Israel Plans to Restore Death Penalty for Everyone but Jews

[saxitoxin]

Just because the PLO declared itself a state( of which most of the land it claims is occupied by Israel )doesn't make it a state. Just because the UN recognizes it doesn't make it a state. The UN is basically a body which is always quick to condemn Israel but never says shit about the mass bloodletting and dictatorships in the rest of the region.

Are you fucking kidding me.

The UN is the only reason Israel exists.

You are woefully ignorant of history.

Actually, he's perfectly correct.

Let's talk some Realpolitik, not your CNN fairy tales.

Palestine was promised to the Jews in 1916, before the British had even captured it.

You could have saved yourself the rant and just stopped here.

Palestine wasn't the Britishes to promise. The End.

OK, let us say that the Palestinians are in the right...who they going to get to enforce it?

According to the last month of news reports, the Izz ad-Din al-Qassam Brigades (Hamas). At various points in the past these have been joined by the al-Aqsa Martyrs' Brigades (Fatah), the Organization of the Oppressed on Earth (Hezbollah), the Syrian Arab Army, the Arab Legion, etc.

Blaming the people who are defending themselves ...

No one is blaming the Palestinians except Tel Aviv and a handful of Evangelical holy rollers in North America like universalchiro, Ted Cruz, GabonX, and you.

[Dukasaur]

Just because the PLO declared itself a state( of which most of the land it claims is occupied by Israel )doesn't make it a state. Just because the UN recognizes it doesn't make it a state. The UN is basically a body which is always quick to condemn Israel but never says shit about the mass bloodletting and dictatorships in the rest of the region.

Are you fucking kidding me.

The UN is the only reason Israel exists.

You are woefully ignorant of history.

Actually, he's perfectly correct.

Let's talk some Realpolitik, not your CNN fairy tales.

Palestine was promised to the Jews in 1916, before the British had even captured it.

You could have saved yourself the rant and just stopped here.

Palestine wasn't the Britishes to promise. The End.

They took it from the Ottoman. You didn't. Sorry 'bout your luck.

[saxitoxin]

Just because the PLO declared itself a state( of which most of the land it claims is occupied by Israel )doesn't make it a state. Just because the UN recognizes it doesn't make it a state. The UN is basically a body which is always quick to condemn Israel but never says shit about the mass bloodletting and dictatorships in the rest of the region.

Are you fucking kidding me.

The UN is the only reason Israel exists.

You are woefully ignorant of history.

Actually, he's perfectly correct.

Let's talk some Realpolitik, not your CNN fairy tales.

Palestine was promised to the Jews in 1916, before the British had even captured it.

You could have saved yourself the rant and just stopped here.

Palestine wasn't the Britishes to promise. The End.

They took it from the Ottoman.

Great. So if military acumen is the standard of law, you have no objection to someone attempting to take it back then. boom-boom-boom

There, thread solved.

[Dukasaur]

Just because the PLO declared itself a state( of which most of the land it claims is occupied by Israel )doesn't make it a state. Just because the UN recognizes it doesn't make it a state. The UN is basically a body which is always quick to condemn Israel but never says shit about the mass bloodletting and dictatorships in the rest of the region.

Are you fucking kidding me.

The UN is the only reason Israel exists.

You are woefully ignorant of history.

Actually, he's perfectly correct.

Let's talk some Realpolitik, not your CNN fairy tales.

Palestine was promised to the Jews in 1916, before the British had even captured it.

You could have saved yourself the rant and just stopped here.

Palestine wasn't the Britishes to promise. The End.

They took it from the Ottoman.

Great. So if military acumen is the standard of law, you have no objection to someone attempting to take it back then. boom-boom-boom

There, thread solved.

I believe when someone loses a fight, they should shake hands, walk away, and everybody gets to carry on with their life.

People who pick a fight, lose, and then demand a rematch over and over again, aren't doing themselves any favours. If in 1948 the Arabs had accepted the loss and made a good-faith effort to live alongside the Jews, instead of fighting a 65-year guerrila war, they might have a nice-looking country by now.

[Metsfanmax]

People who pick a fight, lose, and then demand a rematch over and over again, aren't doing themselves any favours. If in 1948 the Arabs had accepted the loss and made a good-faith effort to live alongside the Jews, instead of fighting a 65-year guerrila war, they might have a nice-looking country by now.

So when the Europeans arrived in North America, and the natives realized that they couldn't win a war against people equipped with vastly superior technology, should they just have moved to Greenland?

[saxitoxin]

I believe when someone loses a fight

I don't know what kind-of fights you're getting in where - after you land a punch you scream "Fight's over! Don't hit me! Please don't hit me!" - and the other guy smiles and walks away, but I'm guessing none.*

* IRL you can't just perma-ban your opponent

[BigBallinStalin]

At least we can stop pretending that BBS has a balanced view of events. It looks like he's taken the false narratives on Israel hook, line, and sinker.

While "Wow, just wow" is usually followed by highbrow and original thought, he's followed it up with the usual anti Israel arguments that are impossible to verify. Ignore that the Arabs openly call for genocide and have for decades, and the fact that the things he posted are based more on accusation than veritable facts. Israel is bad because the Arabs are bad, because there always has to be some middle ground that turns common sense on it's head.

We all know the narrative that Israel never tried to make peace with the Palestinians, always stealing land and what not. It's not like the exact opposite could be true...

And of course we know that Israel likes to gun down their neighbors whenever they get the chance, and US ships too for shits and giggles. The Arabs are totally righteous in their defensive actions against Israel, the land stealing aggressor, as exemplified by the high standards of living and social justice in every Arab nation. Israel is the odd man out, the sick one, the cancer, and they have no legitimate concerns in regards to the defense of their people...

Also, if a separate vaguely affiliated group of Christian Arabs happens to massacre Muslims in Lebanon, blame the Jews for that too. They're all genocidal land thieves and you can't trust them or the people who think they deserve to live in peace.

Saxi is correct in pointing out this general pattern of yours. Unsurprisingly, you've failed to substantially address my claims, and the few of which you've remotely addressed you've merely provided dull strawman fallacies. Next time, think critically and try to tackle the more substantial arguments. Nevertheless, I've already asked you to relax and think critically in your previous outlash against me, so now I won't rationally expect you to educate yourself nor think critically anymore. I can safely conclude that you're not worth my time.


If anyone's interested in reading about my claims:

McCoy, Alfred. Question of Torture (see: Israel, torture program. This book is largely about the CIA's torture program, but it provides a nice biblio of Israel's torture program).

Bamford, James. Body of Secrets. (see: USS Liberty; and IIRC El Aden, Egypt, POWs)

The bombing 6 times as many civilians as soldiers was already well documented ITT.

Thomas, Gordon. Gideon's Spies. (see: anything of interest about Mossad, Israel's intelligence service--including the intel story about Israel attacking Egypt. I didn't find it convincing, but y'all might).

Check out the wiki link for that other massacre. It's common knowledge, and with the UN holding key Israel politicians responsible, it seems pretty obvious that Israel was complicit.

[BigBallinStalin]

Honestly, when it comes to coercion and violence, any state can do it--regardless of its democratic status. Autocratic states are less constrained than democratic ones in threatening to use violence against their own citizens--but all states still collect their taxes at essentially the point of a gun. The flag-waving, 'social' democracy point isn't impressive.

Of course, all government is inherently exploitative and evil. That goes without saying. Unfortunately, it's one of those things that you can't abolish until everyone else does. If your neighbour has a bull mastiff, you have to get a bull mastiff, or you will be defenseless when your neighbour neighbour gets drunk and decides to sic his mastiff on you. Ditto with governments. As long as your neighbours have a government, you have to have one. So, as long as we're stuck with this evil institution, we may as well seek to moderate the damage done. That's what social democracy does. It's "harm reduction" in the modern parlance. It doesn't eliminate the evils of government, but it certainly mitigates their magnitude.

After 65 years of it, you really have to ask who's defending and who's being the aggressor. Who has repeatedly refused to credibly commit to a peace treaty? Shall we point to the party which continues its settlement program after agreeing that it would stop? You do realize that you're talking about a country which has directly tortured a majority of 1000s of innocent people while subjugating and dominating millions, right?

Those are easy questions to answer. The Arabs have kept this war going for 65 years. They should have accepted their loss in 1948 in the spirit of fair play. They were offered half of Palestine, they refused the offer and demanded double or nothing, they rolled the dice and lost. After that they should have either settled down and become loyal citizens, or packed up their shit and moved on with their lives elsewhere. That war would be a distant memory by now. Instead of either of those options, they chose to move just across the border, turn their entire population into a paramilitary organisation, and plot revenge. That, and nothing else, has turned what should have been a long-forgotten war into a war that continues year after year with no end in sight.

The Arabs have refused to credibly commit to a peace treaty. That isn't to say that there aren't some Arabs who don't want peace. I'm sure many do. But the man on the street is not significant in the equation, and any Arab who starts talking peace with Israel, is gunned down. King Abdullah I of Jordan talked peace with Israel, and he was gunned down. Anwar Sadat talked peace with Israel, and he was gunned down. Pretty much any Arab leader who has ever talked peace is dead.

Also, notice how you framed it into a "fight for survival" while neglecting to mention how this fight started. This is just like the "what would you do if Hamas rockets had a <0.01% chance of landing were landing in your backyard??" question. It misses the point.

I'm very cognizant of how the war started. And it doesn't miss the point, not for most people. Most people have never lived in a warzone. It takes graphic imagery to make them understand what is at stake.

However, here's perhaps a better example: What if there was a colony of diehard Germans still camped out at Verdun, who refused to accept that they lost, and every now and again would start shelling some French villages and scream "we will make France run with blood!" How do you think that would be received?

Do you really understand the history of Israel?

Yes, thank you.

Apparently, your "one or two crimes claim" and "no systematic errors committed" claims are wrong. Thanks for honestly admitting that you were wrong about them. It takes an intellectually honest person to do so.

Comparing Palestinians to Nazi Germans is intellectually bankrupt (see underlined). Your prejudice is showing.

The problem of peace treaties and credible commitment (which you've overlooked) is that no organization can enforce the treaty on the more powerful party, Israel. That's why Israel will keep expanding its settlement program--even though it agreed not to. You can talk about UN Resolution/Treaty whatever, but without addressing Israel's systematic refusal to abide by any constraining agreement, then your criticism is lacking.

Your "they lost, we win" argument is great! You can use that to justify the apartheid of South Africa or slavery in the US: "we won; they lost!" How's that reasoning sound to you? Your argument is immoral. (Of course, you'll balk at this, but analogously it holds).

The point about government's being violent and coercive is not to support the imaginative Hobbesian necessity of governance, but to remind you that there are fundamental problems about arguing how government X is ideal, thus whatever it does is justified (which is one basic crutch of your stance). Never mind what other governments do; you'll arbitrarily insist that Israel is better cuz it's a "social democracy." You can apply that same reasoning to justify any action of any government. It's poor reasoning.

[Army of GOD]

Those are easy questions to answer. The Arabs have kept this war going for 65 years. They should have accepted their loss in 1948 in the spirit of fair play.

ITT: Dukasaur compares war and mass death to a game of one-on-one in the driveway.

[Metsfanmax]

Those are easy questions to answer. The Arabs have kept this war going for 65 years. They should have accepted their loss in 1948 in the spirit of fair play.

ITT: Dukasaur compares war and mass death to a game of one-on-one in the driveway.

Nah, he is right. The French got their asses kicked in early World War II. They should have just accepted their new masters instead of continuing to fight.

[a6mzero]

Israel ain't folding up shop and abandoning the land get over it. Saxi u can continue to write 1000 times a night about your beloved Palestinians it ain't changing a thing.

[BigBallinStalin]

Israel ain't folding up shop and abandoning the land get over it. Saxi u can continue to write 1000 times a night about your beloved Palestinians it ain't changing a thing.

Is this a reasonable position?

Let's use a new concept called: "the analogy"!


Pre-apertheid South Africa ain't folding up shop and abandoning the land get over it. u can continue to write 1000 times a night about your beloved blacks it ain't changing a thing. YEEEE HAWW!!

The KKK ain't folding up shop and abandoning its policies get over it. u can continue to write 1000 times a night about your beloved blacks it ain't changing a thing. YEEEE HAWW!!

Nazi Germany ain't folding up shop and abandoning the land get over it. u can continue to write 1000 times a night about your beloved blacks, gays, Jews, Roma people, etc. it ain't changing a thing. YEEEE HAWW!!



WHOOPS. Looks like a6mzero just made a dumb argument. Aww shucks! What a surprise! Only Dukasaur can salvage it by repeating similar arguments, and GabonX can lay down supporting fire with constant strawman bombardments--maybe he'll even throw down an irrelevant objection to "YEEE HAWW!!!"


/pro-Israel camp

[patches70]

Heh, heh, a little light heartedness in an otherwise grim thread.

The former US ambassador to the US from Israel, Michael Oren, was giving an interview on MSNBC. During the interview he answered questions with no problems. Until he was asked about Israel's spying on Kerry. Hilarity ensues.



Now that's how one dodges a question! Bravo!

I can't blame Oren too much, who would want to admit to spying on this guy?-



That's good old John Kerry, Sunday in Nantucket riding his favorite pink bicycle. Of course, the US has no room to complain about spying, now does she?

[a6mzero]

Whatever Israel will not fall.

[Gweeedo]

That is my point: really, who is going to back them...
Palestinians lost over (well over) half of their financial aid when they decided to back Saddam in the Iraq war...nobody wants to back them except the fanatics (and that is OK)...does not help their cause.
No matter.

Maybe the Palestinians should cool it down a bit, they have no hand.
Israel is king of the hill.
Hamas, Fatah, Hezbollah, Syrian Arab Army is not going to help matters, their only going to piss Israel off.
We all know what happens when Israel gets pissed off.
Why would anybody provoke the giant and then cry when he goes up in you.

War is all the inhabitants of that region know, they actually respect it.
Can't point the blame on any one party.

We should all be thankful Israel is in that region.

[BigBallinStalin]

That is my point: really, who is going to back them...\

There's this thing called "morality." If we all thought like a6, Dukasaur, or you, then we'd have no logical defense against agreeing with white supremacists, slavery, apartheid, and Nazi Germany.

Good luck with that dilemma.

[BigBallinStalin]

Whatever Israel will not fall.

Obviously, you don't mind using an argument that approves of slavery, racism, Hitler's Mein Kampf, and what not. So, why should we care about you and your immoral philosophy? How do you live with yourself--being a shitty person and all?

[saxitoxin]

Israel ain't folding up shop and abandoning the land get over it.

Yes, Israel has made it abundantly clear it won't negotiate. That's why the determination that Israel will be destroyed is a rational necessity. When one party in a dispute refuses to talk, the only option that remains is to eliminate that party.

The "destruction of Israel" does not anticipate a land invasion by tanks. The weapons being employed are public relations, diplomacy, evangelizing some religions and de-evangelizing others, shifting racial demographics, and moving the Overton Window to redefine the words and phrases people accept as normal. Katyusha rockets that can't hit the broadside of a barn aren't weapons, they're props.

Israel already lost in 1993. Now it's a withering oak. One day, we'll wake up and it just won't be there (or at least not in any recognizable form). The kind of defeat it's suffering can't be prevented by nuclear weapons. I recommend Shelley's sonnet Ozymandias for more on this topic.

Saxi u can continue to write 1000 times a night about your beloved Palestinians it ain't changing a thing.

Sorry, GreecePWNS has been covering the night shift.

[saxitoxin]

Bible Thumpers More Likely to Support Israhell

While majorities across the whole world are opposed to Israhell, positive polling for The Abominition remains high in 2 places: the USA and Israel.

1 - But in the USA the entity is most loudly supported by holy rollers, according to a new poll.


http://www.gallup.com/poll/174266/relig ... aelis.aspx

2 - At the same time, Americans are becoming less religious.

and so ...

1+2 = Your Days are Numbered

[Gweeedo]

Bible Thumpers More Likely to Support Israhell

While majorities across the whole world are opposed to Israhell, positive polling for The Abominition remains high in 2 places: the USA and Israel.

1 - But in the USA the entity is most loudly supported by holy rollers, according to a new poll.


http://www.gallup.com/poll/174266/relig ... aelis.aspx

2 - At the same time, Americans are becoming less religious.

and so ...

1+2 = Your Days are Numbered

OK, what of it?
You really think the world is going to be better off without Israel or the church?
( 1+2 = Your Days are Numbered) Look around you, do you not understand that everything around you is going to pass away...all things die..all is death.

[saxitoxin]

South African Jewish Leader: "Israel Worse than Apartheid South Africa"

Ronnie Kasrils, a Jewish member of the executive committee of the African National Congress (ANC) and former South African Minister of Intelligence, has declared Israel's human rights violations even worse than those of apartheid-era South Africa and has backed the recent call by the ANC Youth Wing that the Jacob Zuma government break diplomatic relations with Israhell and expel its ambassador.

http://www.humanite.fr/ronnie-kasrils-l ... eid-548689



Countries including Ecuador and Bolivia have already expelled the Israeli ambassadors in recent weeks.

1:06 - "Just as we struggle to free the people of Swaziland who are under the dictatorship of King Mswati, we must also say that the Israel ambassador must leave. If he does not leave voluntarily - he must be kicked out! All properties of Israel must be expropriated!"
7:21 - "In our own liberation struggle there were many white comrades. And it was the white comrades that prevented our struggle from being dragged into a drawn-out war. And today, in the struggle for the Palestinian people ... we have very many Jews! One of those is Stop the Jewish National Fund and I welcome Elohim Horowitz from Stop the JNF to speak to us today!"

[Gweeedo]

That is my point: really, who is going to back them...\

There's this thing called "morality." If we all thought like a6, Dukasaur, or you, then we'd have no logical defense against agreeing with white supremacists, slavery, apartheid, and Nazi Germany.

Good luck with that dilemma.

The morality of an action is founded in the freedom of that principle, by virtue of which it is in the agent's power, having all things ready and requisite to the performance of an action, either to perform or not perform it.

[BigBallinStalin]

That is my point: really, who is going to back them...\

There's this thing called "morality." If we all thought like a6, Dukasaur, or you, then we'd have no logical defense against agreeing with white supremacists, slavery, apartheid, and Nazi Germany.

Good luck with that dilemma.

The morality of an action is founded in the freedom of that principle, by virtue of which it is in the agent's power, having all things ready and requisite to the performance of an action, either to perform or not perform it.

I see you can copy-pasta, but can you cook from scratch?

[Gweeedo]

lol

Pasta laveesta baby!