Solar System ERROR FIX v1.0.2 (w/ PSD files) [Quenched]

[Night Strike]

Very much improved........nice work.

Do you need the jump gate explanation in the legend?? I don't think it's necessary.

I would make the legend box look more "galactic" instead of just plain white.

I still think you need to remove the one way between Saturn's High Orbit and Rings.

I would push JG-U to the left and connect Titania and Low Orbit of Uranus (it would match the other paths around jump gates).

I just realized that Earth by itself has a +1....that's not fair to the other planets that have 3 territories for a +1. Make it Earth and Moon for the bonus.

The path between Low Orbit of Saturn and Centeral (with is spelled wrong [central}) Saturn isn't dark enough.

Make "North Temperate Belt" into "N. Temperate Belt" for consistency.

Finally, I want to play one of the first games on this map with you. Nice work.

[maxdetjens]

Do you need the jump gate explanation in the legend?? I don't think it's necessary.

I agree but i figured people would gripe if i lost it. I'll drop it in the next version and see what kind of response I get.

I would make the legend box look more "galactic" instead of just plain white.

Word

I still think you need to remove the one way between Saturn's High Orbit and Rings.

Just for clutter reduction, or is there another reason? I originally put it in because it seemed sensible if you could go from high orbit to low orbit you should also be able to make it to the rings. and it makes saturn's structure a little different than the others.

I would push JG-U to the left and connect Titania and Low Orbit of Uranus (it would match the other paths around jump gates).

JG-U is connected to LO and Titania, isn't it?

I just realized that Earth by itself has a +1....that's not fair to the other planets that have 3 territories for a +1. Make it Earth and Moon for the bonus.

%&*@! Thats one of those things thats so simple that I can't believe i didn't think of it.

The path between Low Orbit of Saturn and Centeral (with is spelled wrong [central}) Saturn isn't dark enough.

check and check

Make "North Temperate Belt" into "N. Temperate Belt" for consistency.

Doable.

[maxdetjens]

Finally, I want to play one of the first games on this map with you. Nice work.

I'll be setting up a private game for some the big contributers to this thread.

Since I'm, already straying off my own topic... Whats the smart way to shut down the poll at the top?

[maxdetjens]

looks much better now

Well when I start out setting the bar super low...

your army circles are ppixalated.

In a revision (perhaps v0.4) i switched from lightly glowing rims to stroked rims. I'll switch back and we'll see how folk feel.

[qoute]I also think the bonuses are off.[/quote]Which ones and how much? Give me some input.

[maxdetjens]

Jump gate problem seems solved for me. Im not sure about the box around the legend though, it looks odd when it crosses Saturns rings

Indeed. Nightstrike thinks it needs to be more galactic and I can drop the Jump gate description. If i do that i can move it down a bit and away from Saturn. Do you concur?

[Night Strike]

No, you removed the connection between Titania and LO b/c there is a jump gate between them.

I would remove the one-way partially b/c of clutter and partially b/c of consistency.

Oops, gotta go now.......I'll post more later.

[Pious]

If the seven jump gates start neutral, there's only 55 territories at the start. That only divides evenly for 5 players, every other amount of players leads to there being additional neutral territories.

[maxdetjens]

it looks REALLY CROWDED.... I see what you are trying to do and there is definitely potential but you need to clean it up a bit......especially if you make the small version...

Also, one of the main reason your map looks crowded is that there are too many attack lines

It's space. Space is wide open. You should have lots of potential attack targets. So how do i keep that wide open feeling and reduce the clutter? I want to build some concensous before I begin waking away too much.

Bad Speler has suggested removing attach lines, Nighstrike recommends tossing the JG description and loosing the one way from HO of S to the rings. I could see loosing Chiron (gets me back to the magical 61 countries - see Pious's post on page 4) and making those connection with Greek Camp. I could also perhaps see merging Pluto and Charon.

[Pious]

Neptune has no incentive to control the upper orbit and jump gate, unlike the other gas giants. If you control Neptune's lower orbit and its moon, you defend its bonus well without having to take the jump gate and the upper orbit.

[maxdetjens]

No, you removed the connection between Titania and LO b/c there is a jump gate between them.

Thank you for holding my hand and walking me through that, i totally didn't see it.

I would remove the one-way partially b/c of clutter and partially b/c of consistency.

I see the clutter argument (Also might allow me to move Saturn over and away from the legend.) But I don't understand your consistency argument. Saturn is the indeed the only one with rings but its a "layer" between the LO and moons, not just another moon. Though i suppose i could suspend reality a bit and make it that way.

[maxdetjens]

Neptune has no incentive to control the upper orbit and jump gate, unlike the other gas giants. If you control Neptune's lower orbit and its moon, you defend its bonus well without having to take the jump gate and the upper orbit.

It is kind of a bunker. I think the solution is to make it a bonus of 2 instead of 3.

[maxdetjens]

If the seven jump gates start neutral, there's only 55 territories at the start. That only divides evenly for 5 players, every other amount of players leads to there being additional neutral territories.

Agreed I'm willing to drop one. or perhaps combine 2 (like pluto and charon)

I am now accepting nominations.

[Pious]

EDIT: Nevermind, you only need 2 key middle points and a jump gate to defend Saturn.

[Pious]

To defend Inner Solar System you need JG-IP and Mars.

To defend Asteroid Belt you need JG-AB, Eunoma Family, and Vesta Family.

To defend Jupiter and its moons, you need JG-J, Trojan Camp, and High Orbit of Jupiter.

To defend Saturn and its moons you need JG-S, High Orbit of Saturn, and Chariklo.

To defend Uranus and its moons you need High Orbit of Uranus and JG-U.

To defend Neptune and its moon (you need to fix key to have moon in the singular) you need only Low Orbit of Neptune and Triton.

To defend the TNOs you need JG-TNO, 136108, Orcus, Pluto, and Charon.

Based on these, the Trans Neptunian Objects are the hardest bonus to hold with a total of 5 as its minimum, far more than even Jupiter. There's no clear way to defend it, even taking further than its boundaries. Neptune is the easiest of the gas giants (and even all of the territories to hold) since you only need to and you don't even need to take a jump gate.

Just by glancing at it, Neptune looks like the easiest to take and Jupiter looks like the hardest.

[maxdetjens]

Edited from Pious's Post:
- To defend Inner Solar System you need JG-IP and Mars.
OR Mars, Moon, Earth, and Venus without JG-IP.
- To defend Asteroid Belt you need JG-AB, Eunoma Family, and Vesta Family.
OR Eunoma Family, and Vesta Family Flora Family and Eos Family without JG-AB.
- To defend Jupiter and its moons, you need JG-J, Trojan Camp, and High Orbit of Jupiter.
OR Ganymede, Low Orbit of Jupiter, High Orbit of Jupiter, and Trojan Camp without JG-J
- To defend Saturn and its moons you need JG-S, High Orbit of Saturn, and Chariklo.
OR Rings, Low Orbit of Saturn, Rhea, and Titan (could also use High Orbit of Saturn as a choke over Titan) without JG-S
- To defend Uranus and its moons you need High Orbit of Uranus and JG-U.
OR Low Orbit of Uranus, Titania (which will be reconnected to the Low orbit of Uranus in the next version), and either Oberon or High Orbit of Uranus without the JG-U
- To defend Neptune and its moon (The Key will be fixed to have "moon" in the singular) you need only Low Orbit of Neptune and Triton.
-- JG-N doesn't help too much except that it allows you to control the High Orbit of Neptune instead of Triton.
- To defend the TNOs you need JG-TNO, 136108, Orcus, Pluto, and Charon.
OR Sedna, Quadar, 136108 ORcus Charon and Pluto without JG-TNO

Taking a gate might not be a good idea since it could counter act the bonus you receive from holding the region. Your first gate (and first region) will be oj because it's +1 to hold the gate but after that holding the gate attached to a region would be a tough choice to make.

This Table might be illuminating

This table assumes that I change the Neptune bonus to 2 (which is in the works)
The Choke point column shows how many territories you need to hold a region both with and without the Jump Gate in the area. The other seven columns show the combined value of the region bonus and jump gate bonus of taking the region (either with or without the gate) as your 1st region, 2nd region, 3rd region, and so on. The w/o JG line stay constant showing your choice not to take a single gate (At the cost of holding more choke points) the w/ JG line shows the fluctuating (but yet still skill based) fortunes of taking every gate attached to your new region. So if you own Uranus and JG-U (a total bonus of 4) and are looking to take Saturn your total bonus if you take the gate is 6 (3 for uranus, 4 for saturn and -1 for holding JG-U and JG-S) Which means you've not done much to improve your situation. If you own Uranus and decide to take Saturn but not its gate your total bonus will be 8 (3 for uranus, 4 for saturn, and 1 for holding JG-U). So the difference between 8 and 6 is 2 and its that 2 thats on the table. Its as clear as mud.

The point is that some of these areas aren't hard to hold if you take the gate but taking the gate isn't always the best move. In our above example the player who owns uranus and is taking Saturn might well be better served not taking JG-S but rather holding the one extra choke point and only taking JG-S when he/she tries for a new region. Like the inner planets. Then the player could take JG-S and JG-IP and stop. take a bonus of 9 on the next turn (3 for uranus, 4 for saturn and 2 for JG-U, JG-S and JG-IP plus any territory bonus for holding 12 or more) and have a good shot at taking IP. But be careful. in the mean time if the player holding the inner planets held JG-IP and JG-N then the inner planet player will now get a extra bonus of +2 (JG bonus goes from -1 to +1) if they held inner planets and the two gates (now down to one thanks to the invader) they have a bonus on there turn of 4 instead of 2.

towards the end of the chart it looks like the swings in in taking JG are pretty wild. If your a bad player who takes them one at a time the effects will probably kill you. If your a smart player who takes the gates two at a time you'll reap the rewards. If your a weaker player who can take a gate from a stronger player (even if it means you end up with a -1 gate bonus) the effect on the stronger player can be fairly big. Giving a smart player who had some early bad luck a chance to make up for it.

So the trade off with the regions and gates is that the gates can bite you but without them you have more choke points to defend. Further, Jump-gates one taken need to be held tightly otherwise they provide a dangerous conduit of attack for your enemies and (if you've been smart and only hold an odd number of gates) a change in fortunes. So Gates need extra forting. That extra forting makes them even more powerful for attacking your enimies. I'm super excited to play with these gates!!!

I think the region bonues need tweeking.
Considerations:
- The Neptune bonus should be 2
- The Earth sub reagion should be the earth and moon subregion for +1
- The TNO should have sub bonuses
---Plutinos: (bonus 2) Pluto, Charon, Orcus
---Kuiper Belt: (bonus 3) Pluto, Charon, Orcus, Quaoar,136472,136108
---Oort Cloud: (bonus 1) Sedna and Eris (136472 needs to be swaped with Sedna)
- The TNO could be worth more considering they have 6-7 choke points. I think its ok to stay at 5 if add the sub regions then at least a player can build up to owning all the TNO region.
- The could be a +1 bonus for the Centaurs: Chariklo and Chiron
- Inner Plants and Asteroid Belt have the same 3-4 choke point scheme (See table) But yet asteroid Belt is 4 and Inner Planets is only 3. I think this is OK because the AB is more vulnerable to non-gate attacks and doesn't have a subregion (though I could make any three asteroid belt territories worth +1)
- if Neptune is 2, Uranus 3, Saturn must be 4 (even if i drop the one way to the rings)
- if Saturn is 4 then Jupiter can be 4 or 5 but I like 5 simply because there is 11 territories take as apposed to Saturn's 7.

[maxdetjens]

In the above post i forgot to talk about the strategy of taking only jump gates.

If you can take one, and then take the rest in spurts of 2 then great. But every gate can be attacked by every other gate and a few territories in the region. smart adversaries will probably let you get neck deep in this strategy by allowing you 3 or 5 or perhaps 7 jump gates and then punch you in the throat buy taking only one. And then when your weak and barely take it back they'll just do it again. if your turns starts and all you have is 6 gates then the -3 for JG bonus and +3 minimum armies cancel and your dumb-ass gets beans. Some may not like that, I say its natural selection.

To the player who sees jump gates only as the way to vitory, I say "best of luck". Its a strategy I'd only try in a triples game where my teammates were awesome and the other team were total noobs. Its unlikely to work against anyone with brains.

[Keredrex]

Better but box in only the jump gates.... That way it doesn't cross saturns rings....
But what about no bonus for Jump Gates....
or one all encompassing bonus.. or leave it alone and but a negative bonus somewhere on every other teritory

[maxdetjens]

Better but box in only the jump gates.... That way it doesn't cross saturns rings....

the next version will have Saturns rings intact and not behind a legend. But it might be a different strategy. When you see the next version let me know if your concerns weren't addressed to your liking.

[maxdetjens]

There are some name choices for 136472 and 136108.

Catalog Number: 136472
Provisional Designation: 2005 FY9
Nickname: Easterbunny

Catalog Number: 136108
Provisional Designation: 2003 EL61
Nickname: Santa

Any preferences?

Probably should stay clear of the nicknames as they go away when the thing gets named (136108 is up for naming soon). the provisional designation is the "name" of the thing until its named. So for now the full proper names are "(136108) 2003 EL61". and "(136472) 2005 FY9". The catalog number will never change.

[maxdetjens]

But what about no bonus for Jump Gates....
or one all encompassing bonus.. or leave it alone and but a negative bonus somewhere on every other teritory

Let me get out the next version then I'll make a post that contains all the proposed jump gate bonus structures. Then we can debate.

[Pious]

But what about no bonus for Jump Gates....
or one all encompassing bonus.. or leave it alone and but a negative bonus somewhere on every other teritory

Let me get out the next version then I'll make a post that contains all the proposed jump gate bonus structures. Then we can debate.

When can we expect the next version to be posted? I have a few more things I see wrong with this map but they might have been fixed by you already.

[maxdetjens]

This evening about 8:00pm Mountain Time.

Though while I'm updating have this thread on the other screen and check it. So go ahead and hit me with your corrections. That way it can be as up to date as possible. Chances are, if it hasn't been mentioned already I wont correct it unless I'm told.

I only ask that we hold off on the ongoing debate about JG bonus issues until we see v0.7. at that point I'll compile all the proposed JG bonus structures I've gotten into one post. The hope is to have a more informed discussion on that key issue.

[Pious]

Sorry if it has been said before, but I couldn't find it:

Neptune's region should say "Neptune & Triton" and not "Neptune & Moons" because Neptune only has one moon.

Perhaps the TNOs should have a mini-bonus of Pluto and Charon since every other region has a mini-bonus.

[maxdetjens]

Sorry if it has been said before, but I couldn't find it:
Neptune's region should say "Neptune & Triton" and not "Neptune & Moons" because Neptune only has one moon.
Perhaps the TNOs should have a mini-bonus of Pluto and Charon since every other region has a mini-bonus.

Those will both be in v0.7. They have been mentioned but It can take hours of reading though these almost 100 posts to find them. I really need to start keeping a better Ongoing Issues List.

Its looking more like 8:30 pm Mountain Time

[maxdetjens]

67 Territories, 7 regions, 8 sub-regions, Alternating Jump Gate Bonus

New Chart



Changes:
- Changed AC style to reduce pixilation
- Moved everything around to reduce cramping in some areas
- Toned down background to reduce starfield muddle
- Made and deleted connections especially in TNO area and middle
- Added Iapetus, Ariel, Koronis Family, Gefon Faiily and the Neptune Trojans to bring the total to 67. (67 – 7 neutral starting jump gates is 60 which divides nicely)
- Changed up asteroid field look. It’s a bit less fisher price looking
- Shrunk the planets
- Put “galactic” looking frames around the keys
- Got Saturn out from underneath the key
- Reduced the size of the sun
- Threw out some one ways
- Fixed some spelling (And probably added new misspellings)
- Drank

Remaining Tasks (THIS LIST IS UPDATED UNTIL THE NEXT VERSION)
- Make Small Map
- XML
- Get the masses to sign off on bonus structure
- In the legend, inner planets & moons, drop the 'S', theres only Earth's Moon
- The Uranus army shadows are still pixelated.
- Determine new way vs old for asteroid belt look
- Clarify TNO sub region bonuses in key.
- Try an army circle that looks like the legend for the Jump Gates
- Style up the title font/color/etc.
- Shorten Orbit names by removing of (Neptune Low Orbit vs. Low Orbit of Neptune)