The USA Left led Military ,worst Defeat/blunder in 200 years

[jusplay4fun]

----Lee shouldn't of let himself get caught up in Gettysburg...Yes,that was his mistake...He let events carry his thinking,maybe because he was North of the mason Dixon line and tried to prove himself to the North?..But he almost pulled it off ,if not for Custer,is what I am saying and History....
-----------As for a British observer ...I don't care what a Brit has to say....There was another War,Lee was involved in...THE MEXICAN AMERICAN WAR....There was another smart ass Brit...The Duke of Wellington...Laughed at American commanders for trying to invade..Veracruz and march to Mexico City....Guess what..Duke..it work...Where outside the city,a young Lt.Lee would lead a small force by the lava things outside the city..And captured Mex,Gen.Apua's Army ,as Santa Anna,refused to help Apua...
-------------As To Lee you are right he was winning all his battles up until then...He was playing a "GO" style strategy like Giap in Vietnam.....As people in the North were getting sick of all the defeats and loses...much like Vietnam...causulties....Lee at Gettysburg...turn to a "Chess" style strategy ,which Gen. Wes Moreland was using against Giap in Vietnam...You see how well that worked out for Lee at Gettsburg and Moreland in Vietnam...THAT WAS LEE'S MISTAKE ,CHANGING HIS STRATEGY THINKING,ONCE AGAIN,i THINK IT WAS BECAUSE ,HE WASN'T FIGHTING ON SOUTHERN SOIL AND HAD TO PROVE SOMETHING... ... ConfederateSS,out!(The Blue and Silver Rebellion)...

His mistake and NOT a BLUNDER??

WoW, LOOK at ALL the RED squiggle lines showing grammatical and spelling errors by ConfSS. Do you ever look to proofread and fix the errors, ConfSS?

Let us set the record straight:

William Childs Westmoreland (March 26, 1914 – July 18, 2005) was a United States Army general, most notably commander of United States forces during the Vietnam War from 1964 to 1968. He served as Chief of Staff of the United States Army from 1968 to 1972.

Wes is NOT his first name.

Further, your analysis is rather cursory. Did you read what I posted? Some of that are polar opposite views of your suppositions.

[jusplay4fun]

Are you familiar with Douglas S. Freeman?

Here is what he said about Lee and Gettysburg:

No trace of resentment was there in his dealings with the men who had failed him. He greeted Longstreet cordially as "my old war horse."​34 In fact, for months thereafter Lee showed more than usual warmth to Longstreet, as if to make it plain that he did not blame him and did not countenance any whispering against Longstreet that might cause dissension in the army.​35 When Captain Ross, the Austrian observer, came to call, Lee talked of Gettysburg as if all the fault had been his own. He told Ross that if he had been aware that Meade had been able to concentrate his whole army, he would not have attacked him, but that the success of the first day, the belief that Meade had only a part of his p140 army on the field, and the enthusiasm of his own troops had led him to conclude that the possible results of a victory justified the risks. He added that his lack of accurate knowledge of the enemy's concentration was due to the absence of Stuart's cavalry.​36 In writing to the President, he was full of fight and urged once more that Indicates a West Point graduate and gives his Class. Beauregard's army be brought to the upper Rappahannock for a demonstration on Washington.​37 "I hope," he said, "Your Excellency will understand that I am not in the least discouraged, or that my faith in the protection of an all-wise Providence, or in the fortitude of this army, is at all shaken. But, though conscious that the enemy has been much shattered in the recent battle, I am aware that he can be easily reinforced, while no addition can be made to our numbers. The measure, therefore, that I have recommended is altogether one of a prudential nature."38

https://penelope.uchicago.edu/Thayer/E/Gazetteer/People/Robert_E_Lee/FREREL/3/9*.html

This webpage reproduces a chapter of
R. E. Lee: A Biography
by Douglas Southall Freeman
published by Charles Scribner's Sons,
New York and London, 1934

[HitRed]

I am aware that he can be easily reinforced, while no addition can be made to our numbers. - Lee

Telling line.

Wonder if Lee thought this before the Campaign.

[jusplay4fun]

I am aware that he can be easily reinforced, while no addition can be made to our numbers. - Lee

Telling line.

Wonder if Lee thought this before the Campaign.

Yes, I included THAT portion purposefully. Good Pick up, HR.

[jusplay4fun]

More information from Douglas Southall Freeman about Robert E. Lee:

Freeman, Douglas Southall (1886–1953)
SUMMARY
Douglas Southall Freeman was a biographer, a newspaper editor, a nationally renowned military analyst, and a pioneering radio broadcaster. He won the Pulitzer Prize twice: the first, in 1935, for his four-volume biography of the Confederate general Robert E. Lee; and the second, posthumously in 1958, for his six-volume biography of George Washington, with a seventh volume written by John Alexander Carroll and Mary Wells Ashworth after Freeman’s death in 1953. The son of a Confederate veteran, Freeman is best known as a historian of the American Civil War (1861–1865) and, in particular, of the high command of the Confederate Army of Northern Virginia. His description of Lee, Thomas J. “Stonewall” Jackson, and their compatriots as “men of principles unimpeachable, of valour indescribable” for some has suggested that his work was influenced by the Lost Cause view of the war that was in part founded by his former neighbor, Jubal A. Early. In reality, Freeman’s admiration for the Confederates never influenced his historical conclusions.

https://encyclopediavirginia.org/entries/freeman-douglas-southall-1886-1953/

Chapters of the Book about General Robert E. Lee by Douglas S. Freeman:
7
"What Can Detain Longstreet?"

The Battle of Gettysburg, Day 2: 2 July 1863. Lee fails to prevent the engagement from starting very late, allowing the Union forces to concentrate. Uncoördinated Confederate attacks are pushed back.

8
"it Is All My Fault"

The Battle of Gettysburg, Day 3: 3 July 1863. Pickett's charge seals the Confederate defeat.

9
Why Was Gettysburg Lost?

The Confederate army retreats to Virginia. Freeman's analysis of Lee's part in the defeat at Gettysburg.

Was Lee a great general? YES. Did Lee makes mistakes? He is human.

[ConfederateSS]

-------I know it's Westmoreland.... I've been told my typing is a little sloppy... .... ConfederateSS.out!(The Blue and Silver Rebellion)...

[DirtyDishSoap]

-------I know it's Westmoreland.... I've been told my typing is a little sloppy... .... ConfederateSS.out!(The Blue and Silver Rebellion)...

A little is probably the understatement of the year.

[jusplay4fun]

-------I know it's Westmoreland.... I've been told my typing is a little sloppy... .... ConfederateSS.out!(The Blue and Silver Rebellion)...

I would have let it slide, except that you made the same error twice in the same post, so it looked as if you did not know how to spell his name.

As I ready suggested, take time to at least READ your post before you submit, ConfSS. That is how I catch many of my mistakes.

And did you read my posts and quotes by Lee's biographer, Douglas S. Freeman? Don't let that slide off your plate, ConfSS. Too MUCH good stuff there to chew on.

[jusplay4fun]

It appears that ConfSS is still reading my posts on this topic.

[jusplay4fun]

There is apparently an entire genre (or SET) of stories about a Southern victory in the US Civil War. I was aware of a few stories, but the list is rather long, much longer than I knew.

Perhaps ConfSS has read some of these stories.

American Civil War alternate histories
From Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

American Civil War alternate histories are alternate history fiction that focuses on the Civil War ending differently or not occurring. The American Civil War is a popular point of divergence in English-language alternate history fiction. The most common variants detail the victory and survival of the Confederate States. Less common variants include a Union victory under different circumstances from actual history, resulting in a different postwar situation; black American slaves freeing themselves by revolt without waiting for Lincoln's Emancipation Proclamation; a direct British and/or French intervention in the war; the survival of Lincoln during John Wilkes Booth's assassination attempt; a retelling of historical events with fantasy elements inserted; the Civil War never breaking out and a peaceful compromise being reached; and secret history tales. The point of divergence in such a story can be a "natural, realistic" event, such as one general making a different decision, or one sentry detecting an enemy invasion unlike in reality. It can also be an "unnatural" fantasy/science fiction plot device such as time travel, which usually takes the form of someone bringing modern weapons or hindsight knowledge into the past. Still another related variant is a scenario of a Civil War that breaks out at a different time from 1861 and under different circumstances (such as the North, rather than the South, seceding from the Union).

American Civil War alternate histories are one of the two most popular points of divergence to create an alternate history in the English language, the other being an Axis victory in World War II.[1][2][3]

Depictions of the later development of a victorious Confederacy vary considerably from one another, especially on two major interrelated issues: the independent Confederacy's treatment of its black population and its relations with the rump United States in the North.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/American_Civil_War_alternate_histories

See also:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_alternate_histories_diverging_at_the_American_Civil_War

[ConfederateSS]

It appears that ConfSS is still reading my posts on this topic.

--------Of course....only a Left Liberal would ignore any public speaker...
----------------I wasn't saying the SOUTH was going to win ...I said,as historical facts state...Had it not been for Custer...Lee's plan,as out of the box it was...Would have worked on day 3 at Gettysburg....NO!!...as Rhett Butler(Clark Gable),in ,"Gone With The Wind" would try and tell,a bunch of Southern Hot shots.in the study scene...As he is trying to shed light on what will happen....[size=200]"THERE IS NOT ONE CANNON FACTORY IN THE SOUTH"....That pretty much sums up THE SOUTH's chances...But,as a Southerner,even he goes and fights at Gettysburg,for duty an HONOR...even though he knows the outcome...Up until then...he,as some Southerns fought,for one more reason...money,profit,themselves...[/size]... ConfederateSS.out!(The Blue and Silver Rebellion)...

[HitRed]

For history buffs. Interesting read.

Wikipedia

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Turning_p ... (July_1863)

[riskllama]

[jusplay4fun]

For history buffs. Interesting read.

Wikipedia

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Turning_p ... (July_1863)

While the Battle of Gettysburg in July 1863 is the event most widely cited as the military climax of the American Civil War (often in combination with the siege of Vicksburg, which concluded a day later), there were several other decisive battles and events throughout the war which have been proposed as turning points. These events are presented here in chronological order.

I agree, HR; very interesting. Thanks for sharing.

Based on most of what I have read, the Turning Point of that war was July 3 & 4 in 1863: Battle of Gettysburg and the siege of Vicksburg. I think the quotes below validate my opinion. They are from HR's cited source.

On July 4, 1863, the most important Confederate stronghold on the Mississippi River at Vicksburg, Mississippi, surrendered to General Ulysses S. Grant. The previous day, Maj. Gen. George Meade had decisively defeated Robert E. Lee at Gettysburg, Pennsylvania. These nearly simultaneous battles are the events most often cited as the ultimate turning points of the entire war.[9]

The loss of Vicksburg split the Confederacy in two, denying it any further movement along or across the Mississippi River and preventing supplies from Texas and Arkansas that might sustain the war effort from passing east. As President Lincoln had stated, "See what a lot of land these fellows hold, of which Vicksburg is the key! The war can never be brought to a close until that key is in our pocket.... We can take all the northern ports of the Confederacy and they can defy us from Vicksburg."

Gettysburg was the first major defeat suffered by Lee. The three-day battle witnessed the Union Army of the Potomac decisively repel his second invasion of the North and inflicted serious casualties on his Army of Northern Virginia. In fact, the National Park Service marks the point at which Pickett's Charge collapsed, a copse of trees on Cemetery Ridge, as the high-water mark of the Confederacy. From this point onward, Lee attempted no more strategic offensives. Although two more years of fighting and a new, more aggressive general-in-chief (Grant) were required to fully subdue the rebellion, the eventual end at Appomattox Court House in 1865 seems inevitable in hindsight.

While Gettysburg was seen by military and civilian observers at the time as a great battle, those in the North had little idea that two more bloody years would be required to finish the war. Lincoln was distraught at Meade's failure to intercept Lee's retreat, believing that to have done so would have ended the conflict.[10] Southern morale was seriously affected by the twin setbacks of Gettysburg and Vicksburg, as they perceived that "the coil was tightening around us".[11]

Some economic historians have pointed to the fact that after the defeats at Gettysburg and Vicksburg, the market for Confederate war bonds dropped precipitously. "… European investors gave the Confederacy approximately a 42 percent chance of victory prior to the battle of Gettysburg/Vicksburg. News of the severity of the two rebel defeats led to a sell-off in Confederate bonds. By the end of 1863, the probability of a Southern victory fell to about 15 percent."[12]

[jusplay4fun]

This is happening tomorrow where I live, in Richmond, VA:

Virginia is set to remove Richmond's Lee statue on Wednesday
Gov. Ralph Northam announced plans to take down the statue in June 2020.

By ASSOCIATED PRESS

09/07/2021 12:48 PM EDT

A towering statue of Confederate Gen. Robert E. Lee in Richmond, Virginia, is expected to be taken down on Wednesday as a symbol of racial injustice, more than 130 years after it was erected in tribute to the South’s Civil War leader.

While many other Confederate symbols across the South have been removed without public announcements beforehand to avoid unruly crowds, Gov. Ralph Northam's office is expecting a multitude and plans to livestream the event on social media.


The plans to remove the statue of Robert E. Lee in Richmond, Va., were stalled for more than a year.

By ASSOCIATED PRESS

09/07/2021 12:48 PM EDT

A towering statue of Confederate Gen. Robert E. Lee in Richmond, Virginia, is expected to be taken down on Wednesday as a symbol of racial injustice, more than 130 years after it was erected in tribute to the South’s Civil War leader.

While many other Confederate symbols across the South have been removed without public announcements beforehand to avoid unruly crowds, Gov. Ralph Northam's office is expecting a multitude and plans to livestream the event on social media.

Gov. Ralph Northam announced plans to take down the statue in June 2020, 10 days after George Floyd died under the knee of a Minneapolis police officer, sparking nationwide protests against police brutality and racism. The plans were stalled for more than a year by two lawsuits filed by residents opposed to its removal, but rulings last week by the Supreme Court of Virginia cleared the way for the statue to be taken down.

The imposing, 21-foot tall bronze likeness of Lee on a horse sits atop a granite pedestal nearly twice that high in the grassy center of a traffic circle on Richmond’s famed Monument Avenue

As one of the largest and most recognizable Confederate statues in the country, the removal of the Lee statute is expected to draw large crowds.

[HitRed]

Likely remove it at 3am

[jusplay4fun]

same source:

Limited viewing opportunities will be available on a first‐come, first‐serve basis, state officials said in Monday's news release. The removal will also be livestreamed through the governor's Facebook and Twitter accounts, both of which have the handle of @governorVA.

The Lee statue was created by the internationally renowned French sculptor Marius-Jean-Antonin Mercie and is considered a “masterpiece,” according to its nomination to the National Register of Historic Places, where it has been listed since 2007.

[jusplay4fun]

Likely remove it at 3am

Richmond prepares for removal of Robert E. Lee statue beginning Wednesday morning

State and law enforcement officials began blocking off roads around the statue after 6 p.m. in preparation for the statue’s removal Wednesday morning, which will begin around 8 a.m. The process could take several hours and can be viewed via live stream on several state websites, including on Northam’s Facebook page and at his Twitter feed, @GovernorVA.

https://www.washingtonpost.com/local/virginia-politics/richmond-prepares-for-removal-of-robert-e-lee-statue-beginning-wednesday-morning/2021/09/07/ebdc1b12-1020-11ec-882f-2dd15a067dc4_story.html

[ConfederateSS]

-------Did you guys read...my Thread The Attack on History Must Stop....In this Off Topics...page 5 half way down....
------------But,on monument mile...Not the Gov...But The Mayor,during COVID-19 emergency protocols...Took down the Confederate Statues...But there is one more of interest...Rumors of War by Wiley,who did Obama's Pres.portrait...on the mile,like I said ,if people want other stories told ,put up a statue....His statue is modeled after J.e.B. Staurt's,who's was modeled after a British officer from the revolution....It has a young African American,with dreadlocks,wearing a hoodie,and NIKE shoes....You know ,the Company that has enslaved the South Pacific for the past 6 decades....Kapernick.Tiger Woods,Labron James take millions ,as other sports athletes..from NIKE...Who yell at America...USA ....
---------In The Summer of 2020 ,180ish Confederate Statues,were torn down...not taken down by gov.officals...Over the past year 72 have been remade and put back up across The South...paid for with tax dollars of those cities....As reported by Daughters ,Sons of Veterans of The Confederacy,as other such organizations...Southern Legion,etc...Not CNN,come on Anderson,others,come on,where's the story of statues going up...The War Between The States/History goes on...... ConfederateSS.out!(The Blue and Silver Rebellion)...
------------As for Hit Red,great article....If you guys read my Thread on the attack on History....Sidney...He died,because he sent his own doctors to take care of Union prisoners...But you know, Confederates are thought of as horrible people... ...When Yankees ,Confederates were,oh,I don't know...ALL AMERICANS....YES, AMERICANS...PERIOD!!!
------------About Vicksburg,The Star and Stripes was not flown again at city hall...because of the hell they went through....Not until July 4th,1942...As the country was coming together to fight the Japanese after the sneak attack on Pearl Harbor...Just some little known facts...
-------One more thing about Confederate Statues...Here in Michigan,yes Michigan...Places like The surrounding areas in the Western part of the State,near Kalamazoo,and in the Central Part of the State near Mt. Pleasant...there are Confederate Statues,and streets named after Confederates...In a couple of towns/cities they voted on them....The votes were 9-0....To keep things the way they are....

[jusplay4fun]

Yesterday at 3:04 p.m. EDT

RICHMOND — Workers have removed Virginia’s biggest statue of Confederate Gen. Robert E. Lee from its towering stone base and cut it into two pieces, ending the monument’s 131-year reign embodying this city’s mythology as the former capital of the Confederacy.

https://www.washingtonpost.com/local/virginia-politics/robert-e-lee-statue-removal/2021/09/08/1d9564ee-103d-11ec-9cb6-bf9351a25799_story.html

[jusplay4fun]

So the statue of Robert E. Lee in Richmond, VA is down and gone from public display.

What was accomplished? other than SYMBOLISM? other than a few people feel good for a few hours, minutes, or days?

In terms of concrete and measurable change, what was done as a result?

[bigtoughralf]

Symbolism is important. It might not directly solve any problems but it sets an expectation of how society will be run and how people ought to conduct themselves within it.

I don't really know much about these American generals but it sounds like having a statue of this Lee guy is the sort of thing that would inspire a lot of people towards regional separatism and isolationism, a bit like erecting a statue to Gerry Adams or William Wallace. So you can see why it's good to remove it.

[Dukasaur]

So the statue of Robert E. Lee in Richmond, VA is down and gone from public display.

What was accomplished? other than SYMBOLISM? other than a few people feel good for a few hours, minutes, or days?

In terms of concrete and measurable change, what was done as a result?

Symbolism matters. I can't say for how long people will feel good, but at least they will stop feeling bad for essentially a lifetime.

Most of these symbols of Confederate power -- the Confederate flags, Confederate statues, and other symbols -- were erected during the resurgence of the KKK and the big wave of white protestant nationalism that swept the 'South' between 1915 and 1925. They are not coincidences, and they are not, as some would pretend, benign markers commemorating historical moments. They were assertions of white protestant power, in-you-face announcements saying "we won after all." As the last bits of Reconstruction were forgotten and unrepentant white supremacists swept to power in statehouse after statehouse, restoring racial segregation and finding novel ways to disenfranchise non-whites, they put their flags and statues in front of these statehouses to boldly announce their belated triumph. They were put there to intimidate non-whites and remind them who really rules the south.

Imagine if you were a non-white working at a city hall or statehouse somewhere in the south. Every day on your way to work you have to walk past a statue of Lee or Jackson or Forrest or Davis, reminding you that though you may not be a slave, you're still a second-class citizen. I think you'd feel pretty shitty about it. Removing that statue won't solve all your problems, but it will at least finally stop that oppressive feeling.

[ConfederateSS]

So the statue of Robert E. Lee in Richmond, VA is down and gone from public display.

What was accomplished? other than SYMBOLISM? other than a few people feel good for a few hours, minutes, or days?

In terms of concrete and measurable change, what was done as a result?

--------?No,sorry Duk,you are wrong on when and why most were put up....After The War Between The States....Alot were put up during Reconstruction......Not about white or black....It was about...North and South...Yankees and Johnny Rebs....The KKK high jacked the battle flag,and Strom Thurmond...Made the Dixiecrats,wing of the Den. Party in the 1940's......But back to many of the Statues put up before 1920....The U.S. Government paid for those statues,along with military bases For Confederates....To try and wash away ,the Hurt Feelings Southerners had for the war...Granny on the Beverly Hillbillies,would be an example..
-------The Flags were made during the war,there are over 150 Confederate Flags,each state still is represented...You see most of them like South Carolina,palm tree,moon were the South Carolina reg.flag..with the exception being Texas,The Confederate Stars and Bars came from the Texas Design....Flags made during the War......As for slavery,it is a pill of crap,to say,It offends me...We were all slaves at some point in history...Aside from that.....African Americans have no problem when the shoe is on the other foot....Take the Statue Rumors of War,like
I have stayed before...Has a young African American wearing NIKI shoes...A company that has enslaved the South Pacific for decades....But that doesn't stop African American from wearing Nike...Or endorsing NIKi....Then there is China,who has enslaved people for 5,000 years....Still ongoing...Not a big deal As Everyone does deals with China...
-------Now,I don't think Wiley's statue should come down either,everyone should put up a statue if they like,Put them up,not take them down.......As,Justplay4fun...said.....A few years ago,the Battle Flag in front of The South Carolina capital building came down...Did that stop African Americans from killing each other in all major U.S. cities....But perhaps if people learn of the Character of men such as LEE and STONEWALL,and Sidney Johnston...People learn how to respect History as others...That might be a better solution....Build up,not erase and tear down....No matter what things are done...The SOUTH will always be the SOUTH...It will be there as time goes by,because,hide it,erase it,you can try...,But you can't erase the past....What you could do however..is wear it as a badge of Honor,in stead of shame,offense,act like it never happened...Because the past ,it what has gotten all of us,to where we are today....That is why the presavation of HISTORY is important....
------------Yes,Duk,there are hood wearing assholes on every side...Not to mention the battle of classes... Religions...You could ,take any piece of HISTORY...and find something wrong with it,if that is all you are looking for or at...But like it or not...The Good and The bad...got us to 2021 or 5000 and something if you are Chinese...A Great Wall,Statues of Warriors... History,that if in America,would be bull dozed away... ConfederateSS.out!(The Blue and Silver Rebellion)...



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