Moderator: Community Team
drunkmonkey wrote:I honestly wonder why anyone becomes a mod on this site. You're the whiniest bunch of players imaginable.
Ron Burgundy wrote:Why don't you go back to your home on Whore Island?
JoshyBoy wrote:I fail to see why you continue to pursue this topic. Do you not think lackattack is aware of these ideas, especially when this one is the most dominant in the suggestions forum? The topic here is far too broad with soo many factors and possibilities, and what makes it worse is your attempted intimidation of others and your multiple consecutive posts.
drunkmonkey wrote:I honestly wonder why anyone becomes a mod on this site. You're the whiniest bunch of players imaginable.
Ron Burgundy wrote:Why don't you go back to your home on Whore Island?
Queen_Herpes wrote:striving to solve the problem of 505438 accounts, but only 21664 actives.
Queen_Herpes wrote:Support from 36 members.
Posters against: 17.
Robinette wrote:Kaskavel wrote:Seriously. Who is the female conqueror of CC?
Depends on what metric you use...
The coolest is squishyg
Queen_Herpes wrote:This is a continuation of the concerned debate regarding a suggestion to increase the number of games that new recruits are limited to on conquerclub from 5 to 16.
squishyg wrote:Folks, if you don't like an idea, say so once and move on. Repeatedly coming by to voice your dissent only makes the idea more buzz-worthy. It is also understandably frustrating for the OP.
By all means, offer points of concern and constructive criticism for the idea (more on that in a minute), but there's no need to keep stopping by simply to say, "no sir, i don't like it".
That being said, QH, I appreciate your ideas for the site. I do also see a trend of you not taking constructive criticism well. Feedback is a great thing, no matter if its positive or negative. Naturally, you are within your right to demand courtesy, but please make sure you always return it.
I want everyone to elevate the level of discourse here.
respectfully, squishy
PLAYER57832 wrote:I believe it is the latter, including changes concerning which order maps are played in.Queen_Herpes wrote:This is a continuation of the concerned debate regarding a suggestion to increase the number of games that new recruits are limited to on conquerclub from 5 to 16.
New recruits who are premium can now play more than 5 maps. Or are you suggesting that the title "newbie" be extended to 16 games?
Queen_Herpes wrote:
*Attempting to solve the problem of 372895 user accounts but only 19183 active members. (November, 2009) 5.144%
*Still attempting to solve the problem of 432102 user accounts but only 19679 active members. (June, 2010) 4.554%
*Still trying to solve the problem of 442051 users but only 19350 actives. (August, 2010) 4.377%
*Still striving to solve the problem of 505438 accounts, but only 21664 actives. (February, 2011) 4.286%
Queen_Herpes wrote:
That said, CC is always looking for ways to improve.
Abstract
In their first games, New Players (Noobs, Newbies, New Recruits) won't understand the complexities of the exceptional and varied maps and game options we enjoy on Conquer Club. The New Player is farmed, ignored by the system, and left to fend for himself/herself
OK, you start here with a statement of fact "the likelihood that a new player will continue".."is low". However, you have not accurately addressed why this happens. The most basic reason is that a lot of people will come to any site like this, see it and just not stay. I don't know what the retention rate is for this site compared to others any longer, but I do recall seeing some statistics a while ago that indicated it was pretty comparable to other sites. 'Queen_Herpes wrote: The likelihood that a new player will continue actively visiting ConquerClub under the current structure is not theoretically, but actually low. The purpose of this suggestion is to positively affect the retention rate by means of increasing user enjoyment. Some ancillary benefits are a by-product of this suggestion.
Agreed.Queen_Herpes wrote:
Introduction
The site does not contain enough information about Maps, Options, Gameplay and Strategy as Data on the site. While some comments and discussions contain information about strategy and the maps, there is a vacuum of hard data available to browsers or new players.
Queen_Herpes wrote:
This recommendation offers a reasonably achievable goal: participate in X games, unlock this cool thing; participate in X more games, unlock these other cool things; etc. A goal of this suggestion is to allow new Recruits to experience this great game with basic, beginner, understandable, game options that don’t give an unfair advantage to seasoned players.
Not sure this is true at all. I learned a lot by playing folks like Blitzaholic and such early on. To the extent it is a problem, it is not just that older folks are beating newer folks, its that they are being rude about it. However, for every rude player, you find plenty of decent players. And, you find a lot of newbies who, well seem rather spoiled poor sports and who this site could just as well do without.Queen_Herpes wrote:
New recruits are often cherry-picked by veterans--an experience that cannot be enjoyable for the new recruit.
Queen_Herpes wrote:
Look at where this site is going! We are getting more and more game options. We are getting more and more maps. The foundry is buzzing with activity and commentary. There is an ever-increasing list of add-ons like “clickable maps” and “maprank.” All of these things are great! For players who have been here for a long time, these changes have come about over time, slowly. Long-time players have had the opportunity to learn each aspect of ConquerClub as they have come out. Rarely, if ever, has the site dumped a bunch of new game options and maps on the players all-at-once. Yet, we assume that new players will be able to “get it” and understand everything whence the entirety of the site is dumped upon them when they join!
A training program, sure, but that is not really what you described.Queen_Herpes wrote:
Where do you think this site will be in two years? At the current pace, I’m thinking 250 maps, and 20 game options (currently there are what, 10 Options?) I think 250 maps with 20 game options will be great for me and I look forward to it. I think it will be absolutely terrible for new players who join on November 7, 2011 if there isn’t a comprehensive training program (like mine…or another) to help them navigate the site and gameplay.
Queen_Herpes wrote:
The current “training” provides more opportunities for players to be upset and to leave the site. The Society of Cooks is a great idea, but dependent on meeting the right people at the right time and/or dependent upon good posts and responses in the Society of Cooks Forum and classrooms.
How, but forcing people to play just the maps you choose for them? I see those questions even from experienced players when they try a new map. Sometimes I feel like shouting "read the legend!" Sometimes I myself have that problem, because many new maps bring in new concepts and, well not every cartographer is adept at making a clear legend. So, I play and learn that way. You want to deny new recruits that chance, or rather, limit it to just the maps you decide are OK.Queen_Herpes wrote:
I certainly have played in games with options and on maps where I posted something like this in the game chat: “How did you just get all those armies?” Man, was that frustrating to “not know!” Imagine how frustrating that can be, and how quickly a user would exit the site. I think ConquerClub has a problem with enjoyment and retention, and that is what this suggestion speaks to!
Queen_Herpes wrote:
Concise description:
Post a link on the homepage to “MAPROOM”
Limit New Players to 25 “Level 0” Maps
Limit New Players to escalating or no spoils, chained, no fog, no manual (Sorry, Manual has fog for now and complicates things), no assassin.
Limit New Players to everyman for himself games and terminator
Unlock remaining maps after 16 completed games
Unlock remaining game options after 16 completed games
Provide a PM after completing 4, 8, 12, and 16 games which includes links to helpful information about what was unlocked
Players still receive an email after their first rating, first victory, first game, etc.
A New Recruit can circumvent this process by paying for Premium. Once Premium, all maps are unlocked, all options are unlocked. (PMs will still be sent.)
Queen_Herpes wrote:
Specifics:
Map Categories
Potential Names for each level: Level 0 - Beginner, Level 1 - Novice, Level - 2 Intermediate, Level 3 - Competitive, Level 4 - Advanced, Level 5 - Professional, Level 6 - Experimental
Unlock Level 0: Classic Shapes, Classic Art, Archipelago, Canada, Caribbean Islands, CCU, Circus Maximus, Conquer 4, Doodle Earth, France, Haiti, High Seas, Hong Kong, Iceland, Indochina, Ireland, Luxembourg, Madagascar, Middle East, Mongol Empire, Netherlands, Oceania, Portugal, Puget Sound, WWII Iwo Jima. (25)
Queen_Herpes wrote:
Unlock Level 1: Alexander’s Empire, Ancient Greece, Arctic, Australia, Brazil 2, British Isles 2, Cairns Metro, Discworld, Draknor - Level 1, Egypt: Lower, Egypt: Upper, Extreme Global Warming, Iberia, Land and Sea, Midgard, Midkemdil, Montreal, South America, U.S. Senate, USA, USA West, WWII Eastern Front. (22)
Queen_Herpes wrote:
Unlock Level 2: 8 Thoughts, Africa, Asia, BeNeLux, Chinese Checkers, Dust Bowl, Egypt: Nubia, Egypt: Valley of the Kings, Europe, France 1789, Gilgamesh, Great Lakes, Greenland, Philippines, San Marino, Soviet Union, Sydney Metro, Tamriel, Triple Alliance, USA New England, USA Rockies, USA Southeast, USA Southwest, WWI Ottoman Empire, WWII Australia. (25)
Unlock Level 3: American Civil War, Battle of Actium, Berlin 1961, Cairns Coral Coast, Castle Lands, Charleston, Crossword, Duck and Cover, Europa, Greater China, Halloween Hollows, Imperium Romanum, Indian Empire, Italy, King of the Mountains, Malta, North America, San Francisco, Scotland, Space, USA Great Lakes, USApocalypse, Wales, World 2.1, WWI Western Front. (25)
Unlock Level 4: Arms Race!, Conquer Man, D-Day: Omaha Beach, Eastern Hemisphere, Europe 1914, Feudal War, Holy Roman Empire, New World, NYC, Oasis, Pearl Harbor, Poker Club, Route 66, Texan Wars, The Citadel, Treasures of Galapagos, WWII Europe. (17)
Unlock Level 5: Age of Merchants, Age of Realms 1, Age of Realms 2, Age of Realms 3, Bamboo Jack, Battle for Iraq!, City Mogul, Forbidden City, Madness, Operation Drug War, Poison Rome, Prohibition Chicago, Rail Australia, Rail Europe, Rail USA, Siege!, Solar System, Supermax: Prison Riot!, Waterloo, WWII Ardennes, WWII Gazala. (21)
Unlock Level 6:
-The Random Map (1 map, and it is not really a map per se as much as it is an option to play from one of all the maps, ergo a player would need to have unlocked all the maps via the preceding Unlock Levels in order to use the Random Map function in its current iteration.)
-All Beta Maps (Currently (November 5, 2009) there are 6 Beta Maps available to play) (Beta maps would be ascribed a particular level once they come out of Beta and have achieved their “final forge, quench.”)
Queen_Herpes wrote:
Learning the Game and Learning about the Site
Seeing as a non-Premium can only play in (4) four games at a time, having only 25 maps to choose from for the first 10 games is really not a limitation nor would it be a detraction from the site
Queen_Herpes wrote:
Once a non-Premium completes 10 games, he/she has only played on a maximum of 10 of the maps. Most non-Premium New Recruits stick to the same maps anyways.
Queen_Herpes wrote:
A review of several players’ first 10 games shows that they played predominantly on the Classic Maps and the 23 other less-complicated maps listed in Level 0. Players who have been farmed, received assistance from the Society of Chefs, received assistance from a friend who introduced them to the site, or by apparent random selection have chosen 1 or 2 maps from outside of Level 0 for their first 10 games.
No, it does not.Queen_Herpes wrote:
My suggestion doesn’t help new players to find a benevolent player-mentor nor does it help the new player to find other players who are trying to learn.
Queen_Herpes wrote:
It does, however, create a pseudo-training regimen that is unbiased and serves to slowly and methodically introduce the new player to this great website on which we play.
Queen_Herpes wrote:While my recommendation doesn’t directly offer one-on-one or group assistance, each automatically issued PM sent throughout the process to the player will offer links to the Society of Cooks and other helpful, compassionate links within the website that will lead (directly or indirectly) to players who are willing to help. A key word just mentioned is “automatic.” The player will receive these PMs just as we all received PMs when we first joined. The administrators on this site won’t be spending additional time with player questions, in fact, they will likely spend less time. With additional codexes on the site, players looking for help can read about it (in the event that there isn’t a player or someone in the Society of Cooks available to help them.)
Queen_Herpes wrote:This will improve the following aspects of the site:
By listing the maps in a “Map Room” on the homepage, the best part of ConquerClub will become visible to new visitors and browsers of the site. I believe this will attract more players to join the site. The remainder of my suggestion will help to get them to continue playing once they have joined. “Getting Browsers to investigate the site”
Again, your program is not really a training program.Queen_Herpes wrote:First, this suggestion in its entirety will make the site more attractive to browsers and new visitors to the site. If there is a visible training program, it might not seem too difficult to join. “Attracting New Members”
Why? We already have usernames and passwords.Queen_Herpes wrote:Second, once the visitor has created a username and password, this suggestion will make the site games and options easier to navigate.
Queen_Herpes wrote:Third, once the player has started playing games, this suggestion will positively affect the likelihood that the player will continue to come back to the site for more games. “Player Retention”
Queen_Herpes wrote:Fourth, as the player plays more games: the new awards, the quickly awarded medals, the automatic PMs with helpful hints and map data, and the protection from farmers and protection from the worst of the site will positively affect the player’s experience.
Pure guessing on your part, not backed by data at all. I disagree.Queen_Herpes wrote:This will affect how frequently the player comes back to the site. With automatic emails and links to helpful information on closed topics (no flaming, no rabble to read through) new players will (more than ever before) be provided with information on how to understand each aspect of the game, new maps, and game options. “Site Enjoyment”
Here you talk about complaints older people have from playing newbies, not anything about how to retain new players at all. Lack has previously said he does not want older players keeping out new players except in very limited cases, because he wants to retain people.Queen_Herpes wrote:Fifth, fewer games are ruined by New Recruits. A team game with a new recruit means the opposing team gets an easy win 90% of the time. It takes work to lose to a new recruit in a team game. Similarly, a New Recruit can ruin a multiplayer game on a complicated map. I shouldn’t need to go into specifics on this. Players who don’t know the game options and the maps act as a wild card tipping the scales and invalidating the ranking system. Ultimately, more people will stick around if their games aren’t ruined by New Recruits. “Site Enjoyment and Player Retention of existing players”
Likely irrelevant. Why would someone have a multis to begin with? They want to win more games. This won't change that basic reasoning.Queen_Herpes wrote:Sixth, (and ancillary – this is not the main reason for this suggestion it is a fringe benefit) this will likely put an end to REAL MULTIS. I cannot fathom why someone would want multiple accounts, it is difficult enough for me to handle my account and the games I play. If it would take a veritable eternity for a player to earn the right to play in maps as a new player, I would think that multis would see less interest in investing time in “building” a new multi.
Again, I have no idea why you feel this would be true. You are making assumptions based on assumptions based on ideas that are unproven.Queen_Herpes wrote:Seventh, (a fringe benefit of a fringe benefit) because it would be so much more difficult to start a new multi, it would be less likely that an account coming out of the same IP address is a real multi. PERCEIVED MULTIS, better said: multiple accounts in the same household owned by separate individuals, are accused of being multis and banned simply because they enter the site off of the same IP address. My husband and I are victims of this and were banned from playing together for a long time. The site will have to put less effort into multi-hunting and could potentially lean frequently towards accepting that more than one person in a home, a fraternity house, a dorm, a business, a webcafe, a public library, an airport, and/or a hotel could be playing on ConquerClub as separately owned accounts.
Queen_Herpes wrote:Eighth, (also ancillary and a fringe benefit) this will help to put damper on the activities of farmers. There have been quite a few players who have been restricted, banned, or otherwise for REAL FARMING by contacting new recruits and sucking them into complicated maps with complicated options. While farmers could still set game options that new players are allowed to play in, ConquerClub could also limit communication between new recruits and seasoned players. Farmers could also sit and wait until a player has unlocked all of the options; therefore, this wouldn’t “kill” farming.
Queen_Herpes wrote:Ninth, (a fringe benefit of a fringe benefit) There have been quite a few players who have been restricted, banned, or otherwise for simply starting games on particular maps. This PERCEIVED FARMING is not actually farming and the players who have been punished for it were punished unfairly. To Farm, a player must actively seek out victims by posting on their wall or in the game chat, or sending a PM inviting the victim to join a game on a difficult map with difficult settings. Simply starting games on difficult maps is not farming. The site will have to put less effort into finding farmers and punishing them. The players who have been unfairly limited on the site can be allowed to freely roam the site. Fewer players will post complaints about the unfair punishment of players.
Queen_Herpes wrote:Additional thoughts
This is an edit from a much broader and more comprehensive training program unlocking different aspects after every 5 completed games up to the 80th completed game.
Your Further Input on this Suggestion and Objections
Please Respond! Consider this suggestion to be fluid and putty-like. I am by no means stuck to the original suggestion and willing to hear all input!
Queen_Herpes wrote:Stats for postings on this topic:
Unique Opinions: (Total): Page1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6, 7, 8, 9, 10, 11, 12, 13, 14, 15, 16, 17, 18, 19, 20, 21, 22, 23, 24, 25, 26, 27, 28, 29, 30, 31, 32, 33, 34, 35,
Unique posters in support: (36): 3, 2, 2, 3, 1, 2, 1, 1, 1, 0, 1, 0, 1, 0, 0, 0, 2, 1, 1, 0, 1, 0, 0, 1, 1, 1, 0, 0, 0, 2, 0, 6, 0, 0, 1
Unique off topic w/o opinion: (8): 2, 1, 0, 1, 0, 0, 0, 0, 0, 0, 1, 0, 1, 0, 1, 0, 1, 0, 0, 0, 0, 0, 0, 0, 0, 0, 0, 0, 1, 0, 0, 0, 0, 0, 0,
Unique posters on the fence: (10): 2, 0, 1, 1, 2, 0, 0, 1, 0, 0, 0, 0, 0, 0, 0, 0, 0, 0, 0, 0, 0, 1, 0, 0, 0, 0, 0, 0, 0, 0, 0, 0, 0, 1, 1,
Unique posters against: (17): 0, 3, 0, 0, 0, 1, 1, 0, 0, 1, 1, 1, 2, 0, 1, 0, 0, 2, 0, 0, 0, 0, 1, 0, 0, 0, 0, 1, 0, 0, 0, 0, 1, 0, 1,
Support from 36 members.
Posters against: 17.
PLAYER57832 wrote:Queen_Herpes wrote:
*Attempting to solve the problem of 372895 user accounts but only 19183 active members. (November, 2009) 5.144%
*Still attempting to solve the problem of 432102 user accounts but only 19679 active members. (June, 2010) 4.554%
*Still trying to solve the problem of 442051 users but only 19350 actives. (August, 2010) 4.377%
*Still striving to solve the problem of 505438 accounts, but only 21664 actives. (February, 2011) 4.286%
The numbers will almost always drop on a site such as this, because more people always come and go than stay. That is all your stats show, not an increasing problem with people leaving.
Player wrote:Queen_Herpes wrote:
That said, CC is always looking for ways to improve.
In their first games, New Players (Noobs, Newbies, New Recruits) won't understand the complexities of the exceptional and varied maps and game options we enjoy on Conquer Club. The New Player is farmed, ignored by the system, and left to fend for himself/herself
This is just not true.
Every new player gets a message telling them about the Society of Cooks (SOC).
Player wrote:Furthermore, while there are some people taking advantage of new players, there are MANY people who take the time to help them. There is even, still a more general mentor program, though it has not been terribly active lately. I can see somehow encouraging more people to "be nice", but your suggestion does not seem to address that.
player wrote:OK, you start here with a statement of fact "the likelihood that a new player will continue".."is low". However, you have not accurately addressed why this happens. The most basic reason is that a lot of people will come to any site like this, see it and just not stay. I don't know what the retention rate is for this site compared to others any longer, but I do recall seeing some statistics a while ago that indicated it was pretty comparable to other sites.Queen_Herpes wrote: The likelihood that a new player will continue actively visiting ConquerClub under the current structure is not theoretically, but actually low. The purpose of this suggestion is to positively affect the retention rate by means of increasing user enjoyment. Some ancillary benefits are a by-product of this suggestion.
In other words, you have not really shown CC to have a recruitment problem.
Player wrote:Agreed.Queen_Herpes wrote:
The site does not contain enough information about Maps, Options, Gameplay and Strategy as Data on the site. While some comments and discussions contain information about strategy and the maps, there is a vacuum of hard data available to browsers or new players.
Some of this is already being fixed. There is an on-going project to make new strategy guides. They are still limited, but it takes time. The real problem, is that a lot of people don't want to spend the time reading these guides.
Player wrote:Beyond that, I have said all along that I think we need maps categorized by play style -- broadly, those that are like classic, the railroad groups, those that use resource pairs, several that are just plain complicated... etc, etc.
However, your suggestion does not seem to fix these problems better or at all.
Player wrote:Queen_Herpes wrote: This recommendation offers a reasonably achievable goal: participate in X games, unlock this cool thing; participate in X more games, unlock these other cool things; etc. A goal of this suggestion is to allow new Recruits to experience this great game with basic, beginner, understandable, game options that don’t give an unfair advantage to seasoned players.
This is where our long-standing disagreement begins. The REAL truth is there is no clear stair-step ladder to the various CC maps. I began with Age of Merchants and Coral Cairns. For a while, I did pretty well on those. Then Fuedal and AOR came along. They threw most people for a loop, but a lot of people have wound up enjoying them immensely. Now we have such a wide range of play styles the idea that any kind of a specific ladder such as you describe actually helping players to understand the maps just does not make any sense.
The new recruits that join today are confronted with hundreds of maps and several settings whose funcationality is not readily apparent. Why not give new recruits these settings in a piecemeal fashion? We got to try the maps and settings in piecemeal form. I think new recruits should get that same benefit.
SirSebstar wrote:Considering they get no information now, and they can actually see the difference unlocked each time, i'd say it matter a lot and makes a lot of sense.
Andy DuFresne wrote:Lack also has a list of maps that are immediately viewable to New Recruits. Others they cannot view until they reach their promotion. I think every new map gets put on this list for a duration of time. Eventually Lack will go through the list, and shuffle maps out of those prohibited for New Recruits---and may add others in, if they seem to contribute to New Recruits leaving the website.
However, I don't know if gradually unlocking more things (and thus prohibiting more things) at other Ranks, is a model that Lack wants to pursue. There is a fine line between protecting your customers/possible customers, and inhibiting their enjoyment of the website.
SirSebstar wrote:Considering they get no information now, and they can actually see the difference unlocked each time, i'd say it matter a lot and makes a lot of sense.
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