ISIS - Who da f*ck are you?

[BigBallinStalin]

Point missed.
I was pointing out that Saddam deliberately targeted the Kurds to try and wipe them out. You know, the one group that isn't stuck in continuous tribal warfare, not afraid to fight the terroristic ISIS, are not radicals, and do not target civilians?

I'm not going to make excuses for what happened out of my control, but it doesn't mean I'm going to overlook these sorts of things either when others will.

Good point. Benefits and costs make for proper analysis.

1. Yes, we used the A-bomb on Japan. An evil, but at the time, considered the lesser of two evils (before it was understood the after effects of radiation from them), as the alternative was a massive land invasion in order to end an already long and costly war.

False, that's a myth. Several prominent generals at that time rejected that reasoning. It was mainly Truman pushing for the nukes--seemingly because he just wanted kill a lot of people and greatly ensure that the Russians would hold no claim on future American territories. The Japanese government was essentially suing for unconditional surrender weeks before the bombs were dropped, but the issue hung on retaining the emperor (which the USG allowed anyway).

An imagined assault on the mainland was hardly likely, and its estimated losses were greatly exaggerated since the previous bombing campaigns, years of rationing, 10+ year war weariness, ec. greatly crippled the Japanese mainland's ability to fight. And a peace treaty was already being taken seriously and credibly by the Japanese government. In short, that alternative was hardly likely to be true, and this wasn't a 'lesser than two evils' situation. In my opinion, it's just another case of US government terrorism.

http://www.antiwar.com/henderson/?articleid=11405

2. Tzor covered Agent Orange.

If you buy into that story, you'd probably believe the myth behind the decision to nuke Nagasaki and Hiroshima.

3. You make it sound like all US citizens approve of whatever the US government does, especially when it happened say, before I was born/too young to even understand it at the time. Kind of shows your understanding (or lack thereof) of Americans and Western countries in general.

But yeah, my point was that Saddam targeted a group for genocide, the means of which don't really matter, but that he tried. But let's just forget about it and pretend nothing like that happened, after all, he otherwise kept Iraq stable. Right?

The original point was about unsavory dictators preventing militant extremists from running rampant. Goran mentions that Saddam was better than the rulers afterward; you counter with Saddam's genocide of the Kurds which killed about 5000 people. The US and Co.'s attack and occupation of Iraq resulted in about 50k dead soldiers on all sides, about 100k civilians dead--with an estimated 120k-600k civilians dead (wounded omitted).

So, if dead bodies is the criteria, then you need to find another 31-120 genocides to make a convincing case.

[BigBallinStalin]

1. Yes, we used the A-bomb on Japan.
...
3. You make it sound like all US citizens approve of whatever the US government does, especially when it happened say, before I was born/too young to even understand it at the time

Well, the atom bombs were dropped before you were born and yet you're talking about that as if you were collectively involved in it. Stand to reason you (and other Americans) were collectively involved in more recent US government actions too.

National identity tends to abandon critical thinking.

For the record, I did not use the A-bomb on Japan, enslave many people, nor shoot a bunch of American Indians so that I could acquire their lands and cool headgear.

[mrswdk]

For the record, I did not use the A-bomb on Japan, enslave many people, nor shoot a bunch of American Indians so that I could acquire their lands and cool headgear.

Cheer up. Think of the opportunities tomorrow may bring!

[BigBallinStalin]

For the record, I did not use the A-bomb on Japan, enslave many people, nor shoot a bunch of American Indians so that I could acquire their lands and cool headgear.

Cheer up. Think of the opportunities tomorrow may bring!

[muy_thaiguy]

Point missed.
I was pointing out that Saddam deliberately targeted the Kurds to try and wipe them out. You know, the one group that isn't stuck in continuous tribal warfare, not afraid to fight the terroristic ISIS, are not radicals, and do not target civilians?

I'm not going to make excuses for what happened out of my control, but it doesn't mean I'm going to overlook these sorts of things either when others will.

Good point. Benefits and costs make for proper analysis.

1. Yes, we used the A-bomb on Japan. An evil, but at the time, considered the lesser of two evils (before it was understood the after effects of radiation from them), as the alternative was a massive land invasion in order to end an already long and costly war.

False, that's a myth. Several prominent generals at that time rejected that reasoning. It was mainly Truman pushing for the nukes--seemingly because he just wanted kill a lot of people and greatly ensure that the Russians would hold no claim on future American territories. The Japanese government was essentially suing for unconditional surrender weeks before the bombs were dropped, but the issue hung on retaining the emperor (which the USG allowed anyway).

An imagined assault on the mainland was hardly likely, and its estimated losses were greatly exaggerated since the previous bombing campaigns, years of rationing, 10+ year war weariness, ec. greatly crippled the Japanese mainland's ability to fight. And a peace treaty was already being taken seriously and credibly by the Japanese government. In short, that alternative was hardly likely to be true, and this wasn't a 'lesser than two evils' situation. In my opinion, it's just another case of US government terrorism.

http://www.antiwar.com/henderson/?articleid=11405

And yet Japanese fanaticism was still rampant even that late into the war (let's not forget the soldiers who would come out of hiding up until the 1970s thinking the war was still going on and ready to fight the enemies of Japan. And Operation Downfall was only scrapped because the Japanese finally surrendered after the dropping of the A-bombs.
http://www.historylearningsite.co.uk/op ... wnfall.htm
Plus, the Japanese fanaticism at the time was insane (figuratively and literally). The Kamikaze "fighters", soldiers wielding katanas and running straight at entrenched machinegun batteries, and the Japanese government telling the people to be prepared to fight to the death should an invasion come. And considering that the Japanese fought almost to the last during the Pacific Campaign in every battle (very few Japanese prisoners were taken over the course of the war), the US military leaders had every right to expect high casualties should they invade. And the A-bombs were also so secretive, very few even among the Command even knew they existed.

It was not a myth, but a grim plan that the US forces had to plan out extensively. And in a war were both sides had targeted civilian population centers all over the world, it was to be either 2 bombs that killed a couple hundred thousand people, or the largest land invasion ever that was estimated to cause at least 1 million total casualties, and that would have been on the conservative side. That is historical fact.

2. Tzor covered Agent Orange.

If you buy into that story, you'd probably believe the myth behind the decision to nuke Nagasaki and Hiroshima.

Not asking you to like it or anything of the sort. To each their own.

3. You make it sound like all US citizens approve of whatever the US government does, especially when it happened say, before I was born/too young to even understand it at the time. Kind of shows your understanding (or lack thereof) of Americans and Western countries in general.

But yeah, my point was that Saddam targeted a group for genocide, the means of which don't really matter, but that he tried. But let's just forget about it and pretend nothing like that happened, after all, he otherwise kept Iraq stable. Right?

The original point was about unsavory dictators preventing militant extremists from running rampant. Goran mentions that Saddam was better than the rulers afterward; you counter with Saddam's genocide of the Kurds which killed about 5000 people. The US and Co.'s attack and occupation of Iraq resulted in about 50k dead soldiers on all sides, about 100k civilians dead--with an estimated 120k-600k civilians dead (wounded omitted).

So, if dead bodies is the criteria, then you need to find another 31-120 genocides to make a convincing case.

I didn't "counter" anything. I was just pointing out that there was more than 1 side to Saddam. Yeah, he kept terrorists out of power, but he also targeted the Kurds, civilians at that. Everyone else is happy to point out the shortcomings of every Western Leader, particularly those of the US, but God forbid it be pointed out of any other ruler or leader.

[BigBallinStalin]

And yet Japanese fanaticism was still rampant even that late into the war (let's not forget the soldiers who would come out of hiding up until the 1970s thinking the war was still going on and ready to fight the enemies of Japan. And Operation Downfall was only scrapped because the Japanese finally surrendered after the dropping of the A-bombs.
http://www.historylearningsite.co.uk/op ... wnfall.htm
Plus, the Japanese fanaticism at the time was insane (figuratively and literally). The Kamikaze "fighters", soldiers wielding katanas and running straight at entrenched machinegun batteries, and the Japanese government telling the people to be prepared to fight to the death should an invasion come. And considering that the Japanese fought almost to the last during the Pacific Campaign in every battle (very few Japanese prisoners were taken over the course of the war), the US military leaders had every right to expect high casualties should they invade. And the A-bombs were also so secretive, very few even among the Command even knew they existed.

It was not a myth, but a grim plan that the US forces had to plan out extensively. And in a war were both sides had targeted civilian population centers all over the world, it was to be either 2 bombs that killed a couple hundred thousand people, or the largest land invasion ever that was estimated to cause at least 1 million total casualties, and that would have been on the conservative side. That is historical fact.

There's an infinite supply of imagining all sorts of worst-case scenarios, but you're still not addressing the arguments by US generals which have shown that such a worst-case scenario was largely unrealistic. Think about it: why would the Japanese government even pursue an unconditional surrender (but balk on the emperor part), if they really believed they could sustain the war and somehow keep the US and the USSR at bay?

(Do you really think you have a better understanding of Japan's fighting capacity at that time than its own generals?)

How does your contention of an alleged widespread fanaticism leading to a prolonged war and the presence of small, post-war pro-imperial forces justify nuking two cities (which was--as you ignored--not supported by those US generals)?

For your justification to hold, you'll need to explain how an immediate, full-scale invasion (regardless of the peace talks) would have been the most likely way of defeating Japan. But since that wasn't the only possibility nor was it the most likely--given the greater likelihood of Japan surrendering and what the generals said about Japan's actual incapacity to prolong the war, your justification doesn't follow.

Not asking you to like it or anything of the sort. To each their own.

I didn't mention anything about liking something; it's about being factually correct. You did read the article, right? You didn't let your emotions control you when presented with contradictory information, did you?

I didn't "counter" anything. I was just pointing out that there was more than 1 side to Saddam. Yeah, he kept terrorists out of power, but he also targeted the Kurds, civilians at that. Everyone else is happy to point out the shortcomings of every Western Leader, particularly those of the US, but God forbid it be pointed out of any other ruler or leader.

I'm pretty sure everyone agrees that "there's more to one side to Saddam," and that "there are benefits and costs for all political regimes," but I didn't see GoranZ rabidly defending Saddam, so now what? I don't see how your position is relevant.

He just said that Saddam was better than what the US/NATO did to Iraq. Do you disagree?

[GoranZ]

The original point was about unsavory dictators preventing militant extremists from running rampant. Goran mentions that Saddam was better than the rulers afterward; you counter with Saddam's genocide of the Kurds which killed about 5000 people. The US and Co.'s attack and occupation of Iraq resulted in about 50k dead soldiers on all sides, about 100k civilians dead--with an estimated 120k-600k civilians dead (wounded omitted).

So, if dead bodies is the criteria, then you need to find another 31-120 genocides to make a convincing case.

I didn't "counter" anything. I was just pointing out that there was more than 1 side to Saddam. Yeah, he kept terrorists out of power, but he also targeted the Kurds, civilians at that. Everyone else is happy to point out the shortcomings of every Western Leader, particularly those of the US, but God forbid it be pointed out of any other ruler or leader.

1 sword with 2 blades... the side that you are favoring is much more blood thirsty

[a6mzero]

All u have to do to find out what is true is follow the money. 1/2 million purple hearts were manufactured in anticipation of the invasion of Japan.On Okinowa alone total deaths were >240,000.The Japanese used 2,000 kamikazis at Okinowa. They had approx 10,000 available for defense of the home islands. They were hoping to force an armistice by making the invasion so costly they were not trying to surrender.Projections by mulitple sources anticipated total causalities in the neighborhood of 7 to 8 million.

[BigBallinStalin]

All u have to do to find out what is true is follow the money. 1/2 million purple hearts were manufactured in anticipation of the invasion of Japan.On Okinowa alone total deaths were >240,000.The Japanese used 2,000 kamikazis at Okinowa. They had approx 10,000 available for defense of the home islands. They were hoping to force an armistice by making the invasion so costly they were not trying to surrender.Projections by mulitple sources anticipated total causalities in the neighborhood of 7 to 8 million.

Yeah, man. Bureaucracies are great indicators of future demand. The bureaucracy which expands its budget by producing more purple hearts is not going to heed the advice of anyone suggesting that the demand will fall because that would justify lowering their budget. If the bureaucracy makes a mistake, it won't be held accountability because it (selectively) followed certain advice which conveniently reaffirmed their plan of expanding the budget.

I'm gonna side with the US generals, Japanese government officials, and the real circumstances on this one.

[a6mzero]

Even after the 2nd bomb on 8/9/45 the imperial council voted 2 reject surrender. 1000 B-29 raids later they acepted surrender on 8/15 and even then continued fighting the Ussr.U can side with whoever u like, doesn't change the fact the militarist ran Japan not the civilian government.

[BigBallinStalin]

Even after the 2nd bomb on 8/9/45 the imperial council voted 2 reject surrender. 1000 B-29 raids later they acepted surrender on 8/15 and even then continued fighting the Ussr.U can side with whoever u like, doesn't change the fact the militarist ran Japan not the civilian government.

So, in order for people to believe you, you have to provide sources; otherwise, they'll think you're full of shit.

And I mean sources about each claim. This way, when you're looking for sources to verify your claims, you'll realize that your statements are verified or are not verified before posting.

Good luck.

[a6mzero]

This is a fucking two bit Internet forum on a gaming site no less and now to b a learned scholar sources r required ? Didn't read the part of the CC bylaws which stated sources were required to post too the forum. Didn't realize when u posted on this university accredited site sources were required in order to prevent charges of plagerism on my term paper. Didn't realize when u posted here the requirements were the same as english lit. God what a pompous lot of motherfuckers on this forum . No wonder membership is dying. Let me repeat its a FUCKING GAME SITE!!! I'm not posting sources for historical facts that anyone with a more than rudimentary knowledge of WW2 would know.So stick it in your damn ear Mr King of the CC forum. That title and $7 will buy u a cup of coffee at Starbucks.

[PLAYER57832]

The problem with your theory is that:

1. You have assumed that I consider the US government incompetent,
2. You assume the US government is incompetent.

You cannot prove 1, because it is not true. I consider the government extremely competent in carrying out its intentions. As to why moves us to 2.

The only way you can call the US government incompetent is thus: The US government is the most incompetent government, except for all the other governments in the world. The US in the sole superpower, defeating all competitors. How does this equate to incompetence?

False flag operations were described in the Art of War, a 2500 year old text which is mandatory reading for all officers in the US military. Is the US so incompetent that it could not pull one off (remember the US has the most competent military in the world) or made of stronger moral stuff (the US have overthrown more than 100 democratically elected governments)?

Actually, the problem is other... the US keeps acting as if it is still a superpower, but has long ago sold off its power to business interests, who were perfectly happy to sell our technologies, etc off to China, Russia, not to mention Saudis Arabia....but more importantly to all the myriad of small nations that are our "allies".

[Army of GOD]

This is a fucking two bit Internet forum on a gaming site no less and now to b a learned scholar sources r required ? Didn't read the part of the CC bylaws which stated sources were required to post too the forum. Didn't realize when u posted on this university accredited site sources were required in order to prevent charges of plagerism on my term paper. Didn't realize when u posted here the requirements were the same as english lit. God what a pompous lot of motherfuckers on this forum . No wonder membership is dying. Let me repeat its a FUCKING GAME SITE!!! I'm not posting sources for historical facts that anyone with a more than rudimentary knowledge of WW2 would know.So stick it in your damn ear Mr King of the CC forum. That title and $7 will buy u a cup of coffee at Starbucks.

Posting sources would've taken less energy then getting on your soapbox.

So obviously you're lying out of your ass.

[a6mzero]

Yes my mission in life is to post lies about WW2.Heres a better one why don't u try reading a history book Bitch.

[Army of GOD]

Why did you capitalize bitch?

[a6mzero]

Lets see Japan rejected surrender end of july(Potsdam agreement) and after both bombs and yet u felt free to call me a liar. U and some others here don't know jackshit about WW2 except how to pontificate about it and call people liars. U probably think the battle of Peleliu was fought by Napoleon to save France from the 6th Coalition.I know without providing sources there was no battle of Peleliu,no Napoleon, and no 6th Coalition.

[BigBallinStalin]

This is a fucking two bit Internet forum on a gaming site no less and now to b a learned scholar sources r required ? Didn't read the part of the CC bylaws which stated sources were required to post too the forum. Didn't realize when u posted on this university accredited site sources were required in order to prevent charges of plagerism on my term paper. Didn't realize when u posted here the requirements were the same as english lit. God what a pompous lot of motherfuckers on this forum . No wonder membership is dying. Let me repeat its a FUCKING GAME SITE!!! I'm not posting sources for historical facts that anyone with a more than rudimentary knowledge of WW2 would know.So stick it in your damn ear Mr King of the CC forum. That title and $7 will buy u a cup of coffee at Starbucks.

We get it: you value your opinion much more than any meaningful search for the truth.

This isn't about CC; it's about people like you. With your standard of 'truth', you're opening yourself to manipulation--especially from politicians and the intellectual dishonest. You have the power to protect yourself, but unfortunately you keep choosing to ignore your flaws while lashing out at others.

Don't you value truth? Don't you want to avoid being manipulated and exploited?

[a6mzero]

Manipulated and exploited on a game site forum where no one knows who I am ?dude I need some of what u r smoking so I can experience being batshit crazy.If I feel like posting I will and I will not be touching up my APA format skills to do so.

[BigBallinStalin]

Manipulated and exploited on a game site forum where no one knows who I am ?dude I need some of what u r smoking so I can experience being batshit crazy.If I feel like posting I will and I will not be touching up my APA format skills to do so.

Wow... I thought you could make the connection yourself. Judging from your stupidity in this thread, it's safe to assume you're just as stupid out in the real world. Have fun being ignorant and manipulated.

[Gillipig]

Manipulated and exploited on a game site forum where no one knows who I am ?dude I need some of what u r smoking so I can experience being batshit crazy.If I feel like posting I will and I will not be touching up my APA format skills to do so.

Wow... I thought you could make the connection yourself. Judging from your stupidity in this thread, it's safe to assume you're just as stupid out in the real world. Have fun being ignorant and manipulated.

First time you interact with the people who govern your country? The stupid masses are content with being stupid BBS, they don't actually mind it. I know it's hard to grasp but that's the way it is.

[a6mzero]

Manipulated and exploited on a game site forum where no one knows who I am ?dude I need some of what u r smoking so I can experience being batshit crazy.If I feel like posting I will and I will not be touching up my APA format skills to do so.

Wow... I thought you could make the connection yourself. Judging from your stupidity in this thread, it's safe to assume you're just as stupid out in the real world. Have fun being ignorant and manipulated.

It's also safe to assume your a pompous fucking prick who spends his day calling others stupid and idiotic.I've noticed noticed no one is beneath your contempt on this site(other than your ass sucking Jew hating dweeb friend Saxi)so scroll around here like your the big fucking man on campus if it floats your boat. I don't know how I will sleep tonight knowing I'm not an intellectual giant such as yourself.

[a6mzero]

I was't on a a damn meaningful a quest for the truth to start with all I was doing was commenting about how many times the Japanese rejected surrender in the summer of 1945. I wasn't writing a masters thesis just stating my knowledge of events learned through years of being hobbyist so to speak of WW2.Now u can flap your gums some more about how stupid I am but it don't change the fucking facts about the surrender.

[Gillipig]

Manipulated and exploited on a game site forum where no one knows who I am ?dude I need some of what u r smoking so I can experience being batshit crazy.If I feel like posting I will and I will not be touching up my APA format skills to do so.

Wow... I thought you could make the connection yourself. Judging from your stupidity in this thread, it's safe to assume you're just as stupid out in the real world. Have fun being ignorant and manipulated.

It's also safe to assume your a pompous fucking prick who spends his day calling others stupid and idiotic.I've noticed noticed no one is beneath your contempt on this site(other than your ass sucking Jew hating dweeb friend Saxi)so scroll around here like your the big fucking man on campus if it floats your boat. I don't know how I will sleep tonight knowing I'm not an intellectual giant such as yourself.

Stop complimenting BBS! His ego doesn't need any boosting. And don't you call him out on anti jewishness, don't you know they're included under his category of good bigotry?