Israel Plans to Restore Death Penalty for Everyone but Jews

[Metsfanmax]

Here's another angle: let's grant that Hamas wants more of their civilians to die. Is that believable? Why do you think so?

1. How does killing one's civilians maximize the Hamas government's revenues?

2. What's the marginal benefit of a civilian killed by an airstrike? E.g. would Hamas be materially and non-monetarily satisfied if 1000 civilians died? How about 2000? What about 2 million? Surely, there's some limit here (where the marginal costs become greater than the marginal benefit). If this limit is hit by Israeli airstrikes killing civilians--regardless of what Hamas tells the people to do, then wouldn't Hamas not need to implement some odd policy to get more civilians killed? Surely, 200 dead civilians is a story in itself--even 1000. Does Hamas really need to help Israeli in killing Palestinian civilians in order to attain some perverted, ulterior goal? (I don't think so).

3. If you believe that Hamas is intentionally trying to kill more of their civilians, then how do you know that you're not subject to the "Fundamental Attribution Error"? FAE is when one tends to attribute the behavior of others as due to dispositional causes (e.g. personality, characteristics, intentions) while one's own behavior is attributed to situational causes (e.g. limited choices, environmental constraints, necessity).

e.g. "Hamas wants its civilians to die because they're irrational/crazy and they don't care. Israel faces serious constraints when bombing crucial targets in Gaza, so collateral damage is necessary." (Ever see that logic repeated anywhere? Think about the possibility of FAE next time).

The argument being made in the article, I think, is that Hamas is acting quite rationally. If telling citizens to stay in its homes maximizes the civilian death toll*, then that is going to get the West riled up against Israel and mount the international pressure to stop the campaign. Israel is already claiming to be preparing a ground offensive; Hamas knows that this campaign isn't going to just magically go away. So it very well may be in their interests to use human shields as a propaganda tactic to force Israel to stop. So the argument isn't that Hamas wants its civilians to die, but that if they are going to die in an Israeli assault, they might want them to die as fast and as publicly as possible so that the damage to Hamas infrastructure is minimized.

I don't have the answers to your other questions; I haven't spent any time looking into how thorough the information campaign is on the Israeli part, and how effective it could be in principle. I just thought it was interesting to point out what Hamas is doing in response to the attacks.

*I'm not sure about this. The Israelis do seem to take extra efforts to notify the areas that are about to be bombed but it's not clear whether that's effective enough to save lives if the information was heeded. Saxi's argument about Israeli advice to its own citizens doesn't necessarily carry over because Israel doesn't know where Hamas rockets are aimed before they're launched, so the possible window of time for civilians to move out of an area is probably significantly smaller. Keep in mind that your argument about the fundamental attribution error also applies to the Israelis. Israel isn't necessarily a monster that disregards the worth of Palestinian civilians -- they very well could be taking seriously the civilian casualty cost.

[mrswdk]

Why not just get out of there and let them shoot each other to pieces? What's their sad little conflict got to do with any of us?

[Ray Rider]

The contrast between Israel and Jordan is striking. It's the difference between a first world country and a third world country. Israel is like any other European country or Canadian/US province/state; Jordan is like Mexico.

I bet Savannah, Georgia in 1859 was lovely, too, with the sprawling country estates and refined society.

That said, have a good trip.

Thanks! I bet Rome had some lovely estates in 153 AD as well but that has nothing to do with the current discussion either.

If I had to guess, the evacuation notice program is really just a marketing tactic to convince Isrealis and also the West that the Israeli government really, really, really cares about minimizing civilian deaths. Has the Israeli government conducted any proper study to determine how effective this program is? How severely, if at all, do they punish their own people for bombing the wrong targets or for sending notices to the wrong areas? (C'mon... are governments the epitome of proper reward-and-punishment systems for killing enemy civilians?)

Would a country which allegedly cares so much about civilians perpetuate an embargo that impoverishes and kills the very same people? Denying people medicine and basic goods (or at least restricting their supply so that prices are very high) for years has been crushing and killing these people. Does such a policy convince you that the Israeli government really cares about Palestinian civilians in Gaza City?

Let's get real.

Mets already responded to most of this but I wanted to mention a couple things:
1. Look at the numbers. Over 1,000 Israeli airstrikes so far and just over 100 deaths. If the Israelis seriously weren't trying to avoid unnecessary death or (God forbid) were intentionally targeting innocent civilians, shouldn't the number of deaths be MUCH higher? Or are you saying the Israelis have terrible aim? Seems to me like they're doing an exceptional job of keeping the death count low.

2. What do you say about the Palestinians leaders who openly condone on television the use of human shields?


3. Why are you focussed on Israel's blockade of Gaza when Egypt, a fellow Arab & Muslim nation, has been maintaining a blockade against Gaza? If there were legitimate reason to end the blockade, wouldn't Egypt be the first to do so? And related to that, Israel has continued to allow aid to enter Gaza--200 trucks yesterday alone--in spite of the situation. I can't think of any other nation on earth that would continue to supply their enemy while their enemy refuses peace and keeps on firing at them.


On an unrelated note, today we traveled to northern Israel and saw the border with Lebanon and the border with Syria, along with the UN observation site there. We could hear the booming sounds from the ongoing conflict in Syria, and only after returning to our rooms did we learn that rocketfire had been exchanged over the Lebanon border as well.

[BigBallinStalin]

The contrast between Israel and Jordan is striking. It's the difference between a first world country and a third world country. Israel is like any other European country or Canadian/US province/state; Jordan is like Mexico.

I bet Savannah, Georgia in 1859 was lovely, too, with the sprawling country estates and refined society.

That said, have a good trip.

Thanks! I bet Rome had some lovely estates in 153 AD as well but that has nothing to do with the current discussion either.

If I had to guess, the evacuation notice program is really just a marketing tactic to convince Isrealis and also the West that the Israeli government really, really, really cares about minimizing civilian deaths. Has the Israeli government conducted any proper study to determine how effective this program is? How severely, if at all, do they punish their own people for bombing the wrong targets or for sending notices to the wrong areas? (C'mon... are governments the epitome of proper reward-and-punishment systems for killing enemy civilians?)

Would a country which allegedly cares so much about civilians perpetuate an embargo that impoverishes and kills the very same people? Denying people medicine and basic goods (or at least restricting their supply so that prices are very high) for years has been crushing and killing these people. Does such a policy convince you that the Israeli government really cares about Palestinian civilians in Gaza City?

Let's get real.

Mets already responded to most of this but I wanted to mention a couple things:
1. Look at the numbers. Over 1,000 Israeli airstrikes so far and just over 100 deaths. If the Israelis seriously weren't trying to avoid unnecessary death or (God forbid) were intentionally targeting innocent civilians, shouldn't the number of deaths be MUCH higher? Or are you saying the Israelis have terrible aim? Seems to me like they're doing an exceptional job of keeping the death count low.

2. What do you say about the Palestinians leaders who openly condone on television the use of human shields?


3. Why are you focussed on Israel's blockade of Gaza when Egypt, a fellow Arab & Muslim nation, has been maintaining a blockade against Gaza? If there were legitimate reason to end the blockade, wouldn't Egypt be the first to do so? And related to that, Israel has continued to allow aid to enter Gaza--200 trucks yesterday alone--in spite of the situation. I can't think of any other nation on earth that would continue to supply their enemy while their enemy refuses peace and keeps on firing at them.


On an unrelated note, today we traveled to northern Israel and saw the border with Lebanon and the border with Syria, along with the UN observation site there. We could hear the booming sounds from the ongoing conflict in Syria, and only after returning to our rooms did we learn that rocketfire had been exchanged over the Lebanon border as well.

RE: 1, 1000 airstrikes and 100 dead. How many airstrikes were conducted by NATO against Libya and how many civilians did that kill? If the dead civilian-to-airstrike ratios are the same, then it would suggest that evacuation notices have no effect. Without this kind of a comparison (especially with a larger dataset), then your conclusion lacks robust, empirical support.

2. That's not cool.

3. I'm not sure why Egypt does that. Maybe there's some agreement between them and Israel? Maybe they don't want to get on Israel's shitlist or be accused by the US of aiding the transportation of terrorists to Gaza, which would threaten the US to Egypt billion dollar subsidy? I dunno.

RE: airstrikes, these are the relevant questions:
viewtopic.php?f=8&t=205619&start=200#p4520222

without the answers, any conclusion seems shaky at best.

[a6mzero]

72 reported civilian deaths from Nato airstrikes in Libya. Population density is 50 per km in Libya.648 per km in Gaza.

[patches70]

3. I'm not sure why Egypt does that. Maybe there's some agreement between them and Israel? Maybe they don't want to get on Israel's shitlist or be accused by the US of aiding the transportation of terrorists to Gaza, which would threaten the US to Egypt billion dollar subsidy? I dunno.

There might be agreements with Israel, I dunno, but it's not surprising that Egypt doesn't like Hamas very much. Hamas started out as an offshoot of the Muslim Brotherhood and as you know the ruling class in Egypt doesn't like the Muslim Brotherhood very much. By very much I mean not at all. In fact, after Morsi was removed the Egyptian military leader went ahead and banned the Muslim Brotherhood all together.

So it's no surprise at all that Egypt tells Hamas and the Palestinians to f*ck off.

[GabonX]

If Israel disarmed they would suffer a bloodletting that would make the holocaust pale in comparison.

. Besides, Arab peoples have only ever wanted peace with Israel and have never behaved aggressively toward it except in response to direct provocation.

ROFL

That's correct.

700 to ~1900 (1100 years): no conflict between Arabs and Hebrews

1948: Israel unilaterally declares independence in violation of the UN partition proposal; the Arab League sends a letter to the UN providing the legally required notification that the league is required to respond to the violation of the negotiations - the Arab Legion, under the command of Sir John Bagot Glubb, enters Israel to enforce international law ... Israel wins by committing a variety of atrocities and violations of the rules of war

1956: Israel launches a surprise attack on Egypt and is the first to fire; Egypt defeats Israel with U.S. and Soviet assistance

1967: Israel launches a surprise attack on Egypt and is the first to fire; Israel takes several colonial possessions and refuses to return them despite UN demands

1973: Egypt and Syria fire first but in a conflict whose stated objective is to recover the land captured by Israel and declared by the UN to be occupied illegally by the Zionists

1981: Israel bombs Iraq, despite not having been attacked by Iraq, in violation of international law

2007: Israel bombs Syria, despite not having been attacked by Syria, in violation of international law

Thanks for the info Saxi. Take a look at this!

[saxitoxin]

Hamas was banned by President Nasser. When Israel invaded Gaza, they lifted the ban on Hamas with the goal of undermining Fatah. One of many instances where Israel has actively promoted Islamic fundamentalism to erode the power of secular Arab movements.

[patches70]

Hamas was banned by President Nasser. When Israel invaded Gaza, they lifted the ban on Hamas with the goal of undermining Fatah. One of many instances where Israel has actively promoted Islamic fundamentalism to erode the power of secular Arab movements.

Ok, but does that mean that Egypt doesn't hate Hamas? I don't think so, Egypt doesn't trust Hamas, the Muslim Brotherhood and for whatever reason, are always trying to purge themselves of their influence. Thus, the reason why Egypt rebuffs the Gaza strips calls to open the borders to allow people to flee from the bombing into Egypt. Being as 6 out of every 10 Palestinians support and align with Hamas, Egypt sure as hell won't let them into their borders if they can help it.

The Muslim Brotherhood formed I think in the 50's, in Egypt and have been a thorn in the side of the Egyptian ruling class ever since. I don't know if what you say about Nassar in regards to Hamas is true or not, but I take your word for it. The animosity between Egypt and Hamas is enough to explain Egypt's actions without having to try and toss Israel into the conspiracy, IMO.

Israel bombs Gaza, people say "why won't Egypt open their border to allow Palestinians to flee the bombing?" and it's because Egypt hates Hamas and doesn't trust that those fleeing refugees won't become involved in Egyptian society to undermine the power of the ruling Egyptian elite. It's pretty simple.

Egypt didn't seal the border with Gaza to help Israel, they did it to help themselves. It just is what it is I guess, that's all I'm saying, trying to answer BBS' question as to why Egypt sealed the border with Gaza and won't open it.

[Ray Rider]

Hamas was banned by President Nasser. When Israel invaded Gaza, they lifted the ban on Hamas with the goal of undermining Fatah. One of many instances where Israel has actively promoted Islamic fundamentalism to erode the power of secular Arab movements.

Ok, but does that mean that Egypt doesn't hate Hamas? I don't think so, Egypt doesn't trust Hamas, the Muslim Brotherhood and for whatever reason, are always trying to purge themselves of their influence. Thus, the reason why Egypt rebuffs the Gaza strips calls to open the borders to allow people to flee from the bombing into Egypt. Being as 6 out of every 10 Palestinians support and align with Hamas, Egypt sure as hell won't let them into their borders if they can help it.

The Muslim Brotherhood formed I think in the 50's, in Egypt and have been a thorn in the side of the Egyptian ruling class ever since. I don't know if what you say about Nassar in regards to Hamas is true or not, but I take your word for it. The animosity between Egypt and Hamas is enough to explain Egypt's actions without having to try and toss Israel into the conspiracy, IMO.

Israel bombs Gaza, people say "why won't Egypt open their border to allow Palestinians to flee the bombing?" and it's because Egypt hates Hamas and doesn't trust that those fleeing refugees won't become involved in Egyptian society to undermine the power of the ruling Egyptian elite. It's pretty simple.

Egypt didn't seal the border with Gaza to help Israel, they did it to help themselves. It just is what it is I guess, that's all I'm saying, trying to answer BBS' question as to why Egypt sealed the border with Gaza and won't open it.

If one of Egypt's main problems with Gaza is the Muslim Brotherhood, wouldn't Morsi (as a member of the Muslim Brotherhood) have opened the border as rapidly as possible to gain more supporters for his cause when he came to power in 2012? Or is Hamas that much of a deterrent that it still prevented him from helping out his fellow Brothers?

[BigBallinStalin]

Why do you think they're "fellow brothers"? If you hear about two gangs shooting different cops in different neighborhoods, do you assume both gangs are "fellow brothers"? Organizations that are Islamic and that fund terrorism don't automatically like each other. It's not like they all get a Muslim Terrorist Triple-A membership card.

They play political games very differently. The Muslim Brotherhood (MB) disavowed terrorism decades ago, and before that it funded a group within it for such operations. The rest of the MB has and still does act as a government: funding education, providing health care, etc.

Hamas is (amusingly) a democratically elected group which is constantly at war with Israel. Hamas has yet to disavow terrorist tactics (as if it would matter).

The Muslim Brotherhood was more preoccupied with consolidating control over the country. So, you're right. It costs resources (money, political, etc.) to do anything politically, so opening up the Gaza blockade and dealing with that mess (and with Israel) would be a very low priority.

[patches70]

If one of Egypt's main problems with Gaza is the Muslim Brotherhood,

No, not only does Egypt have a problem with the Muslim Brotherhood (in Egypt particularly), they have a problem with Hamas in Gaza. If the Muslim Brotherhood, Hamas or whomever wants to muck around in Gaza, Egypt doesn't give a shit, so long as they stay out of Egypt.

wouldn't Morsi (as a member of the Muslim Brotherhood) have opened the border as rapidly as possible to gain more supporters for his cause when he came to power in 2012?

Power? Morsi never had any power except the power to have bread and circuses. Egypt is and has been ruled by the Egyptian military. And they don't like the MB, Hamas, Hezbollah. Not so much over ideological stances (there is a bit of that as well) but more because the Egyptian military doesn't like rivals when it comes to actual power in Egypt.

Or is Hamas that much of a deterrent that it still prevented him from helping out his fellow Brothers?

One of the many charges Morsi was charged with was espionage with Hamas, among other groups. No, the moment Morsi tried to open borders or welcome Hamas supporters from Gaza into Egypt would be the instant the Egyptian military would come for him. Morsi tried to be a bit more subtle, a bit more sneaky, and it got him where he is now, in prison and the Egyptian military went on a massive crackdown on the Muslim Brotherhood.

We have to remember, when Morsi was running for President he appeared as moderate, secular even distanced himself from the Muslim Brotherhood. When he got elected he tried to take more power than the Egyptian military allowed him and started putting MB agents into government positions until it got to the point that the military felt he had to be removed along with anyone else associated with the MB within the government. When Morsi started trying to get Egypt involved in Syria was the last straw for the Egyptian military, but Morsi had been stepping in it plenty long before then.
He lasted just a few weeks over a year as President before the Egyptian military launched the coup restored democracy (heh heh, yep, that's how Sec of State Kerry characterized Morsi's fall).


Naw, the Egyptian military isn't going to tolerate Hamas, the Muslim Brotherhood or anything else that is going to get Egypt embroiled in all the stuff going on in the region. Egypt has a sweet deal by staying out of it all. It's in their interests to stay out of Israel's way and protect their own power. Aligning with Hamas and the Palestinians would only put the Egyptian military's rule into jeopardy down the road.

[Phatscotty]

Hamas was banned by President Nasser. When Israel invaded Gaza, they lifted the ban on Hamas with the goal of undermining Fatah. One of many instances where Israel has actively promoted Islamic fundamentalism to erode the power of secular Arab movements.

Ok, but does that mean that Egypt doesn't hate Hamas? I don't think so, Egypt doesn't trust Hamas, the Muslim Brotherhood and for whatever reason, are always trying to purge themselves of their influence. Thus, the reason why Egypt rebuffs the Gaza strips calls to open the borders to allow people to flee from the bombing into Egypt. Being as 6 out of every 10 Palestinians support and align with Hamas, Egypt sure as hell won't let them into their borders if they can help it.

The Muslim Brotherhood formed I think in the 50's, in Egypt and have been a thorn in the side of the Egyptian ruling class ever since. I don't know if what you say about Nassar in regards to Hamas is true or not, but I take your word for it. The animosity between Egypt and Hamas is enough to explain Egypt's actions without having to try and toss Israel into the conspiracy, IMO.

Israel bombs Gaza, people say "why won't Egypt open their border to allow Palestinians to flee the bombing?" and it's because Egypt hates Hamas and doesn't trust that those fleeing refugees won't become involved in Egyptian society to undermine the power of the ruling Egyptian elite. It's pretty simple.

Egypt didn't seal the border with Gaza to help Israel, they did it to help themselves. It just is what it is I guess, that's all I'm saying, trying to answer BBS' question as to why Egypt sealed the border with Gaza and won't open it.

sealing their border/not letting anyone who wants to come in in. WHY HOW EVIL!

[BigBallinStalin]

PS, are you making a comparison between Egypt's border policy WITH GAZA and the US border with Mexicon (and Canada)?

Let's be clear. Let's end your incessant bullshitting.

[Phatscotty]

PS, are you making a comparison between Egypt's border policy WITH GAZA and the US border with Mexicon (and Canada)?

Let's be clear. Let's end your incessant bullshitting.

Don't wanna derail, so come with it in the other thread if you want, just making a statement against the knee-jerk reactionists who don't think there are any legitimate reasons for a country to have secure borders

[BigBallinStalin]

PS, are you making a comparison between Egypt's border policy WITH GAZA and the US border with Mexicon (and Canada)?

Let's be clear. Let's end your incessant bullshitting.

Don't wanna derail, so come with it in the other thread if you want, just making a statement against the knee-jerk reactionists who don't think there are any legitimate reasons for a country to have secure borders

1. What is the optimal amount of security required to obtain "secure borders"?

2. And... why? What are the costs and benefits of such a policy?

[mrswdk]

What are the costs and benefits of such a policy?

It would lessen the risk of cocaine gangs abducting America's daughters and forcing them into sexual slavery.

If that policy were to save even one young girl from such a fate, it would be worth it.

[BigBallinStalin]

What are the costs and benefits of such a policy?

It would lessen the risk of cocaine gangs abducting America's daughters and forcing them into sexual slavery.

If that policy were to save even one young girl from such a fate, it would be worth it.

OH really? You must ask yourself: at what price? Suppose it took $50 billion per year to attain your goal. Would you still think the same? That money could've been spent saving many other lives instead.

It's all about the opportunity cost, biaaatch!!!

On a more serious note, any stance on immigration policy should also consider the BENEFITS--e.g. letting poor people attain a greater standard of living at a greater likelihood and at shorter amount of time. We're assuming the goal is to reduce poverty and to bring Americans lower priced goods so that they can spend more money on other possibly essential goods. The benefits should always be weighed against the possibility of cocained sex slaves (which if true is unfortunately an unintended consequence of the US' war on drugs).

On a more poignant note, BRING IT, YOU DIRTY CHINESE NATIONALIST!! BRING THE NOISE!!!

[mrswdk]

'Opportunity cost!' cried BBS as he tossed another of his neighbour's children to her new Middle Eastern pimp. 'Profit margin!' he cackled as he fed the old and the infirm into his wood chipper. The sick song of Adam Smith playing in Biebs' indifferent mind, all around him choking on the putrid stench of capitalism.

[DoomYoshi]

So is Saigon in Iraq or Israel? What other countries start with I? Nobody talking about the Indonesian elections?

[patches70]

'Opportunity cost!' cried BBS as he tossed another of his neighbour's children to her new Middle Eastern pimp.

I don't think you know what "opportunity cost" means. At least in this sentence you've completely misused the definition.

[saxitoxin]

A few highlights from the weekend of the global outrage sweeping the world over Israel's ethnic cleansing operation.

In Sydney, thousands of average Australian families marched through the streets demanding the downfall of Israel.

"Down, down, Israel!


Orhodox Jews in Montreal called an emergency protest to denounce "Israel" and wave Palestinian flags.

"Jews lived for centuries in Muslim countries in peace. This was changed in the 1920s when Zionism first came up and caused this conflict."


A pro-Palestine / anti-Israel motorcycle rally through central London!

"beep beep"

[warmonger1981]

Do a history search on France, Germany, and Russia. Judeo-Masonic world government conspiracy in the 1800's. I'm pretty sure the 19th century was filled with antisemitic themes. The czars of Russia were not fond of Jews ( Black Russia) nor was Italy. Jews have been made out to be bad guys for long time. Why the long hatred for Jews and a world government conspiracy?

[AndyDufresne]

Minorities are usually safe scapegoats.


--Andy

[muy_thaiguy]

Minorities are usually safe scapegoats.


--Andy

Pretty much. Jews in particular in Europe and the Middle East going back centuries.