A Problem

[spiesr]

Here is an idea:
How about that every time a map is moved to final forge a pm is sent out to all active users telling them about it. Of course you would be able to dis able this is My Settings. This might increase the input from other users and decrease whining after a map is quenched. Map makers would have to adjust thier perception of the foundry slightly though to be more receptive to critcism in final forge.

[AndyDufresne]

I'm not sure a mass PM is the right idea, but I do know we are looking into creating a Club Newsletter, and the Foundry would most certainly have it's own area in that.


--Andy

[DiM]

Here is an idea:
How about that every time a map is moved to final forge a pm is sent out to all active users telling them about it. Of course you would be able to dis able this is My Settings. This might increase the input from other users and decrease whining after a map is quenched. Map makers would have to adjust thier perception of the foundry slightly though to be more receptive to critcism in final forge.

actually this is a bad idea. when a map reaches final forge it means the map maker has put a lot of time and effort into creating that map. afterall it has been in the foundry for 1-3 months or even more. at that point it would really suck to have 1000 people come and saytheydon't like this or that. it would basically mean that the whole process has to restart. i for one wouldn't want to spend another 3 months trying to redo the map.

if you want pms sent then perhaps the best point in a map creation would be when the map is moved from the ideas to the main foundry. it's still early in the process and modifications are much easier to do.

[oaktown]

i don't take anything personally. the only time i took an insult personally was a while back and it came from a person that's no longer around. since then i haven't involved personal feelings in the foundry.

be strong, oaktown, don't take the bait...

But i agree, PM is a bad idea. People should check in BEFORE a map is forged, and nobody should be bothered by PMs that they don't want.

[amazzony]

I didn't come here to argue nor bring trouble from the outside world.
I'm staying on neutral ground because I don't understand people barging in here and telling that stop making maps like that. And I don't understand all the hardworking mapmakers who do stick very together and whenever there's an attack against one of them then everybody gangbangs against those. I do understand that it ain't nice when people come here and criticize you and your hard work but at the same time you should of taken it under consideration (that you will get a lot of different opinions because art isn't always understood the same way by different people). And yes, when you get attacked then you want to defend yourself but...

Alright, after all this crap around the Canada map, I've read different thread and argues around here and I'm kinda disappointed because it looks a lot like Flame Wars. As I said, outsiders come barging and start flaming some maps in threads that should be about general talk and then the more active Foundry people start defending themselves and flaming back.

I'm an active forum reader and less active poster but there are 2 Forums that I'm staying away - Flame Wars (just lame for my taste) and Foundry.
Why Foundry? Because I feel like a foreigner here. I mean, I've looked around here time to time but... I feel like I'm in a labyrinth. I don't know which threads are more important or which maps are the ones who should get more attention and maybe commenting. If I have a comment/idea/suggestion about some map then I don't dare posting it. Because I don't have time to go through all the tens of pages about one map to know if there's already a similar comment. Also, I don't know which suggestions are welcome and which not (which can be implemented and/or which are impossible). So on, so on, so on...
So, basically, my problem is that I don't feel welcome in here (for example, all the stickies are about map making and it makes me hesitate if I should keep being in this forum or not). Just a nice welcoming message to those who aren't interested in making maps and just would like to give them comments wouldn't hurt IMHO. Just something to remind people that they would stay polite, where they can find the maps that are in progress (how to find them), which stage of the map waits more comments (for example, when map is in final forge - how much or what can be changed during that time). For all the map makers it comes logically but for outsiders - it's hard to grasp it all at the beginning.

And, of course, it's not your problem but you keep saying that there's no "us" and "them" but for me it seems that there is.

Though I'm gonna be "me" because I know that it's my own problem that I haven't tried to take part in the map making. And I do like all the maps that come out of here. Some I like more so I'll play them more and some I like less so I'll play them less but I never ignore any maps and I'll try to give several games to one map before I make up my mind.

Oh, and all of those who have played map once, lost it and then whine that the map sucks - here's some gas and a box of matches and over there is a place where you can put yourself on fire.
The fact that you don't understand the map right away and that you lose your game doesn't mean that it's a bad map or hard to understand.

Sorry about this random rant but I felt that as a random player and quite active forum reader, I should put my thoughts down just to show some other point of view. Especially when everybody comes in here and talks for "the majority". I'm just talking what I think and feel. And please, don't bother answering it because I'm sure that you want to start correcting my views and understandings of Foundry from one side and of "the majority" from the other side.

And it actually should go to another thread that I read last night but I can't find it anymore

Cheers,
amazzony

[oaktown]

thanks amazony... the more we hear this, the sooner it might actually sink in. The Foundry is a big ugly beast and difficult to navigate if you're new, and I think this does indeed discourage use. I don't think anybody intended it to be that way, nor does anybody intend to chase new users off, so stick with it and join the madness!

It sounds as if Coleman and Andy are trying to do some reorganizing, so let's see if that doesn't clean things up?

[DiM]

i don't get it. i do people say it's a jungle here?

simply because they have no idea of what goes on.

if they took their time they'd realize it's not such a bad place to be.

look i stay away from flame forums because i don't know what goes on in there. i posted a while back something in a thread. not flaming just posting a bit of info and i was immediately cursed simply because i was a stranger.

i also think the same situation goes in the forum games. i have no idea how mafia is played. if i go in the middle of a mafia thread and post something idiotic, do you think people will stop their game and give me friendly advice and help me understand the game? no they'll simply tell me to butt-off and leave.

the point is. in flames in forum games, in the foundry, or even in some threads like spamalot there are people that have known eachother for a while and have established a relationship. they have unwritten rules and respect one another. when an outsider comes in without his homework done he is sometimes quickly removed. sometimes you just don't have the time or the patience to explain something over and over again especially if that something is easily available with a little research.

there's a big sticky in the foundry that explains how maps progress, there's also a sticky about map ideas. and yet people don't bother reading them and keep posting stupid things. like saying a map is bad after it is quenched or posting a new thread for an idea that's been repeated 100 times before instead of searching for it and posting in the ideas thread.

if i go in a mafia game thread and post nonsense because i didn't read the sticky about mafia games then i deserve to be flamed and removed.

those stickys are sets of official/unofficial rules that must be read by anybody that wants to post there. if he posts without reading he has no right to complain when he is flamed. when i came to this forum i read the forum guidelines before i posted. if everybody did that believe me it would be a much better place, not just in the foundry.

[The1exile]

I think what DiM is trying to say is that no matter how many times you tell people to RTFM (effectively), they ain't gonna.

[Coleman]

I put junk together all the time without reading the instructions. I often play maps without reading the instructions too...

Anyway, I think the solution is still that minds of the regulars need to morph a bit. If we can't be friendly to new people who maybe missed a rule or a guideline somewhere, then I don't see this place getting more new people very quickly.

[amazzony]

Thanks oaktown But I think that this is the area that will be untouched by me. I posted what I wanted to say and thought (so I gave my personal opinion and views why I don't hang around in here that much) and if I get this nice flame post by DIM then I don't know what happens if I'm gonna go and say something about his map

And DIM, the fact that you got flamed in flame wars... haven't you noticed that it's called a flame wars for a reason? I don't like that place either so I keep away from it. I don't play mafia so I stay away from it. I thought that I might like this place because actually people seem intelligent around here but I guess you are trying so badly to get rid of new faces so I understand that people don't want to come here (yes, one angry post might be intimidating enough).
And don't you think that if you wanted to learn how to play mafia then there would be people to give you help and hints? Or are you too afraid that they actually might be nice to you?

Darn, it is turning a flame in here, sorry 'bout it.

Cheers and good luck,
amazzony

[DiM]

I put junk together all the time without reading the instructions. I often play maps without reading the instructions too...

and when you lose because you haven't read the instructions do you think you have the right to complain?

Anyway, I think the solution is still that minds of the regulars need to morph a bit. If we can't be friendly to new people who maybe missed a rule or a guideline somewhere, then I don't see this place getting more new people very quickly.

true but that's not the only change required, i also believe the people that want to get involved in the foundry need to at least learn how the foundry works before they post anything. all the problems with foundry regulars being brutal towards outsiders come from the fact that they don't get informed before posting.
i don't have time to be nice and thoroughly explain each and every person what my map is about when they come and post "this is crap" especially since most of the times that will be their first and last post. why? not because i'm a bad guy but because i'd rather spend time making a map than explaining over and over again the same thing that can be easily be found by reading the map thread. i'll simply ignore a post that's useless or attack somebody that because of his ignorance and stupidity offends me.

if somebody comes and says that the bonuses on AoR are crap. i'll ask him why. if he comes and says "this sucks" i'll ignore him. and if he comes and says the map maker is an idiot for creating such a shitty map then i'll attack him.

simple as that. i don't have the time and patience to deal with those guys in a diplomatic way and write pages of explanations because he didn't bother to read the map thread.

[Coleman]

I appreciate that you don't have the time. It isn't in your job description. That's what I'll need to do, but it would be nice if you made a little effort, or showed a little constraint sometimes.

I see where you're coming from. Hopefully this issue will work itself out over time. I like that we are all at least talking about it.

[DiM]

Thanks oaktown But I think that this is the area that will be untouched by me. I posted what I wanted to say and thought (so I gave my personal opinion and views why I don't hang around in here that much) and if I get this nice flame post by DIM then I don't know what happens if I'm gonna go and say something about his map

where the heck did i flame you?
i didn't say a single bad word in my previous post and even more i haven't even mentioned your name?

and please do go and comment on my map. any comment is welcome as long as it meets some standards. standards that are obvious if you read the stickies around the foundry. standards that are simple common sense.

And DIM, the fact that you got flamed in flame wars... haven't you noticed that it's called a flame wars for a reason? I don't like that place either so I keep away from it. I don't play mafia so I stay away from it.

i was trying to prove another point. the fact that in some forums there are regular users and that they tend to fend off outsiders that don't bother reading the guidelines.

I thought that I might like this place because actually people seem intelligent around here but I guess you are trying so badly to get rid of new faces so I understand that people don't want to come here (yes, one angry post might be intimidating enough).

i'm not trying to get rid of new faces at all. since i've been here people have been coming and going, i've seen hundreds of maps started and dozens of maps finished. i'm one of the most active posters of the foundry and i've given feedback in almost all the maps. i've helped people via pm via mail or in chat. heck i've even received a warning for giving too much feedback because i took my time and made tutorials and posted them to help map makers. if i see a person that tries and really wants to make a map i'll try my best to help him. in any way that i can. as i said from simple feedback posting in his map thread to tutorials via pm or mail and even designing graphic parts for them to use. i don't ask everybody to do all this but i ask them to at least give proper feedback.

and about the intimidating angry posts you assume i so gladly spread around, i have to tell you that if somebody can't handle constructive criticism even if it is written in a more brutal way than he surely won't cope with the stupid posts he'll encounter later. if i go on a rant and make an essay and thoroughly explain a guy all the flaws in his map he will be offended. would it be better if i simply posted "you suck and your map sucks"?? i've been told that.

And don't you think that if you wanted to learn how to play mafia then there would be people to give you help and hints? Or are you too afraid that they actually might be nice to you?

Darn, it is turning a flame in here, sorry 'bout it.

Cheers and good luck,
amazzony

if i wanted to learn mafia i'll read the sticky.
and if i still have several concerns i'll start a help me topic.
but i surely won't go in the middle of a mafia thread and say:
"i don't understand anything that goes on in here because this is a stupid game played by idiots."

if i go and say that do you think those guys will:

a. greet me into their game and patiently respond all my answers?
b. tell me to f*ck off.

i vote b.

[DiM]

I appreciate that you don't have the time. It isn't in your job description. That's what I'll need to do, but it would be nice if you made a little effort, or showed a little constraint sometimes.

I see where you're coming from. Hopefully this issue will work itself out over time. I like that we are all at least talking about it.

yeah it would be nice. but i guess it would be nice if stupid posters or constant whiners would make an effort too.

and i don't think the issue will work over time. i haven't been in the foundry for so long but i've seen people come and go whine and leave or defeat the odds and stay to become a valuable member of the foundry. i have seen that every once in a while some sort of discussion like this arises. then it dies and things get back to normal. very rarely we have here something really big something that changes how things work at least in a little way.

[Coleman]

Do with this what you will:


All it shows me is Classic is obviously the most played map (and the oldest, age wasn't considered here) and that classic maps get more play on average but 99 average pages per abstract map is nothing to scoff at.

[amazzony]

Hey, yeah, sorry about that, DiM, it was just after my post so I thought that you are expressing all your anger against n00bs and I got the sh*tflow (sorry 'bout that but it was a bit like that). But your posts are aggressive and not welcoming (and I know that you are proud of your style or how you are but if you don't want the whole work load that Coleman is doing then don't take yourself that big responsibility. Yes, it seems that you are trying to do a lot more than you should).
The fact that there are a lot of idiots out there who just have their opinion without ideas and a capability to spam doesn't mean that everybody are like that. And I do understand that you are mad that you do and do and do (aka help and help and help) and there are still so many who take all that you give but won't give anything in return. And it doesn't how much you help there always seems to be more people left who need more help.
But lighten up It's still part of the game and yes, you are spending your time to make it better but you get a lot back and you shouldn't forget it.

And you know very well that if somebody pops into your thread to tell that the map sucks then he wont come back to explain. So, ignore it. It isn't taking any of your energy nor time to ignore posts. Or, if you don't like ignoring then it ain't hurting to post an answer "Why?" as you are doing (if I understood correctly).
Also, people have ideas and suggestions and opinions about maps and they want to express them. And sometimes they might seem stupid or not meets your standards because people don't have that much experience (or will never have understandings of some things like you do because they haven't worked with the tools of map making) but it doesn't mean that they shouldn't be given a chance to post them.
Why am I saying it? Because you are friggin scary. If I'm not sure of my suggestion about a map then I'm not gonna post it because I'm scared that it will get flamed down just because it didn't meet your standards. And I will never know if that idea was worth anything or not. And you will never get good ideas from somebody else who isn't constant Foundry person (of course, maybe there are all awful ideas outside).

Point of my post? No idea. Just sharing some thoughts. Hopefully they'll meet this forums standards.

random ranter,
amazzony

[Coleman]

Hopefully they'll meet this forums standards.

First thing we need to fix. This forum does not have standards of any kind in random General Map Foundry topics, asside from the forum guidelines in effect everywhere on the site.

In map topics a post must help or be in consideration of the map and/or another poster in the topic and must not be flames/trollish/spam.

[spinwizard]

Mah, I think it is good that this issue is being discussed

[spinwizard]

And DIM, any chance u will stop being so bloody AGRESSIVE!

[The1exile]

if i wanted to learn mafia i'll read the sticky.

Actually, I don't think the sticky has info on how to play. But please do sign up for a game some time, there's C9 games for new players often and it's always nice to have new faces

[/threadjack]

[spinwizard]

if i wanted to learn mafia i'll read the sticky.

Actually, I don't think the sticky has info on how to play. But please do sign up for a game some time, there's C9 games for new players often and it's always nice to have new faces

[/threadjack]

yes, It would be nice to have u around...

[Coleman]

I need an iPhone, then I could be, like, super moderator. There's wifi almost everywhere in the U.S.

...

[/threadjack]

[DiM]

And DIM, any chance u will stop being so bloody AGRESSIVE!

not really. sorry. that's how i am and i can't change over night.

[DiM]

Why am I saying it? Because you are friggin scary. If I'm not sure of my suggestion about a map then I'm not gonna post it because I'm scared that it will get flamed down just because it didn't meet your standards.

actually the thing is like this.
if you have an idea and share it i won't flame you no matter how stupid it is or how many times i've heard it before IF you meet a simple condition. ready for this? simple: post it where it should be posted.

1. we have an ideas subforum so if you have one go there. never post an idea in the main foundry
2. once you go to the ideas sub-forum you have to ask yourself a simple question. do i want to make this map or do i just want to suggest it so that other can do it?? if you can do it then post a new thread with clear details about the idea and a rough sketch. if you can't do it then post in the map ideas thread.

i hate it when a guy comes and makes yet another thread about a human brain map, or keyboard or starwars and he posts it to suggest it not to make it. it floods the ideas forum with nonsense. it's like the suggestions forum. want to suggest something use the form. or the cheaters forum. want to report a cheater use the form. simple. and it saves a lot of time both for the mods that have to clean the mess but also for the people that browse the forums looking for maps. if a stranger comes to the ideas forum and sees 20 stupid threads he will leave and he might miss on that one thread that is actually serious.

[amazzony]

So where are your standards posted? And why are you lecturing me? Have I posted something that was in the wrong place? I came here to give my opinion as a neutral person so this place would see that not the whole CC is against what's going on in here, that it would get a bit balanced because everybody else seem to be come here flaming. And now I get a lecture how to post and where and what. Didn't ask that Though I was about to ask more about Foundry after oaktown's very nice post and friendly post.

Regards,
amazzony