Vanilla Elementary Mafia - TOWN WINS!

[DirtyDishSoap]

And if it is an all vanilla game, which I'm pretty sure it is, then the claim can't be countered and scum have free reign to claim whatever.

I did mention that if i was wrong, one of the three of you are clearly not who you say you are.

[DirtyDishSoap]

This isn't going anywhere.
You and i will be at an impass for time memorial.
You think I'm scum, i think you're scum.

If youre a cop and this "doc" lynch goes through, feel free to investigate me.

[degaston]

And if it is an all vanilla game, which I'm pretty sure it is, then the claim can't be countered and scum have free reign to claim whatever.

I did mention that if i was wrong, one of the three of you are clearly not who you say you are.

If your reasoning is that this is an all-vanilla game, then you need to lynch all three of us. Otherwise, you should admit that it's not an all-vanilla game, and just drop it.

[DirtyDishSoap]

I won't.

[degaston]

This isn't going anywhere.
You and i will be at an impass for time memorial.
You think I'm scum, i think you're scum.

If youre a cop and this "doc" lynch goes through, feel free to investigate me.

I don't actually think you're scum. (though you are helping them)
I don't think scum usually tunnel like this.
If the doc lynch goes through, then I will be the night kill, and there will be no more investigations.

[degaston]

I won't.

So you think there are three scum?
And Ragian chose a setup with only a 20% chance of town winning?
And all the scum have claimed power rolls?

Because if any of us are telling the truth, then this is not an all-vanilla game, and if you won't admit it, then you're just being obstinate.

[DirtyDishSoap]

Inactivity is not alignment indictive. You should know this.
And because I'm calling BS on power roles in a vanilla game, that's also scummy? What? Lol. Okay.

You're not scummy because of what i-andre did. You're scummy because you want to lynch the town's power roles.
How many scum do you think there are in this game?
Three people have claimed or soft-claimed non-vanilla roles. Either we're all scum, or you're being an idiot.

Oof, name calling, love it.
11 players started. There's going to be at least 2. 3 is really hard to justify.
It isn't far fetched to say that there isn't power roles. Whether you want to call me an idiot for it or not, a doctor cannot target himself.

I'll break this down further.

Darin - Doc
Dega - Cop
Extreme - Vanilla (N1 kill)
Chana - Vanilla Townie (Claim)
Traf - Vanilla Townie (Claim)
Myself - Vanilla Townie (Claim)
Max - Vanilla Townie (D3 Lynched)
Fusi - Soft Claim Unknown
Pixar - Vanilla Townie (Claim)
Strike - Vanilla Townie (N3 Killed)
Duke - Can't find if he claimed or not.

I'm not going to back down from the power roles. And having 3 town PR's is just as much BS as 3 scum. Either I'm outright wrong about this being pure vanilla, or one of you is lying about your role.

[DirtyDishSoap]

Here. Read this. This is for everyone.

https://wiki.mafiascum.net/index.php?title=Doctor

[degaston]

I'm not going to back down from the power roles. And having 3 town PR's is just as much BS as 3 scum. Either I'm outright wrong about this being pure vanilla, or one of you is lying about your role.

No. There is no gray area here.
Either you're outright wrong about this being pure vanilla, or ALL of us are lying about our roles.
Because if any of us are not lying, then it is not pure vanilla.

So do you think all of us are lying?
Or you're wrong?

[DirtyDishSoap]

Yeah! I think you're all lying! What wasn't clear about this?!

[degaston]

Yeah! I think you're all lying! What wasn't clear about this?!

What isn't clear is why you're voting for Darin instead of me?

I've cleared him, so if he's scum, then I'm definitely scum. But what if I'm scum who "cleared" a townie to gain trust? Then when he flips town, you will have confirmed me as a cop, and ensured that you'll be lynched next. You will have fallen right into my trap!

So put your money where your mouth is. Lynch the town cop and see where it gets you.
Though first, maybe you should try to explain to everyone why three scum, who started out with an 80% chance of winning if we did nothing to draw attention to ourselves, decided to cook up this wild role-claim scheme when we had no idea if we would be counter-claimed.

Otherwise, forget about the three of us, and look for scum among the unknowns.

[DirtyDishSoap]

Here. Read this. This is for everyone.

https://wiki.mafiascum.net/index.php?title=Doctor

[DirtyDishSoap]

Hey that's fine, if he gets lynched, flips town, I'll accept the responsibility. You could also just investigate me the following night to, to confirm that I am town. That is, if you're cop. Just sayin.

[degaston]

Hey that's fine, if he gets lynched, flips town, I'll accept the responsibility. You could also just investigate me the following night to, to confirm that I am town. That is, if you're cop. Just sayin.

When he flips town, then you've just killed the town doc, and you were wrong about this being all-vanilla.
Once you kill the doc, the cop is dead, so there will be no investigation of you.

Just sayin.

I'm still waiting for you to explain why Ragian would make this setup, or why scum would do this when they didn't need to.

[DirtyDishSoap]

Its a vanilla set up. Do you see the title? Vanilla Elementary Mafia. A Standard variation Doc cannot self target. Why are you running this around in circles?! Talk about trying to obfuscate a pretty simple reason.

You're scum. There's no two ways about it.

I'm not going to keep repeating myself.

[TrafalgarLaw01]

Wow, 2 pages full of text to read, give me an hour to read carefully, cause I dont like some of the thinkgs I've read so far, but want to see if they were already discussed. For instance Chana saying "we need to lynch doc or Cop".
Will post some toughts in an hour or so

[TrafalgarLaw01]

Ok, I wont quote cause there is a lot of thing to quote that would take me a lot of time. SO i' will try to write my thoughts about the current situation trying to check who said what.

Main Discussion: This is a full vanilla game with no power roles for town and 3 people made a full scheme or this is a normal game with doc, cop and possibly another role.

Why the disscussion, Dirty claims the Doc cannot be on himself, Deg says it can and prove it by pointing a game where he was a doc and was on himself at night. I say the situation it's completely up to the game creator. I have no much experience on online mafia, but when I have played it with my friends, Doc can be on himself (Sometimes there are rules that he cannot protect the same people 2 nights in a row, but thats another disscusion) the point is IF the doc can be or not on himself is up to the game creator and there is no universal rule.

Out of this disscussion we also have 3 power Roles Darin (Doc), Deg (Cop) and Fusi (soft claim), so either the 3 of them are scum or they are all saying the truth as were cleared by the cop. If fusi does not want to say his role (Maybe fearing he would be a target, please confir if u have a role or not). so we know if there is roles or not in this game as 3 afia with no power roles for towns would make absolutely 0 sense.

I say Strike kill made perfect sense, he was confirmed townie, so would not be lynched, and doc would have been on cop or himself, so to avoid another night without kills, mafia killed a confirmed townie.

Lynching a power role just to prove if there is or not power roles, makes 0 sense to me, I do belive we have power roles. as I said 3 scum with 0 power roles is incredibly unbalanced.

Andrei was suspicious and Dirty have not helped himself, but maybe he wants to stirr things up, so I'm not voting him just yet, but would like to explain why would all of them be scum.

FInally, lets remember our first cop was Dunk, and he posted quite fast he was watching us. therefore I dont thing mafia coudl have planned it from the beggining, he is not experienced playes and I serioulsy doubt he come with a scheme like this.

Dirty, pixar and Chana on of them has to be a scum at least, trying to get a power role lynched.

[DirtyDishSoap]

Ok, I wont quote cause there is a lot of thing to quote that would take me a lot of time. SO i' will try to write my thoughts about the current situation trying to check who said what.

Main Discussion: This is a full vanilla game with no power roles for town and 3 people made a full scheme or this is a normal game with doc, cop and possibly another role.

Why the disscussion, Dirty claims the Doc cannot be on himself, Deg says it can and prove it by pointing a game where he was a doc and was on himself at night. I say the situation it's completely up to the game creator. I have no much experience on online mafia, but when I have played it with my friends, Doc can be on himself (Sometimes there are rules that he cannot protect the same people 2 nights in a row, but thats another disscusion) the point is IF the doc can be or not on himself is up to the game creator and there is no universal rule.

Out of this disscussion we also have 3 power Roles Darin (Doc), Deg (Cop) and Fusi (soft claim), so either the 3 of them are scum or they are all saying the truth as were cleared by the cop. If fusi does not want to say his role (Maybe fearing he would be a target, please confir if u have a role or not). so we know if there is roles or not in this game as 3 afia with no power roles for towns would make absolutely 0 sense.

I say Strike kill made perfect sense, he was confirmed townie, so would not be lynched, and doc would have been on cop or himself, so to avoid another night without kills, mafia killed a confirmed townie.

Lynching a power role just to prove if there is or not power roles, makes 0 sense to me, I do belive we have power roles. as I said 3 scum with 0 power roles is incredibly unbalanced.

Andrei was suspicious and Dirty have not helped himself, but maybe he wants to stirr things up, so I'm not voting him just yet, but would like to explain why would all of them be scum.

FInally, lets remember our first cop was Dunk, and he posted quite fast he was watching us. therefore I dont thing mafia coudl have planned it from the beggining, he is not experienced playes and I serioulsy doubt he come with a scheme like this.

Dirty, pixar and Chana on of them has to be a scum at least, trying to get a power role lynched.

I've explained it several times and I'm not going to bother repeating it for the nTH time.

Here's the true irony of this. This is all coming from a confirmed town, and a more experienced player than I.

I'm more or less where you are. I'm skeptical of how quickly Darin got to 3 votes with little other discussion. If we're dealing with 3 mafia then bar good doc luck at night then we only have one more mislynch we can afford before we have to be perfect with it each night (10-2=8. 8-2=6. 3=6/2. Yay math) Pixar has also been rubbing me the wrong way. His reasoning for the vote just felt very safe. That said. Darin has not defended himself well. Soft claiming a power role that blatantly is if anything worse than claiming a power role.

Either way, I'd like to remind everyone that we are not in a rush to get to the lynch at the moment. Let's take time to figure things out and explore leads.

This is also something I have echoed IF I AM WRONG. (I'm going to emphasize that because I have been wrong).

Yea. Not really buying it. It's a vanilla game. So it's not even all that likely we *have* a third power role. This kind of just sounds like Fusi seeing that people unvoted after Darin and Dunk claimed power roles and wants to try the same. The OMGus vote on Law doesn't help.

Here is where our opinion on the matter differs.

Whether a doc can self-protect has always been dependent on the mod. It's not universal.

And here, ladies and gents, is the foundation of a good portion of what I have been arguing.

So the options are two mafia are lying about being cop and doc and haven't been counterclaimed.

Or Fusi is wrong/scum.

Fusi's been a lot more active since people started putting pressure on him and a lot of his accusations have been in some way or another OMGus. He's avoided claiming so far just saying that he's a power role and he'll die if he claims which just smells like bs as 1. This a vanilla game and the chances that we have 3 power roles isn't extremely likely and 2. No power role is going to be higher on the mafia kill list then cop or doc. I think he's just trying to emulate the Darin strat of not claiming until the last second because it did keep Darin from getting lynched in the long run.

That last portion hinges on whether I am right or wrong. Having THREE PR's in a small game like this, when it's incredibly likely we just have TWO SCUM.

I don't buy the self protect claim. I can't. That's where I draw a difference between my own opinion and experience with Strikes. A standard Doctor cannot self protect in a VANILLA GAME. I have never seen that role operate differently in a VANILLA setting.

[TrafalgarLaw01]

We are never gonna know if doc can or cannot be on himself untill darin is lynched killed or game over.

But them please answer me this dirty.

My last point. Dunk was our first cop. By all means an inexperienced player that almost got himself lynched by d1 in prison game. He posted really fast he was watching us and then claimed cop.

So do we agree that we can trust our cop?

[DirtyDishSoap]

We are never gonna know if doc can or cannot be on himself untill darin is lynched killed or game over.

But them please answer me this dirty.

My last point. Dunk was our first cop. By all means an inexperienced player that almost got himself lynched by d1 in prison game. He posted really fast he was watching us and then claimed cop.

So do we agree that we can trust our cop?

Well that's incredibly hard to say in my experience. If it's an all Vanilla game, as I suspect it to be at D4, then no, I can't say you really should trust cop. Even if the role is confirmed for example, he/she is completely misreading everyone and is just basically useless. (I'm not calling you useless Deg, you're a sub like me).

Same thing with a Doc though. A Docs priority, a good one at least, should be to protect those that are obvious towns. We had a cop reveal, who lives, but then claims a self protect after N2? That is extremely odd.

Even moreso, when I have someone telling me that Strike is an obvious choice, but our Doc chooses not to protect. I can understand if you continue self protecting, but given the contribution from said Doc has been close to Nil vs someone who actively questioned everything, I'm even more suspicious of the claim.

Does that make sense to you?

[DirtyDishSoap]

Not trying to be an ass, I mean it in a genuine manner, does that make sense to you?

[TrafalgarLaw01]

Same thing with a Doc though. A Docs priority, a good one at least, should be to protect those that are obvious towns. We had a cop reveal, who lives, but then claims a self protect after N2? That is extremely odd.

Even moreso, when I have someone telling me that Strike is an obvious choice, but our Doc chooses not to protect. I can understand if you continue self protecting, but given the contribution from said Doc has been close to Nil vs someone who actively questioned everything, I'm even more suspicious of the claim.

Does that make sense to you?

Strike kill makes perfect sense. Doc priorities should always be town power roles (cop, doc mainly), so 90% of the time will be on those. If mafia wants to be certain of a death shoul pick someone else. And should be a confirmed town that they wont be able to lynch at day.
But doc shouldnt have been on strike, as I said he should always be on doc or cop

[DirtyDishSoap]

Same thing with a Doc though. A Docs priority, a good one at least, should be to protect those that are obvious towns. We had a cop reveal, who lives, but then claims a self protect after N2? That is extremely odd.

Even moreso, when I have someone telling me that Strike is an obvious choice, but our Doc chooses not to protect. I can understand if you continue self protecting, but given the contribution from said Doc has been close to Nil vs someone who actively questioned everything, I'm even more suspicious of the claim.

Does that make sense to you?

Strike kill makes perfect sense. Doc priorities should always be town power roles (cop, doc mainly), so 90% of the time will be on those. If mafia wants to be certain of a death shoul pick someone else. And should be a confirmed town that they wont be able to lynch at day.
But doc shouldnt have been on strike, as I said he should always be on doc or cop

It doesn't to me though. You have a doc and a cop who claimed, neither of which have been night killed. Why go for Strike? I mentioned this earlier, but Strike had a hard on for Fusi, who later gets cleared for town. Why not try and kill one of the PR's and leave Strike on Fusi?

[DirtyDishSoap]

I want to make this point also cleared to you, It's Day 4. We had these two claim on Days 1 and 2. Again, it's an oddity.

[TrafalgarLaw01]

Same thing with a Doc though. A Docs priority, a good one at least, should be to protect those that are obvious towns. We had a cop reveal, who lives, but then claims a self protect after N2? That is extremely odd.

Even moreso, when I have someone telling me that Strike is an obvious choice, but our Doc chooses not to protect. I can understand if you continue self protecting, but given the contribution from said Doc has been close to Nil vs someone who actively questioned everything, I'm even more suspicious of the claim.

Does that make sense to you?

Strike kill makes perfect sense. Doc priorities should always be town power roles (cop, doc mainly), so 90% of the time will be on those. If mafia wants to be certain of a death shoul pick someone else. And should be a confirmed town that they wont be able to lynch at day.
But doc shouldnt have been on strike, as I said he should always be on doc or cop

It doesn't to me though. You have a doc and a cop who claimed, neither of which have been night killed. Why go for Strike? I mentioned this earlier, but Strike had a hard on for Fusi, who later gets cleared for town. Why not try and kill one of the PR's and leave Strike on Fusi?

N1 EW killed
N2 no kills (either doc was on himself or mafia chose not to kill)
N3 strike killed - i already said why it makes sense. Mafia cannot risk a 2 night with no kills. And had they target doc or cop a death coul have been prevented. Fusi was also a good target, but he almost got lynched, mafia couldnt have know cop was gonna check fusi