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The USA Left led Military ,worst Defeat/blunder in 200 years

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Re: The USA Left led Military ,worst Defeat/blunder in 200 y

Postby bigtoughralf on Tue Aug 31, 2021 6:12 am

Those military units collapsed because the Americans withdrew their logistical support for them basically overnight.

Not saying I care, but the US-backed administration in Kabul never really had its own independent military capable of taking on the Taliban. So when their American backers ghosted them and the Taliban offered them a choice between getting money and amnesty in return for giving up and going home, or having to fight a tooled-up army of fundamentalist zealots with little/no support, itā€™s not much of a surprise that a lot of the US forces chose option A.
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Re: The USA Left led Military ,worst Defeat/blunder in 200 y

Postby HitRed on Tue Aug 31, 2021 7:02 am

bigtoughralf wrote:Those military units collapsed because the Americans withdrew their logistical support for them basically overnight.

Not saying I care, but the US-backed administration in Kabul never really had its own independent military capable of taking on the Taliban. So when their American backers ghosted them and the Taliban offered them a choice between getting money and amnesty in return for giving up and going home, or having to fight a tooled-up army of fundamentalist zealots with little/no support, itā€™s not much of a surprise that a lot of the US forces chose option A.


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Re: The USA Left led Military ,worst Defeat/blunder in 200 y

Postby HitRed on Tue Aug 31, 2021 7:10 am

American equipment is maintenance intensive, complex and parts hungry (expensive). Foreign contractors and the US military handled most/all fixing the helicopters, fixed wing aircraft and fighting vehicles. In the movie Charlie Wilsonā€™s War the Afghanistanā€™s were supplied with simple weapons (Soviet) that were designed have little upkeep and could be fixed in the field. The USAs weapons are awesome but a mismatch for a third world country.

ā€œAfghanistan is a country with one of the lowest literacy rates in the world according to the UN Childrenā€™s Fund (UNICEF).ā€
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Re: The USA Left led Military ,worst Defeat/blunder in 200 y

Postby ConfederateSS on Tue Aug 31, 2021 1:14 pm

-------Jp4fun... Gettysburg wasn't a blunder....It wasn't even Lee's target,he was heading for the North's main supply center...One of Lee's Units...were looking for shoes...A nearby town,near Gettysburg had over 10,000 shoes....As this unit headed for the town near Gettysburg...A small advance unit met up with a small Union scouting party ...They dug in...Started shooting at each other...The Confederate reinforcements began to pill in...The Union unit fell back onto a hill formation that looked like a fish hook...Now General Lee tried to smash them...Why he had them out numbered...But it was up hill...Mean while General Staurt ,Lee's top calvary scout.. Hadn't shown up yet...On Day 2 As Union force where pilling in...General Longstreet told Lee we should abandon this and head for Washington D.C...to pull the Union troops off the hill...Lee started his day 2 Attack...On day 3 Longstreet once again told Lee to head for Washington...Now ,Lee's Plan on day 3 actually had a chance now that Lee had got in contact with General Jeb Staurt...Lee's Plan was for General Pickett to charge towards the Union lines...His forces actually made it to the Union lines...
---------But The Hero of Gettysburg...Golden Boy Custer,yes Lucky Custer himself...Had disobeyed his orders and Headed for the battle that was taking place at Gettysburg...Custer's Calvary caught General JeB Staurt's Calvary in the flank...As Staurt's men were still in a traveling line and not in battle mode... Custer charged Staurt four times finally breaking Staurt's line and chasing Staurt away from Gettysburg..... Because you see,Staurt was to get behind the Union and attack them from the rear,as Pickett attacked,charged from the front.... squashing the Union forces At Gettysburg...It would have worked...If Custer wasn't an officer who did what he wanted,he finished last in his class at West point,because of his unruly ways....He would end up with an arrow in his back later on,do do it...But none the less...Lee's Plan almost worked,if not for a disobedient Custer... :D
.... O:) ConfederateSS.out(The Blue and Silver Rebellion).... O:)
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Re: The USA Left led Military ,worst Defeat/blunder in 200 y

Postby DirtyDishSoap on Tue Aug 31, 2021 2:47 pm

MAH EYEZ!!!
Symmetry wrote:
The ram wrote:
Symmetry wrote:Ok, so some stuff goes over your head?


No not here anyway. He never said they were forced.


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Re: The USA Left led Military ,worst Defeat/blunder in 200 y

Postby ConfederateSS on Tue Aug 31, 2021 3:02 pm

DirtyDishSoap wrote:MAH EYEZ!!!

---------------HAVE SEEN THE GLORY OF THE COMING OF THE LORD...HIS TRUTH IS MARCHING ON :!: :!: :!: :D :D :D :D :D ... O:) ConfederateSS.out!(The Blue and Silver Rebellion)... O:)
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Re: The USA Left led Military ,worst Defeat/blunder in 200 y

Postby HitRed on Tue Aug 31, 2021 6:01 pm

Most people have a favorite Civil War battle, campaign or general. I have a favorite week.

July 3rd, 1863 Gettysburg ends (Confederate losses 23,000ā€“28,000)
July 4th, 1863 Vicksburg surrenders (Confederate losses 32,697 total)
July 9th, 1863 Port Hudson surrenders (Confederate losses 7,500)
"The Father of Waters again goes unvexed to the sea." - Abraham Lincoln

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Re: The USA Left led Military ,worst Defeat/blunder in 200 y

Postby DirtyDishSoap on Tue Aug 31, 2021 6:21 pm

I have one too.

The union winning.
Symmetry wrote:
The ram wrote:
Symmetry wrote:Ok, so some stuff goes over your head?


No not here anyway. He never said they were forced.


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Re: The USA Left led Military ,worst Defeat/blunder in 200 y

Postby jusplay4fun on Tue Aug 31, 2021 6:43 pm

ConfSS,

Read before you react, please. Here is what I said (quoted, below, JUST 4 YOU, ConfSS). Basically, there were some key mistakes made by Lee, but the BIGGEST was ordering Pickett's Charge. Yes, I am aware of the facts about Southern troops looking for shoes and other details at the start of the battle.

I TOURED the actual battlefield at Gettysburg. Have you done so? I have also visited Malvern Hill and Petersburg and Pamplin Park, all near Richmond. Have you?

I may not have read LOTS on each battle, BUT I have read LOTS. And I have read that, contrary to the "Lost Cause" that General Lee made mistakes. And some of those mistakes were due to his "hubris" about war and his troops and himself.

Prior to Gettysburg, Robert E. Lee had established a reputation as an almost invincible general, achieving stunning victories against superior numbersā€”although usually at the cost of high casualties to his armyā€”during the Seven Days, the Northern Virginia Campaign (including the Second Battle of Bull Run), Fredericksburg, and Chancellorsville. Only the Maryland Campaign, with its tactically inconclusive Battle of Antietam, had been less than successful. Therefore, historians[who?] have attempted to explain how Lee's winning streak was interrupted so dramatically at Gettysburg.[citation needed] Although the issue is tainted by attempts to portray history and Lee's reputation in a manner supporting different partisan goals, the major factors in Lee's loss arguably can be attributed to: (1) his overconfidence in the invincibility of his men; (2) the performance of his subordinates, and his management thereof; (3) his failing health; and, (4) the performance of his opponent, George G. Meade, and the Army of the Potomac.

Throughout the campaign, Lee was influenced by the belief that his men were invincible; most of Lee's experiences with the Army of Northern Virginia had convinced him of this, including the great victory at Chancellorsville in early May and the rout of the Union troops at Gettysburg on July 1. Since morale plays an important role in military victory when other factors are equal, Lee did not want to dampen his army's desire to fight and resisted suggestions, principally by Longstreet, to withdraw from the recently captured Gettysburg to select a ground more favorable to his army. War correspondent Peter W. Alexander wrote that Lee "acted, probably, under the impression that his troops were able to carry any position however formidable. If such was the case, he committed an error, such however as the ablest commanders will sometimes fall into." Lee himself concurred with this judgment, writing to President Davis, "No blame can be attached to the army for its failure to accomplish what was projected by me, nor should it be censured for the unreasonable expectations of the publicā€”I am alone to blame, in perhaps expecting too much of its prowess and valor."[111]

The most controversial assessments of the battle involve the performance of Lee's subordinates. The dominant theme of the Lost Cause writers and many other historians is that Lee's senior generals failed him in crucial ways, directly causing the loss of the battle; the alternative viewpoint is that Lee did not manage his subordinates adequately, and did not thereby compensate for their shortcomings.[112]


jusplay4fun wrote:in Response to ConfederateSS:

Yes, mistakes by the Military Leader make a battle or military action a HUGE BLUNDER.

I think that most of us agree that Custer blunders led to his defeat and death at Little Bighorn.

I will support my earlier contention that General Robert E. Lee blundered at Gettysburg.

In summary, Gettysburg demonstrated all of Leeā€™s weaknesses. He initiated an unnecessary strategic offensive that, because of his armyā€™s inevitable return to Virginia, would be perceived as a retreat and thus a defeat. He rejected alternative deployments of Longstreetā€™s corps that might have avoided or mitigated critical losses of the Mississippi River (including Vicksburg and then Port Hudson, Louisiana) or middle and southeastern Tennessee (including Chattanooga). His tactics were inexcusably and fatally aggressive on the second and third days at Gettysburg, he failed to take charge of the battlefield on any of the three days, his battle-plans were ineffective, and his orders (especially to Stuart and Ewell) were vague and too discretionary. Gettysburg indeed was Lee at his worst.
https://www.historyonthenet.com/picketts-charge

And ConfSS, before replying, based on the one quote above, please read the entire article I posted above.

I also read that Lee had too much confidence in the ability of his troops to win any and all battles. He was overconfident of his Leadership and his inner circle and of his troops. (General Longstreet did advise AGAINST Pickett's Charge; that is well documented.)

Also, from the SAME source:
British Colonel Arthur Fremantle, an observer at Gettysburg and elsewhere, advised Lee concerning the flaws of Leeā€™s aggressiveness: ā€œDonā€™t you see your system feeds upon itself? You cannot fill the places of these men. Your troops do wonders, but every time at a cost you cannot afford.ā€ Later, Leeā€™s own General D. H. Hill described the folly of the Army of Northern Virginiaā€™s penchant for the tactical offensive:

We were very lavish of blood in those days, and it was thought to be a very great thing to charge a battery of artillery or an earth-work lined with infantry. . . . The attacks on the Beaver Dam intrenchments, on the heights of Malvern Hill, at Gettysburg, etc., were all grand, but of exactly the kind of grandeur which the South could not afford.

All of the attacks mentioned by Hill had been personally ordered by Lee.
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Re: The USA Left led Military ,worst Defeat/blunder in 200 y

Postby Dukasaur on Tue Aug 31, 2021 7:05 pm

That's nothing compared to all the innocent fish killed by all the depth charges that you spewed into the sea during WWII, but nobody talks about that.
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Re: The USA Left led Military ,worst Defeat/blunder in 200 y

Postby HitRed on Tue Aug 31, 2021 7:19 pm

Nazi fish. Sink-ā€™em fast.
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Re: The USA Left led Military ,worst Defeat/blunder in 200 y

Postby Dukasaur on Tue Aug 31, 2021 7:20 pm

You're an officer and a gentleman.
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Re: The USA Left led Military ,worst Defeat/blunder in 200 y

Postby ConfederateSS on Tue Aug 31, 2021 7:36 pm

----Lee shouldn't of let himself get caught up in Gettysburg...Yes,that was his mistake...He let events carry his thinking,maybe because he was North of the mason Dixon line and tried to prove himself to the North?..But he almost pulled it off ,if not for Custer,is what I am saying and History....
-----------As for a British observer ...I don't care what a Brit has to say....There was another War,Lee was involved in...THE MEXICAN AMERICAN WAR....There was another smart ass Brit...The Duke of Wellington...Laughed at American commanders for trying to invade..Veracruz and march to Mexico City....Guess what..Duke..it work...Where outside the city,a young Lt.Lee would lead a small force by the lava things outside the city..And captured Mex,Gen.Apua's Army ,as Santa Anna,refused to help Apua...
-------------As To Lee you are right he was winning all his battles up until then...He was playing a "GO" style strategy like Giap in Vietnam.....As people in the North were getting sick of all the defeats and loses...much like Vietnam...causulties....Lee at Gettysburg...turn to a "Chess" style strategy ,which Gen. Wes Moreland was using against Giap in Vietnam...You see how well that worked out for Lee at Gettsburg and Moreland in Vietnam...THAT WAS LEE'S MISTAKE ,CHANGING HIS STRATEGY THINKING,ONCE AGAIN,i THINK IT WAS BECAUSE ,HE WASN'T FIGHTING ON SOUTHERN SOIL AND HAD TO PROVE SOMETHING...
... O:) ConfederateSS,out!(The Blue and Silver Rebellion)... O:)
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Re: The USA Left led Military ,worst Defeat/blunder in 200 y

Postby jusplay4fun on Tue Aug 31, 2021 8:45 pm

ConfederateSS wrote:----Lee shouldn't of let himself get caught up in Gettysburg...Yes,that was his mistake...He let events carry his thinking,maybe because he was North of the mason Dixon line and tried to prove himself to the North?..But he almost pulled it off ,if not for Custer,is what I am saying and History....
-----------As for a British observer ...I don't care what a Brit has to say....There was another War,Lee was involved in...THE MEXICAN AMERICAN WAR....There was another smart ass Brit...The Duke of Wellington...Laughed at American commanders for trying to invade..Veracruz and march to Mexico City....Guess what..Duke..it work...Where outside the city,a young Lt.Lee would lead a small force by the lava things outside the city..And captured Mex,Gen.Apua's Army ,as Santa Anna,refused to help Apua...
-------------As To Lee you are right he was winning all his battles up until then...He was playing a "GO" style strategy like Giap in Vietnam.....As people in the North were getting sick of all the defeats and loses...much like Vietnam...causulties....Lee at Gettysburg...turn to a "Chess" style strategy ,which Gen. Wes Moreland was using against Giap in Vietnam...You see how well that worked out for Lee at Gettsburg and Moreland in Vietnam...THAT WAS LEE'S MISTAKE ,CHANGING HIS STRATEGY THINKING,ONCE AGAIN,i THINK IT WAS BECAUSE ,HE WASN'T FIGHTING ON SOUTHERN SOIL AND HAD TO PROVE SOMETHING...
... O:) ConfederateSS,out!(The Blue and Silver Rebellion)... O:)


His mistake and NOT a BLUNDER??

WoW, LOOK at ALL the RED squiggle lines showing grammatical and spelling errors by ConfSS. Do you ever look to proofread and fix the errors, ConfSS?
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Re: The USA Left led Military ,worst Defeat/blunder in 200 y

Postby DirtyDishSoap on Tue Aug 31, 2021 9:41 pm

More amazed on how you can read it, much less argue it.

Be real, I'm not asking you to make sense of it or even argue, but a man that has been typing like this for years, do you really enjoy wasting that much time and effort into getting in an argument with?
Symmetry wrote:
The ram wrote:
Symmetry wrote:Ok, so some stuff goes over your head?


No not here anyway. He never said they were forced.


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Re: The USA Left led Military ,worst Defeat/blunder in 200 y

Postby jusplay4fun on Wed Sep 01, 2021 5:25 am

I enjoy pondering ideas. How those ideas are delivered are not as important as the ideas presented, however badly that may be.

I will add that those ideas must be of importance and interest to me. Most ideas in this Forum are not worth my time to even read.
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Re: The USA Left led Military ,worst Defeat/blunder in 200 y

Postby DirtyDishSoap on Wed Sep 01, 2021 1:07 pm

Most ideas aren't worth reading...But ConfedSS is?

I think you just enjoying debating.
Symmetry wrote:
The ram wrote:
Symmetry wrote:Ok, so some stuff goes over your head?


No not here anyway. He never said they were forced.


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Re: The USA Left led Military ,worst Defeat/blunder in 200 y

Postby mookiemcgee on Wed Sep 01, 2021 1:48 pm

Ponder this idea... Trump met with the Taliban at Camp David and completely undermined the almost 20 years we spent trying to 'build up' and afgan gov't. I've always been of the opinion we occupied another country who's values are antithetical to our own and that this would always end badly regardless of what party or president actually did the pulling out. But this meeting, and subsequent 'agreement' made with the taliban was America admitting the Afgan Gov't was a failure and would collapse as soon as america pulled out, and signaled the point at which America became 100% committed to withdrawl. The pull out was ugly, and could have been done better, but it was always gonna be ugly... but piling on that 'the left' is responsible for 'the worst defeat in 200 years' is a farce. America is one country, and making this into a party specific political issue is bad for America.
saxitoxin wrote:deaths among the unvaccinated are higher.
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Re: The USA Left led Military ,worst Defeat/blunder in 200 y

Postby HitRed on Wed Sep 01, 2021 1:53 pm

CNN is one country. Fox is another.
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Re: The USA Left led Military ,worst Defeat/blunder in 200 y

Postby mookiemcgee on Wed Sep 01, 2021 2:03 pm

HitRed wrote:CNN is one country. Fox is another.



Manifesting the destiny you want Hitred!
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Re: The USA Left led Military ,worst Defeat/blunder in 200 y

Postby HitRed on Wed Sep 01, 2021 2:10 pm

Tribalism is always bad. There is truth though and true leadership. People rising above the me me me mentality. God's way is the only way forward, even if no one cares.
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Re: The USA Left led Military ,worst Defeat/blunder in 200 y

Postby DirtyDishSoap on Wed Sep 01, 2021 2:11 pm

mookiemcgee wrote:Ponder this idea... Trump met with the Taliban at Camp David and completely undermined the almost 20 years we spent trying to 'build up' and afgan gov't. I've always been of the opinion we occupied another country who's values are antithetical to our own and that this would always end badly regardless of what party or president actually did the pulling out. But this meeting, and subsequent 'agreement' made with the taliban was America admitting the Afgan Gov't was a failure and would collapse as soon as america pulled out, and signaled the point at which America became 100% committed to withdrawl. The pull out was ugly, and could have been done better, but it was always gonna be ugly... but piling on that 'the left' is responsible for 'the worst defeat in 200 years' is a farce. America is one country, and making this into a party specific political issue is bad for America.

I think I need to reiterate this:

This was never a war, or at least a war that was completely physical. The physical war died well over a decade ago. It became a political war. A war of ideas and governance. 20 years spent vs a lifetime culture under Sharia Law? It should have been a no brainer to begin with.

We can win any physical war and just beat people into submission. Hearts and minds and politics/policies? We lose immediately.
Symmetry wrote:
The ram wrote:
Symmetry wrote:Ok, so some stuff goes over your head?


No not here anyway. He never said they were forced.


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Re: The USA Left led Military ,worst Defeat/blunder in 200 y

Postby HitRed on Wed Sep 01, 2021 3:01 pm

mookiemcgee wrote:The pull out was ugly, and could have been done better, but it was always gonna be ugly...


5Ps: Prior preparation prevents poor performance.
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Re: The USA Left led Military ,worst Defeat/blunder in 200 y

Postby jusplay4fun on Wed Sep 01, 2021 4:06 pm

DirtyDishSoap wrote:Most ideas aren't worth reading...But ConfedSS is?

I think you just enjoying debating.


I like History; THIS is History.

transgender athletes? really?

Baby sues Nirvana? same response

Voting Lib/Trudeau is Immoral? I do not care
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