A Problem

[spinwizard]

At the moment the main problem with the foundery is that their view on maps is not shared by the general CC public, just how far you can push the bounderys of what is risk and what isn't is being tested to its limit and i don't think the general CC community (GCCT) appreciates or likes this, the more abstract maps are among the least well liked and played maps on CC but they are the most liked maps in the foundery, eg. pearl harbor receved alot of support from the foundery but most of the GCCT hated it, we need to bridge this map between the GCCt and the foundery as I feel the foundery is currently out of tutch with what the GCCT wants!

Thanks for reading and I am sorry for picking on your map as a example cairns

[Coleman]

I've conducted a series of polls in General that suggest a large portion of players prefer the gimicky maps. Your wall of text is unfounded.

This topic: http://www.conquerclub.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=30272


Pearl Harbor has 42 pages.

France, a classic gameplay map, has 30 pages.

Both were released around the same time. And Pearl Harbor games take longer to play.

I suggest research would serve you well before you come here and post complaints backed with the opinions of a noisy few. I am not convinced most of CC (or GCCT if you must) hates what we are doing.

Thankfully for you, we are still creating classic maps, as they have an audience, but we will not stop making non-standard maps for the majority of CC that wants them.

Have a great day.

[spinwizard]

Thanks for the reply, I don't see how the poll churned out those resluts and as u said Pearl harbor maps take longer to play so they will work out about the same if not France has more, I don't feel france looks too appealing to the eye so that has to be take into account, along with who voted in the poll (*Cough* Foundary members *Cough*) I understand u chose france as your example because of the quench time but why not chose more successfull classic style maps?

I think u will find the majoity of CC does not want more abstract maps.

As u can see there are more factors that have to be taken into account to projuce a fair representaion.

Have a great day

[Coleman]

You think we have 61 regular foundry members that actually left the foundry to go see that poll? Most of the responses were not foundry regulars so I'm going to assume most of the voters weren't either. And I actually voted for more classic maps with less gimmicks (and I wish I was better at making them).

Anyway, I don't see where I can go to find that most of CC doesn't want more abstract maps. Perhaps you could do so and enlighten us. My thoughts are CC wants more of every kind of map, which we are doing our best to provide.

I guess I could do a complete analysis when I have more time. I probably will. But I get the feeling people are playing (and have played) abstract maps more when they aren't playing classic.

I guess we'll see. But in the end I don't see what difference it makes, we want to make maps for every kind of person, even the minorities.

[spinwizard]

You think we have 61 regular foundry members that actually left the foundry to go see that poll? Most of the responses were not foundry regulars so I'm going to assume most of the voters weren't either. And I actually voted for more classic maps with less gimmicks (and I wish I was better at making them).

Anyway, I don't see where I can go to find that most of CC doesn't want more abstract maps. Perhaps you could do so and enlighten us. My thoughts are CC wants more of every kind of map, which we are doing our best to provide.

I guess I could do a complete analysis when I have more time. I probably will. But I get the feeling people are playing (and have played) abstract maps more when they aren't playing classic.

I guess we'll see. But in the end I don't see what difference it makes, we want to make maps for every kind of person, even the minorities.

It was based on the fact that Abstract maps are some of the least played maps on CC, anyway I am in a better mood now and don't feel like argueing, thanks for humoring me

I agree

[mibi]

I make maps I want to play.

and if you want to get technical, gimmicky maps are satisfying the long tail.

[edbeard]

people are going to make maps that THEY want to make.

some people make standard maps with no gimmicks. some people find these boring.

if the 'general CC public' want more standard maps, then they have to participate in the foundry process. whether it is by commenting or starting their own project.

when people make the 'XXXX is a good idea for a map. someone should make it' thread, no one will take that idea unless that's something THEY want to do. I try to tell those people that if they want an idea to become a map, they need to take charge. So, if you want more standard maps, then take charge and make one yourself.

None of us knew how to do this when we first started. read the foundry threads and see how things progress. study the maps you like and go from there. good luck.

[spinwizard]

people are going to make maps that THEY want to make.

some people make standard maps with no gimmicks. some people find these boring.

if the 'general CC public' want more standard maps, then they have to participate in the foundry process. whether it is by commenting or starting their own project.

when people make the 'XXXX is a good idea for a map. someone should make it' thread, no one will take that idea unless that's something THEY want to do. I try to tell those people that if they want an idea to become a map, they need to take charge. So, if you want more standard maps, then take charge and make one yourself.

None of us knew how to do this when we first started. read the foundry threads and see how things progress. study the maps you like and go from there. good luck.

ps. I don't intend to make a standard map untill crossword 2.0 is cleared up..mabey not then, i dont have the time...

[spiesr]

if the 'general CC public' want more standard maps, then they have to participate in the foundry process. whether it is by commenting or starting their own project.

The general members of this site don't and will not participate in the foundry, that is the problem with the foundry.

[spinwizard]

if the 'general CC public' want more standard maps, then they have to participate in the foundry process. whether it is by commenting or starting their own project.

The general members of this site don't and will not participate in the foundry, that is the problem with the foundry.

FINALY, Someone understands my point!

[Coleman]

If they won't visit here how do they expect their needs will be met?

I know spiesr wants a cheese map (whatever that is), an amusement park map, and an old style risk map. We can't do the old style risk due to copyright, but the other two are possible. We know this because he bothered to ask for it in Map Ideas topics.

I'd love to make up a CC theme park in the style and depth of layout as Disney Land but I don't have the artistic skill, although I am getting better.

Anyway, the ultimate goal is being able to figure out what theme or style most people want (and not just the foundry people) at any given moment. I haven't quite figured it out yet, but I have a few ideas. I refuse to accept this is an unsolvable problem.

[Anarkistsdream]

I certainly think it is solvable...

I can see both sides of the coin here, but I have absolutely no idea what could be done.

People need to be more invovled, but this forum is cluttered and hard to dig through. There are four thousand stickies and announcements and it is a very daunting thing for some newbie to come in here and post without being attacked verbally by either frequent posters or moderators.

[spiesr]

If they won't visit here how do they expect their needs will be met?

I am going to guess that they expect that when a map is launched and they have problems with it that it will be changed...

I know spiesr wants a cheese map (whatever that is), an amusement park map, and an old style risk map.

Where did you find this?

Note:
Keep this in mind. For many people, the first time they see a map is when it is put up for play. (They either are unaware of the forums or just never use them.) I am sure that to some people assume that the map making process would naturally continue well after a map is put up, and they don't get an opinion untill they play it...

[Herakilla]

on the other hand, if you make enough maps everyone has to have at least one to like (as if 50+ isnt enough lol )

[oaktown]

The general members of this site don't and will not participate in the foundry, that is the problem with the foundry.

If you are right, spiesr, and the problem is simply that users refuse to participate, the problem is that users aren't getting the maps they want; that's not really a foundry problem, it's the users' problem. This does not negatively impact the foundry or foundry regulars until those same users start bitching about how much the foundry sucks.

Follow? Let me break it down:

Johnny McUser doesn't want to spend his time in the Foundry, so he doesn't: no problem.
The Foundry makes some maps: no problem.
Johnny McUser doesn't like the new maps: Johnny's problem.
Johnny McUser comes to the Foundry to tell everybody in the foundry how much they suck: Foundry's problem.

So I ask you: Is what you've posted the problem? Or is it a result of some deeper problem? Because if it is a result of some deeper problem, we should be trying to root out what that problem is.

[Coleman]

I agree with oaktown if that is the case, but spiesr is implying that the problem is users just don't know about the foundry or even the forums in some instances.

If that is the case this is something we'd need lack's help with. I think he was doing tutorial e-mails or whatever to new users. Pointing out the existence of the foundry and a brief description of how it works would be swell.

And now I have an idea that will distract me for the rest of the day.

[spiesr]

I am not really saying that the problem is that people don't know about it, althouhg that is likely a contributing factor...
There are many reasons for people not using the foundry.
*Not Aware
*Dislike of forums
*Foundry univiting
*Don't have time to keep up with maps
*Many others reasons...

[Anarkistsdream]

Many other reasons... Like what I mentioned in my above post.

I have heard of several times where regular posters in this forum berate or make fun of a poster who is just trying to contribute.

Why the hell are people going to be around to shoot ideas if people are not tolerant.

[Coleman]

This is all conceptual right now but what if we had a map request topic (like we do now, only maybe outside, like in general or something if possible) and then once a month the 10 most frequent requests (or a random sample of requests if there is not a 10 most frequent group) are put into a 3-5-7 day poll and the one with the most votes will be made through the foundry process.

The big problems with this idea are obvious:

• Need cartographers willing to pick up one of these each month.
• Need support from moderators or admin who are not in the foundry.
• The nature of people who don't give a damn to request and vote for really dumb things.
• The nature of the foundry regulars to become deeply involved in the process and influence results.

Anyway, it's a start. I don't see an easy button on this and related issues. But I'm in for a long fight as this is important enough.

[DiM]

i don't understand 1 thing spinwizard keeps saying we do maps that aren't played. he came earlier in the AoR thread and said that the map is bad and should not be quenched because it won't be played.

1. it's absurd to ask that a map in FF is abandoned just because you think it won't be played.
2. that's exactly what many people said when i made AoM and to their surprise it has been played a lot more than the other maps that were quenched in that day and it has even surpassed maps that were quenched 6 months earlier.

so because you or other players don't play gimmicky maps or abstract maps doesn't mean that nobody plays them. it doesn't even mean that you represent the majority.

and to get back on the original idea. you said AoR is stupid and that abstract maps are stupid and should not be made because they won't be played by the majority, and yet your most valuable project is crossword 2.0. the LEAST played map on this site. talk about irony. AoM has more than double the games on crossword in less than a third of the time and yet you consider that crap and crossword genius. get you facts straight and stop posting nonsense.

now you're gonna say i'm being rude and that i'm unfriendly towards newcomers. well perhaps so but i'd rather stay here and make maps by myself than to deal with your crap and trolling. so if my words sound harsh and make you leave the foundry then be my guest.

[spiesr]

The above post is an example of why newcomers leave the foundry...

[wcaclimbing]

instead of copying my entire posts into here, please go read all of my posts on this page:
http://www.conquerclub.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=32345&start=60and you will see what i would post here, if i hadnt already done it over there.

[oaktown]

Problem, they say. There's a cancer in the Foundry process. The Foundry sucks. Stay away from the Foundry. Boo, Foundry!

So what's the problem with the Foundry?
(If you read all the way to the end, I will reveal the secret.)

At the moment the main problem with the foundery is that their view on maps is not shared by the general CC public

The foundry is made up of the dozens of regulars (including spinwizard) and the hundreds of more casual visitors who make posts. There is not one collective view on maps, nor is there a collective CC view, as Coleman has pointed out. And the foundry continues to pump out a great variety of maps, from simple (Portugal, Italy, France, Midkemia) to more complex (Berlin, Pearl), so I refute this.

The general members of this site don't and will not participate in the foundry, that is the problem with the foundry.

As I've said, the simple fact that somebody chooses not to visit the Foundry is not in itself a problem. The Foundry continues to produce maps without the participation of many members. I refute this.

the problem is users just don't know about the foundry or even the forums in some instances.

Well, somehow these users who don't know that the forums exist do a pretty good job of starting debates like this in the forums. The people who really don't know about the forums are just here to play, so let's let them play. I refute this.

People need to be more invovled, but this forum is cluttered and hard to dig through. There are four thousand stickies and announcements...

Well, actually there is one announcement and four stickies, and there are fewer subforums than in either GD or Tournaments. I would agree that the Foundry could use a spring cleaning, and the volume of threads can be overwhelming, but your quote continues...

it is a very daunting thing for some newbie to come in here and post without being attacked verbally by either frequent posters or moderators.

We've heard much about this for the past two months, all stemming from one incident in which somebody was treated roughly by a Foundry regular who is known for his lack of tact (which he demonstrated in this thread). And I've not known Andy, Coleman, or Cairns to attack anybody, let alone a user who was simply posting a suggestion... their harshest criticism is directed at the mapmakers, and it is usually constructive. This is an issue which has gotten a lot of press recently in the Foundry, so let's run with it...

I have heard of several times where regular posters in this forum berate or make fun of a poster who is just trying to contribute.

A theme is developing...

I have seen some new mapmakers post their attempted maps and get get completely slaughtered by many other foundry members, new, old, and even some of the guys at the top were all there, completely destroying him and his map.

Not going to name any names, but i can think of at least 2 not-so-good maps where someone from THIS thread (oh noes!) was a major contributor to destroying that guys hopes of ever creating a map.

So, is it true? Are we mean? And if we are, why don't I notice it? Because I've never seen anybody attacked in either of my map threads. And there was a very thoughtful discussion recently about how new maps are often ignored, in which it was suggested that sometimes we don't have the heart to dish out some much needed tough love when somebody is clearly in over his head.

There have been instances of Foundrites (my new term) being insulting. Too many. I've been guilty of this myself, though it's usually when somebody comes in to attack the Foundry. But here's what it comes down to: do the majority of CC members stay out of the Foundry as a result of the handful of actual incidents that have been mentioned? And have the majority of CC members been attacked when they try to post here? I'd say no. This is not the problem plaguing the Foundry.

So what's the problem?? I think I know... Ready?

We all take this too personally.

When the color scheme on my quenched map is attacked I take it personally.
When a complex map is quenched, users who like simple maps take it personally.
When a "small" map is quenched, small map haters take it personally.
When the Foundry is attacked, Coleman takes it so personally he quits his clan.
When somebody criticizes a new map project, the mapmaker takes it personally.
When a map isn't moved to Foundry or Forge, the mapmaker takes it personally.
When DiM is his lovable but tactless self people take it personally.
When somebody makes a map about Iraq, anti-war people take it personally.
When anti-war folks attack the map on Iraq, everybody else takes it personally.
When somebody makes a map of Europe and doesn't include Luxembourg, Luxembourgians take it personally.

So, do we change our ways? Police everything that is said? Attach a disclaimer to every post by DiM? No. We do what we've always been doing. We make maps, we give feedback on others' maps, and we play some games. And every two months we have a big fight about what's wrong with the Foundry, we make a little change, and then we move on. New Cartography Assistants are brought on board, celebrated, criticized, and ultimately get sick of it and quit.

And hopefully DiM won't take my comments personally... we all know this place wouldn't be the same without him.

[RjBeals]

We all take this too personally.

Not me....

[DiM]

it is a very daunting thing for some newbie to come in here and post without being attacked verbally by either frequent posters or moderators.

We've heard much about this for the past two months, all stemming from one incident in which somebody was treated roughly by a Foundry regular who is known for his lack of tact (which he demonstrated in this thread). And I've not known Andy, Coleman, or Cairns to attack anybody, let alone a user who was simply posting a suggestion... their harshest criticism is directed at the mapmakers, and it is usually constructive. This is an issue which has gotten a lot of press recently in the Foundry, so let's run with it...

actually you know what the funny part is?
i may be wrong but the incident was caused by rebelman that issued an abuse report because he felt he was treated harshly by..... *drums* cairnswk. ne of the calmest people i've seen in the foundry.

oh and btw i have a warning in my sig for almost a full day now.

PS: i don't take anything personally. the only time i took an insult personally was a while back and it came from a person that's no longer around. since then i haven't involved personal feelings in the foundry. in fact i was just talking today with cairnswk about my usual rantings. here's 2 quotes from our discussion that i think clearly explain my way of acting in the foundry:

and i agree with you it's not worth getting upset over something so trivial as a guy's opinion on a forum on the internet. but the funny thing is that after reading my posts people think i'm some kind of angry kid and stuff like that when i actually feel calmer when i go on my rants. i like contradictory discussions i like debating. and i don't see it as anger i see it as mental exercise and as a way of relaxing. some people like playing chess to relax and exercise their mind. i like debating. i'm know to my friends for debating on anything. i work as a night manager and because it's night and there's bound to be some free time at work i spend that time debating with my colleagues. on anything ranging from local politics to why the candy wrapper is made of tin foil instead of plastic. it's great.

i myself am a very calm person i very rarely scream and no matter how agitated the other person gets i remain calm. but it's a calmness of the surface because my words can sting just as much as the person that yells and even more because they're enhanced by my calmness. unfortunately on the internet i'm invisible and only the words are seen. sometimes when i read my posts i imagine i look like yelling and slamming my fist on the table but i actually write everything with a small smile on my face.

btw as usual you managed to be very tactful and diplomatic. you spoil all the fun. if all the people were like you we'd all be some kind of tree hugging hippies. i don't want to hug trees i want revolution i want to burn my bra. actually since i don't have a bra i'll just burn my socks.