Israel Plans to Restore Death Penalty for Everyone but Jews

[saxitoxin]

Sorry I haven't been able to keep up with the conversation here--I'm sitting in the Ataturk Airport in Istanbul, Turkey right now waiting for a flight to Cairo. Yesterday I was in Tel Aviv as rockets were fired at the city from Gaza. Some people ran for shelters, others ignored it as the rockets were intercepted by the Iron Dome. The day before we drove down to Mitzpe Ramon, passing within 20 miles of Gaza. We could see the gunships circling amidst clouds of billowing sand. I haven't had access to a computer but I'll try to post some pictures when I get a chance.

Being in the middle of things, I can't say I've had time to do much research on the current situation, however from a quick glance at the incessant, indiscriminate rocket attacks from Gaza on Israeli civilian areas which has continued all through 2014, I see no difficulty in justifying a strong offensive against Hamas.
http://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_ ... rael,_2014

In addition, I have zero respect for an organization which condones human shields, fires on the power plant which supplies its own people with electricity, and whose leader ignores the plight of his own people by rejecting a truce while he remains in safety over 1000 miles away.
http://news.nationalpost.com/2014/07/17 ... rmanently/

Oh good Lord!

It's like you guys are all operating from the same script. These lines have been debunked ten times in the last ten pages without retort and you just keep repeating them; it's like you think if you shout the same cliches enough times ("What would you do if missiles were fired at you?" / "Hamas is using their own people as human shields." / "Israel is the Middle East's only democracy." etc.) eventually everyone will give up and just sign-on. This is the shittiest evangelism I've ever been to - you guys need to check out the Hare Krishnas, they really know how to do it.

Ultimately, though, I get that none of you will be convinced no matter what rational explanation is presented. You've been offered a spot in Heaven if you support Israel. We're not even offering a handjob. There's no way we can compete.

[saxitoxin]

Members of Jewish Voice for Peace confront the warmonger Sen. Chris Murphy (D - Connecticut) due to his decision to join last week's 100-0 vote (Sadaam Hussein only won elections with 92% of the vote) in the U.S. Senate in support of Israel's so-called "right to exist."



Jewish Voice for Peace says "we are humans first, Americans second, Jews third, and Israelis not at all."

The American Zionist Congress says "we are Israelis first, Jews second, Americans third, and humans not at all."

Republicans say immigrants need to assimilate to Anglo-Saxon culture. All groups except one, apparently. For one group treason and subverted loyalty is permitted.

Sorry I haven't been able to keep up with the conversation here--I'm sitting in the Ataturk Airport in Istanbul, Turkey right now waiting for a flight to Cairo. Yesterday I was in Tel Aviv as rockets were fired at the city from Gaza. Some people ran for shelters, others ignored it as the rockets were intercepted by the Iron Dome. The day before we drove down to Mitzpe Ramon, passing within 20 miles of Gaza. We could see the gunships circling amidst clouds of billowing sand. I haven't had access to a computer but I'll try to post some pictures when I get a chance.

Being in the middle of things, I can't say I've had time to do much research on the current situation, however from a quick glance at the incessant, indiscriminate rocket attacks from Gaza on Israeli civilian areas which has continued all through 2014, I see no difficulty in justifying a strong offensive against Hamas.
http://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_ ... rael,_2014

In addition, I have zero respect for an organization which condones human shields, fires on the power plant which supplies its own people with electricity, and whose leader ignores the plight of his own people by rejecting a truce while he remains in safety over 1000 miles away.
http://news.nationalpost.com/2014/07/17 ... rmanently/

Except in the last "defense" Israel killed over 10000, including many children, but lost only 13.

Over a hundred have already been killed in this "defense", but Israel has, so far not lost any.

This is not war, it is not defense.. defense means you are attacking those who are a threat. Kids are not a threat.

The actions of Hammas, etc are criminal. But, you need to ask yourself why it is that so many Palestiniens still support Hammas, even though they don't really agree with its goals. The answer? Israel has given them no choice.

Israel OCCUPIED and CONTROLLED Palestinien lands for decades, flat out stole lands belonging for thousands of years to Palestinien families, using the Bible as their justification. If GOD truly intended them to have those lands, a way would have been provided without stealing.

Palestiniens, fully in Israeli control watched as millions of foreigners were brought in and they themselves were relegated to squallor. Israelis like to claim that the Palestiniens could have built up their own lands, but ignore that Israel severely limiting much commerce. Also, many Arabs had nearly nomaic lifestyles (a fact often used against their claims of ownership). Why should they abandon a lifestyle that WORKED for millenia, just to make the desert look European.

That's not even getting into the environmental issues with Israel destroying the desert.

yes, well said; every point

itmam al-hujjah

[Phatscotty]

I cannot help but note the Palestinians use people as shields to protect their rockets

repeating something a lot doesn't make it true

What's the real deal with the rockets and why, in your perspective?

one more Q (didn't notice a response)

Where are you on suicide bombing? Justified or no, acceptable or no.

[saxitoxin]

I cannot help but note the Palestinians use people as shields to protect their rockets

repeating something a lot doesn't make it true

What's the real deal with the rockets and why, in your perspective?

one more Q (didn't notice a response)

Where are you on suicide bombing? Justified or no, acceptable or no.

Nietzsche answered these questions in a way that is representative of my thoughts.

[universalchiro]

Not well said, not every point.
Israel & palestinians were both given land from Britain in 1947. Israel accepted the deal, but the Arab people said no deal. So the world let them battle it out 1948. And Israel won. Then at peace, Israel was attack while observing Jewish holiday 1967, they won again. The world wants Israel to give up land they captured defending themselves and reset the borders to pre-1967 invasion. That's illogical. Israel defends itself each time and people get mad when they win? Well then stop launching missles at Israel & they won't attack. Period.

The tragedy is Hamas launching rockets near civilians, endangering children when Israel defends itself and takes out that launch site. Hamas should go outside of civilians areas and duke it out with Israel, not launch rockets from homes at Israeli homes.

[saxitoxin]

The tragedy is Hamas launching rockets near civilians, endangering children when Israel defends itself and takes out that launch site.

also, see: viewtopic.php?f=8&t=205619&start=350#p4525017

[Metsfanmax]

Ultimately, though, I get that none of you will be convinced no matter what rational explanation is presented. You've been offered a spot in Heaven if you support Israel. We're not even offering a handjob. There's no way we can compete.

ITT: saxi gets angered when people call him an anti-Semite for saying Israel is a monster, and in return calls everyone who doesn't openly criticize Israel's every action a Jew.

[universalchiro]

Well well well, a new level of discussion. I agree with your point, but associating what I wrote with Joseph Goebbels is a clever way of either calling my statement a lie or that Israel is telling a lie & I have bought into it as truth. Either way its still dubious to associate the atrocities of WW2 at the hands of Germany to Israel defending herself. Very clever propoganda.

I don't imagine you object to Israel defending herself do you? After all pages 1-10 clarify that you are for a country defending themselves. So is it that you object to how well Israel is performing? Or is it that they are Jews and don't deserve to have a country at all?
Clarify your view please, thank you.

[Dukasaur]

Sorry I haven't been able to keep up with the conversation here--I'm sitting in the Ataturk Airport in Istanbul, Turkey right now waiting for a flight to Cairo. Yesterday I was in Tel Aviv as rockets were fired at the city from Gaza. Some people ran for shelters, others ignored it as the rockets were intercepted by the Iron Dome. The day before we drove down to Mitzpe Ramon, passing within 20 miles of Gaza. We could see the gunships circling amidst clouds of billowing sand. I haven't had access to a computer but I'll try to post some pictures when I get a chance.

Being in the middle of things, I can't say I've had time to do much research on the current situation, however from a quick glance at the incessant, indiscriminate rocket attacks from Gaza on Israeli civilian areas which has continued all through 2014, I see no difficulty in justifying a strong offensive against Hamas.
http://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_ ... rael,_2014

In addition, I have zero respect for an organization which condones human shields, fires on the power plant which supplies its own people with electricity, and whose leader ignores the plight of his own people by rejecting a truce while he remains in safety over 1000 miles away.
http://news.nationalpost.com/2014/07/17 ... rmanently/

Oh good Lord!

It's like you guys are all operating from the same script. These lines have been debunked handwaved-at ten times in the last ten pages without retort and you just keep repeating them; it's like you think if you shout the same cliches enough times ("What would you do if missiles were fired at you?" / "Hamas is using their own people as human shields." / "Israel is the Middle East's only democracy." etc.) eventually everyone will give up and just sign-on. This is the shittiest evangelism I've ever been to - you guys need to check out the Hare Krishnas, they really know how to do it.

Ultimately, though, I get that none of you will be convinced no matter what rational explanation is presented. You've been offered a spot in Heaven if you support Israel. We're not even offering a handjob. There's no way we can compete.

I've read these 10 pages and at no point have I found any of the alleged debunking. Just a lot of handwaving and vitriolic rhetoric.

Let's look at these alleged "cliches" that you allege to have "debunked."
("What would you do if missiles were fired at you?"
Well, what would you do? I have yet to see an answer.

Just to see how bad the problem is, I decided to look at the wikipedia page for rocket attacks from Gaza.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Palestinian_rocket_attacks_on_Israel

Attacks began in 2001. Since then, nearly 4,800 rockets have hit southern Israel, just over 4,000 of them since Israel withdrew from the Gaza Strip in August 2005. The range of the rockets has increased over time. The original Qassam rocket has a range of about 10 km (6.2 mi) but more advanced rockets, including versions of the old Soviet Grad or Katyusha have hit Israeli targets 40 km (25 mi) from Gaza.[26]

Some analysts see the attacks as a shift away from reliance on suicide bombing, which was previously Hamas's main method of attacking Israel, and an adoption of the rocket tactics used by Lebanese militant group Hezbollah.[27]

Gaza is approximately the size of Essex County, New Jersey in land area, albeit with three time the population. Essex County is within range to hit populated targets in New York City with homemade missiles. If over the last decade, 4800 missiles had been fired into schoolyards and hospital parking lots in New York City, what do you think New Yorkers would have done by now?

Think you're capable of stopping the handwaving and answering the question?

"Hamas is using their own people as human shields."
This one I might almost grant you. I don't see you "debunking" it, but you and others (mainly others) have raised some legitimate questions about whether western media have exaggerated the importance and magnitude of the "human shield" strategy being used by Hamas. It's hardly a "debunking", but I'll grant you that some doubts exist.

"Israel is the Middle East's only democracy."
Okay, Turkey is more-or-less a democracy, and Lebanon is making a reasonable effort at it, with mixed results. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lebanon#Government_and_politics

Until 1975, Freedom House considered Lebanon to be one of only two (together with Israel) politically free countries in the Middle East and North Africa region.[95] The country lost this status with the outbreak of the Civil War, and never regained it again. Lebanon was rated as "Partly Free" in 2013.[95]

Among the others (16 nations in the Middle East, + or - depending on where you want to draw the line) can you name even a single one that is not either

1. A vicious military dictatorship maintained by firepower, or
2. A theocracy run by Jihadist extremists who execute dissenters without remorse, or
3. Currently in the midst of an upheaval which will eventually result in either a. or b. as above, or
4. An absolute monarchy with some elements of a. and some elements of b.

Didn't think so.

[saxitoxin]

Gaza is approximately the size of Essex County, New Jersey in land area, albeit with three time the population. Essex County is within range to hit populated targets in New York City with homemade missiles. If over the last decade, 4800 missiles had been fired into schoolyards and hospital parking lots in New York City, what do you think New Yorkers would have done by now?

It's seriously like you guys all have the IDF hasbara script in front of you while you're typing. "Time for Cliche #27: 70% of Israelis are living within range of a rocket. What would you do in their situation?"

Only someone who has lived in a cave hasn't heard each of these cliches ten thousand times. Do you have any opinions that don't come from IDF infographics and Pat Robertson sermons?

As for the rest of your post, it's so utterly racist, moronic and bereft of even basic facts there's no need for me to reply. Howl and catcall all you want, but it would be like we were discussing the formation of the Moon and you insisted we start by debating what kind of cheese it's made out of - you're such a complete dullard that I have no problem breezing by your idiocy safe in the idea that no one except your friends in the holy roller Amen! chorus, whom I care about not one iota (see below), will accuse me of dodging your so-called "points."

ITT: saxi gets angered when people call him an anti-Semite for saying Israel is a monster, and in return calls everyone who doesn't openly criticize Israel's every action a Jew.

GFY. I was referring to universalchiro, and the rest of the Israeli nutcases, and their evangelical belief that killing all Arabs will lead to the resurrection of Jesus as you very well know. I love how you pretend to be this cool, rational, scientist but don't blink as genocide supporters come in here quoting scripture and bible prophecy to support their position, and magnify it by jumping in on their side and firing off the intellectually bankrupt "Anti-Semite" label.

Well well well, a new level of discussion. I agree with your point, but associating what I wrote with Joseph Goebbels is a clever way of either calling my statement a lie or that Israel is telling a lie & I have bought into it as truth. Either way its still dubious to associate the atrocities of WW2 at the hands of Germany to Israel defending herself. Very clever propoganda.

I don't imagine you object to Israel defending herself do you? After all pages 1-10 clarify that you are for a country defending themselves. So is it that you object to how well Israel is performing? Or is it that they are Jews and don't deserve to have a country at all?
Clarify your view please, thank you.

I don't mean to be rude, but there's no point in me discussing this topic with you. You've established that you absolutely believe a supernatural deity has ordered you to support Israel and in exchange he will reanimate the corpses of your dead relatives and turn you into a disembodied being that can live on Pluto. At that point the debate is over. There is literally nothing I can say to top that so there is no point in engaging with you. It would be like me trying to convince a watch to stop ticking. I'm sorry.

[universalchiro]

Saxi, Fair enough.

I don't think all Israelis are good, nor all Jews, even the magna Carta has a provision for Jewish usury in money lending & the Rothschilds have their hands deep in funding both sides of many wars and financially enslaving many people with their fiat American currency, so not all Jews are good and only 144,000 Jews are sealed in Revelation Armageddon. I had many patients that are Muslim born and raise in Tehran, Iran. Just lovely people. But I see your point of not debating a zealot for the scriptures, makes sense.

I was raised that if a bully hit me, my daddy told me to hit them back enough times that they either never do it again or think really hard before attacking me. Yet, there is a point where retaliation or defending oneself too much is no longer a tenable argument. Even in the courts one cannot say they were defending themselves as they shoot someone in the back that is fleeing. So at some point Israel should cease fire. I am sickened of the youth dying.
Thanks for being cordial to me through all your responses, you have my respect.

[saxitoxin]

Saxi, Fair enough.

I don't think all Israelis are good, nor all Jews, even the magna Carta has a provision for Jewish usury in money lending & the Rothschilds have their hands deep in funding both sides of many wars and financially enslaving many people with their fiat American currency, so not all Jews are good and only 144,000 Jews are sealed in Revelation Armageddon. I had many patients that are Muslim born and raise in Tehran, Iran. Just lovely people. So I see your point of not debating a zealot for the scriptures, makes sense.

I was raised that if a bully hit me, my daddy told me to hit them back enough times that they either never do it again or think really hard before attacking me. Yet, there is a point where retaliation or defending oneself too much is no longer a tenable argument. Even in the courts one cannot say they were defending themselves as they shoot someone in the back that is fleeing. So at some point Israel should cease fire. I sickened of the youth dying.
Thanks for being cordial to me through all your responses, you have my respect.

Thanks, and I apologize that my last reply was pithy and curt. This is a topic I should know better than to discuss, for a variety of reasons, and I regret my aggressively toned comments I made to you.

[patches70]

Saxi is correct when he says there are certain elements who support Israel because of religious prophecy. Since everyone interprets said religious prophecies in their own way it can get...messy if the wrong person with a harmful belief system with the conviction of prophetic events has the power to do things. Like start wars, engage in nation level sabotage, espionage and the likes.

People die and terrible things happen, all justified by a warped view of religious beliefs.

It is right and good for people to be wary.

I know some factions who would be shudder scary if they ever got to believing they were the chosen people and thus believe they could do no wrong because God stands with them.

If God is for us, who can be against us? A good question from Romans, one that has been used for bad things. God is with us so that those against us must be of the evil one.

Except people forget what the question was answering, that is that question is rhetorical and was used to answer another question.

If Israel is indeed the Chosen people, like any who are chosen by God, then all the things done by such people will work together for good.

So ask yourself, what good is going to come from what Israel is doing right now? Will this pacify the Palestinians? Is the bombing of women and children "good"?

Yes, being the Chosen people and believing that can lead some to rather bad decisions driven by faith of a misinterpretation, an absolute corruption of what it means to be "the Chosen".

But meh, people justify their actions all kinds of ways I guess. But that particular line has been used by Generals, Kings and Tyrants to justify themselves and their actions, no matter how atrocious those actions may be.

[Metsfanmax]

GFY. I was referring to universalchiro, and the rest of the Israeli nutcases, and their evangelical belief that killing all Arabs will lead to the resurrection of Jesus as you very well know.

Yes, but you made a blanket statement about everyone here who has disagreed with you, and this is not the first time that you've implied that some of us are Israel supporters merely because we don't agree with your seemingly picturesque view of the Arabs.

I love how you pretend to be this cool, rational, scientist but don't blink as genocide supporters come in here quoting scripture and bible prophecy to support their position, and magnify it by jumping in on their side and firing off the intellectually bankrupt "Anti-Semite" label.

I'm not jumping on their side, and I wasn't condoning the anti-Semite label. That was the whole point of my comment -- it is a ridiculous argument, and you should know better than to stoop to their level.

[universalchiro]

Saxi, no worries. It takes so much strength and character to write/say "I am sorry", you sir are a giant of a man, I tip my hat to you and say I love you too (in a plotonic heterosexual way).

[saxitoxin]

GFY. I was referring to universalchiro, and the rest of the Israeli nutcases, and their evangelical belief that killing all Arabs will lead to the resurrection of Jesus as you very well know.

Yes, but you made a blanket statement about everyone here who has disagreed with you, and this is not the first time that you've implied that some of us are Israel supporters merely because we don't agree with your seemingly picturesque view of the Arabs.

Reading the increasingly not-so-covert racism in this thread I feel like I just stepped into a time machine to the 1920s. A hundred years ago "your seemingly picturesque view of the Arabs" would have read "your seemingly picturesque view of the Negroes." Fortunately the police have machine guns to cow the Arabs (be sure to watch out for the Arabess, however). It would be even better if we could herd them together and safely cage them, don't you agree? But we'd be very humane - we'll throw food into the cage and have doctors look at them sometimes. And we can even let the agreeable ones out provided they first prove they won't try to fly about on their magic carpets and summon djinn. Oh, wait, someone's already doing that!

[Dukasaur]

Gaza is approximately the size of Essex County, New Jersey in land area, albeit with three time the population. Essex County is within range to hit populated targets in New York City with homemade missiles. If over the last decade, 4800 missiles had been fired into schoolyards and hospital parking lots in New York City, what do you think New Yorkers would have done by now?

It's seriously like you guys all have the IDF hasbara script in front of you while you're typing. "Time for Cliche #27: 70% of Israelis are living within range of a rocket. What would you do in their situation?"

Only someone who has lived in a cave hasn't heard each of these cliches ten thousand times. Do you have any opinions that don't come from IDF infographics and Pat Robertson sermons?

As for the rest of your post, it's so utterly racist, moronic and bereft of even basic facts there's no need for me to reply. Howl and catcall all you want, but it would be like we were discussing the formation of the Moon and you insisted we start by debating what kind of cheese it's made out of - you're such a complete dullard that I have no problem breezing by your idiocy safe in the idea that no one except your friends in the holy roller Amen! chorus, whom I care about not one iota (see below), will accuse me of dodging your so-called "points."

For all your vomiting of insults upon the screen, you still say nothing that would address the point. You might just as well have said

Double, double toil and trouble;
Fire burn, and cauldron bubble.
Fillet of a fenny snake,
In the caldron boil and bake;
Eye of newt, and toe of frog,
Wool of bat, and tongue of dog,
Adder's fork, and blind-worm's sting,
Lizard's leg, and owlet's wing,—
For a charm of powerful trouble,
Like a hell-broth boil and bubble.

for all the sense you're making.

All this gesticulating and shrieking and jumping up and down on the stage is just to try to distract the audience from seeing that you STILL have not answered the question. You cannot answer the question, because to answer it honestly would expose the monstrous double standard that your position is based on.

If you were a resident of New York City, and 4800 times in the last decade your life and limb had been put in danger because of some violent gang of street thugs in Hoboken, led by some crazy religious cultist who preached your extermination, would you calmly shrug your soldiers and say, "c'est la vie," or would you get on the horn to the NYPD, the New York National Guard, the Pentagon, the State Department, and anybody else you know of, and demand that something be done about those thugs?

Stop the ridiculous showmanship, and either answer the question or admit that you can't answer the question honestly, because to do so would expose the hypocrisy at the core of your position.

[saxitoxin]

If you were a resident of New York City, and 4800 times in the last decade your life and limb had been put in danger because of some violent gang of street thugs in Hoboken, led by some crazy religious cultist who preached your extermination, would you calmly shrug your soldiers and say, "c'est la vie," or would you get on the horn to the NYPD, the New York National Guard, the Pentagon, the State Department, and anybody else you know of, and demand that something be done about those thugs?

I'm so fucking sick of you and the rest of the bible thumpers regurgitating the "What would you do?" IDF narrative. It makes you look like a bunch of imbeciles and morons because it's literally the only foot you put forward and you do it, like clockwork, during each of Israel's bi-annual culling of the herd. It's so predictable that it's easy to prepare a counter-narrative; what is maddening, though, is that those never phase you. You simply keep screaming "WHAT WOULD YOU DO?" as loud as you can; your approach isn't to provide logical rebuttal, simply to drown out everyone. This is the fourth time in this thread the "WHAT WOULD YOU DO?" narrative has been screamed with increasing hysteria, despite it being debunked each time. You or Gabby take a beat, and then a couple posts later reappear to start screaming "WHAT WOULD YOU DO?" some more.

In other words, go f*ck yourself Dukasaur you pathetic old racist f*ck.

[Dukasaur]

So in other words you can't answer the question.

[saxitoxin]

So in other words you can't answer the question.

In other words, I will not entertain your race-baiting. Your sick IDF puke is the equivalent to "If you were a resident of a nice part of Manhattan and you couldn't walk home at night because the resident monkey-people periodically migrated from Harlem and tried to breed with your women because that's how their type are, what would you do?"

I would not answer that either, no matter how much you shrieked and screamed and pounded your chest and demanded a response. You're either a total moron and don't realize what you're doing, or you're a fucking old racist kook and know exactly what you're doing. Bets are going both ways right now.

[Pirlo]

Not well said, not every point.
Israel & palestinians were both given land from Britain in 1947. Israel accepted the deal, but the Arab people said no deal. So the world let them battle it out 1948. And Israel won. Then at peace, Israel was attack while observing Jewish holiday 1967, they won again. The world wants Israel to give up land they captured defending themselves and reset the borders to pre-1967 invasion. That's illogical. Israel defends itself each time and people get mad when they win? Well then stop launching missles at Israel & they won't attack. Period.

The tragedy is Hamas launching rockets near civilians, endangering children when Israel defends itself and takes out that launch site. Hamas should go outside of civilians areas and duke it out with Israel, not launch rockets from homes at Israeli homes.

The same old shit debate.. let's start again!

Why should one accept to be replaced by a stranger? Who are Brits to decide who takes what?

If a random mobster with a shot gun broke into your own house and decided you take one room and give up the rest of it, including the backyard, to me, it would be a hell pf a deal.. I should definitely accept it and I see no reason for you to do especially if was told you would have no access to kitchen, food, water, bathroom.. etc

Oh let me guess why you should accept it... because the bible said so!

[BigBallinStalin]

If you were a resident of New York City, and 4800 times in the last decade your life and limb had been put in danger because of some violent gang of street thugs in Hoboken, led by some crazy religious cultist who preached your extermination, would you calmly shrug your soldiers and say, "c'est la vie," or would you get on the horn to the NYPD, the New York National Guard, the Pentagon, the State Department, and anybody else you know of, and demand that something be done about those thugs?

Stop the ridiculous showmanship, and either answer the question or admit that you can't answer the question honestly, because to do so would expose the hypocrisy at the core of your position.

Okay, if someone committed a crime in my neighborhood, what's the reasonable response?

1. call the police
2. call the Armed Forces to bombard a nearby neighborhood where the criminals might be

The Israeli government picks #2 nearly every time. That doesn't seem reasonable.
(or maybe your 'what would you do' analogy really isn't relevant).


This is a better approximation: the Israeli government is and has been actively seeking to exterminate and/or marginalize the Palestinians within Israeli borders and the Palestinian territories. This is OBVIOUS through the continued settlement programs in Palestinian territory, the constant warmongering, and the constant refusal to agree to (or credibly commit to) any peace treaty. The Israeli government really doesn't seek peace; it only does so when Israeli citizens feel that war weariness, but when that wears off, it's back to the bombing campaign. Israel has a permanent war economy (just like the US), so they'll keep pushing that War button, and they'll never have to sue for peace.

You're talking about a regime which used its CIA-equivalent, Mossad, to torture thousands of Palestinians--most of whom were innocent. For a nice comparison, recall the CIA's Phoenix program in Vietnam or its lovely escapade in GTMO, Abu Ghraib, Bagram, and its affiliates in 3rd world countries.

That's what you're defending, and your "what would you do" question doesn't address the history of violence and oppression committed by Israel. You just throw out that history and implicitly assume, "those crazy Arabs started it all, Israeli citizens are the only victims worth considering, and military action is somehow justified."


Regarding: "violent gang of street thugs in Hoboken, led by some crazy religious cultist," are you talking about the Israeli government or Hamas? Any military which supports Israel settlement thugs driving into nearby Palestinian towns to terrorize the populace is pretty thuggish to me. The Orthodox Jews in Israel tend to be the crazy religious cultists which constantly push for war (and for theocracy--you know, like the kind they got going in Iran and had going in AFG under the Taliban). I'm just sayin' that your characterization cuts both ways (and is essentially prejudiced against Palestinians, so sax calling you a racist is understandable).

[GreecePwns]

Can we agree to stop calling "settlement" that which is more accurately described as ethnic cleansing?

[patrickaa317]

I'm pretty much on the fence with this issue, as I'm not an expert on the whole history. I'd like each side to give me the exact reason why Israel is or is not justified in their actions. And same with the Palestinians. I'll probably play devils advocate with your response to challenge your answer.

[patches70]

I'm pretty much on the fence with this issue, as I'm not an expert on the whole history. I'd like each side to give me the exact reason why Israel is or is not justified in their actions. And same with the Palestinians. I'll probably play devils advocate with your response to challenge your answer.

I'm not going to delve into the past conflicts, but concentrate on this current campaign by Israel, if that's ok by you?

Israel justified this attack because of the three teens that were murdered. Israel claims Hamas carried out the kidnapping and murder of the three teens. Thus, Israel claims she is defending herself from Hamas aggression and can then be justified in dropping 100's of tons of munition upon Gaza. Previous to these Israeli attacks, Israel ran rampant through the West Bank as well. At least 23 Palestinians were killed in those raids as the West Bank was locked down.

It is interesting to note that the three teens were in the West Bank when they were kidnapped. Gaza is on the other side of Israel opposite the West Bank.

Israel hasn't proven that it was Hamas who carried out the kidnapping and murders. Maybe they did, we just don't know and can't know since there are no trials where actual evidence is presented and judged, legally.
It could very well be that the three teens were murdered in a drug deal gone wrong, we just don't know.

I don't think it's very wise or even beneficial to Israel's overall security to collectively punish the Palestinians for what could very well have been a heinous crime perpetrated by individuals for reasons completely unrelated to Hamas/Israel relations. Instead of being rational and trying to answer such questions, Israel instead decided to just bomb the hell out of Gaza, launch a ground offensive where at least 300 Palestinians have already died, many of them women and children who no one could claim had anything at all to do with the murder of the three Israeli teens, the root basis of the justification of Israel's current actions.

Since Gaza is being bombed, I'm not sure any fair minded person can reasonably assume that Hamas shouldn't retaliate with whatever means they have at their disposal from Israel's blatant aggression in this case. Since Hamas' only means of retaliation is rocket attacks with rather unsophisticated rockets for the most part, one should expect that Hamas would fire rockets in response. After all, don't the Palestinians have a right to defend themselves as well?

This whole situation could have and should have been handled in a much more rational and legal way instead of just air striking the densely packed Gaza strip. But that ship has sailed and only makes reconciliation even more difficult.

It is not unreasonable for one to say that Israel, who clearly holds the far greater power in the situation, has no interest at all in reconciliation or peace with the Palestinians for that matter.


The "we need to defend ourselves" is all well and good, but at some point a rational human being can tell when actions veer from a legitimate defense to plain military aggression. It is not unreasonable for people to say that in this case Israel has crossed that particular line and is not not defending themselves but are the clear aggressor that is resulting in the deaths of civilians. It is not unreasonable or racist for people to call out Israel's barbaric implementation of collective punishment upon people who had nothing to do with the events that Israel is publicly using to justify their actions.

If there are other reasons why Israel is doing this, then Israel hasn't announced or acknowledge those reasons. Since the recent (last month) reconciliation between Hamas and the Palestinian Authority to form a coherent and united coalition government, it is not unreasonable for people to speculate that Israel's primary reason for attacking Gaza is to split Palestinian factions from cooperating with each other. But Israel doesn't acknowledge this is the reason, which would fit better with Israel's claim to be defending itself (by weakening her enemies) but would also show that Israel's sole goal is to keep the Palestinians subjugated to Israeli power.
Which brings a whole host of new concerns which further paints Israel as less than moral.

Israel negotiates with the Palestinians by pointing a load gun at their collective heads. This is coercion and invalidates the notion of negotiating in good faith, obviously.

Sorry for the long post.