Coming Messiah

[crispybits]

Crispy, he is not mining the bible, he is regurgitating someone else's hypothesis/theories/interpretations, one of whom is the author Hal Lindsay.
He is using other peoples work and not giving notations. Seems a tad dishonest to me.

If he's presenting someone else's hypothesis as truth, especially without crediting the original source, then he has to accept criticisms of that as if he were proposing these things himself.

Still amused

You should quote my above statement so he can read it and refute it.

Has he got you foed notyou2?

[notyou2]

Crispy, he is not mining the bible, he is regurgitating someone else's hypothesis/theories/interpretations, one of whom is the author Hal Lindsay.
He is using other peoples work and not giving notations. Seems a tad dishonest to me.

If he's presenting someone else's hypothesis as truth, especially without crediting the original source, then he has to accept criticisms of that as if he were proposing these things himself.

Still amused

You should quote my above statement so he can read it and refute it.

Has he got you foed notyou2?

Yes, as he has frequently stated, but I really don't understand why.

[universalchiro]

However, though we cannot know the day nor hour, doesn't mean we cannot know the month or year.
Hypothesis: Jesus said when you start to see these signs, know that the time is near and when the fig tree when its branch has become tender & puts forth its leaves, you know that summer is near. this generation won't pass until all these things take place."(Matthew 24:29-35)

Funny that you quote that bit and not the bit from Matthew 16:27-28 (same book, different chapter)

For the Son of Man is going to come in his Father’s glory with his angels, and then he will reward each person according to what they have done. “Truly I tell you, some who are standing here will not taste death before they see the Son of Man coming in his kingdom.”

So according to the SAME BOOK you use to claim that fig tree is Isreal to stretch your head around the fact your Messiah absolutely positively has to be coming back real soon, Jesus himself says that the disciples standing around him in Caesarea Philippi on that day will not die before the end times come. Tell me, how many of his disciples he was talking to on that day are still alive?

Also, the verse you quote out of context from Matthew 24 is heavily clipped to make it seem to be saying what you want to say. What that section you claimed that verse was actually says in full is:

29 “Right after the terrible suffering of those days,

“‘The sun will be darkened.
The moon will not shine.
The stars will fall from the sky.
The heavenly bodies will be shaken.’ (Isaiah 13:10; 34:4)

30 “At that time the sign of the Son of Man will appear in the sky. All the nations on earth will be sad. They will see the Son of Man coming on the clouds of the sky. He will come with power and great glory. 31 He will send his angels with a loud trumpet call. They will gather his chosen people from all four directions. They will bring them from one end of the heavens to the other.

32 “Learn a lesson from the fig tree. As soon as its twigs get tender and its leaves come out, you know that summer is near. 33 In the same way, when you see all those things happening, you know that the end is near. It is right at the door. 34 What I’m about to tell you is true. The people living at that time will certainly not pass away until all those things have happened. 35 Heaven and earth will pass away. But my words will never pass away.

Of course the fact you're quote mining the bible hardly surprises me, it's such a common and completely dishonest creationist tactic. The fact that you do it to your own supposedly divinely inspired and perfect word of God just to try and score a point amuses me greatly in fact...

You have made a critical error..
Matthew 16 quote of the apostles seeing the Son of Man coming in His Kingdom, well Peter James & John saw Jesus peel back His humanity and reveal His Glory at the transfiguration in Matthew 17 just a couple verses later. And the Apostles saw the resurrected Messiah and ascend to Heaven.

So your venom was launched in error.
The time is near for the Messhiahs soon return, the clock started with Israel becoming a nation in 1948. For 2,500 years they were not a nation until '48.

[universalchiro]

You quoted Isaiah about the sun turning to darkness and the moon not shining. Interesting to note in Joel 2:30-3:3 "when the sun turns to darkness and the moon into blood... when the people of Israel whom were scattered will be gathered, and God restores the fortunes of Israel (this has been fulfilled just recently) then all nations come down to the valley of Jehoshaphat (Revelation stuff)."

Add to the sun to darkness and moon blood.
There are four blood moons with a solar eclipse starting Nisan 14 2014(march/April).
One already occurred. Three more signs to come one fall 2014 blood moon. Solar eclipse, then passover blood moon and fall feast blood moon.
All blood moon on holy feasts with a solar eclipse in the middle. Pretty spectacular.

[crispybits]

You have made a critical error..

That's your interpretation. My God-given sense of the truth tells me that you're wrong

Prove me wrong....

Edit - Also, just to provide further evidence that you are talking nonsense, here is the passage I quoted that you disagree with (Matthew 16:27-28):

The Son of Man is going to come in his Father’s glory. His angels will come with him. And he will reward everyone in keeping with what they have done. “What I’m about to tell you is true. Some who are standing here will not die before they see the Son of Man coming in his kingdom.”

Now you claim that Jesus, in this context, is talking about his transfiguration in Matthew 17. Two major problems with this:

1) "His angels will come with him and he will reward everyone in keeping with what they have done" - during the transfiguration did any angels come? God came (if you believe the story) but there is no mention of angels. only Elijah and Moses who are not in any other passage ever referred to as angels. And there is also no mention of everyone receiving any kind of reward or judgement. It's very clear to anyone with any integrity that Jesus is referring to his second coming.

2) The transfiguration happened only 6 days after that passage. If he really was talking about the transfiguration as you claim then it's one of the weakest passages Jesus ever said. I could go to any group of people outside of death row, warzones or terminal illness hospices/old age homes and say to them "none of you will die during the next 6 days" and there's a 99.999... chance that I'll be proved right. It also would not mean anything in terms of predictive timescales. If I knew something was going to happen in 6 days time and I wanted to give people that sort of information one of the vaguest, least useful ways I could do it is say "it will happen within all your lifetimes". That could be anything from 5 minutes to 20-50 years depending on the age of the group.

[universalchiro]

However, though we cannot know the day nor hour, doesn't mean we cannot know the month or year.
Hypothesis: Jesus said when you start to see these signs, know that the time is near and when the fig tree when its branch has become tender & puts forth its leaves, you know that summer is near. this generation won't pass until all these things take place."(Matthew 24:29-35)

Funny that you quote that bit and not the bit from Matthew 16:27-28 (same book, different chapter)

For the Son of Man is going to come in his Father’s glory with his angels, and then he will reward each person according to what they have done. “Truly I tell you, some who are standing here will not taste death before they see the Son of Man coming in his kingdom.”

So according to the SAME BOOK you use to claim that fig tree is Isreal to stretch your head around the fact your Messiah absolutely positively has to be coming back real soon, Jesus himself says that the disciples standing around him in Caesarea Philippi on that day will not die before the end times come. Tell me, how many of his disciples he was talking to on that day are still alive?

Also, the verse you quote out of context from Matthew 24 is heavily clipped to make it seem to be saying what you want to say. What that section you claimed that verse was actually says in full is:

29 “Right after the terrible suffering of those days,

“‘The sun will be darkened.
The moon will not shine.
The stars will fall from the sky.
The heavenly bodies will be shaken.’ (Isaiah 13:10; 34:4)

30 “At that time the sign of the Son of Man will appear in the sky. All the nations on earth will be sad. They will see the Son of Man coming on the clouds of the sky. He will come with power and great glory. 31 He will send his angels with a loud trumpet call. They will gather his chosen people from all four directions. They will bring them from one end of the heavens to the other.

32 “Learn a lesson from the fig tree. As soon as its twigs get tender and its leaves come out, you know that summer is near. 33 In the same way, when you see all those things happening, you know that the end is near. It is right at the door. 34 What I’m about to tell you is true. The people living at that time will certainly not pass away until all those things have happened. 35 Heaven and earth will pass away. But my words will never pass away.

Of course the fact you're quote mining the bible hardly surprises me, it's such a common and completely dishonest creationist tactic. The fact that you do it to your own supposedly divinely inspired and perfect word of God just to try and score a point amuses me greatly in fact...

You have made a critical error..
Matthew 16 quote of the apostles seeing the Son of Man coming in His Kingdom, well Peter James & John saw Jesus peel back His humanity and reveal His Glory at the transfiguration in Matthew 17 just a couple verses later. And the Apostles saw the resurrected Messiah and ascend to Heaven.

So your venom was launched in error.
The time is near for the Messhiahs soon return, the clock started with Israel becoming a nation in 1948. For 2,500 years they were not a nation until '48.

@cripsy, you say prove you wrong, I just did. Maybe you don't see it. I'm here to have fun adult conversation and mind stimulating debates. Sometimes evolutionist bring some enjoyable strong debate and it is fun and challenging, but this style of debate where you say something in error and make a claim based on your false evidence, then I quote fact and show you your error and subsequent errant conclusion and you come back with "not ah", I'm not going to be bothered with a back and forth "not ah" debater. I hold you in higher mental esteem , you are better than that, but it is a choice, you must chose to rise above those rudimentary tactics of discussing/debating a matter. I know you have the mental fortitude, I've seen your mind work, now chose the honorable path of debating style.

[crispybits]

Check the edit I just made before your reply that gave you the reasons why you're wrong.

[universalchiro]

You have made a critical error..

That's your interpretation. My God-given sense of the truth tells me that you're wrong

Prove me wrong....

Edit - Also, just to provide further evidence that you are talking nonsense, here is the passage I quoted that you disagree with (Matthew 16:27-28):

The Son of Man is going to come in his Father’s glory. His angels will come with him. And he will reward everyone in keeping with what they have done. “What I’m about to tell you is true. Some who are standing here will not die before they see the Son of Man coming in his kingdom.”

Now you claim that Jesus, in this context, is talking about his transfiguration in Matthew 17. 2 major problems with this:

1) "His angels will come with him and he will reward everyone in keeping with what they have done" - during the transfiguration did any angels come? God came (if you believe the story) but there is no mention of angels. only Elijah and Moses who are not in any other passage ever referred to as angels. And there is also no mention of everyone receiving any kind of reward or judgement. It's very clear to anyone with any integrity that Jesus is referring to his second coming.

2) The transfiguration happened only 6 days after that passage. If he really was talking about the transfiguration as you claim then it's one of the weakest passages Jesus ever said. I could go to any group of people outside of death row, warzones or terminal illness hospices/old age homes and say to them "none of you will die during the next 6 days" and there's a 99.999... chance that I'll be proved right. It also would not mean anything in terms of predictive timescales. If I knew something was going to happen in 6 days time and I wanted to give people that sort of information one of the vaguest, least useful ways I could do it is say "it will happen within all your lifetimes". That could be anything from 5 minutes to 20-50 years depending on the age of the group.

[Crsipy wrote

by crispybitson Sun Jul 27, 2014 4:51 am

universalchiro wrote: You have made a critical error..

That's your interpretation. My God-given sense of the truth tells me that you're wrong

Prove me wrong....

QFT
For which I replied,give me a moment and I'll reply to your edit.

[crispybits]

I don't disagree that my post originally said that. It still does in fact. I made it quite clear (unlike some people) that I had changed/added something to it and what exactty that was.

[universalchiro]

You have made a critical error..

That's your interpretation. My God-given sense of the truth tells me that you're wrong

Prove me wrong....

Edit - Also, just to provide further evidence that you are talking nonsense, here is the passage I quoted that you disagree with (Matthew 16:27-28):

The Son of Man is going to come in his Father’s glory. His angels will come with him. And he will reward everyone in keeping with what they have done. “What I’m about to tell you is true. Some who are standing here will not die before they see the Son of Man coming in his kingdom.”

Now you claim that Jesus, in this context, is talking about his transfiguration in Matthew 17. Two major problems with this:

1) "His angels will come with him and he will reward everyone in keeping with what they have done" - during the transfiguration did any angels come? God came (if you believe the story) but there is no mention of angels. only Elijah and Moses who are not in any other passage ever referred to as angels. And there is also no mention of everyone receiving any kind of reward or judgement. It's very clear to anyone with any integrity that Jesus is referring to his second coming.

2) The transfiguration happened only 6 days after that passage. If he really was talking about the transfiguration as you claim then it's one of the weakest passages Jesus ever said. I could go to any group of people outside of death row, warzones or terminal illness hospices/old age homes and say to them "none of you will die during the next 6 days" and there's a 99.999... chance that I'll be proved right. It also would not mean anything in terms of predictive timescales. If I knew something was going to happen in 6 days time and I wanted to give people that sort of information one of the vaguest, least useful ways I could do it is say "it will happen within all your lifetimes". That could be anything from 5 minutes to 20-50 years depending on the age of the group.

I agree with what you wrote as you present it with a partial quote, but why would you quote half of my statement and not the "and" portion whichwould have saved both of us a lot of time. You accused me of mining cherry picking the scriptures, you are guilty of the very thing you accused me of.

6 quote of the apostles seeing the Son of Man coming in His Kingdom, well Peter James & John saw Jesus peel back His humanity and reveal His Glory at the transfiguration in Matthew 17 just a couple verses later and the Apostles saw the resurrected Messiah and ascend to Heaven.

So your venom was launched in error. The time is near for the Messhiahs soon return, the clock started with Israel becoming a nation in 1948. For 2,500 years they were not a nation until '48.

QFT

[crispybits]

Maybe because the bit of your statement I left out wasn't the bit I was disagreeing with in particular and by leaving it out I did not make your words appear to mean anything other than you actually meant?

There's a difference between quote mining and replying to a specific statement. By only quoting that one bit of your statement I wasn't distorting your statement to make it appear to mean anything other than it did. Quote mining involves picking bits of people's statements to make them appear to mean something other than they do, such as:

"Like a tree blooms and you know summer is near. This generation will not pass until this happens" (implies that the generation will not pass until the tree blooms)

"Like a tree blooms and you know summer is near. Just like that when you see these totally different things I've been talking about happening you will know this other thing will happen. This generation will not pass until those things happen." (makes it very clear that the tree is just a simile and has absolutely nothing to do with what will occur before the generation passes)

But regardless of that little lesson about honest debating tactics vs dishonest debating tactics did you seriously just agree that Jesus himself said that before the apostles standing with him on that day died he would bring the second coming? I have to ask again then - are they still alive?

[universalchiro]

No, not second coming, the apostles would see Him coming in His Kingdom, which they saw at the tranfiguration , they saw the glory of the Lord, the King, the Son of God in deity form with the Father's affirmation of His authority. AND they saw angels and His resurrected body after He rose from the grave. So all that I wrote is in harmony with scripture.

All the apostle are dead. AND before they died they saw the Kingdom of Heaven: Jesus AND angels.
Not the 2nd coming obviously.

[crispybits]

No we've literally JUST BEEN THROUGH THIS - Jesus in Matthew 16 says the event they will see before they die will include angels and rewards for everyone according to their works, neither of which are in the transfiguration. You just agreed that what Jesus was talking about in Matthew 16 was the second coming.

[universalchiro]

Looks like you are just being difficult on purpose here, but I don't expect you to comprehend scripture, they are spiritually discerned and you lack the spirit of God, so you are incapable of understanding the scriptures (1 Cor 2:14-16)

The scripture is clear that as Jesus Promised SOME standing here (disciples) will not taste death until they see the Son of Man coming in His Kingdom. Peter James and John saw Jesus as King, in Deity form at the transfiguration a couple of days later (Matthew 17), and they all saw His resurrected immortal body and ascend to heaven after 40 days walking about after rose from grave. Angels were seen as well. And 50 days after passover they received the gift/reward of the Holy Spirit at Pentacost.

I get it, you reject all truth in the Bible and I always write lies, we will have to agree to disagree. But since this is such a simple concept that you won't/cannot see, I question your thought process and you are not enjoyable to go back and forth with on such a simple concept. You are frankly exhausting to go back and forth with having to re explain simple things to you. Deep sigh.

[crispybits]

The Son of Man is going to come in his Father’s glory. His angels will come with him. And he will reward everyone in keeping with what they have done. “What I’m about to tell you is true. Some who are standing here will not die before they see the Son of Man coming in his kingdom.”

That is not talking about the transfiguration because it says his angels will come with him and everyone will be rewarded according to their deeds. That is the passage in question. That passage says that some who are standing there will not die before they see it. Therefore there are only 3 options:

a) Some of those standing there with Jesus are still alive.
b) You are wrong about the second coming being imminent, because it happened at least 1900 years ago.
c) The whole thing is nonsense.

Edit - further to that you are flat out lying about angels at the ascension - neither of the two gospels the ascension is included in include any mention of angels.

Also EVERYONE will be rewarded according to their deeds means EVERYONE. Not just those guys.

I call BS yet again - you have to lie (again) misquote (again) and generally be thoroughly dishonest to defend your indefensible beliefs.

[jonesthecurl]

I haven't had time to join in recently - but from where I'm stading, chiro, crispy seems to be winning this one hands down.

[universalchiro]

Ha ha Jones, can you be objective in this matter? Is it possible that crispy who hates God and hates scripture, know more or be correct in a debate with one that Loves God and Loves scripture. Crispy got worked. Again.

[universalchiro]

crispy will do whatever it takes, but he is gravely mistaken. A usual custom of prophets to authenticate a prophecy in the long term, will prophecy of something in the short term to validate the long term prophecy. So Matthew 16:27 is a long term prophecy and verse 28 is the short term prophecy to authenticate the previous long term.
That's why verse 28 starts off with a new theme by Jesus opening with "Truly I say to you, there are some of those who are standing here who will not taste death until they see the Son of Man coming in His Kingdom". All three gospels that have this event have the Transfiguration after this event. Because the "some" Peter James & John saw Jesus in Deity form, they saw the Son of Man in His Kingdom, in His realm, glorified. The Transfiguration completely fulfilled verse 28.
Verse 27 is still future but authenticated by the near term prophecy(verse 28) being fulfilled.

[patches70]

Yeah, people who study the bible understand that Matthew 16:27-28 is talking about the transfiguration.

I guess to be fair there are two main interpretations of that passage. The first being that it is about the transfiguration.
The second being about the Son of Man's authority and reign post resurrection.

When taken in context the former theory is more likely. Simon Peter wrote a letter to the members of the early church, that letter is remembered in 2 Peter of the New Testament. In 2 Peter 1:16-18 talks about what happened during the transfiguration, Peter's own eyewitness account. In 2 Peter 1:16 he explicitly states it's not stories about Jesus' power and coming, but of his majesty. The majesty specifically on display during the transfiguration.


Then there is the whole purpose of the transfiguration, something I don't think that crispy would easily grasp. The transfiguration was as much for the benefit of the disciples as it was to reveal the majesty of Jesus.

Now it does seem that crispy may be mixing up some stuff by applying one of the main interpretations of Revelation to the transfiguration.
Revelation is a strange book that's often misinterpreted by many. Some view Revelation from the Preterists, that the events described in the book have already happened, which seems to me what crispy is describing (I could be wrong about that).
Some view the book from the Historicists, that it's describing a long chain of events from Patmos to the end of history.
Or the Futurists who place the book almost exclusively in the end times, which seems to be the way UC sees it (I could be wrong about that).
Or Idealists who view the book as mainly symbolic.

But one need not adopt any particular view to understand Revelation. The whole reason why John wrote Revelation was to encourage the faithful from engaging in Emperor worship and to stand firm in the face of evil.

It's not bad advise as so many today are enamored with cult of personalities, sin and hedonism. Which has been how most of mankind has been like for pretty much our entire history since the beginning of civilization.
UC can get the message because he knows that as long as he stands fast and holds to his beliefs and lives a righteous life, then he is shielded from spiritual harm and he'll be vindicated. Either in this world or the next.
Crispy seems not to really pay much attention to spiritual harm and thus isn't going to be able to relate very well to UC.
And UC doesn't ever bother anyone, that I've seen at least. He just states his beliefs and takes umpteen amounts of grief for it, just as John wrote oh so long ago that it would be like that for UC.

All I see from UC is him trying to explain certain truths in life as he sees them, and that's A-Ok by me. Others though, tend to get bent out of shape for some reason when in truth UC isn't trying to force anyone to believe as he does.

But meh, y'all keep on with the "No! Your wrong!" stuff, it's amusing.

[crispybits]

"I am going to come to your house. My wife will come with me. All of your neighbours will mow their front lawns. This will happen before you next eat pizza for dinner."

If I made that "propechy", then turned up a couple of days later at your house, without my wife, and without any of your neighbours mowing their front lawns either before or during my visit, but before you next have pizza for dinner, have I fulfilled any prophecy? No I haven't.

Grammatically that is exactly identical to Jesus' "prophecy" and the lack of wife or mowing of lawns is exactly identical to the lack of angels (at either the transfiguration or the ascension) and the lack of reward for everyone in keeping with what they have done (which is always about judgement day in the end times every other time the concept is mentioned in the bible). I don't even care about the angels bit, Jesus specifically talks about everyone being rewarded in keeping with their deeds within the lifetime of his disciples. This couldn't be any more clear in the context of every single other passage in the bible about universal judgement that it's an end times prophecy. Can you provide any other passage from the bible where EVERYONE will be judged according to anything and rewarded accordingly that isn't talking about the end of days?

And patches - I have plenty of beliefs. I don't come onto forums and proclaim those beliefs, and guess what, on those beliefs where I do not come into public spaces and proclaim those beliefs I don't get challenged on those beliefs. UC is free to believe whatever he wants, but when he proclaims those beliefs in public then everyone else is free to respond to that and say what they think. Or should every one of the many threads UC starts about how evolution is false or how the end times are here or whatever nonsense he wants to believe next be one post of him saying "I believe X" and everyone just reading and clicking out again? That's not how discussions work.

And while I respect UCs right to hold any belief he wants, that doesn't give him the right to proclaim it in a discussion forum without also being open to criticism of the belief, and it doesn't give him the right to use dishonest tactics to try and justify it.

[universalchiro]

Nope, you are combining two prophecies:
When Jesus stood in the temple and He picked up the Isaiah scroll and turned to chptr 61, He read half of what seemed as one whole prophecy, then He sat down and said "this is fulfilled in your hearing.
There was an opportunity for one coming, where Jesus was crucified for sins but reigns after resurrection, that is why Jesus said John was the Elijah to prepare the way "if you were willing to receive", but they reject the messenger , had him beheaded and rejected the King & crucified Him. Therefore, God knowing their rejection before time began determined a 2nd coming.
Satan doesn't know when the 2nd coming is so he is continually grooming the Anti-christ for successive eras.
So the Matt 16:27 has 2nd coming words.
However verse 28 is a different statement, "some here will see the splendor of the Lord, doesn't say angels nor judgment. Verse 28 was fulfilled 6 days later.
You are trying to force the two verse together. Not going to work.
Here is proof 2nd coming is still future:
Isaiah 24:18-20 says the heavens open , the earth splits asunder & wobbles as a drunkard.
Rev 16:18-21 every island & every mountain is removed from severe earth shaking
Rev 21:1 there were no seas remaining. God dwells in Jerusalem and his light shames the sun and there is no night.

[universalchiro]

Israel has an "Iron Dome Shield" that detects rockets being launched at Israel, targets those miss les and destroys them with precision missles. Is this true?
If yes, could this be a fulfillment: Isaiah 31:5 ? B/c God primarily uses natural means to carry out His supernatural plans.

" Like birds hovering overhead, the LORD Almighty will shield Jerusalem; he will shield it and deliver it, he will 'pass over' it and will rescue it."

? Thoughts?

[AndyDufresne]

Israel has an "Iron Dome Shield" that detects rockets being launched at Israel, targets those miss les and destroys them with precision missles. Is this true?
If yes, could this be a fulfillment:
Isaiah 31:5 ►

New International Version Like birds hovering overhead, the LORD Almighty will shield Jerusalem; he will shield it and deliver it, he will 'pass over' it and will rescue it."

? Thoughts?

The Lord isn't shielding them. US dollars and Tamir interceptor missiles are I think.


--Andy

[Dukasaur]

Israel has an "Iron Dome Shield" that detects rockets being launched at Israel, targets those miss les and destroys them with precision missles. Is this true?
If yes, could this be a fulfillment:
Isaiah 31:5 ►

New International Version Like birds hovering overhead, the LORD Almighty will shield Jerusalem; he will shield it and deliver it, he will 'pass over' it and will rescue it."

? Thoughts?

The Lord isn't shielding them. US dollars and Tamir interceptor missiles are I think.


--Andy

See: http://www.theguardian.com/world/2005/oct/07/iraq.usa

[AndyDufresne]

THE END IS NIGH


--Andy