Israel Plans to Restore Death Penalty for Everyone but Jews

[2dimes]

This djinn thread would be better with pictures of Barbera Eden.

[mrswdk]

I wonder how many more posts it will be before you start telling us how you think "the blacks" need to stop doing drugs and "the Asians" need to start driving better.

Asians do need to start driving better.

[saxitoxin]

When someone says "LOL" they usually don't mean it. In this case I, very literally, am laughing out loud at this very moment! Bravo, Mets. Bravo. You should really think about working out a syndication deal with Comedy Central to livestream your thesis defense. I have a feeling it's gonna be a doozy.

When you're actually willing to discuss facts instead of talking like a partisan ideologue, let me know. I mean, pretty much this entire thread is you committing endless examples of the ad hominem fallacy.

Actually, don't let me know. If you're capable of being this disrespectful about my character as a scientist for absolutely no apparent reason, I have zero interest in conversing with you.

Sorry, the righteous indignation act won't cut it. Is identifying reliable sources not important in physics or did you miss that day? (For those just joining, here is the original exchange.)

You used a Bible prophecy website to support your Zionist line, then doubled-down by citing a press statement by the IDF (one of the belligerents in the conflict) and an article on Breitbart. After having the veracity of the sources you're using to form your opinion pointed out, you refused to accept that - in fact - your position may be factually bankrupt.

The absence of any reputable, non-Bible based support for the Israeli position is a cornerstone of this discussion (not just this thread, but the larger discussion outside it). To expect me not to point it out is to demand I abandon a central element of our argument. I did it with Dukasaur and GabonX and I'm doing it with you.

[saxitoxin]

MondoWeiss has collated photos of the hundreds of rallies against "Israel" that took place across the world this weekend. No supporters of "Israel" anywhere. Nowhere. Israel is surrounded and isolated. The people of the world have convened a court of public opinion and found Israel guilty.

Ottawa


Stockholm


Tokyo


Chicago


Cape Town


London

[saxitoxin]

Bedouin citizens of Israel are at risk of injury or death if caught in rocket fire from Palestinian necessary and justified self-defense operations. They need air raid shelters. However, Israel has declared that air raid shelters will only be made available to God's chosen people, because their lives are more important. The goyim trash are required to fend for themselves.

In Israel, two civilians have been killed. One was a Bedouin, the 32-year-old Oudi Lafi al-Waj, who lived in a village in the Negev (Naqab) desert, near Dimona.

Bedouin villages do not have air raid sirens, nor are they covered by Iron Dome. They also lack bomb shelters.

Now, Israel wants to include a Bedouin man in its civilian casualty toll.

But Israel claims al-Waj in death only. And the state will surely exploit his death to justify its military operation in Gaza. But in life, in Israel, al-Waj was less than a civilian. He was just a Bedouin—not worthy of basic services or even shelter against rockets.

http://972mag.com/israels-bedouin-civil ... one/93965/

[BigBallinStalin]

BBS, I agree with most of that, but when we get to:

You just throw out that history and implicitly assume, "those crazy Arabs started it all, Israeli citizens are the only victims worth considering, and military action is somehow justified.

The problem here is that who is responsible for/started the conflict depends on what historical time period we choose to use for our baseline. (Kind of like how global warming deniers pick starting dates for their temperature trends to make it seem like the trends are weaker.) And also it depends on lots of other factors. Like, I generally think the Arab community had the right to reject the UN partition plan, as a narrow issue, but obviously that decision and its effects cannot be evaluated in isolation.

I totes agree. That quote of mine refers to the implicit assumptions that I tend to find in the 'what would you do' argument.


Tangent:
RE: the who owned what first issue, sure, governments have rolled through Palestine for years, but I'm really not seeing any legitimate claim by the Israelis on the land (short of the religious one). Even though the governments have flipped through, you still have individuals living in generally the same spots over generations, so for those that look to governments' claims, I don't find that way particularly helpful.

Suddenly, Ben Gurion and his boys roll in and say, "this is ours; shut up, we own it now." Clearly, that's a property rights violation--on a scale larger than previous governments/empires' policies toward Palestine in the past. The Israelis systematically removed the locals and kept them out to a degree larger than what the Serbs and Croatians were doing to each other in the 90s (a.k.a. ethnic cleansing/relocation).

People tend to overlook that history behind the 'what would you do' argument too.

[BigBallinStalin]

Yeah and Hamas also violated the 5-hour ceasefire the other day by firing rockets into Israel but saxi conveniently left that out because apparently it's only possible for him to support an idealized version of the Palestinians instead of the ones they actually have (and therefore the ones who actually need the support).

You rail against me for unfairly accusing you of siding with the looney-tune Bible thumpers then try to counter me by citing a website called Breaking Israel News - Latest News Biblical Perspective! that - in a 200 word story on current events - quotes scripture twice.

And you're an "astronomer"? What are you submitting for your thesis, the script to Star Trek?

You are an absolute treasure, Mets. Please keep posting.

Stop being a tool, I just picked a random one of the sources I found for that claim. There are plenty more, but you won't bother to look them up because of confirmation bias. (Boom, two psychology phrases in one page! I've just been reading Kahneman's Thinking, Fast and Slow so I can't resist.)

http://time.com/3001132/gaza-israel-mortars-cease-fire/
http://www.jpost.com/Operation-Protective-Edge/Isolated-rocket-fire-hits-southern-Israel-amid-humanitarian-cease-fire-363165
http://www.breitbart.com/Big-Peace/2014/07/17/Op-Protective-Edge-Day-10-Hamas-Violates-Ceasefire-As-IDF-Thwarts-Major-Terror-Attack
http://njjewishnews.com/article/24034/rockets-strike-eshkol-regionduring-humanitarian-cease-fire#.U8xdTVG9CMc

The IDF even posted it about it on their Twitter. But I suppose they completely fabricated it, yes?

Kahneman's book is great! But don't take the Prospect Theory too seriously. It's the most flawed part of the book because it really glosses over the weak evidence of the theory, but the theory does provide some handy ways of describing some phenomena (e.g. status quo bias, preference reversal, etc.).

The experiments which 'confirm' the various parts of that theory generally rely on minor trade-offs--e.g. people playing with a $5 mug as oppose to 100 $5 mugs. The low sample size and having only lab settings offer weak support too.

[patrickaa317]

saxi - you may have missed it but there is a question for you at the bottom of the last page.

[JPcelticfc]

There is no doubt in my mind that the actions of Israel are beyond reproach.

They have backed the Palestinian people into a corner. It has been under blockade for 7 years. There are few jobs, food is sparse, the limited resources available are having to be split among a expanding population. They do not even have the right to leave the Gaza strip as they have no passports. In this situation, how any people would try and improve their living conditions. Israel have fostered the conditions, and continue to do so that make conflict inevitable.

The comparisons to my own place of birth in the North of Ireland are obvious. Conflict here eventually ended after 30 years. when the two sides got to together and talked. The fact Israel even refuses to talk to Hamas means this conflict will drag on for a very long time.

[a6mzero]

Saxi still never has a bad word to say about all the murderous dictators and religious fanatics killing and torturing their people through out the rest of the middle east. I guess if a palestian dictator was killing and torturing his own {oh wait Hamas already fills the role} it would be a ok with Saxi.

[GreecePwns]

Re: the photos of pro-Palestine protests around the world, the one in Times Square this past weekend filled two city blocks while the pro-Israel protest going on at the same time had a grand total of 15 attendees. In New York City of all places in the world, there were more Jews in the pro-Palestine rally than the pro-Israel rally...

[a6mzero]

Israel could agree to go back to pre 1967 borders and make Jerusalem an open city and ThePalestinians would take that offering and continue to launch rockets and blow up buses and teach all their kindergarden age kids to aspire to kill jews. Israel trying to coexist peacefully with Palestinians is like a person trying to share their house with a rattlesnake.

[Metsfanmax]

The absence of any reputable, non-Bible based support for the Israeli position is a cornerstone of this discussion (not just this thread, but the larger discussion outside it). To expect me not to point it out is to demand I abandon a central element of our argument. I did it with Dukasaur and GabonX and I'm doing it with you.

So basically, what happened here is that saxi ignored my citation to Time because of what I can only assume is its biblical foundations but one of his main sources of information is Mondoweiss, an explicitly anti-ZIonist news organization.

[GabonX]

Sure, sax is extreme, but he still posts significantly more legitimate sources than you do. Have you not read his last post? Are you suggesting that you've been doing a better job than he? It doesn't look like it, and I don't even agree with saxitoxin.

I did read his last post and there weren't any sources. There were anti Israel editorials from well known publications, but in terms of information presented Saxitoxin didn't prove anything other than journalists exist that don't like Israel.

The article I posted was fine, as was the source, and the story was accurate. The only issue anyone took with it was that it was a Jewish article, and therefore untrustworthy by Saxitoxin's standards. Here's a few others from non Jewish sources which all report the same thing for good measure:

A synagogue near the Bastille was under police guard on Monday after more than 100 youths chanting "Israel murderer" tried to storm the building following a march demanding an end to Israeli air strikes on Gaza.
http://www.theguardian.com/world/2014/j ... -synagogue

Police also blocked off a group of protesters from entering two synagogues, according to AP. One of the synagogues was attacked during a service, with worshippers briefly blocked inside. Police successfully pushed back the protesters, and those stuck inside were then able to leave, according to a police spokeswoman.
http://rt.com/news/172492-france-march-pro-palestinian/

Gary Assouline, a former reporter for Le Figaro who lives near one of the synagogues, live-tweeted the incident, saying that members of the rue de la Roquette congregation were forced to stay inside for more than an hour as the assault occurred. He linked to a video posted by another resident that showed the scene 20 meters away from the building.
http://www.businessinsider.com/pro-pale ... z38AJKxSxB

So if you guys can find any problems with the information in the link I posted before:
http://www.timesofisrael.com/clashes-in ... offensive/

other than it's of Israeli/Jewish origin I'd like to to hear it. If not we can chalk this up as another example of what you call Saxitoxin's confirmation bias, but what I would call a clear example of his antisemitism.


For the record, the violent anti Jewish riots in France that Saxitoxin supports have continued since last week when we first spoke...

Sarcelles (France) (AFP) - France's interior minister on Monday slammed "intolerable" acts of anti-Semitism after a rally against Israel's Gaza offensive descended into violence pitting an angry pro-Palestinian crowd against local Jewish businesses.

Sunday's demonstration in the north Paris suburb of Sarcelles was the third to deteriorate in a week, as shops were looted and riot police lobbed tear gas and rubber bullets at the crowd.

The rally had been banned amid concern the Jewish community would be targeted after protesters last weekend tried to storm two synagogues in Paris.

"When you head for the synagogue, when you burn a corner shop because it is Jewish-owned, you are committing an anti-Semitic act," Bernard Cazeneuve told reporters outside the Sarcelles synagogue.

In the Paris suburb sometimes nicknamed "little Jerusalem" for its large community of Sephardic Jews, the rally descended into chaos when dozens of youth -- some masked -- set fire to bins and lit firecrackers and smoke bombs.

Eighteen people were arrested after looters wrecked shops, including a kosher foodstore and a funeral home as protesters shouted: "f*ck Israel!".
http://news.yahoo.com/french-minister-s ... 8A0HLQtDMD

So let me ask BBS... Do you support these protests which evolve into antisemitic riots like Saxitoxin said he did back on page 14? Do you deny that they're happening?

Good job:

For the record I keep posting that tired old picture, all of a few days old, because it powerfully shows the position of the average Israeli as opposed to Saxitoxin's anti Semitic rants about how they're all psychopathic cult members.

Let's think critically for a second. Where has saxitoxin said that the average/all Israelis are "psychopathic cult members"?

Also, why do you keep playing that tired old "anti-semite!" card? That tactic is a logical fallacy; people use it so that they don't have to address another person's valid concerns. Seriously, people can be critical of the Israeli government and not be anti-Semites. Calm down and think.

It's a fallacy to claim that information should be dismissed because of the source, something which Saxitoxin does with anything Jewish, or anything at all really, that's pro Israel under the rational that it's "Zionist." Whether or not the information can be verified by cross referencing a multitude of other sources is irrelevant. I have been addressing things as I have time to, but Saxitoxin has yet to touch on even some of the most elementary elements of this issue other than to dismiss them outright, and for some reason he gets a pass from you but I'm committing a fallacy for calling his antisemitism what it is...

His entire approach to this issue, without exception, is to portray Israel and it's supporters as psychopathic cult members, and to disregard any humanitarian concern for the other side or to consider why they act as they do. According to Saxitoxin they all just use their bible's to justify killing Arab children, a position which more accurately describes Hamas who he defends...

I wrote a fairly extensive post back on page 12, but here's a couple examples...

Even the name of their attack is a reference to their religious zealotry. The Israelis are convinced they are implementing the will of God, like any run of the mill cult.

Like any cult, these types of emotionally distraught outcasts are who Birthright targets for their brainwashing. (Look at this kid's wild, crazed eyes. It's fucking unbelievable. He looks like he's ready to run out and start gunning down Arab toddlers at that very moment.)

I'm so fucking sick of you and the rest of the bible thumpers regurgitating the "What would you do?" IDF narrative. It makes you look like a bunch of imbeciles and morons because it's literally the only foot you put forward and you do it, like clockwork, during each of Israel's bi-annual culling of the herd.

GabonX, two questions:

1- If the Bible scripture you believe justifies Israel's universally and internationally condemned war crimes said you could (a) sacrifice Israel to bring eternal peace to the U.S., or, (b) sacrifice Ohio to bring eternal peace to Israel, which would you choose?

For the record, I've never used bible verse to justify my positions on this or any other issue on this site. It's simply not a part of my world view, but Saxitoxin reveals his bigotry against me and others with comments like this. It's outrageous and has no basis in reality.

This kind of character assassination towards anyone who doesn't agree with him about Israel, Zionism, etc. has no place in civil discourse, and his portrayal of Zionism is antisemitic in and of itself.

"Zionist" no longer just refers to someone who supports the creation and existence of a Jewish homeland. Rather, Zionism has become a term of abuse, the word Zionism/Zionist is now used to denote something deeply sinister. A Zionist is now imagined as an evil shadowy figure, eating babies while playing puppetmaster of world politics instead of simply a person who supports Israels creation and right to exist.

Anti-Semites in the nineteenth and twentieth centuries used the term ‘the Jew’ and it came to symbolise something more than simply a Jewish person, now they have turned to the term "Zionist" but it basically has the same meaning.

Now, if you simply mean it as a person who supports Israels right to exist then you aren't using it like a slur. If you are meaning it in the same vein as Europeans used to refer to "The Jew" then you are. Saxitoxin seems to believe all Zionists think alike and are evil so we can tell which way he's leaning . In fact, he clarified exactly what he meant...

You believe Israeli Jews, Zionists, and Jews in other countries who support Israel, are the worst people in the world. You believe these people should have their property confiscated based on "support to Zionist organizations." You believe the primary cause of problems in the Middle East and perhaps the world, is Zionism. You believe Zionism is an extreme religious movement and dismiss any connection to a secular culture or consideration of refuge populations. You believe Israelis and Zionists consider the rest of humanity their slaves and treat them as such.

You believe Palestinians share no fault for the conflict between them and Israel. In addition to confiscation of "Zionist property" (please advise if you object to the term), Israel and other responsible countries must compensate the Palestinians who will then be satisfied and will not use the money to take up arms against Jews. Israel must integrate with the populations of Gaza and the West Bank and open immigration to Arabs and Muslims. Israel must do this without "using negotiation as a stalling tactic" lest they be "drowned in the peace well."

Various proclamations you sited adequately guarantee the security of the Jewish population of Israel in accepting the Arab terms. Israel must unilaterally disarm and must not delay in accepting these terms.

correct

[saxitoxin]

Do you support these protests which evolve into antisemitic riots

It is a shame one event in Paris involved very limited instances of anti-Semitic outbursts, however, it is ultimately Israel's fault that occurred. When a people are subject to irrational, racist violence, it is to be expected that - eventually - some segment of those people will respond with irrational, racist violence. You should take responsibility for this culture of distrust instead of simply relying on Bible prophecy and scripture to green card any act by Israel.

Re: the photos of pro-Palestine protests around the world, the one in Times Square this past weekend filled two city blocks while the pro-Israel protest going on at the same time had a grand total of 15 attendees. In New York City of all places in the world, there were more Jews in the pro-Palestine rally than the pro-Israel rally...

That's a great note, I wish I was in New York to have attended it, the one I went to had a great turnout but the energy of the one in NY must have been incredible. Please post pics if you have any.

From reading reports of the pithy pro-Israel rally it appears it was just a tiny hate-fest. I saw that Congressman Elliot Engel (the Ranking Member of the House Foreign Affairs Committee!) appeared on-stage at the pro-Israel event with Pamela Geller. (For the uninitiated, Pamela Geller runs an outfit that is a SPLC-designated hate group.)

This really underscores the fact that, when you're dealing with Israel backers, you're dealing with society's lowest common denominators, regardless of their political bend. This isn't Left-vs-Right, this is Sane-vs-Insane.

[GabonX]

Do you support these protests which evolve into antisemitic riots

It is a shame one event in Paris involved very limited instances of anti-Semitic outbursts, however, it is ultimately Israel's fault that occurred. When a people are subject to irrational, racist violence, it is to be expected that - eventually - some segment of those people will respond with irrational, racist violence.

Multiple instances in Paris, not limited just to Paris, and all involving people completely separate from what's going on in Gaza...

I understand you may attempt to counter that reality with references to Bible verses and scripture, but doing so would seem to just perpetuate a cycle of intolerance.

Show me a single example where I've used the bible to justify anything here. It's never happened, it's not part of my world view, and your repeated insistence that it's the case highlights your cheap attempts at character assassination, your bigotry, and your ignorance.

[Metsfanmax]

This really underscores the fact that, when you're dealing with Israel backers, you're dealing with society's lowest common denominators, regardless of their political bend. This isn't Left-vs-Right, this is Sane-vs-Insane.

Ooh, this time we have hit upon selection bias! Of course the ones you hear about are the ones with the most extreme views -- they're the ones who are most likely to be vocal about their views. "Israel is a conflicted but generally decent nation" is hardly a stirring rallying cry.

[saxitoxin]

"Israel is a conflicted but generally decent nation" is hardly a stirring rallying cry.

and hardly true, either

The comparisons to my own place of birth in the North of Ireland are obvious. Conflict here eventually ended after 30 years. when the two sides got to together and talked. The fact Israel even refuses to talk to Hamas means this conflict will drag on for a very long time.

I was impressed the Irish parliament observed an historic moment of silence for the besieged people of Gaza. I agree with your comparison between Gaza and the six occupied counties.

[mrswdk]

Northern Ireland twice voted to remain in the UK, so it can hardly be called 'occupied'.

[Metsfanmax]

Kahneman's book is great! But don't take the Prospect Theory too seriously. It's the most flawed part of the book because it really glosses over the weak evidence of the theory, but the theory does provide some handy ways of describing some phenomena (e.g. status quo bias, preference reversal, etc.).

The experiments which 'confirm' the various parts of that theory generally rely on minor trade-offs--e.g. people playing with a $5 mug as oppose to 100 $5 mugs. The low sample size and having only lab settings offer weak support too.

I started thinking immediately after reading it that the problem with his general argument is that the argument itself is susceptible to the same types of fallacies he is pointing out. That is, he is painting a coherent story, but if it's based on evidence that is weak at best (and often in the text the statistical details of the study are ignored, and when they are, the sample sizes, etc. aren't particularly impressive -- though I do not really hold this against him, sample sizes in the social sciences are probably never what you want them to be) then I may be giving the story too much credit. That being said, I'm also willing to give it slightly more credit because he's a distinguished researcher and because he starts off almost immediately by talking about how he thinks about statistical validity much more seriously than other researchers (which presumably means he gets it right more often?). Also, many of the ideas in there are worth knowing about even if the evidence is wrong. That is, even if humans generally aren't subject to availability bias too much (say), it's still important to know about that as a potential source of error when I'm thinking about my own argumentation.

[TA1LGUNN3R]

There is no doubt in my mind that the actions of Israel are beyond reproach.

That would actually mean you agree with their actions. To be beyond reproach is to be without criticism.

-TG

[saxitoxin]

Wow, Lenny Lapon, a high school teacher at the Roxbury Latin School, has written an eloquent explanation to accompany his formal renunciation of his citizenship in Mordor.

It is with a newfound clarity of thinking and analyzing a very emotional tragedy that I have thrown off the shackles of Zionist propaganda and am proudly and publicly renouncing my Israeli citizenship effective immediately. At the same time I denounce the ongoing colonial oppression of the Palestinian people, a terrible injustice that is greatly facilitated by US tax dollars supporting the vast Israeli military machine. I also encourage other Jews to educate themselves and to stand on the side of the oppressed.

Mabrouk, Lenny Lapon! More and more people who formerly supported the entity are being motivated by the horrors of the pogrom to reject it.

Meanwhile, Nobel Peace laureates Mairead Maguire (1976 - Ireland) and Adolfo Pérez Esquivel (1980 - Argentina) have signed an open letter with Noam Chomsky, Roger Waters of Pink Floyd, and French resistance hero Stéphane Hessel, calling for a mandatory global embargo against the illegal and prohibited state.

Horrified at the latest round of Israeli aggression against the 1.5 million Palestinians in the besieged and occupied Gaza Strip and conscious of the impunity that has enabled this new chapter in Israel's decades-old violations of international law and Palestinian rights, we believe there is an urgent need for international action towards a mandatory, comprehensive military embargo against Israel.

[Metsfanmax]

Wow, Lenny Lapon, a high school teacher at the Roxbury Latin School, has written an eloquent explanation to accompany his formal renunciation of his citizenship in Mordor.

It is with a newfound clarity of thinking and analyzing a very emotional tragedy that I have thrown off the shackles of Zionist propaganda and am proudly and publicly renouncing my Israeli citizenship effective immediately. At the same time I denounce the ongoing colonial oppression of the Palestinian people, a terrible injustice that is greatly facilitated by US tax dollars supporting the vast Israeli military machine. I also encourage other Jews to educate themselves and to stand on the side of the oppressed.

Mabrouk, Lenny Lapon! More and more people who formerly supported the entity are being motivated by the horrors of the pogrom to reject it.

So this guy is publicly renouncing the Israeli citizenship he arduously obtained through the trying process of his plane landing in Israel? Wow, what a courageous act.

[nietzsche]

I see people who care about the issue at hand and people who care about winning an argument and honing their debating skills.