Numismatics

[2dimes]

No, I was not doubting it. I just think it’s a bad choice. Interesting story too.

[riskllama]

i could not live in a country that has aluminium coinage...

[jusplay4fun]

It was the Hunt brothers who tried to dominate the copper market, in the 70s, possibly late 70s, as I recall. They bought up (and hoarded) so much copper that the price rose and the copper in the US Penny was worth more than 1 cent (0.01 of the US Dollar). Since then this US Penny was made to be mostly ZINC with a copper coating (making up about 2 percent of it, as I best recall).

In my opinion dropping the penny is silly because the nickel became the new penny, however it had to happen because the melt value of a copper penny was more than one cent.

There was risk of entrepreneurs taking them out of circulation.

I am sure most of the first euro coins are probably still in circulation.

Just like I am confident you will find many US minted coins from 1999 still quite common...

[jusplay4fun]

Isaac Newton (JUS before 1700, of Physics and Calculus fame) became Master of the Mint late in his career. He instituted many changes, including discouraging shaving silver and/or gold from the edge of coins to melt down for cash. He made many improvements in the minting of coins.

Most in the job (prior to Newton) merely used it as a source of income and did not take its responsibilities seriously to do much about the problems of coins in circulation. He applied his power of thought to REAL problems of coins. He also applied his perseverance to prosecute offenders. I think a few poor women were executed (or jailed) for offenses such as shaving coins.

[HitRed]

The Hunt brothers were silver.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Silver_Thursday

[jonesthecurl]

There's a very interesting book on the subject - of Newton's time at the Mint
https://thomaslevenson.com/newton-counterfitter

[HitRed]

Found this interesting about the Royal Mint.

The Great Debasement (1540), which saw the amount of precious metal in coin significantly reduced. In order to further gather control of the country's currency, monasteries were dissolved, which effectively ended major coin production outside of London.

So the Monks turned to beer?

[jusplay4fun]

I was posting all my coin and mint matters on memory; I suspected that some of the specific facts may vary a bit:

https://www.investopedia.com/articles/optioninvestor/09/silver-thursday-hunt-brothers.asp

Silver Thursday: How Two Wealthy Traders Cornered The Market
By ANDREW BEATTIE Updated Jun 25, 2019
The stock market gets most of the media's attention because it's easier to grasp than its cousin, the commodities market. That said, the commodities market has as many spectacular stories to tell as the stock market. "Mr. Copper"- Japanese trader Yasuo Hamanaka - caught the world's attention in the 1990s when his daring (and brilliant) attempt to manipulate the copper market came to light. However, Mr. Copper was only building on a ploy pioneered by the Hunt brothers 20 years earlier. Let's take a trip through one of the largest speculative attempts to corner a market - and how it went awry.

https://www.thesprucecrafts.com/penny-solid-copper-or-plated-768853#:~:text=If%20your%20Lincoln%20Memorial%20penny,composition%20is%20to%20weigh%20them.

Is My Penny Solid Copper or a Copper-Plated Zinc Cent?
Written by Susan Headley
Updated 01/02/20

If your Lincoln Memorial penny has a date before 1982, it is made of 95% copper. If the date is 1983 or later, it is made of 97.5% zinc and plated with a thin copper coating.

For pennies dated 1982, when both copper and zinc cents were made, and best way to determine their composition is to weigh them. Solid copper pennies weigh 3.11 grams (+/- 0.130 g.), whereas the copper plated zinc pennies weigh only 2.5 grams (+/- 0.100 g.).

Back in the early 1970s, the rising price of copper was pushing the cost to make a penny over its face value of one cent. Fortunately, the price of copper dropped and production continued. Unfortunately, the increasing price of copper in the early 1980s forced The United States Mint to change the composition of the penny permanently. This was to prevent a melt off of pennies. It has been the past experience in the United States that when the melt value of a coin exceeds its face value, people will melt the coins in order to sell the raw metal and make a profit.

In an effort to thwart a melt off of pennies in 1982, the United States Mint made half of the pennies out of solid copper and the other half out of copper plated zinc. Although it is illegal to melt pennies and sell the raw metal, people still pull the solid copper pennies out of circulation in order to save them for their copper value.

If a few facts are incorrect: 1) I stand corrected and 2) someone will point out such mistakes. I do not think this error detract my overall narrative.

The Hunt brothers were silver.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Silver_Thursday

[jusplay4fun]

I have read much about Isaac Newton, including recently reading this biography (within the past year):

https://www.amazon.com/Isaac-Newton-Sorcerer-Helix-Books/dp/0201483017/ref=sr_1_1?dchild=1&keywords=Isaac+Newton+Michael+White&qid=1618164993&s=books&sr=1-1

This is the source of my information on his work at the Mint.

Unknown to all but a few, Newton was a practicing alchemist who dabbled with the occult, a tortured, obsessive character who searched for an understanding of the universe by whatever means possible. Sympathetic yet balanced, Michael White's Isaac Newton offers a revelatory picture of Newton as a genius who stood at the point in history where magic ended and science began.

and let me quote from Wikipedia: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Isaac_Newton#Later_life

Newton moved to London to take up the post of warden of the Royal Mint in 1696, a position that he had obtained through the patronage of Charles Montagu, 1st Earl of Halifax, then Chancellor of the Exchequer. He took charge of England's great recoining, trod on the toes of Lord Lucas, Governor of the Tower, and secured the job of deputy comptroller of the temporary Chester branch for Edmond Halley. Newton became perhaps the best-known Master of the Mint upon the death of Thomas Neale in 1699, a position Newton held for the last 30 years of his life.[73][74] These appointments were intended as sinecures, but Newton took them seriously. He retired from his Cambridge duties in 1701, and exercised his authority to reform the currency and punish clippers and counterfeiters.

As Warden, and afterwards as Master, of the Royal Mint, Newton estimated that 20 percent of the coins taken in during the Great Recoinage of 1696 were counterfeit. Counterfeiting was high treason, punishable by the felon being hanged, drawn and quartered. Despite this, convicting even the most flagrant criminals could be extremely difficult, however, Newton proved equal to the task.[75]

[jusplay4fun]

Found this interesting about the Royal Mint.

The Great Debasement (1540), which saw the amount of precious metal in coin significantly reduced. In order to further gather control of the country's currency, monasteries were dissolved, which effectively ended major coin production outside of London.

So the Monks turned to beer?

NOT quite, HR; monks were making beer for some 1,500 years:

https://www.loyolapress.com/catholic-resources/prayer/arts-and-faith/culinary-arts/how-monks-revolutionized-beer-and-evangelization/

How Monks Revolutionized Beer and Evangelization

If you love beer, thank a monk. Monks have been producing beer for 1,500 years, and in that time, they have revolutionized and perfected the beer-making process.

The history of monks and beer begins early in the sixth century when Benedict of Nursia wrote a template for monastic life called The Rule (later known as The Rule of St. Benedict). One of Benedict’s directives was that monks should earn their own keep and donate to the poor by the work of their own hands. In the centuries following, monasteries have produced goods to sell, including cheese, honey, and, of course, beer.

Beer production served other purposes too. The Rule outlines the monastery’s obligation to show hospitality to travelers and pilgrims. Beer was safer to drink in medieval times than water contaminated by sewage, and therefore was served to visitors. Beer was also helpful to monks in getting through periods of fasting in Lent and Advent. Beer’s nutrients earned it the nickname “liquid bread.”

In the Middle Ages, monks introduced regulation and sanitary practices in their breweries. They also extended the life of beer by adding hops, which acts as a preservative.

also: https://medium.com/a-brief-history-of-things/how-monks-perfected-beer-5cf78fc66022

In the history of beer brewing, monks have a special place in heaven. They found the perfect triangulation of spirituality, nutrition and self-sufficiency to create a product that many still think of as ‘divine.’
During a recent trip to Bavaria, my wife and I visited the Weltenburg Abbey, (Weltenburger Klosterbrauerei) the oldest monastic brewery in the world. They proudly stamp ‘1050’, the year of their founding, on all their bottles, cans and T-shirts. The oldest monastic brewery claim is disputed by another Bavarian monastery, Weihenstephan Abbey, who say they got going ten years earlier in 1040.
What can’t be argued is that monks revolutionized beer-making, and to this day beers monastic breweries produce are still among the finest in the world. I can attest to the heavenly, creamy texture of the Weltenburger Dunkel we sampled. It was nutty brown and earthy —yet still surprisingly refreshing.

A match made in heaven?
Let’s travel back in time to about 600 AD. You are a monk, devoted to a life of monastic living, hidden away from the hustle and bustle of medieval temptations. You and your companions follow the Rules of St. Benedict. One of them states that to become a true monk you must “live by the work of your own hands.” You must also donate to the poor through the fruits of your labour and provide traveling pilgrims with food and drink.
Before long you realize that brewing beer will provide a means to live by St. Benedict’s rules. You consider this while you and your fellow monks down four litres of beer each day — for nutrition of course, and as a supplement during long periods of fasting.

[2dimes]

C C C combo breaker.

[jusplay4fun]

Found this interesting about the Royal Mint.

The Great Debasement (1540), which saw the amount of precious metal in coin significantly reduced. In order to further gather control of the country's currency, monasteries were dissolved, which effectively ended major coin production outside of London.

So the Monks turned to beer?

I see this matter as a way to weaken the hold of the Church, especially the Catholic Church in England during the Protestant Reformation and establishment of the Church of England. There is also the linkage of religious and political matters, typical in much of history.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Great_Debasement

In the 16th century, after suffering from the effects of the Black Death, Europe was in the middle of an economic expansion due in part to increased trade and newly discovered deposits of precious metals from the New World, England however was suffering with financial difficulty. In the 1540s, Henry VIII began a campaign of excessive overspending of government money on his lavish lifestyle and to pay for wars with France and Scotland.[1] In order to fund these Henry had already raised great sums through the Dissolution of the Monasteries, selling off the Crown's land and by raising taxes however more money was still required. In May 1542, Henry issued a secret indenture whereby he ordered that the amount of gold and silver within the country's coinage be secretly reduced and for the previously unsuccessful Testoon coin to be reproduced.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dissolution_of_the_Monasteries

The Dissolution of the Monasteries, occasionally referred to as the Suppression of the Monasteries, was the set of administrative and legal processes between 1536 and 1541 by which Henry VIII disbanded monasteries, priories, convents and friaries, in England, Wales and Ireland, expropriated their income, disposed of their assets, and provided for their former personnel and functions. Although the policy was originally envisaged as increasing the regular income of the Crown, much former monastic property was sold off to fund Henry's military campaigns in the 1540s. He was given the authority to do this in England and Wales by the Act of Supremacy, passed by Parliament in 1534, which made him Supreme Head of the Church in England, thus separating England from papal authority, and by the First Suppression Act (1535) and the Second Suppression Act (1539).

The Dissolution of the Monasteries in England and Ireland took place in the political context of other attacks on the ecclesiastical institutions of Western Roman Catholicism, which had been under way for some time. Many of these were related to the Protestant Reformation in Continental Europe. By the end of the 16th century, monasticism had almost entirely disappeared from those European states whose rulers had adopted Lutheran or Reformed confessions of faith (Ireland being the only major exception). They continued in those states that remained Catholic, and new community orders such as the Jesuits and Capuchins emerged alongside the older orders.

[HitRed]

So anther coin shop is only selling silver rounds and silver quarters. Very strange.

[Iron Maid]

i could not live in a country that has aluminium coinage...

As I collect coins myself this reminds me of the coins I have from East Germany. They are nearly all aluminium except for the 20 Pfennig, because they were use for telephones.

Here's the story from Wikipedia:

"The first issue of Eastern coins was released in 1948, showing the name "Deutschland", and consisted of aluminium 1, 5 and 10 Pfennig denominations, depicting a wheat stalk atop a cogwheel, with aluminium-bronze 50 Pfennig coins added in 1950 depicting a factory. The 1952 series of the smaller coins depict a compass and hammer in addition to wheat.

Starting with the 1 Pf. in 1960, followed by the 10 Pf. in 1963, and the 5 Pf. in 1968, the old style coins were gradually replaced with new coins depicting the state name "Deutsche Demokratische Republik." Aluminium 1 Mark, 2 Mark and 50 Pfennig pieces were released for circulation in 1956, 1957 and 1958, respectively. In 1969, brass 20 Pfennig coins were introduced, with nickel-bronze (later cupro-nickel) 5 Mark coins issued from 1968. In 1973 and 1974, 1 and 2 Mark coins were redesigned dropping the former "Deutsche Mark" title. The brass 20 Pfennig coins were issued partly because pay telephones had a standard charge of 20 Pf. and were having problems with smaller aluminium coins jamming due to their light weight. Commemorative 5, 10, and 20 Mark coins of various types have also occasionally made it into circulation. The aluminium content of the coins meant that East German coins were nicknamed "alu-chips"."

[HitRed]

The poorer the country the more fun to collect. Mexico closed their branch mints around 1905 keeping only the Mexico City mint. Then the Mexican civil war came and each waring faction set up their own crud mints. This led to endless variations of coins and are collected today.

[jusplay4fun]

As always, I learned a few things about topics of interest to me when I research and do a post with URL Links.

Here is information about three very rare US Pennies ($0.01) of USD:

https://www.etsy.com/market/extremely_rare_penny?ref=cq_tag_raised_image-0

1)
$42,000.00

Only 1 available

This is a rare steel penny it's a 1943 D error penny. Its a double dye mostly seen in the 4 and 3 of the date

1943 steel cents are U.S. one-cent coins that were struck in steel due to wartime shortages of copper. The Philadelphia, Denver, and San Francisco mints each produced these 1943 Lincoln cents. The unique composition of the coin has led to various nicknames, such as wartime cent, steel war penny, and steelie.

from Wikipedia


https://www.etsy.com/listing/886649525/extremely-rare-1943-d-steel-error-penny?gpla=1&gao=1&&utm_source=google&utm_medium=cpc&utm_campaign=shopping_us_a-art_and_collectibles-collectibles-coins&utm_custom1=_k_EAIaIQobChMI2Lqc1b_87wIVmq_ICh2JtAFvEAQYASABEgJgj_D_BwE_k_&utm_content=go_1844702580_70388662475_346397640928_pla-353500745642_c__886649525_12768591&utm_custom2=1844702580&gclid=EAIaIQobChMI2Lqc1b_87wIVmq_ICh2JtAFvEAQYASABEgJgj_D_BwE

2)
Errors include the r u s t are not present in the word "trust" due to some error in the coin making process only a blob of metal exists.
EXTREMELY RARE 1982 ERROR Penny image 0
EXTREMELY RARE 1982 ERROR Penny image 1
SimplisticMystic

EXTREMELY RARE 1982 ERROR Penny
$1,000.00

https://www.etsy.com/listing/998326955/extremely-rare-1982-error-penny?ga_order=most_relevant&ga_search_type=all&ga_view_type=gallery&ga_search_query=extremely+rare+penny&ref=sr_gallery-1-1&from_market_listing_grid_organic=1&frs=1

3) I learned, as a child with a mild (or passing interests) in coins and coin collecting that the 1909 DVB Pennies were rare and therefore valuable to collectors:

Type: Vdb Wheat Penny
Year: 1909
Mint Mark: S
Face Value: 0.01 USD
Total Produced: 484,000 [?]
Silver Content: 0%
Numismatic Value: $950.00 to $2200.00
Value: As a rough estimate of this coins value you can assume this coin in average condition will be valued at somewhere around $950.00, while one in certified mint state (MS+) condition could bring as much as $2,200 at auction. This price does not reference any standard coin grading scale. So when we say average, we mean in a similar condition to other coins issued in 1909, and mint state meaning it is certified MS+ by one of the top coin grading companies. [?].

In 1909 there were V.D.B. and Non V.D.B. marked pennies. The VDB Wheat Pennies minted in San Francisco were the rarest of the rare. These coins are worth a nice house payment if you can find on in any condition

https://cointrackers.com/coins/13495/1909-s-vdb-wheat-penny/

The Story Behind The Controversial 1909 VDB Penny & 1909 S VDB Penny

https://coins.thefuntimesguide.com/1909_vdb_penny/

[HitRed]

During WW2 the us put silver and manganese into the nickels because the demand for nickel for armor was so high. They quickly became greasy to the touch due to the manganese. About 10 years ago dad gave me his entire coin collection. Still intact.

[jusplay4fun]

During WW2 the us put silver and manganese into the nickels because the demand for nickel for armor was so high. They quickly became greasy to the touch due to the manganese. About 10 years ago dad gave me his entire coin collection. Still intact.

Interesting. I never heard this story. Manganese and greasy...what a combination..! Thanks for sharing that.

The story goes to show the US effort and commitment to war that occurred during WWII.

{.......A SIDE Note: BUT not near the commitment and the sacrifice of, say, the Russians who lost many men and civilians. The stories of Leningrad and Stalingrad are quite remarkable. I read JUS recently about the Russian Headquarters above a sewer as their "safe place" during much of the fighting in Stalingrad. And the starvation of the civilians is remarkable and horrific too. I suppose the sieges of cities and forts during the Middle Ages are also remarkable. And many people and many nations suffered, NO DOUBT during many wars..... }

My son and his maternal grandfather collected the States Quarters in the 1990s. My son also collected rocks as a child. Those were FUN to watch him do.

[HitRed]

What makes WW2 so interesting to me is every country reoriented 100% of their economy to the war effort. All scientists, machinists, mining, transportation, finance and the military. My grandmother went from stay at home mom to Air Raid Warden.

Interesting fact: Back in the 1930's phone numbers were only 4 digits. My dad's birth certificate shows the hospital's 4 digit phone number. The metal box for his insurance policy also has a 4 digit phone number.

[jusplay4fun]

During WW2 the us put silver and manganese into the nickels because the demand for nickel for armor was so high. They quickly became greasy to the touch due to the manganese. About 10 years ago dad gave me his entire coin collection. Still intact.

More information on composition of possible next generation of US Coins; manganese is an option, as described below:

https://www.coinworld.com/news/precious-metals/us-mint-continues-alternative-metals-experiments.html

U.S. Mint reports experimental metal findings
By Paul Gilkes

Published: Jun 7, 2019, 5 AM

The U.S. Mint’s latest biennial report to Congress on its research into alternative compositions for circulating coins includes potentially seamless options incorporating manganese with varying percentages of copper and nickel.

The Mint terms alternatives that would not require retrofitting of vending equipment as “seamless” options, while options that would require vending machine updates are termed “co-circulating” in the report.

The lowest cost alternative for the current copper-nickel clad dime is nickel-plated steel; for the quarter dollar, a clad alternative with lower percentages of copper and nickel but additional zinc and manganese would lower cost.

The current cent’s planchet has a composition of 99.2 percent zinc and 0.8 percent copper plated with pure copper. The current 5-cent coin is made of a homogenous alloy of 75 percent copper and 25 percent nickel. The dime and quarter dollar planchets are each composed of outer layers of 75 percent copper and 25 percent nickel bonded to a core of pure copper.

The U.S. Mint’s testing of co-circulating options resulted in the development of two “unique” alternatives, involving according to the 2018 report.

The 2018 report is the fourth mandated under The Coin Modernization, Oversight and Continuity Act of 2010, Public Law 11-302.

Previous reports were submitted to Congress in December 2012, December 2014 and June 2017 (for 2016). The 2018-dated report was submitted in April 2019. No formal recommendations were made to adopt any of the options developed.

The 2012 report outlined six potential alloys to replace the current compositions.

The 2014 report addressed which alloys would not work for U.S. coinage and contained recommendations for further research.

The results of that refined research are included in the 2016 report.

[HitRed]

Wow, back to the future.

[jusplay4fun]

Wow, back to the future.

gotta run, but here is more info on steel pennies:

https://www.nationalww2museum.org/war/articles/united-states-money-in-world-war-ii#:~:text=While%20steel%20cents%20lasted%20for,silver%2C%20and%209%20percent%20manganese.

Yes, interesting.

Steel Cents, Silver Nickels, and Invasion Notes: US Money in World War II
America’s coins and paper money underwent a number of changes to serve the war effort during World War II.

December 4, 2020

World War II was a global conflict that required belligerent nations to fully mobilize their economies in order to support their armed forces. Although the continental United States was spared destruction during the conflict, the wartime transformation of the US economy wrought many changes in Americans’ daily lives. The US government instituted rationing of commodities such as sugar, meat, gasoline, tires, and paper. Even the money in Americans’ pockets was redesigned to help win the war.

As the United States accelerated production of everything from planes and ships to tanks and artillery shells after it entered the war in December 1941, the nation faced critical shortages of copper, zinc, and tin. In response, Congress passed a bill in December 1942 that authorized the US Mint to explore the use of alternative materials for pennies in an effort to conserve thousands of pounds of industrial metals for the war effort. After experimenting with materials ranging from tempered glass to plastic, the Mint decided to change the composition of one cent coins from 95 percent copper, 4 percent zinc, and 1 percent tin to steel with a thin coating of zinc to prevent rusting. The Philadelphia, Denver, and San Francisco mints churned out nearly 1.1 billion steel cents and, in doing so, saved more than 40,000 pounds of tin for the war effort. The resulting steel cents, produced exclusively in 1943, saved enough copper to manufacture 1.25 million artillery shells.

Despite the valuable contribution of steel cents, Americans were not pleased by the change from brown to silver-colored pennies. The new coins confused vending machines because of their lighter weight, and people occasionally mistook steel cents for dimes because of their color. In response, the Mint changed the composition of pennies again in 1944. By using metal from recycled shell casings, the Mint was able to produce pennies with a composition of 95 percent copper and 5 percent zinc. This mixture restored the penny’s traditional reddish brown appearance. While steel cents lasted for just one year, the Mint produced shell case cents from 1944 to 1946.

[HitRed]

The war nickels also used melted shell casings with different purities. This is only important to metal detectorists as some nickels are in a mid range and some in a lower range. The nickel range is also where gold is found.

[Iron Maid]

In Europe a lot of countries used Zinc coins during WWII

These are the Dutch coins during that period:

[jusplay4fun]

Topic: US Quarters. Before and up to 1964, US Quarters had an intrinsic value of silver in each coin. Now they are made of a nickel-copper alloy.

Silver quarters weigh 6.25 grams and are composed of 90% silver, 10% copper, with a total silver weight of 0.1808479 troy ounce pure silver.[22] They were issued from 1932 through 1964.

The current rarities for the Washington quarter "silver series" are:

Branch mintmarks are D = Denver, S = San Francisco. Coins without mintmarks are all made at the main Mint in Philadelphia.

The copper-nickel clad Washington quarter was first issued in 1965 and as part of the switch, the Denver mintmark was added in 1968, which did not reappear on any US coin denomination until 1968.......{skip to.....}

the US Congress authorized the Mint to research alternative materials for the silver denominations (dime, quarter dollar, half dollar, and dollar). The material chosen was a 75% copper/ 25% nickel cupronickel alloy (identical to that in the five-cent coin) clad to a core of "commercially pure" (99.5%) copper.[23]

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Quarter_(United_States_coin)#:~:text=Silver%20quarters%20weigh%206.25%20grams,Denver%2C%20S%20%3D%20San%20Francisco.