro

Just don't use the F word, and they make shows about you...
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Re: CC Language Guidelines

Postby Buffaloed on Fri Sep 26, 2014 11:18 am

Buffaloed wrote:CC states that the site is "liberal on coarse language". Would it have been OK for him to use a different word? How about Asshole? Cunt? Those are coarse, but are they acceptable? I've been called those names in chat by some of the more juvenile members around here - usually with the "f**king" in front of them. Typically it's because they didn't like that I attacked them when there were weak. Should I report them for flaming me?


I was on a different thread with Caff, and he cleared up what was confusing me. Caff made the point that the terms above (asshole, cunt, etc.) might be offensive aren't considered bigotry, while his use of the term "faggott" was viewed as bigotry by the mods, so he got a warning. I can see that - and in my previous comment I was not trying to defend what happened - just seeking to understand.

So I've come up with what I'll call the "Caff Test" to determine if a word should go on the "list" that Caff has asked for. All we need to do is substitute any potentially offensive term into what Caff said, and determine if a group of people might consider it to be bigotry.

Caff's original comment was: 2014-09-20 14:11:16 - iAmCaffeine: Have you stopped whining like a faggot now?

So here are a few examples to see how the test might work. For each word, ask yourself if the sentence could be considered bigotry.

Have you stopped whining like an ASSHOLE or CUNT now? - probably not bigotry, don't put any kind of standard obscenity on the list.
Have you stopped whining like a JEW, CHRISTIAN, MUSLIM, ATHEIST, ETC. now? - religious bigotry, put all religions on the list
Have you stopped whining like a HONKY now? - racial bigotry, put it on the list along with the names of ALL racial groups
Have you stopped whining like a RETARD now? bigotry based on disability, put it on the list along with all maladies and afflictions (did not choose my own class - sorry).
Have you stopped whining like a MANCHESTER UNITED FAN now? could be bigotry, depending on how far you want to go with this. . . .
Have you stopped whining like a BLACK JESUS now? looks like it hits two categories to me.

I can think of lots of words that would make the list. Just substitute any term that describes any group of people - whether it is based on religion, race, ethnicity, gender, sexual preference, etc.

I'm not trying to be a smartass here, or at least not too much. (Have you stopped whining like a SMARTASS now? - not bigotry. Whew!) Just trying to point out that creating a list of words wouldn't be hard to do, and might be worth the investment of time. There was a previous comment in this thread about how the current guidelines are vague - TeeGee said "they are very open to interpretation and I don't think that they should be." I agree.

So let's make a list. We could use the wisdom of the crowd. Anybody could add a word if they personally would feel that using it would be bigotry.
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