Israel Plans to Restore Death Penalty for Everyone but Jews

[saxitoxin]

Yup, the one functioning, humane democracy

Israel is indeed a functioning, humane democracy for the Jews. Specifically, the male Jews.

Kind of like how the U.S. was a functioning, humane democracy for white property owners back when black people couldn't be citizens or vote.

Or how these countries currently view women.

- Yemen, a woman is only considered half a witness; cannot leave home without husbands
- Saudi Arabia, women can't drive or vote (supposedly will be able to vote in 2015). Can be charged with a crime if raped.

Yes, I wish Israel would stop green-lighting the sale of tanks to Saudi Arabia that are used by the fat, crack-addicted king to massacre Bahrainis protesting for democracy. Why does Israel sell weapons to regimes that murder Arab women protesting for democracy?

Ain't a single person who supports Palestinian freedom backing any of the Gulf states, nor visa versa. There's no daylight between Saudi Arabia and Lebanon, or Syria, or any other secular Arab republic. Their only ally is the Israelis. Stop thinking the two sides in this conflict are separated by race, because they're not; that's another Israeli/Pat Robertson lie. The cause of Palestinian liberation is supported by Hebrews (including the Old Yeshiva), Arabs, and Non-Semites, and the the cause of Palestinian oppression is supported by the same mix.


pro-Palestinian rabbi and Palestinian youth consult during action against IDF occupation troops

Hezbollah soldiers help pro-Palestinian rabbis during a protest against Israel in Lebanon

[Dukasaur]

Yup, the one functioning, humane democracy

Israel is indeed a functioning, humane democracy for the Jews. Specifically, the male Jews.

Kind of like how the U.S. was a functioning, humane democracy for white property owners back when black people couldn't be citizens or vote.

Yeah, you win mets. Let's abandon all hope for civilization, draw the curtains, throw the Jews out, and turn the place over to the Grand Mufti of Jerusalem so you can have another Islamic state where women get stoned to death for having been raped. Because that's so much more humane.

The entire fucking galactic core isn't more massive than the hyprocrisy of you Jew-hating pricks.

I expect better from you than this.

I've been reading this hate-mongering shit in this forum for weeks now, and my patience is wearing thin.

So is it not hate-mongering if I call out the U.S.'s commitment to democracy based on its questionable treatment (to this day) of black people in its democracy? Or apartheid South Africa? Am I racist against white people merely for pointing this out? Why is it only hate-mongering if I point this out for Israel?

Don't start hand-waving about how the U.S. is or isn't treating black people today. You start broadening the terms of debate like that and soon it's about everything and nothing.

Your original statement was "back when black people couldn't be citizens or vote" (highlighted above) so let's stick with that. You tried to imply a similarity between the way non-Jews citizens are treated in Israel and the way blacks were treated in America prior to Emancipation.

Blacks in America couldn't vote or become citizens. Non-Jews in Isreal can become citizens and can vote if they are citizens.

Isreal is defined as a religious state, but it is not a theocratic state. In the same vein, Sweden is officially a Lutheran state and Britain is officially an Anglican state, but there is no discrimination against non-Lutherans in Sweden or against non-Anglicans in England. In Isreal, there is some socially-driven discrimination against non-Jews, but there is no officially-enshrined discrimination. The country is governed by secular principles. It is, in fact, a very liberal European-style social democracy.

Israel's score on independent rankings is admirable. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Human_rights_in_Israel#Status_of_freedom.2C_political_rights_and_civil_liberties_in_Israel It's Freedom House rating is 1 for Political Rights and 2 for Civil Rights. The Economist Intelligence Unit gives it a rating of 7.48, 27th in the world perhaps, but by far the highest of any nation in the Middle East.

Naturally, these numbers reflect only life in Israel proper, not in the occupied territories. Those are, after all, areas at war with Israel. One doesn't usually work very hard at guaranteeing the civil liberties of people who are at war with him. I think if four million enemy combatants (not all are combatants of course, but the vast majority are either combatants or persons aiding and abetting the combatants) were camped out in the U.S. and were daily launching rockets and mortar shells into Los Angeles suburbs, you wouldn't worry about their rights quite as strongly as you worry about those of the Arabs in Israel.

Even there, though, the rule of law is not entirely forgotten. Tempers run high and of course atrocities have happened, but for the most part the IDF shows an incredible level of restraint, far higher I think than most people could manage if they were allowed power over someone who was sworn to kill them. Israeli soldiers have been disciplined, even been given long jail sentences, for overstepping their rules of engagement and violating the rights of civilians in the occupied territories.

Isreal has an independent judiciary which has resisted the temptation to yield to pressure from security police and preserves fair trials, even for enemy combatants. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Human_rights_in_Israel#Judiciary_system_and_criminal_justice

Israeli law provides for the right to a fair trial and an independent judiciary. The 2005 US Department of State report on Israel[25] notes that the courts sometimes ruled against the executive branch, including in some security cases. Human Rights Groups believe these requirements are generally respected. As well the system is adversarial and cases are decided by professional judges. Indigent defendants receive mandatory representation. Some areas of the country fall under the separate judicial jurisdiction of military courts. These courts are believed to be in alignment with Israel's other criminal courts on matters pertaining to civilians. Convictions in these courts cannot be based on confession alone.[25]

U.S. Supreme Court Justice William J. Brennan said in 1987 that despite the difficulties in safeguarding civil liberties during times of security crises, he said 'it may well be Israel, not the United States, that provides the best hope for building a jurisprudence that can protect civil liberties against the demands of national security.'[37]

Israel has had gender equality from the beginning, it guarantees the rights of ethnic minorites, it is the only country in the middle east which does not persecute gays.

To compare any of this to the life of blacks in pre-Emancipation America is ludicrous, dishonest, and offensive.

[saxitoxin]

Evil - An excellent documentary by Max Blumenthal on the racist Israeli government program called Birthright, which gives free luxury holidays to American college students (provided they can prove their racial purity as Hebrews) to Israel to encourage them to leave the U.S. and join the Israeli Army, while still maintaining their U.S. citizenship so they can draw welfare checks from the U.S. government. The tax shekels of Arab-Israeli citizens are used, in part, to fund Birthright but no Arabs are permitted to participate as they lack the required racial purity.

There are many hilarious moments as Blumenthal exposes the vapidity of these morons with his stoic questioning, but the mentally disturbed social outcast at 3:50 is absolutely creepy and disturbing. Like any cult, these types of emotionally distraught outcasts are who Birthright targets for their brainwashing. (Look at this kid's wild, crazed eyes. It's fucking unbelievable. He looks like he's ready to run out and start gunning down Arab toddlers at that very moment.)



Good - Anti-Zionist rabbis address the Jerusalem Day rally in New York, greeting Palestinian supporters with As-salamu alaykum and receiving an ovation for their support for an end to genocide. An inspirational, peaceful response to the howls of Israeli hate seen above. Unfortunately, a lone Zionist shows up and tries to shout down the rabbi, because Zionists are all about calm rational debate and free speech ...

[Serbia]

I remember when this thread was about ISIS.

Bollocks.

[DoomYoshi]

Britain is officially an Anglican state, but there is no discrimination against non-Lutherans in Sweden or against non-Anglicans in England.

Actually, there is, since only an Anglican can take the crown of England.

What's the point of being able to drink from the same fountain as someone if you can't be the reigning monarch?

[Metsfanmax]

Naturally, these numbers reflect only life in Israel proper, not in the occupied territories. Those are, after all, areas at war with Israel. One doesn't usually work very hard at guaranteeing the civil liberties of people who are at war with him. I think if four million enemy combatants (not all are combatants of course, but the vast majority are either combatants or persons aiding and abetting the combatants) were camped out in the U.S. and were daily launching rockets and mortar shells into Los Angeles suburbs, you wouldn't worry about their rights quite as strongly as you worry about those of the Arabs in Israel.

I think it would be cool if the U.S. military decided to "occupy" Toronto and then bulldoze Canadian houses to make way for new American buildings. When the Canadians complain, we'll just tell them their civil liberties don't matter, because they were at war with us. And then when they fire rockets at Buffalo, we'll declare that the war was justified, because you Canadians are terrorists.

If the U.S. did that, do you think anyone would be talking about how humane the U.S. is, because it treats the citizens of Providence nicely?

Evil - An excellent documentary by Max Blumenthal on the racist Israeli government program called Birthright, which gives free luxury holidays to American college students (provided they can prove their racial purity as Hebrews) to Israel to encourage them to leave the U.S. and join the Israeli Army, while still maintaining their U.S. citizenship so they can draw welfare checks from the U.S. government. The tax shekels of Arab-Israeli citizens are used, in part, to fund Birthright but no Arabs are permitted to participate as they lack the required racial purity.

I've considered doing Birthright, not because I plan on being a Jew again, or living in Israel, but just for the free trip to see the Middle East. Is that evil?

[notyou2]

Want to know who the real racists are; look who makes all decisions based on race.

God?

[DoomYoshi]

I think it would be cool if the U.S. military decided to "occupy" Toronto and then bulldoze Canadian houses to make way for new American buildings.

That's exactly what happened as the Beavers dams were destroyed and the Wolves' forests destroyed to make room for Starbucks and Wal-Mart and McDonalds.

[saxitoxin]

I think it would be cool if the U.S. military decided to "occupy" Toronto and then bulldoze Canadian houses to make way for new American buildings.

That's exactly what happened as the Beavers dams were destroyed and the Wolves' forests destroyed to make room for Starbucks and Wal-Mart and McDonalds.

Is "beaver dam" what you call Zellers?

I've considered doing Birthright, not because I plan on being a Jew again, or living in Israel, but just for the free trip to see the Middle East. Is that evil?

I personally think you should absolutely go on birthright, if for no other reason than to occupy a spot that would otherwise go to a true believer.

There are some anti-Zionists who go just to ask subversive questions even. I know someone who returned from a birthright trip 2 years ago and said they had contact with Arabs (presumably to undermine criticism of the occupation by anyone on the trip) ... in the form of a camel ride led by hired Bedouin guides! So hilarious, it's like organizing a minstrel show to show you respect African-American culture.

[Dukasaur]

Naturally, these numbers reflect only life in Israel proper, not in the occupied territories. Those are, after all, areas at war with Israel. One doesn't usually work very hard at guaranteeing the civil liberties of people who are at war with him. I think if four million enemy combatants (not all are combatants of course, but the vast majority are either combatants or persons aiding and abetting the combatants) were camped out in the U.S. and were daily launching rockets and mortar shells into Los Angeles suburbs, you wouldn't worry about their rights quite as strongly as you worry about those of the Arabs in Israel.

I think it would be cool if the U.S. military decided to "occupy" Toronto and then bulldoze Canadian houses to make way for new American buildings. When the Canadians complain, we'll just tell them their civil liberties don't matter, because they were at war with us. And then when they fire rockets at Buffalo, we'll declare that the war was justified, because you Canadians are terrorists.

Luckily, we are not at war, but if we were, that's precisely the kind of thing you would expect.

If the U.S. did that, do you think anyone would be talking about how humane the U.S. is, because it treats the citizens of Providence nicely?

Actually, yes.

The U.S. carried out indiscriminate destruction of German and Japanese cities during WWII, but did not cease to be regarded as a law-abiding democracy at home.

The U.S. carried out a scorched-earth policy in a large swath of the Confederacy during the Civil War, but did not cease to be regarded as a humane democracy at home.

The U.S. burned thousands of Vietnamese villages and made more than a million people homeless, and although some American youth protested, the vast majority of the population accepted it as a necessity of war and did not cease to regard the U.S. as a place where democracy and civil liberties reign.

All of the above have been criticized and perhaps rightfully so, but the bottom line is that a nation's level of liberty is judged by how it treats its own people, not by how it treats the enemy.

[saxitoxin]

All of the above have been criticized and perhaps rightfully so, but the bottom line is that a nation's level of liberty is judged by how it treats its own people, not by how it treats the enemy.

Declaring the resident population of controlled territory (in this case the West Bank, Gaza and the Golan Heights) to be "not our own people" is exactly what South Africa did with the bantustans of Ciskei, Transkei, and Venda. Ethnic Zulus were not actually South Africans, they were citizens of Ciskei. Therefore, a different set of rules applied to them. The world rejected those smoke and mirror games then, and they reject it now.

And the museum Arabs Israel considers its own citizens are also treated horrifically. The largest Arab party in Israel, the UAL, has repeatedly observed Arab citizens of Israel do not receive equal treatment in front of the law and are treated like garbage by the Israeli proto-fascist state, as well as average Israelis. It's just the Israeli Information Ministry and Pat Robertson that trumpet the lie that Arab-Israelis are living in a democratic paradise. No Arabs agree with that.

Your kind said South Africa could never end apartheid because the dumb blacks would turn it into a backwards hellhole ruled by warlords like in other parts of Africa. Now you declare Israel can't end apartheid because the dumb Arabs will turn it into a backwards hellhole ruled by Muftis. You were wrong then, you are wrong now.

[saxitoxin]

Hundreds of people assembled in Chicago - joined by several Aldermen of Chicago - to protest last weekend's Israeli outrages, specifically the beating of an American child and the burning alive of a Palestinian child. The protestors chanted "Hey Israel, whaddya say? How many kids have you killed today?"



A representative of Jews for Justice in Palestine made the following speech, according to MondoWeiss:

As Jews we say ‘No More!’ to the racist Israelis who take to the streets of Jerusalem chanting ‘death to Arabs’; we say ‘No More!’ to Netanyahu’s calls for revenge; we say ‘No More!’ to the cold-hearted murder of Palestinian youth; we say ‘No More!’ to the Israeli army’s home demolitions, raids, mass imprisonment, detention of youth, and murder of Palestinians in the West Bank. We say ‘No More!’ to the brutal shelling of Gaza. We say ‘No More!’ to the crackdown in East Jerusalem. We say ‘No More!’ to the racism, apartheid, and occupation being committed by the Israeli state in our name.

Our people did not suffer oppression and exile for centuries so that we could turn around and become the oppressors of another people. Israeli apartheid is a shame not only to the world, it is a shame upon the memory of our Jewish ancestors.

[Metsfanmax]

Naturally, these numbers reflect only life in Israel proper, not in the occupied territories. Those are, after all, areas at war with Israel. One doesn't usually work very hard at guaranteeing the civil liberties of people who are at war with him. I think if four million enemy combatants (not all are combatants of course, but the vast majority are either combatants or persons aiding and abetting the combatants) were camped out in the U.S. and were daily launching rockets and mortar shells into Los Angeles suburbs, you wouldn't worry about their rights quite as strongly as you worry about those of the Arabs in Israel.

I think it would be cool if the U.S. military decided to "occupy" Toronto and then bulldoze Canadian houses to make way for new American buildings. When the Canadians complain, we'll just tell them their civil liberties don't matter, because they were at war with us. And then when they fire rockets at Buffalo, we'll declare that the war was justified, because you Canadians are terrorists.

Luckily, we are not at war, but if we were, that's precisely the kind of thing you would expect.

If Israel and the Palestinians are indeed "at war," it's only because of land grab tactics like the one described above, performed by the Israelis.

The U.S. carried out indiscriminate destruction of German and Japanese cities during WWII, but did not cease to be regarded as a law-abiding democracy at home.

...

The U.S. burned thousands of Vietnamese villages and made more than a million people homeless, and although some American youth protested, the vast majority of the population accepted it as a necessity of war and did not cease to regard the U.S. as a place where democracy and civil liberties reign.

These actions (especially the ones in Vietnam) were regarded as war crimes by a very large section of the population. If you think that the population just "went along" with the war in Vietnam and agreed that everything we were doing over there was ultimately justified, then you must have ignored everything that happened after 1967. And even if people were going along with it, that doesn't make them justified actions -- there were some clearly illegal actions happening. These were being ordered by people "at home" like the President who is supposed to obey American laws. Whether or not the crimes happen abroad does not change whether they were crimes, and thus whether the law is being applied in a fair and indiscriminate manner to all citizens.

But if you still want to even go that route, it's arguable at best to suggest that the U.S. was a perfectly humane democracy during the time of either of those wars. Brown v. Board was decided in 1954 and as late as the 1970s there were areas in the South resisting racial integration in schools. In World War II, we detained 100,000 Americans of Japanese ancestry in internment camps.

The U.S. carried out a scorched-earth policy in a large swath of the Confederacy during the Civil War, but did not cease to be regarded as a humane democracy at home.

Where the hell was "at home" during the Civil War? Was there any part of the U.S. where laws were actually being followed?

All of the above have been criticized and perhaps rightfully so, but the bottom line is that a nation's level of liberty is judged by how it treats its own people, not by how it treats the enemy.

We are discussing whether these countries are/were "humane democracies," not whether the citizens of those countries have "liberty."

[notyou2]

Is "beaver dam" what you call Zellers?

What do you call Zellers?




























We call it Target now.

[patches70]

Today, in Gaza-





Whatcha think, Saxi? If I remember, Israel once traded some 1,000 Palestinian prisoners for one soldier. That transaction which the Palestinians negotiated, sets the comparative worth of each other's peoples.

Thus, since three Israeli teens are killed, then by the Palestinian's own negotiating, is worth 3,000 Palestinian lives, right?


Still, that's pretty messed up, that's just one bomb dropped by the Israelis. No wonder Gaza always looks like a set from a WWII movie of a shelled out town.

Hell of a way to eek out an existence.

[saxitoxin]

Today, in Gaza-





Whatcha think, Saxi? If I remember, Israel once traded some 1,000 Palestinian prisoners for one soldier. That transaction which the Palestinians negotiated, sets the comparative worth of each other's peoples.

Thus, since three Israeli teens are killed, then by the Palestinian's own negotiating, is worth 3,000 Palestinian lives, right?


Still, that's pretty messed up, that's just one bomb dropped by the Israelis. No wonder Gaza always looks like a set from a WWII movie of a shelled out town.

Hell of a way to eek out an existence.

I'm unclear if any rocket fired by Hamas has ever killed a single Israeli, and yet Israel obliterates scores of Palestinians regularly. That said, if this is a war then I would say that Israel does not have an obligation to a proportional response since the objective of any army is to win, and they don't need to win with a fair fight.

However, this is not a war for two reasons, (a) Israel does not hold Palestinian partisans as prisoners-of-war but as regular inmates under Israeli criminal laws and, (b) Israel does not recognize the PA as a state but as some kind-of internal dependency over which it has ultimate sovereignty. Therefore, Israeli operations in their slave territories are police activities. When police in any other country use laser guided bombs and cruise missiles against local criminal suspects, then I suppose Israel may have a tenable position. Until then, this is just proof of Zionist barbarism: Jewish residents of territory over which Israel claims sovereignty get handcuffs and a civil trial when they break the law; Arab residents are summarily executed by cruise missile.

[GabonX]

By hook or by crook, the territory of Israel must be sanitized of Zionism.

So what's you final solution Saxi?

[saxitoxin]

By hook or by crook, the territory of Israel must be sanitized of Zionism.

So what's you final solution Saxi?

I am open to any number of solutions.

What is my fantasy solution? That would be:

(1) all lands taken from individual Palestinian landowners must be returned, or fair compensation paid (not $2, as Dukusaur suggested was fair compensation); if lands are returned, compensation will still need to be paid for 60 years loss of use - Israel can never afford this amount, so I would suggest individual assets of supporters of the the World Zionist Organization be seized under court order to finance compensation (e.g. you can squeeze $37 billion just out of Sheldon Adelson), but whatever, maybe the EU and U.S. and corrupt Gulf monarchies split the cost as judgment for their role in facilitating Israeli excesses, I don't care
(2) Israel will have to secularize itself by introducing a new national flag without the Star of David and eliminating all laws granting religious preference (e.g. regulation of food labeling will have to be transferred from the Rabbinical Council to a government ministry, government funding of Birthright trips will have to be eliminated, Hebrew de-recognized as an official language, the menorah removed from the speaker's rostrum in the Knesset, etc.)
(3) Israel must sign the Nuclear Non-Proliferation Treaty and submit to disarmament and inspection
(4) the Golan Heights must be returned to Syria
(5) the West Bank and Gaza Strip and its 3 million Arab residents must be fully incorporated into Israel and all residents of those places granted full Israeli citizenship with voting rights (no two-state solution nonsense)
(6) Jerusalem should be made an international city administered by a council of nine representatives (one each from Israel, Jordan, the Vatican, Japan, India, Singapore, the World Jewish Congress, the Islamic Conference, and the World Council of Churches)
(7) a Truth and Reconciliation Commission should be convened to publicize all atrocities committed over the preceding 60 years similar to what occurred in South Africa

[Phatscotty]

the full convo about the caliphate, just for context and to be clear. "Saying the Caliphate coming back is just the raving of a delusioal fool" 'Loony toons" "he needs medication" etc

funny video ... if I were one of Beck's followers this would be the final nail in the coffin of why I should run as far away from him as I could

Kindly read this 2011 rant by Beck:

One, a caliphate is a global government, and you know that's where we're headed. Everybody is headed now towards a global government. Well, so are the Islamic extremists, except theirs is Sharia law and infidels will be beheaded. The Shiite Muslims, the ones in Iran, believe in — and not all of them, not the people necessarily on the street — but the real radicals, the revolutionaries and the people at the very top are called Twelvers. They believe in the Twelfth Imam. And that will — that Twelfth Imam, when he returns, he will set up a global caliphate in ancient Babylon. This one should gravely concern you because he has all of the earmarks — in their own writings — of an antichrist, or the Antichrist. I don't know if he is or not. But there are those who will just claim, you know, he's the Twelfth Imam, et cetera et cetera. And the way to get there is global chaos.

Fast-forward to 2014, ISIS (who are not Twelvers, not Seveners, not even Shia at all, but Sunni) have just declared a caliphate and are being fought by Iran and Hezbollah ... the people Beck said were trying to recreate the caliphate! It's like saying, in 1937, "World War II is coming - France is going to invade Poland; fortunately, Germany will come to Poland's defense."

The warning of a Salafist drive for a recreated Islamic state was around for decades before Glenn Beck first went on air. The question on Beck, however, is why did he choose to reverse the identity of the bad guys in the version he presented to his listeners?* This is a tactic straight out of a hasbara playbook. Glenn Beck is a very loyal patriot ... it just happens the country he's loyal to isn't the USA.

* For that matter, why did Glenn Beck - in 2010 - issue an utterly crazy prophecy to his followers that Hezbollah would shortly attack the U.S. with car bombs (even though Hezbollah condemned 9/11 and took the lead in hunting Al Qaeda cells in Lebanon). And why didn't he explain why that prophecy didn't come true? Even Harold Camping offered explanations when his prophecy dates would pass without incident. The prophecy didn't come true but it did manage to deep-six U.S. attempts to normalize communications channels with Hezbollah. This benefitted the nation that Glenn Beck is loyal to while directly harming U.S. interests.

Found something 100 times better (most people would send this privately/not at all)

watch the whole thing...holy shit! I would be very interested to see a comment from Symmetry here about who is right, Ron Paul or Glenn Beck...HA

[GabonX]

By hook or by crook, the territory of Israel must be sanitized of Zionism.

So what's you final solution Saxi?

I am open to any number of solutions.

What is my fantasy solution? That would be:

(1) all lands taken from individual Palestinian landowners must be returned, or fair compensation paid (not $2, as Dukusaur suggested was fair compensation); if lands are returned, compensation will still need to be paid for 60 years loss of use - Israel can never afford this amount, so I would suggest individual assets of supporters of the the World Zionist Organization be seized under court order to finance compensation (e.g. you can squeeze $37 billion just out of Sheldon Adelson), but whatever, maybe the EU and U.S. and corrupt Gulf monarchies split the cost as judgment for their role in facilitating Israeli excesses, I don't care
(2) Israel will have to secularize itself by introducing a new national flag without the Star of David and eliminating all laws granting religious preference (e.g. regulation of food labeling will have to be transferred from the Rabbinical Council to a government ministry, government funding of Birthright trips will have to be eliminated, Hebrew de-recognized as an official language, the menorah removed from the speaker's rostrum in the Knesset, etc.)
(3) Israel must sign the Nuclear Non-Proliferation Treaty and submit to disarmament and inspection
(4) the Golan Heights must be returned to Syria
(5) the West Bank and Gaza Strip and its 3 million Arab residents must be fully incorporated into Israel and all residents of those places granted full Israeli citizenship with voting rights (no two-state solution nonsense)
(6) Jerusalem should be made an international city administered by a council of nine representatives (one each from Israel, Jordan, the Vatican, Japan, India, Singapore, the World Jewish Congress, the Islamic Conference, and the World Council of Churches)
(7) a Truth and Reconciliation Commission should be convened to publicize all atrocities committed over the preceding 60 years similar to what occurred in South Africa

So you have evidence these things would appease the Arabs?

[saxitoxin]

By hook or by crook, the territory of Israel must be sanitized of Zionism.

So what's you final solution Saxi?

I am open to any number of solutions.

What is my fantasy solution? That would be:

(1) all lands taken from individual Palestinian landowners must be returned, or fair compensation paid (not $2, as Dukusaur suggested was fair compensation); if lands are returned, compensation will still need to be paid for 60 years loss of use - Israel can never afford this amount, so I would suggest individual assets of supporters of the the World Zionist Organization be seized under court order to finance compensation (e.g. you can squeeze $37 billion just out of Sheldon Adelson), but whatever, maybe the EU and U.S. and corrupt Gulf monarchies split the cost as judgment for their role in facilitating Israeli excesses, I don't care
(2) Israel will have to secularize itself by introducing a new national flag without the Star of David and eliminating all laws granting religious preference (e.g. regulation of food labeling will have to be transferred from the Rabbinical Council to a government ministry, government funding of Birthright trips will have to be eliminated, Hebrew de-recognized as an official language, the menorah removed from the speaker's rostrum in the Knesset, etc.)
(3) Israel must sign the Nuclear Non-Proliferation Treaty and submit to disarmament and inspection
(4) the Golan Heights must be returned to Syria
(5) the West Bank and Gaza Strip and its 3 million Arab residents must be fully incorporated into Israel and all residents of those places granted full Israeli citizenship with voting rights (no two-state solution nonsense)
(6) Jerusalem should be made an international city administered by a council of nine representatives (one each from Israel, Jordan, the Vatican, Japan, India, Singapore, the World Jewish Congress, the Islamic Conference, and the World Council of Churches)
(7) a Truth and Reconciliation Commission should be convened to publicize all atrocities committed over the preceding 60 years similar to what occurred in South Africa

So you have evidence these things would appease the Arabs?

I think this would meet all the requirements of the Khartoum Resolution, the Stockholm Declaration and the Baghdad Declaration, plus Syria's demand for the return of the Golan Heights as a precondition of a peace treaty.

But your question is a loaded question as Arabs aren't seeking appeasement, but rather normal standards of civilized conduct by Israel. There is nothing to appease. Ending the apartheid of the West Bank and Gaza Strip will increase the voting Arab population of Israel to 45% of the total (and, with no more religious preferences in immigration standards, probably a majority within 10 years) which will compel the normal functioning of democratic institutions since Arab support will be necessary to maintain any government.

Ultimately, however, Israel has shown it is not willing to drink from the peace well. If it doesn't drink from the peace well then it will need to be drowned in the peace well. Negotiation can't be tolerated as a stalling tactic.

[GabonX]

I don't think the Palestinians would be happy living next to a bunch of Jews. Isn't that a major part of what started the conflict?

[saxitoxin]

I don't think the Palestinians would be happy living next to a bunch of Jews. Isn't that a major part of what started the conflict?

No, that's a lie promoted by Israeli hasbara in order to extort billions from American taxpayers so they can keep living on the dole with handouts from the U.S.

Palestinians lived next to Jews (the Old Yeshiva) for centuries without a problem until 1944 when the newly arrived Zionists launched their wave of terrorist bombings and, eventually, land confiscations and apartheid population transfers. When Saladin the Great captured Jerusalem from the crusaders in 1187, in fact, the first thing he did was order the return of all Jewish properties confiscated by the Christians and the reopening of the synagogues (as an aside, Syrian Jews in the U.S.have widely supported the great Syrian president Dr. Bashar al-Assad, recognizing the firm tolerance and aid he has given that nation's indigenous Jewish community in the same tradition as Saladin).

The suicide bombing of the King David Hotel in 1946 - which killed 91 men, women and little children - by the Zionists is still the deadliest terrorist attack in the history of Israel.

[GabonX]

I don't think the Palestinians would be happy living next to a bunch of Jews. Isn't that a major part of what started the conflict?

No, that's a lie promoted by Israeli hasbara in order to extort billions from American taxpayers so they can keep living on the dole with handouts from the U.S.

Palestinians lived next to Jews (the Old Yeshiva) for centuries without a problem until 1944 when the newly arrived Zionists launched their wave of terrorist bombings and, eventually, land confiscations and apartheid population transfers. When Saladin the Great captured Jerusalem from the crusaders in 1187, in fact, the first thing he did was order the return of all Jewish properties confiscated by the Christians and the reopening of the synagogues (as an aside, Syrian Jews in the U.S.have widely supported the great Syrian president Dr. Bashar al-Assad, recognizing the firm tolerance and aid he has given that nation's indigenous Jewish community in the same tradition as Saladin).

The suicide bombing of the King David Hotel in 1946 - which killed 91 men, women and little children - by the Zionists is still the deadliest terrorist attack in the history of Israel.

It definitely started before 1944.

1929 Hebron massacre

The Hebron massacre refers to the killing of sixty-seven Jews (including 23 college students) on 24 August 1929 in Hebron, then part of Mandatory Palestine, by Arabs incited to violence by false rumors that Jews were massacring Arabs in Jerusalem and seizing control of Muslim holy places.[1] The event also left scores seriously wounded or maimed. Jewish homes were pillaged and synagogues were ransacked. Many of the 435 Jews who survived were hidden by local Arab families.[2][3] Soon after, all Hebron's Jews were evacuated by the British authorities. Many returned in 1931, but almost all were evacuated at the outbreak of the 1936–39 Arab revolt in Palestine. The massacre formed part of the 1929 Palestine riots, in which a total of 133 Jews and 110 Arabs were killed, and brought the centuries-old Jewish presence in Hebron to an end.

The massacre, together with that of Jews in Safed, sent shock waves through Jewish communities in Palestine and around the world. It led to the re-organization and development of the Jewish paramilitary organization, the Haganah, which later became the nucleus of the Israel Defense Forces.[citation needed] In the metanarrative of Zionism, according to Michelle Campos, the event became 'a central symbol of Jewish persecution at the hands of bloodthirsty Arabs'[4] and was 'engraved in the national psyche of Israeli Jews', particularly those who settled in Hebron after 1967.[5] Hillel Cohen regards the massacre as marking a point-of-no-return in Arab-Jewish relations, and forcing the Mizrahi Jews to join forces with Zionism.[6]
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1929_Hebron_massacre

1929 Safed riots

The 1929 Safed riots, during the 1929 Palestine riots, were the portion of the riots in Safed which culminated with the massacre of 18-20 Jewish residents of Safed on August 29, 1929.[1]
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1929_Safed_massacre

Obviously your sympathies lay lie with the Palestinians, you've made that clear. In the interest of summarizing your views let me know if there are any errors in the following:


You believe Israeli Jews, Zionists, and Jews in other countries who support Israel, are the worst people in the world. You believe these people should have their property confiscated based on "support to Zionist organizations." You believe the primary cause of problems in the Middle East and perhaps the world, is Zionism. You believe Zionism is an extreme religious movement and dismiss any connection to a secular culture or consideration of refuge populations. You believe Israelis and Zionists consider the rest of humanity their slaves and treat them as such.

You believe Palestinians share no fault for the conflict between them and Israel. In addition to confiscation of "Zionist property" (please advise if you object to the term), Israel and other responsible countries must compensate the Palestinians who will then be satisfied and will not use the money to take up arms against Jews. Israel must integrate with the populations of Gaza and the West Bank and open immigration to Arabs and Muslims. Israel must do this without "using negotiation as a stalling tactic" lest they be "drowned in the peace well."

Various proclamations you sited adequately guarantee the security of the Jewish population of Israel in accepting the Arab terms. Israel must unilaterally disarm and must not delay in accepting these terms.



Please advise if I've misrepresented any of your sentiments in the above paragraphs.

[saxitoxin]

You believe Israeli Jews, Zionists, and Jews in other countries who support Israel, are the worst people in the world. You believe these people should have their property confiscated based on "support to Zionist organizations." You believe the primary cause of problems in the Middle East and perhaps the world, is Zionism. You believe Zionism is an extreme religious movement and dismiss any connection to a secular culture or consideration of refuge populations. You believe Israelis and Zionists consider the rest of humanity their slaves and treat them as such.

You believe Palestinians share no fault for the conflict between them and Israel. In addition to confiscation of "Zionist property" (please advise if you object to the term), Israel and other responsible countries must compensate the Palestinians who will then be satisfied and will not use the money to take up arms against Jews. Israel must integrate with the populations of Gaza and the West Bank and open immigration to Arabs and Muslims. Israel must do this without "using negotiation as a stalling tactic" lest they be "drowned in the peace well."

Various proclamations you sited adequately guarantee the security of the Jewish population of Israel in accepting the Arab terms. Israel must unilaterally disarm and must not delay in accepting these terms.

correct