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Map Health: An Addition to Map Stats (Second Beta)

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Map Health: An Addition to Map Stats (Second Beta)

Postby TaCktiX on Sun May 11, 2008 10:26 pm

DISCLAIMER: Perfect Health is defined as a map moving in the most efficient manner possible through the Foundry process. This requires a near-flawless interplay of the map creator, commenters, and Cartography Assistants, and is very rare. Perfect Health does NOT define/quantify the quality, gameplay style, or graphics of any particular map.

Map Health

Axiom: Post count DOES NOT MATTER, only Post rate and Post content.

The Measured Statistics:
Six criteria from the Map Stats are best for applying the stages to measurable data.
Posts/day: A map without consistent posts is a map heading into the Furnace, but one with too many makes it hard for a mapmaker to respond to feedback with a pertinent update.
Posts/day since last Revision: If a revision is made, there should be a spike in feedback to that revision. Lack of such is not healthy. Too much posting after a revision has the same effect as too much posting period.
Creator percentage: A map creator can both strangle or starve his/her own map, by posting too much or too little on it. Maps with more than one creator will have more posting by the creators as they muddle through ideas together, and this is accounted for (Creators percentage).
Cartography Assistant percentage: The assistants are necessary to get stamps, and to provide quality feedback that helps a mapmaker progress his map. Without C.A. support, a map is doomed, but with too much support, other commenters tend to be ignored in favor of the perceived "better" feedback of C.A.'s.
Feedback percentage: Without a consistent amount of feedback, a map dies. Too much feedback, however, means either the mapmaker isn't addressing the concerns of people, or people are arguing over conflicting viewpoints while a mapmaker tries to please both sides.
Support percentage: Unregulars see a map and leave bit-part "I like it" support. Regulars also advocate a map moving forward in the Foundry, asking about upcoming updates and petitioning for stamps. Too little support and a map dies, too much and the map isn't getting enough feedback.

Criteria Health:
For each stage, each of the criteria has an ideal range for perfect health. Stages I and VIII the Map Stats do not cover, so I have not defined an ideal range for those stages' criteria. Above and below each ideal range are 4 levels of deviation.

Ideal Range: in Good health
+10%/-10%: in Mediocre health
+25%/-25%: In Marginal health
+50%/-50%: In Terminal health
-75%: In Critical health (+75% is downright ridiculous for any of the criteria, and thus is not included)

Ideal Ranges and their Deviation:

DISCLAIMER: These values are not final and any input on how to edit the ideal range to be more correct is appreciated

The deviation values are "threshold" values. On the negative end, any lower puts it in the deviation below the value's deviation. On the positive end, any higher puts it in the deviation above the value's deviation.
Stage II:
Image
Stage III:
Image
Stage IV:
Image
Stage V:
Image
Stage VI:
Image
Stage VII:
Image

Overall Health:
A map's overall health is the sum of its criteria parts. Each criteria contributes the following points (of 30 possible) if in a certain range:
Good health (Ideal range): 0
Mediocre health (-10%/+10%): 1
Marginal health (-25%/+25%): 2
Terminal health (-50%/+50%): 3
Critical health (-75%): 5

Overall health has seven ranges, varying over the 30 possible component points:
Perfect: 0
Excellent: 1-4
Good: 5-9
Mediocre: 10-14
Marginal: 15-19
Critical: 20-25
Dead: 26-30

Last Notes:
There are two special cases that Overall Map Health breaks on: Revamps (which technically start at Stage IV), and maps created by C.A.'s. I need some help modifying the appropriate criteria ranges for these special cases so that maps that are actually doing fairly well aren't landing with weird things like too little support or not enough C.A. input.
Last edited by TaCktiX on Fri May 16, 2008 1:47 am, edited 7 times in total.
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Re: Map Health: An Addition to Map Stats

Postby TaCktiX on Sun May 11, 2008 10:27 pm

Overall map health as of the 10th of May, 2008

Advanced Ideas (Stage II):
Switzerland: Excellent (1 point, Mediocre Feedback percentage)
London: Mediocre (10 points, Critical posts/day since last revision, Marginal Creator percentage, Terminal Support percentage)
Cyprus: Good (8 points, Marginal posts/day since last revision, Terminal C.A. percentage, Terminal Support percentage)
Madagascar: Mediocre (11 points, Critical posts/day since last revision, Marginal Creator percentage, Mediocre Feedback percentage, Terminal Support percentage)

Active Foundry (Stage III):
Ancient Japan: Good (9 points, Critical posts/day since last revision, Terminal C.A. percentage, Mediocre Feedback percentage)
Archipelago: Mediocre (11 points, Marginal posts/day since last revision, Terminal Creators percentage, Mediocre Feedback percentage, Terminal Support percentage)
Dark Age Britain: Mediocre (13 points, Terminal posts/day, Terminal posts/day since last revision, Terminal C.A. percentage, Mediocre Feedback percentage, Terminal Support percentage)
Empire Builder: Good (8 points, Terminal posts/day since last revision, Marginal Creator percentage, Mediocre C.A. percentage, Marginal Support percentage)
Gulf of St. Lawrence: Mediocre (12 points, Critical posts/day since last revision, Mediocre Creators percentage, Terminal C.A. percentage, Terminal Support percentage)
Haiti: Mediocre (13 points, Critical posts/day since last revision, Marginal Creator percentage, Terminal C.A. percentage, Terminal Support percentage)
Holy Roman Empire: Marginal (15 points, Critical posts/day, Critical posts/day since last revision, Mediocre Creators percentage, Mediocre C.A. percentage, Terminal Support percentage)
Imperium Romanum: Mediocre (12 points, Marginal posts/day since last revision, Mediocre Creator percentage, Mediocre C.A. percentage, Terminal Feedback percentage, Terminal Support percentage)
Indian Subcontinent: Mediocre (12 points, Marginal posts/day, Critical posts/day since last revision, Mediocre Creator percentage, Terminal C.A. percentage, Mediocre Feedback percentage)
Lower Egypt: Mediocre (13 points, Critical posts/day since last revision, Marginal Creator percentage, Terminal C.A. percentage, Terminal Support percentage)
Luxembourg: Mediocre (7 points, Mediocre posts/day, Marginal posts/day since last revision, Mediocre Feedback percentage, Terminal Support percentage)
Mexico: Critical (20 points, Critical posts/day, Critical posts/day since last revision, Terminal Creator percentage, Terminal C.A percentage, Mediocre Feedback percentage, Terminal Support percentage)
New Europe: Mediocre (11 points, Critical posts/day since last revision, Marginal Creator percentage, Terminal C.A. percentage, Mediocre Feedback percentage)
Oasis: Mediocre (11 points, Mediocre posts/day, Marginal Creator percentage, Terminal C.A. percentage, Mediocre Feedback percentage, Terminal Support percentage)
Periodic Madness: Mediocre (10 points, Critical posts/day since last revision, Marginal Feedback percentage, Terminal Support percentage)
Poker Map: Mediocre (11 points, Critical posts/day, Marginal posts/day since last revision, Mediocre Feedback percentage, Terminal Support percentage)
San Marino: Marginal (17 points, Terminal posts/day, Critical posts/day since last revision, Marginal Creator percentage, Terminal C.A. percentage, Mediocre Feedback percentage, Terminal Support percentage)
Sydney Metro: Mediocre (11 points, Terminal posts/day since last revision, Mediocre Creator percentage, Terminal C.A. percentage, Mediocre Feedback percentage, Terminal Support percentage)
The Citadel: Marginal (15 points, Terminal posts/day, Critical posts/day since last revision, Marginal C.A. percentage, Marginal Feedback percentage, Terminal Support percentage)
The CUBE: Marginal (19 points, Critical posts/day since last revision, Marginal Creators percentage, Terminal C.A. percentage, Terminal Feedback percentage, Terminal Support percentage)
Upper Egypt: Mediocre (11 points, Critical posts/day since last revision, Marginal Creator percentage, Terminal C.A. percentage, Terminal Support percentage)

Active Foundry (Stage IV):
Feudal War Revamp: Mediocre (14 points, Marginal posts/day, Critical posts/day since last revision, Terminal C.A. percentage, Marginal Feedback percentage)
Germany Revamp: Mediocre (10 points, Terminal posts/day, Terminal posts/day since last revision, Marginal C.A. percentage, Marginal Support percentage)
Maze Craze: Perfect

Active Foundry (Stage V):
Supermax: Prison Riot: Good (7 points, Mediocre posts/day, Terminal posts/day since last revision, Mediocre Creator percentage, Marginal Feedback percentage)
Treasures of Galapagos: Good (5 points, Terminal Creator percentage, Marginal Support percentage)

Active Foundry (Stage VI):
Conqueropoly: Good (6 points, Terminal Creators percentage, Terminal Feedback percentage)

Final Forge (Stage VI):
CC City Mogul: Good (6 points, Marginal posts/day since last revision, Marginal Creator percentage, Mediocre C.A. percentage, Terminal Feedback percentage)
High Seas: Excellent (4 points, Mediocre posts/day, Marginal C.A. percentage, Mediocre Support percentage)
Iceland: Good (5 points, Marginal posts/day since last revision, Mediocre C.A. percentage, Marginal Support percentage)
Operation Drug War: Good (9 points, Terminal posts/day, Terminal C.A. percentage, Marginal Feedback percentage, Mediocre Support percentage)

Final Forge (Stage VII):
British Isles Revamp: Good (8 points, Critical C.A. percentage, Mediocre Feedback percentage, Marginal Support percentage)
The Texan Wars: Good (7 points, Marginal posts/day, Marginal Creator percentage, Terminal C.A. percentage)
Last edited by TaCktiX on Mon May 12, 2008 12:45 pm, edited 2 times in total.
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Re: Map Health: An Addition to Map Stats (First Beta)

Postby ZeakCytho on Sun May 11, 2008 11:34 pm

Wow, amazing work went into this. Three cheers for Tac! =D> =D> =D>

Now, it strikes me that it's too hard to fall into the "good" health range. I only count 4 that are there; five if you count the one perfect in that as well. It seems to me that good health should be something more easily achieved. So, I propose the following groups:

Overall health ranges, 7 total:
Perfect: 0
Excellent: 1-4
Good: 5-9
Mediocre: 10-15
Terminal: 16-19
Critical: 20-25
Dead: 26-30

As you see, I added one group (excellent) and removed another (marginal), and altered the point-ranged to fit those two. I think these new point numbers more accurately reflect the actual health of a map.

As for the rest, I think you did a marvelous job. I honestly don't see anything wrong with the way you've split the stages, assigned values, decided on ideal ranges, etc. Job well done!
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Re: Map Health: An Addition to Map Stats (First Beta)

Postby Elijah S on Mon May 12, 2008 12:40 am

The time and effort that has gone into this is very commendable... Hats off to you for that.
However, I have a couple concerns about this compilation of statistics and how it may adversely affect the efforts and morale of many mapmakers...
Bear in mind that none of my maps are involved, which I feel makes me unbiased in what I have to say...
First, I agree that the Foundry is badly in need of a more efficient manner of assisting cartos in the process of developing their ideas into playable maps. -My own experience left such a bitterness that I've all but completely abandoned working on my 2nd project. (I still dabble with it now and then, but not nearly with the determination and zeal with which I began my Civil War map)

In the past year it seems to me that mapmakers have become more involved in their own maps and promoting them, than when I first entered the Foundry. -I'm not saying this is a bad thing, as I think it's unreasonable to insist that their time be spent on anything other than their own projects.
The expectation, insistence even, that those who have a map in progress should take time to critique, praise, etc., other maps in order to gain input on their own is, IMHO, ridiculous...
It also creates an atmosphere where competitors often trash each other's work in order to better their own chances of moving through the process. -Let's face it, only so many maps are going to be quenched at a time.

The Foundry is cluttered with maps and the General Membership gets lost in here.

My suggestion (and I can already hear the responses) is that the Foundry receive a complete overhaul in the way it functions; Less politics; and movement through the stages approved by a committee of non-cartographers.

If someone presents a map which is well-planned, graphically sound, and in a state of being damned close to forge-ready, it seems to me that the statistics regarding amount of feedback, etc. don't encourage, but discourage the artist.
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Re: Map Health: An Addition to Map Stats (First Beta)

Postby DiM on Mon May 12, 2008 3:28 am

great idea. it looks awesome. i haven't checked actual numbers but i have a feeling they are a bit too drastic cause i see most maps are at mediocre or lower. with only a few good.

there might be several small problems that lead to this outcome. for example posts since last revision. the cc mogul map is complete. everybody seems to be pleased but for the last 1-2 weeks it has been as dead as a pig in the lion's den because of the xml. if it had the xml up and ready it would have probably been quenched along with the others.

i guess what i'm trying to say is that no amount of calculation will show us what maps are great and what aren't. yes it can help provide a more statistical view of the things but it should in no way be the sole factor n deciding if a map is worth continuing or not.
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Re: Map Health: An Addition to Map Stats (First Beta)

Postby ZeakCytho on Mon May 12, 2008 6:09 am

Elijah S wrote:If someone presents a map which is well-planned, graphically sound, and in a state of being damned close to forge-ready, it seems to me that the statistics regarding amount of feedback, etc. don't encourage, but discourage the artist.


QFT. It seems the more time that goes into planning a first draft, the longer it takes to get out of the Map Ideas forum, simply because less people will post suggestions of what to do because there is less to do overall. In comparison, a five minute sketch will generate pages of things to change and move along quite quickly. Hardly seems appropriate.

That being said, this thread isn't really the place for such complaints. I don't think a compilation of statistics and health-ratings is a part of the problem in any way.
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Re: Map Health: An Addition to Map Stats (First Beta)

Postby DiM on Mon May 12, 2008 6:58 am

ZeakCytho wrote:
Elijah S wrote:If someone presents a map which is well-planned, graphically sound, and in a state of being damned close to forge-ready, it seems to me that the statistics regarding amount of feedback, etc. don't encourage, but discourage the artist.


QFT. It seems the more time that goes into planning a first draft, the longer it takes to get out of the Map Ideas forum, simply because less people will post suggestions of what to do because there is less to do overall. In comparison, a five minute sketch will generate pages of things to change and move along quite quickly. Hardly seems appropriate.

That being said, this thread isn't really the place for such complaints. I don't think a compilation of statistics and health-ratings is a part of the problem in any way.


i strongly disagree with this. and the best example is AoR: Magic. the image presented as a first draft was already ready for final forge, the gameplay was done and throught the whole process only minor modifications were made as people had nothing or little to complain about. according to your theory it should have spent a long time in the foundry and it should have gotten little feedback. in reality the map gathered a lot of feedback and was forged in ~2 weeks and quenched in 3. also it went from ideas to main foundry in under 2 hours. the topic also had 537 replies, more than many other maps.

so it is possible, it all depends on how you direct the discussion and how often you respond to comments/post updates.

for example the aor:magic map went to main foundry in under 2 hours because i was online and responded to all comments and made 3 updates.
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Re: Map Health: An Addition to Map Stats (First Beta)

Postby RjBeals on Mon May 12, 2008 7:44 am

TaC - you truly are insane. You live in Charleston - go to the beach instead of compiling this data!

Seriously though, it's nice to have someone like you here in the foundry who is good at collecting data & running it through excel formulas. It's definitely interesting to see the final numbers. But.... I just don't think the results are worth all the effort you put into this. The foundry is constantly changing. Sometimes it is really active & sometimes it's the same 5 or 6 people posting and thats it. Plus, as mentioned above - it looks like most of your results lean towards mediocre.

In my case, there are times when I don't provide map updates for weeks. And because of that, comments/day & posts/day since last revision will be way down, which will bring my total score down. That doesn't mean my map isn't healthy - it just means that I move slower then some folks.

But - It will be interesting to hear what others have to say. I say, "Great work - but too many variables to prove conclusive"
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Re: Map Health: An Addition to Map Stats (First Beta)

Postby Kaplowitz on Mon May 12, 2008 9:12 am

Great work! QUENCH! :) :shock:

This should really help the CA's figure out which maps are doing well...and which arent.

And Switzerland has the second best score, only behind one of WM's maps 8-) :shock:
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Re: Map Health: An Addition to Map Stats (First Beta)

Postby TaCktiX on Mon May 12, 2008 12:36 pm

Apparently everyone missed this disclaimer:
TaCktiX wrote:DISCLAIMER: Perfect Health is defined as a map moving in the most efficient manner possible through the Foundry process. This requires a near-flawless interplay of the map creator, commenters, and Cartography Assistants, and is very rare. Perfect Health does NOT define/quantify the quality, gameplay style, or graphics of any particular map.


I know I posted a wall-of-text, but I thought putting it in bold and making the last sentence bigger than normal would be enough to call people's attention to it. Map Health is NOT meant to determine whether the map is a good idea or has the capacity to eventually be quenched. It means how efficiently a map is getting to quenching. From stage to stage, a map's health may change drastically as the Foundry takes a greater or lesser interest in it.

Really the health is a note to people who like the map "hey, here's what's going wrong with x map, help the mapmaker out". I have quantified problems that we all have seen with map topics (creator overspam or lack of presence, C.A. "pet projects", etc.). To illustrate, some maps that I like (namely, Lower and Upper Egypt) aren't doing the greatest, and seeing that it's mostly because no one's posted on cairns' latest changes, I guess I should mosey on over there and post. Shoot, half of cairns' posts are ones begging for comments, which is why his Creator percentage is so high.

Now about the Mediocre thing, I was a bit harsh with my terminology. I'm taking ZeakCytho's naming change suggestion and putting it to the stats (Excellent now for Ideal, Good for -10%/+10%). So you'll see 4 Excellent maps and a large number of Good maps.
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Re: Map Health: An Addition to Map Stats (Second Beta)

Postby gimil on Mon May 12, 2008 4:04 pm

I dont think concidering C.A. comments as part of the criteria is such a great idea. There could be a number of reasons why I dont comment in a map, it doesnt intrest me, the discussion/development is going along finely without my input etc

Generally when I comment I comment as a foundry memeber not as a C.A. the only time I comment as a C.A. is when I have something that really needs addressed before a stamp, which has been rare so far.

Just a point for you to consider :)
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Re: Map Health: An Addition to Map Stats (Second Beta)

Postby TaCktiX on Mon May 12, 2008 4:12 pm

Considering that more often maps have TOO MUCH C.A. input (relative to the current ideal range), I don't think the criterium should be dropped. I may need to adjust numbers, as over half of the maps presently in the Foundry have something "wrong" with their C.A. percentage.
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Re: Map Health: An Addition to Map Stats (Second Beta)

Postby InkL0sed on Mon May 12, 2008 4:14 pm

I honestly don't think this turned out well. Empire Builder gets a "Good" rating, but Oasis just gets a mediocre? How in the world is Empire Builder going through the Foundry more efficiently than Oasis?

EDIT: Or Ancient Japan, for that matter.
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Re: Map Health: An Addition to Map Stats (Second Beta)

Postby DiM on Mon May 12, 2008 4:20 pm

InkL0sed wrote:I honestly don't think this turned out well. Empire Builder gets a "Good" rating, but Oasis just gets a mediocre? How in the world is Empire Builder going through the Foundry more efficiently than Oasis?

EDIT: Or Ancient Japan, for that matter.



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Re: Map Health: An Addition to Map Stats (Second Beta)

Postby ZeakCytho on Mon May 12, 2008 4:24 pm

InkL0sed wrote:I honestly don't think this turned out well. Empire Builder gets a "Good" rating, but Oasis just gets a mediocre? How in the world is Empire Builder going through the Foundry more efficiently than Oasis?

EDIT: Or Ancient Japan, for that matter.


I speculate that Oasis' poorer rating is from wca's slow updates. I agree that Oasis should be "Good," though, and perhaps Empire Builder/Ancient Japan moved down to Mediocre. I'm not sure what changes should be made to the algorithm being used, though.
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Re: Map Health: An Addition to Map Stats (Second Beta)

Postby Herakilla on Mon May 12, 2008 4:25 pm

i like this! very specific requirements and shows exactly where the map is at a glance :) lots of work though! i dont envy you ;)
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Re: Map Health: An Addition to Map Stats (Second Beta)

Postby TaCktiX on Mon May 12, 2008 4:39 pm

One thing that the stats do not account for that would sink Ancient Japan in a heartbeat is how long time-wise the map has sat at a stage. I could start tracking that and add some hefty penalties for maps that have stayed in their current stage for entirely too long, but for that I'd need some input on how long a map should be at each stage.

Oasis is a killer good map, but really it is riddled with spam, me-too feedback, and wca doesn't have the time to keep up with the amount of posts he's getting. I also think the map is long overdue for a Gameplay stamp or serious consideration for such. A map having post behavior not like its stage will look like it's not doing as well as it could, stat-wise. If Oasis was Stage IV, it would have Good posts/day (0 points), Mediocre posts/day since last revision (1 point), Good Creator percentage (0 points), Mediocre C.A. percentage (1 point), Mediocre Feedback percentage (1 point), and maintain its Terminal Support percentage (3 points, it only goes within the range at Stage V). 6 points, instead of 11, a Good map instead of a Mediocre one. Adverse stats on a map everyone believes is doing well indicates the map is likely being held back from the next stage.

That said, I need some people to look at the ideal ranges and suggest improvements. The overall system is solid as a rock, but the ideal ranges I subjectively decided based on my description of the stages and trends I observed while compiling the Map Stats. I need some input on the ideal ranges to make this more accurate.

P.S., parts where people can help are emboldened.
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Re: Map Health: An Addition to Map Stats (Second Beta)

Postby AndyDufresne on Mon May 12, 2008 11:43 pm

that I'd need some input on how long a map should be at each stage.
It is quite variable, depending on the content and graphics of the map, how developed or undeveloped the map is when first presented, the time of year (seasons actually do have an effect on feedback), cartographer free time, etc.


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Re: Map Health: An Addition to Map Stats (Second Beta)

Postby TaCktiX on Tue May 13, 2008 12:36 am

Yeah, numbers can't account for that much variance. Ditching that idea...

I think I'm going to add Critical on the other end of the scale as well, because there are a lot of maps that have excessively too much of some things (namely, C.A.'s have tried to help Unit_2 with Ancient Japan, but it hasn't caught). I'll make that change and see if it makes a difference on some maps.
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Re: Map Health: An Addition to Map Stats (Second Beta)

Postby t-o-m on Fri May 16, 2008 3:07 pm

some updates from the map ideas:

madagascar and switzerland have been moved to main foundry - i dont think that madagascar is mediorce anymore - ive started it back up again and the updates are going up, london map has been taken down from sticky - as a request to gimil and its been done!
and i think theres some more stickies in map ideas...
EDIT:
also there doesnt seem to be v much going on with Cyprus in the map ideas atm - so that might want to be moved off good but i havnt checked it v much l8ly
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Re: Map Health: An Addition to Map Stats (Second Beta)

Postby TaCktiX on Fri May 16, 2008 3:28 pm

I'll update this with the May 16th statistics later today, I didn't do it last night because I was bone tired by the time I finished typing up the raw stats.
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Re: Map Health: An Addition to Map Stats (Second Beta)

Postby hulmey on Fri May 16, 2008 3:31 pm

Nice idea and thanks for your hard work but stats just lie.
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Re: Map Health: An Addition to Map Stats (Second Beta)

Postby gimil on Fri May 16, 2008 4:25 pm

hulmey wrote:Nice idea and thanks for your hard work but stats just lie.


Yet another excellent contribution by humley =D>



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Re: Map Health: An Addition to Map Stats (Second Beta)

Postby TaCktiX on Fri May 16, 2008 4:54 pm

FYI, along with my upcoming update is a change to the ranges. I've adjusted them so that more maps fall into Good/Mediocre instead of Mediocre/Marginal. I consider the Third Beta to address everything except Revamps and C.A.-created maps, which will need different ranges in Support (revamps get a disproportionate lot of it) and C.A. percentage (C.A.-created maps have a tendency to get less attention from C.A.'s, since one of them is missing).
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Re: Map Health: An Addition to Map Stats (Second Beta)

Postby MrBenn on Fri May 16, 2008 6:25 pm

Tacktix, you've obviously put a lot of work into these figures, but I'm not convinced that the number of posts/day should really factor so highly - it will only encourage spamming in threads (of which there is plenty already).

Additionally, RJ alluded to the amount of time a mapmaker has... things at home have been pretty hectic recently, and map-making is one of the lowest priority things in my life (compared to working, eating, children's birthdays, getting the car fixed, etc.). I'm not sure that a stat that says my development is 'Mediocre' is particularly inspiring! While I understand the sentiment behind these statistics, I'm sure there must be a better way of judging this...
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