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INTO THE DEEP (COMPLETE - Mafia Win !!)

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Re: INTO THE DEEP (Day 5)

Postby strike wolf on Mon Apr 29, 2019 1:37 pm

I believe Pika is town. Tobi redirected him and tried to get him lynched even before it was provoked. Only reaso n I see Tobi doing thst to a mafia member is if he didn't know Pika was scum. Thst would go against what I know of the traitor role.

I guess it's possible I healed Buj. I targeted myself (since TX said he was going to heal Buj.) I was told that I found someone who had been poisoned and healed them. I guess this could be Buj as the pm was kinda obscure (It referred to swimming through chum) but didn't say anything to specifically indicate I was redirected or busdriven.
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Re: INTO THE DEEP (Day 5)

Postby chapcrap on Mon Apr 29, 2019 1:46 pm

Ragian wrote:Whom do you find more scummy, chap? TX or Blacky?

I don't know which one is more. I think they both are a slightly. It sounds go me like blacky's actions probably got redirected last night if his night action is true. That doesn't fit at all with what Skoffin claimed and it doesn't make sense that Skoffin would leave out a passive healing ability and substitute an attacking ability. I'm not sure I really buy TX's claim as a healer, but I like that wants to do things that I want to do.

I'm not sure the difference between my feelings on them mean anything at this point.

@Pika No, I don't think your plan is good. Again. I'm not changing my mind. Would you vote for Skoffin or Ragian?

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Re: INTO THE DEEP (Day 5)

Postby chapcrap on Mon Apr 29, 2019 1:49 pm

strike wolf wrote:I believe Pika is town. Tobi redirected him and tried to get him lynched even before it was provoked. Only reaso n I see Tobi doing thst to a mafia member is if he didn't know Pika was scum. Thst would go against what I know of the traitor role.

I guess it's possible I healed Buj. I targeted myself (since TX said he was going to heal Buj.) I was told that I found someone who had been poisoned and healed them. I guess this could be Buj as the pm was kinda obscure (It referred to swimming through chum) but didn't say anything to specifically indicate I was redirected or busdriven.

In my mod given N4 clusterf*ck night action, I redirected any actions to you. I'll say that much. I won't say who they were switched with. Unless someone claims to have visited that person in the night or the other redirector claims have more information.

And fine sw, what you say about Pika makes sense.
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Re: INTO THE DEEP (Day 5)

Postby Pikanchion on Mon Apr 29, 2019 2:23 pm

chapcrap wrote:@Pika No, I don't think your plan is good. Again. I'm not changing my mind. Would you vote for Skoffin or Ragian?

Why? Do you dislike my specific implementation or the idea of a mass claim?

chapcrap wrote:Would you vote for Skoffin or Ragian?

Maybe, the only person I can't imagine voting for without some sort of drastic revelation is BuJaber at this point. This is more or less why I want a mass claim.
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Re: INTO THE DEEP (Day 5)

Postby chapcrap on Mon Apr 29, 2019 2:44 pm

Pikanchion wrote:
chapcrap wrote:@Pika No, I don't think your plan is good. Again. I'm not changing my mind. Would you vote for Skoffin or Ragian?

Why? Do you dislike my specific implementation or the idea of a mass claim?

chapcrap wrote:Would you vote for Skoffin or Ragian?

Maybe, the only person I can't imagine voting for without some sort of drastic revelation is BuJaber at this point. This is more or less why I want a mass claim.

What I mean is, which of those two would you choose to vote for if you had to vote for one of them?

Why do you believe BuJ is town so much? It hasn't been confirmed in any way...

The mass claim helps the scum more than the town I think. I think that everyone has basically already claimed anyway. So, aside from the information being more helpful to scum, I also view it as a waste of time.
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Re: INTO THE DEEP (Day 5)

Postby Ragian on Mon Apr 29, 2019 3:00 pm

@chap, am I to understand that you can't pick between TX and blacky?
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Re: INTO THE DEEP (Day 5)

Postby Pikanchion on Mon Apr 29, 2019 3:22 pm

chapcrap wrote:
chapcrap wrote:
chapcrap wrote:Would you vote for Skoffin or Ragian?

Maybe, the only person I can't imagine voting for without some sort of drastic revelation is BuJaber at this point. This is more or less why I want a mass claim.

What I mean is, which of those two would you choose to vote for if you had to vote for one of them?

I would want a full claim from each of them, and from several others (including at the very least both your and ZaBeast's actions last night) to make a decision on this. It is far easier for any of the relevant parties to change their story to fit any accusations I make prior to them claiming, and so I feel it would be a poor decision to elaborate on my reasoning for or against either one yet.

chapcrap wrote:Why do you believe BuJ is town so much? It hasn't been confirmed in any way...

The mass claim helps the scum more than the town I think. I think that everyone has basically already claimed anyway. So, aside from the information being more helpful to scum, I also view it as a waste of time.

BuJaber was confirmed by aage, and later by me (albeit with some possible discrepancies). I cannot explain fully why I believe BuJaber Town without also explaining what I know about BuJaber's role, nor can I actually be 100% certain of my own confirmatory result without knowing exactly what happened N2, the closest I can get to certainty on that is from checking claims both against my own information and the other claims. The waste of time argument makes no sense from the perspective of the game; it is the beginning of the day and we have no time limit, there is also plenty we do not know. To make that argument from the perspective of you as a person outside of the game is mere selfishness.

You are saying on the one hand that we know everything (apart from things that will help scum... somehow?) even though at least two players have not claimed even their primary action, while on the other asking for more information from the very people who have not fully claimed.
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Re: INTO THE DEEP (Day 5)

Postby chapcrap on Mon Apr 29, 2019 3:23 pm

Ragian wrote:@chap, am I to understand that you can't pick between TX and blacky?

I think it's a coin flip. If they were in the place that you and Skoffin are in for me, I think that I would vote for TX.
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Re: INTO THE DEEP (Day 5)

Postby chapcrap on Mon Apr 29, 2019 3:27 pm

Pika, you could answer the question without revealing information...

How did aage confirm that information? I do not believe that was confirmed. If you have additional information that you don't want to let us in on, then fine. But BuJ has not been confirmed. I'm not sure why he would be trusted more than strike wolf. A role confirmed healer.
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Re: INTO THE DEEP (Day 5)

Postby Pikanchion on Mon Apr 29, 2019 3:49 pm

chapcrap wrote:Pika, you could answer the question without revealing information...

How did aage confirm that information? I do not believe that was confirmed. If you have additional information that you don't want to let us in on, then fine. But BuJ has not been confirmed. I'm not sure why he would be trusted more than strike wolf. A role confirmed healer.

I already answered as best I could without revealing further information yesterday.
I can say for certain that aage believed BuJaber was Town on account of his night actions results, this much was claimed directly by aage. I can reasonably infer from my own information that aage wiretapped BuJaber N2, and saw the same night result for BuJaber's action that I saw, this much I explained yesterday.

Need I remind you that we not one but two claimed Healers, both of which I have claimed to be able to partially confirm*? Normally yes, I would trust a claimed (and at least semi-proven) Doctor, but normally we don't also have two claimed Doctors who both seem to be telling at least the partial truth. The verification of BuJaber's role relies primarily on the word of a confirmed Townie (aage), and on what I believe to be fairly conclusive evidence of my own. The verification of each Healer relies more on inferance, and partial evidence of my own.

*If you don't wish to read through, the exact quote is near the bottom of that post: "I and (presumably) strike wolf also, can at least verify that TX AG 90 knows the successful healing feedback. I also know that blacky365 was not lying about being poisoned, and that somebody healed blacky365 on night 2."
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Re: INTO THE DEEP (Day 5)

Postby chapcrap on Mon Apr 29, 2019 4:28 pm

Pikanchion wrote:
chapcrap wrote:Pika, you could answer the question without revealing information...

How did aage confirm that information? I do not believe that was confirmed. If you have additional information that you don't want to let us in on, then fine. But BuJ has not been confirmed. I'm not sure why he would be trusted more than strike wolf. A role confirmed healer.

I already answered as best I could without revealing further information yesterday.
I can say for certain that aage believed BuJaber was Town on account of his night actions results, this much was claimed directly by aage. I can reasonably infer from my own information that aage wiretapped BuJaber N2, and saw the same night result for BuJaber's action that I saw, this much I explained yesterday.

Need I remind you that we not one but two claimed Healers, both of which I have claimed to be able to partially confirm*? Normally yes, I would trust a claimed (and at least semi-proven) Doctor, but normally we don't also have two claimed Doctors who both seem to be telling at least the partial truth. The verification of BuJaber's role relies primarily on the word of a confirmed Townie (aage), and on what I believe to be fairly conclusive evidence of my own. The verification of each Healer relies more on inferance, and partial evidence of my own.

*If you don't wish to read through, the exact quote is near the bottom of that post: "I and (presumably) strike wolf also, can at least verify that TX AG 90 knows the successful healing feedback. I also know that blacky365 was not lying about being poisoned, and that somebody healed blacky365 on night 2."

I don't think TX has been confirmed by anyone... I'm sure where it says that in your post. strike wolf's healing abilities were confirmed by people and not refuted by TX. TX only has a claim, no confirmation.

As for aage stating BuJ is town, I believe that he believed that. But, at the same time, Tobi is master redirector. I'm a busdriver. ZaB has claimed a redirector role as well... I didn't do anything with aage or BuJ, but one of two could have, which lessens the believability. 3 roles like this is a lot. ZaB's claim of redirection doesn't sit well with me because of Tobi's title and already scum leanings. So, it could be that ZaB is lying and BuJ is town. Those are mutually exclusive. But, I do think ZaB lying make it more likely. So, what I am saying is that from my perspective, BuJ is not confirmed. Alignment or role. If scum believe him to be a confirmed town, why wouldn't have just gone ahead and killed him already? They've had a couple of nights to do it?

Anyway, that was just a lot of rambling thoughts typed out.
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Re: INTO THE DEEP (Day 5)

Postby Pikanchion on Mon Apr 29, 2019 6:36 pm

chapcrap wrote:I don't think TX has been confirmed by anyone... I'm sure where it says that in your post. strike wolf's healing abilities were confirmed by people and not refuted by TX. TX only has a claim, no confirmation.

As for aage stating BuJ is town, I believe that he believed that. But, at the same time, Tobi is master redirector. I'm a busdriver. ZaB has claimed a redirector role as well... I didn't do anything with aage or BuJ, but one of two could have, which lessens the believability. 3 roles like this is a lot. ZaB's claim of redirection doesn't sit well with me because of Tobi's title and already scum leanings. So, it could be that ZaB is lying and BuJ is town. Those are mutually exclusive. But, I do think ZaB lying make it more likely. So, what I am saying is that from my perspective, BuJ is not confirmed. Alignment or role. If scum believe him to be a confirmed town, why wouldn't have just gone ahead and killed him already? They've had a couple of nights to do it?

Anyway, that was just a lot of rambling thoughts typed out.

TX AG 90 knows the wording of the message one receives upon healing another, who could possibly know this other than a Healer, somebody in private conversation with a Healer, or somebody with Wiretapping capabilities?

The BuJaber situation cannot be further explained without certain claims being made, or require me to make statements pertaining to other players I would prefer not to until certain players have claimed.

Why hasn't BuJaber been killed? Well... Why wasn't <almost any other player> killed? Most people have claimed what would be powerful Town roles, but Scum have only been successful once in killing via Night Kill. Besides, if BuJaber is Town then we have to believe the poisoning did indeed happen, and which night did that happen again? Oh yes, it was the night that began literally the post after aage confirmed BuJaber's alignment. Speaking of aage, did aage's claim not sound like a Cop claim prior to the role flip? -Why would Scum target confirmed Town of unknown role over the presumed Cop who did the confirming?
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Re: INTO THE DEEP (Day 5)

Postby BuJaber on Mon Apr 29, 2019 11:21 pm

Well I nominated blacky and blacky refused to add more to his claim.

And I told everyone that the day start message from the mod literally tells everyone that they were not able to choose their target, this has been confirmed by several players already who stated they ended up at someone other than who they targetted, including me. But blacky still seems to think they targetted skoffin and I don't know if that's him telling us he got confirmation from the mod that it was skoffin who wasn't his target, or if he's claiming he targetted skoffin and ended up actually targetting skoffin.

He also didn't full claim everything including actions of all nights in one clear post which is the whole point of Pika's exercise.

So what is the next step?
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Re: INTO THE DEEP (Day 5)

Postby BuJaber on Mon Apr 29, 2019 11:31 pm

chapcrap wrote:I didn't do anything with aage or BuJ, but one of two could have, which lessens the believability. 3 roles like this is a lot. ZaB's claim of redirection doesn't sit well with me because of Tobi's title and already scum leanings. So, it could be that ZaB is lying and BuJ is town.



This is exactly the point.
Nobody claimed they targetted aage that night, so if I'm not confirmed, they have to be lying also but you're not pushing them.

Also nobody has claimed that pika saw their night result instead of mine, so if I were lying about that, somebody should know this.

So to an outsider, I'm either town 100%, or I'm scum with BOTH pika AND 1 of ZB/Tobi.

Now Tobi was a half scum. He probably wanted to get killed to become full scum if he was one of the normal variations of traitor. But I don't know which variation of traitor the mod has given him. I also believe now that he was the one who redirected me night 2 and lied about it/didn't know he targetted me. Since he claims unsuccessful result instead of claiming he ended up at someone else, I'm inclined to believe that he did in fact redirect me and lied about it.

So it's a solid assumption that Tobi didn't target aage. Which since you claim you didn't also, means the ONLY WAY I CAN BE SCUM IS WITH PIKA AND ZABEAST BOTH TOGETHER.

That is why I am confirmed town. Or at least it proves that if you were actually not believing me you would have been focusing on pushing only in (me/ZB/Pika).

You recently said you see now why pika is likely town when strike explained it, so if you're not lying I really should be confirmed in your eyes.
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Re: INTO THE DEEP (Day 5)

Postby Ragian on Tue Apr 30, 2019 12:33 am

BuJaber wrote:Well I nominated blacky and blacky refused to add more to his claim.

And I told everyone that the day start message from the mod literally tells everyone that they were not able to choose their target, this has been confirmed by several players already who stated they ended up at someone other than who they targetted, including me. But blacky still seems to think they targetted skoffin and I don't know if that's him telling us he got confirmation from the mod that it was skoffin who wasn't his target, or if he's claiming he targetted skoffin and ended up actually targetting skoffin.

He also didn't full claim everything including actions of all nights in one clear post which is the whole point of Pika's exercise.

So what is the next step?

Well, one of TX, Chap, and blacky is a healer, and between the two or three (pending mod confirmation on semantics), there is scum per my night action. I'll explain later when at a computer. But this could be what's next. I'd say that TX is the healer, so that scum would be between Chap and Blacky (or both), but I need the mod to reply to me first.
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Re: INTO THE DEEP (Day 5)

Postby Pikanchion on Tue Apr 30, 2019 6:13 am

BuJaber wrote:Well I nominated blacky and blacky refused to add more to his claim.

So what is the next step?

You skipped a couple of steps.

—First, people agree to the plan (6+ players)
—Second, somebody is chosen to make the first nomination (general agreement or first past the post vote)
—Third, first claimer is nominated
—Fourth, first claimer claims and nominates a second or is lynched
—Fifth, second claimer claims and nominates a third or is lynched
—etc.

Jumping straight to the third step and expecting the fourth does not work because it relies upon (at the very least) agreement on the first step.
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Re: INTO THE DEEP (Day 5)

Postby blacky365 on Tue Apr 30, 2019 8:42 am

Pikanchion wrote:
BuJaber wrote:Well I nominated blacky and blacky refused to add more to his claim.

So what is the next step?

You skipped a couple of steps.

—First, people agree to the plan (6+ players)
—Second, somebody is chosen to make the first nomination (general agreement or first past the post vote)
—Third, first claimer is nominated
—Fourth, first claimer claims and nominates a second or is lynched
—Fifth, second claimer claims and nominates a third or is lynched
—etc.

Jumping straight to the third step and expecting the fourth does not work because it relies upon (at the very least) agreement on the first step.


I have no problem with this plan and more than happy to share all when my turn comes.

However, I fear that the biggest issue we will have with this multi step plan is the time it will take to agree on anything.
First step requires a nomination for an individual and then 5 others to join the vote.

To get a general consensus for this may take the entire day and then we will have learned nothing.
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Re: INTO THE DEEP (Day 5)

Postby Pikanchion on Tue Apr 30, 2019 8:54 am

blacky365 wrote:I have no problem with this plan and more than happy to share all when my turn comes.

However, I fear that the biggest issue we will have with this multi step plan is the time it will take to agree on anything.
First step requires a nomination for an individual and then 5 others to join the vote.

To get a general consensus for this may take the entire day and then we will have learned nothing.

Time should not be a factor to consider unless people keep pushing against the plan to the point a deadline is announced.
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Once the plan is in motion and we are clearly in the process of doing something that will yield results we should not have a deadline imposed upon us.
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Re: INTO THE DEEP (Day 5)

Postby Ragian on Tue Apr 30, 2019 8:57 am

Blacky is not a healer. He would have said as much. Chap is not a healer. He would have said as much. TX must be the healer. Therefore - and I have the mod's word here - one of Blacky and Chap is scum. Moreover, TX is town.
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Re: INTO THE DEEP (Day 5)

Postby blacky365 on Tue Apr 30, 2019 9:11 am

Pikanchion wrote:
blacky365 wrote:I have no problem with this plan and more than happy to share all when my turn comes.

However, I fear that the biggest issue we will have with this multi step plan is the time it will take to agree on anything.
First step requires a nomination for an individual and then 5 others to join the vote.

To get a general consensus for this may take the entire day and then we will have learned nothing.

Time should not be a factor to consider unless people keep pushing against the plan to the point a deadline is announced.
Razorvich wrote:
  • Lengths of days depends on us. Usually they are indefinite until the game starts dragging, and then there will be an enforced deadline.

Once the plan is in motion and we are clearly in the process of doing something that will yield results we should not have a deadline imposed upon us.


ok great... if we are allowed as much time as we need then im fine with this.

Ragian wrote:Blacky is not a healer. He would have said as much. Chap is not a healer. He would have said as much. TX must be the healer. Therefore - and I have the mod's word here - one of Blacky and Chap is scum. Moreover, TX is town.


Correct, I am not a healer... I have never claimed to be.
Chap, im not sure about
TX claimed to be a healer.

Rage, are you saying you have an investigative role?
Going by what you say, I know I am not scum, so that leaves only Chap as scum... but I wouldnt want to upset Pikas plan by debating this!
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Re: INTO THE DEEP (Day 5)

Postby blacky365 on Tue Apr 30, 2019 9:25 am

Also, Rage... does this mean that you had a result from last night?
I only ask because I was called in to question earlier for saying i had a result.
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Re: INTO THE DEEP (Day 5)

Postby Ragian on Tue Apr 30, 2019 10:29 am

I had a result, indeed, and - as perhaps you have seen me say before today - I was, like SW (I think?) - told that I did not go to my original targets. Instead I received random targets, but these targets were mentioned to me.

And yes, I used my Bonus Night Ability, which was an investigative action. I investigated you three, and because there was a healer present, I investigated the remaining two (of whom there is one scum). Had there been no healer present, I would have poisoned two out of the three 8-[

Therefore, I chose SW (strongly believing he is a healer), blacky (something stoof out), and Pika (I've been suspicious of Pika for a long time), but only blacky remained one of my targets after tonights clusterfudge.
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Re: INTO THE DEEP (Day 5)

Postby blacky365 on Tue Apr 30, 2019 12:30 pm

Ragian wrote:I had a result, indeed, and - as perhaps you have seen me say before today - I was, like SW (I think?) - told that I did not go to my original targets. Instead I received random targets, but these targets were mentioned to me.

And yes, I used my Bonus Night Ability, which was an investigative action. I investigated you three, and because there was a healer present, I investigated the remaining two (of whom there is one scum). Had there been no healer present, I would have poisoned two out of the three 8-[

Therefore, I chose SW (strongly believing he is a healer), blacky (something stoof out), and Pika (I've been suspicious of Pika for a long time), but only blacky remained one of my targets after tonights clusterfudge.


2 points...
1, I’m glad you investigated me, I am confident that anyone investigating me will find me to be town. although I’m disappointed you had a scum in the mix so I have not actually been cleared.

2. Slightly confused where you say you targeted me but the result was random!
Which was it? A targeted investigation or a random pick?
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Re: INTO THE DEEP (Day 5)

Postby strike wolf on Tue Apr 30, 2019 12:59 pm

My role PM didn't specifically mention being redirected. Just that I was out and saw the chum and sharks (presumably) and went for cover. There I saw someone poisoned and healed them. I had targeted myself last night so I had assumed that it could just a weird wording for healing myself (I've yet to have two nights with the same feedback from the mod) but with Buj healed it seems I was redirected to target him or busdriven.
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Re: INTO THE DEEP (Day 5)

Postby TX AG 90 on Tue Apr 30, 2019 1:07 pm

strike wolf wrote:My role PM didn't specifically mention being redirected. Just that I was out and saw the chum and sharks (presumably) and went for cover. There I saw someone poisoned and healed them. I had targeted myself last night so I had assumed that it could just a weird wording for healing myself (I've yet to have two nights with the same feedback from the mod) but with Buj healed it seems I was redirected to target him or busdriven.


Weird,

Our abilities are slightly different. Last night I chose to protect myself. I have to choose to Protect OR Heal.

I guess your abilities are folded into one. You target someone and they are either protected or healed. Is that correct?
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