Proteins 101 <v.24 - new gameplay? *POLL!*> p1, p13

[jpcloet]

In terms of graphics, the recent color changes are good. In terms of game-play, it seems very circular and lacks small bonuses. I'm curious what other maps out there have similar gameplay.

[natty dread]

it seems very circular and lacks small bonuses.

I have some small boni! Hold 2 nitrogens +1, hold 3 nitrogens +2, hold 4 oxygens for +2.

Also alanine +3.

But what do you suggest to do about it? I've added a new bond between alanine and proline. Also, what do you think about the idea of bombardment between adjacent amides nitrogens?

[jpcloet]

I think it will play similarly to Solar System....

[natty dread]

Is that a good thing or a bad thing?

[ender516]

Here is the first version of the XML, initially produced in large part using Premier2k's XML Tool:

http://www.fileden.com/files/2009/11/9/2644838/Proteins_101.xml

I decided to put in the A4 - P6 bond while I was at it. It's easy enough to remove again if it comes to that.

Jota's Map Assistant was a great help for adding the coordinates.

I have run it through the XML tester on the Conquer Club Map Maker page, and it is clean. The Map Inspect tool on that same page looks very good, and kevinc's XML Map Reader also agrees. That tool is particularly good for this map, because it draws lines between adjacent troop numbers, and these correspond beautifully with the bonds.

[natty dread]

Nice! Just a couple of issues...

Change the territory "Iso-Pro" into "Ile-Pro", as it is the correct abbreviation code for isoleucine.

Also, you forgot to put in the connections between the blue nitrogens. As it says in the legend, all blue nitrogens can attack each other...

Then, this is just a matter of preference, but the bonus names "Any 3 Blue Nitrogens" and so on... think about what it sounds like, when in game it says "Player X receives 2 troops for holding Any 3 Blue Nitrogens"... I just think it would be better if it were simply "3 Blue Nitrogens", "4 Oxygens" and so on... For the 5 nitrogens and 8 oxygens, "All Blue Nitrogens" and "All Oxygens" should be fine.

Other than that, good work!

edit. found another glitch:

<name>Any 4 Oxygens</name>
<bonus>2</bonus>
−
<components>
<territory>Isoleucine 8</territory>
<territory>Proline 6</territory>
<territory>Glutamate 1</territory>
<territory>Glutamate 3</territory>
<territory>Glutamate 8</territory>
<territory>Tryptophan 13</territory>
<territory>Histidine 9</territory>
<territory>Alanine 5</territory>
</components>
</continent>

"Required" tag missing from all oxygen bonuses.

Also, Oxygens should be coded as starting positions - so each player gets the same amount of them - and blue nitrogens should be coded as neutrals.


XML test:

Click image to enlarge.

[ender516]

Nice! Just a couple of issues...

Change the territory "Iso-Pro" into "Ile-Pro", as it is the correct abbreviation code for isoleucine.

Sorry, you're right, you mentioned that in your PM, and it's right there on the map. Fixed.

Also, you forgot to put in the connections between the blue nitrogens. As it says in the legend, all blue nitrogens can attack each other...

I know HOW to read, I just don't seem to know WHEN to read... Fixed.

Then, this is just a matter of preference, but the bonus names "Any 3 Blue Nitrogens" and so on... think about what it sounds like, when in game it says "Player X receives 2 troops for holding Any 3 Blue Nitrogens"... I just think it would be better if it were simply "3 Blue Nitrogens", "4 Oxygens" and so on... For the 5 nitrogens and 8 oxygens, "All Blue Nitrogens" and "All Oxygens" should be fine.

Agreed. Fixed.

Other than that, good work!

Thank you.

edit. found another glitch:

<name>Any 4 Oxygens</name>
<bonus>2</bonus>
−
<components>
<territory>Isoleucine 8</territory>
<territory>Proline 6</territory>
<territory>Glutamate 1</territory>
<territory>Glutamate 3</territory>
<territory>Glutamate 8</territory>
<territory>Tryptophan 13</territory>
<territory>Histidine 9</territory>
<territory>Alanine 5</territory>
</components>
</continent>

"Required" tag missing from all oxygen bonuses.

Fixed.

Also, Oxygens should be coded as starting positions - so each player gets the same amount of them - and blue nitrogens should be coded as neutrals.

I don't recall hearing about these features, but no problem, they seem like the right thing to do. Implemented, with (default) starting values of 3 for all of them.

Here is the new link: Proteins_101_Rev_1.1.xml

[natty dread]

Great! Everything seems to be in check now. Good job!

Although, your job (and mine) may have been for nothing... People have recently been saying that this map isn't popular enough to leave the drafting room. Well, if that is the case, then there's nothing I can do about it. I'll still develop this map, if there is any chance that this map will ever see it's way to main foundry, but I don't like doing useless work.

[slowreactor]

Great! Everything seems to be in check now. Good job!

Although, your job (and mine) may have been for nothing... People have recently been saying that this map isn't popular enough to leave the drafting room. Well, if that is the case, then there's nothing I can do about it. I'll still develop this map, if there is any chance that this map will ever see it's way to main foundry, but I don't like doing useless work.

Don't give up hope!

[natty dread]

Don't give up hope!

Thanks. Do you have any suggestions on how to improve the map?

[jpcloet]

This is looking really solid.

I would start going after the minor tweaks.

Eg.

Some territory labels are obscured by shadows, I'd move some slightly.

Also the legend on the right could be moved more to the right, a little squished.

[natty dread]

This is looking really solid.

I would start going after the minor tweaks.

Eg.

Some territory labels are obscured by shadows, I'd move some slightly.

I don't know, I kinda like them being under the shadow, it adds to the 3d illusion somewhat... but I guess I could move them a little, so that they are only partially covered by the shadow.

Also the legend on the right could be moved more to the right, a little squished.

Will do.

[natty dread]

How's this? It was difficult to accomplish, and I had to make some compromises, but I managed to move them away from the shadows somewhat. It's hard because they need to be close enough to the atoms so you can tell which name belongs to which atom...

Rearranged the legend a bit, so it should fit better now. Some continent names rearranged as well.

Now that I think of it, this update is actually nothing but a big rearrangement... it shouldn't even have a whole new version number! Oh well, what's done is done...

Click image to enlarge.

oh, btw, about the idea of bombardment between amide nitrogens, I'll probably discard that idea. Now that I've thought of it, it would seem out of place, just a gimmick that was glued on the map for no other purpose than to have a gimmick on the gameplay.


btw2: with the starting positions & neutrals, the starting territories would go as follows:

(54 territories, out of which 5 blue nitrogens (neutral) and 8 oxygens (starting pos.) = 41 normal territories)

2 players: 13 normal territories each, 15 neutral normal territories, 4 oxygens each, 5 neutral blue nitrogens = 20 neutrals, 17 territories each

3 players: 13 normal territories each, 2 neutral normal territories, 2 oxygens each, 2 neutral oxygens, 5 neutral blue n:s = 9 neutrals, 15 territories each

4 players: 10 normal territories each, 1 neutral normal territory, 2 oxygens each, 5 neutral blue n:s = 6 neutrals, 12 territories each

5 players: 8 normal territories each, 1 neutral normal, 1 oxygen each, 3 neutral oxygens, 5 neutral blue n:s = 9 neutrals, 9 territories each

6 players: 6 normal territories each, 5 neutral normals, 1 oxygen each, 2 neutral oxygens, 5 neutral blues = 12 neutrals, 7 territories each

7 players: 5 normal territories each, 6 neutral normals, 1 oxygen each, 1 neutral oxygen, 5 neutral blues = 12 neutrals, 6 territories each

8 players: 5 normal territories each, 1 neutral normal, 1 oxygen each, 5 neutral blues = 6 neutrals, 6 territories each

How's that?

[ender516]

I am preparing a lengthy response to this, but I hope to get a ruling from the line judge before I sound off. See here for my question (and with luck and time, a reply). For now, I will just point out that I have not coded the oxygens as neutrals, so leftover start positions are dealt out to the players, not (necessarily) neutral.

[natty dread]

For now, I will just point out that I have not coded the oxygens as neutrals, so leftover start positions are dealt out to the players, not (necessarily) neutral.

Is that so? I thought that leftover starting points were always started as neutral.

[captainwalrus]

hmm...
Graphics wise, I kinda like it. It is pleasant to look at, and it all works well together. That bing said, I honestly don't think I would ever play it if it got quenched. I'm just not digging the concept of people fighting over atoms and such. To me it is nothing more than a fancy flowchart, not something that would be worth playing. It is the same thing with Poison Rome, it may be a fine map, but I just don't really see why I need to conquer a family tree.

[natty dread]

Well, maybe some day you'll get bored playing at the geographical maps, and think to yourself: heck, I might as well conquer a table full of playing cards, or a family tree, a crossword puzzle, a protein...

who knows.

[MrBenn]

First off, let me advise you that there isn't really much point working on XML until a map is showing signs of being ready for the Final Forge - primarily because until that point, anything and everything is likely to go through several major revisions - including coordinate locations, bonuses, region groupings, territory connections etc. etc... At this stage, it honestly is simply not worth the effort

As for the theme of the map itself, there have been several molecule-based map ideas/drafts - none of which have gained the support of the community. Here is a recent, graphically superior version - which suffered from lack of support.

The real way to measure the popularity of your idea, is to try and keep away from it for a few days - possibly up to a week - and see how many people pop in with genuine ideas/suggestions that are likely to help bring the map forward....

[natty dread]

This is graphically superior?

Click image to enlarge.

whatever... to me that image just screams, "change my colours, please! or I'll kill myself!"

[the.killing.44]

I don't see how it's graphically superior, but I do agree with the rest of Benn's post.

[natty dread]

Ok, I'm going to stop posting on this thread for a week. See what comes out of it.

[MrBenn]

graphically superior

I was referring to the 3D rendered style, which I think would be more fitting of an atomic-scale chemical compound/structure. The hair-splitting at this juncture is in any case moot... I have serious concerns that this map has reached 12 pages of discussion without any serious support, or proper discussion about gameplay direction...

[natty dread]

graphically superior

I was referring to the 3D rendered style, which I think would be more fitting of an atomic-scale chemical compound/structure.

What? Now I'm really not following you. What version of my map are you looking at?

Check out the latest version at page 1 and tell me you can't see the 3d rendered molecule in my map?

[MrBenn]

graphically superior

I was referring to the 3D rendered style, which I think would be more fitting of an atomic-scale chemical compound/structure.

What? Now I'm really not following you. What version of my map are you looking at?

Check out the latest version at page 1 and tell me you can't see the 3d rendered molecule in my map?

It's the juxtaposition of the 3D molecule and the 2D blackboard theme that jars.

The hair-splitting at this juncture is in any case moot... I have serious concerns that this map has reached 12 pages of discussion without any serious support, or proper discussion about gameplay direction...

[ender516]

First off, let me advise you that there isn't really much point working on XML until a map is showing signs of being ready for the Final Forge - primarily because until that point, anything and everything is likely to go through several major revisions - including coordinate locations, bonuses, region groupings, territory connections etc. etc... At this stage, it honestly is simply not worth the effort

I appreciate your concern that my efforts might be wasted, but with Premier2k's new XML Generator tool, and a map with so many regions and zones sharing similar names, it is really quite easy to generate the XML. A little careful use of the paste buffer allows rapid construction of the regions, then zones and connections are a matter of selecting from lists. Updates from this point are a simple matter of using a text editor, until the tool improves its ability to reload a previously generated file. Also, spelling out the XML can be a good way to ensure that everyone knows what gameplay is possible and what it is defined to be for the map in question.