More proof evolution fails

[tzor]

Tzor, you are thinking in modern times. In ancient times, work had a very different meaning indeed. LIfe was very, very hard and essentially constant. The idea of "vacations" was unknown. Even the idea of taking any time off, for many people, was a luxury. Ironically, life was likely not as hard physically as it is for many factory workers and other mostly blue collar workers (some "white collars") today, who often truly do NOT have a day off. At any rate, the Jewish idea of a full day of rest was phenomenal. And, an important institution. It "legalized" the necessity of at least some rest.

I think you are also thinking in modern terms as well. This is not about a "day off" but the complete elimination of all work, not only by the person, but by everyone in the community! "But the seventh day is a sabbath to the Lord your God; you shall not do any work—you, or your son or your daughter, or your male or female slave, or your ox or your donkey, or any of your livestock, or the resident alien in your towns, so that your male and female slave may rest as well as you." Not only is there is an absolute prohibition on any work, but other parts of the Torah make it clear this is a mandatory feast day and day of holy worship. The penalty is DEATH!

With that, let's lay out the ground rules. You can't carry anything outside of your house. You can't light a fire, or add fuel to a fire. You can't prepare or cook anything. You can't even put a fire out. Here is a more complete list of the things you can't do.

This actually results in MORE WORK, to be able to spend an entire day completely free from ANY WORK. This has nothing to do with "vacations" whatsoever.

When you get to modern times, it goes beyond bizzare into "you got to be kidding me" land. Riding an elevator is not technically "work" (apparently the elevator is not your ox) but pushing the button on the elevator is "work." So all elevators have to stop at every floor on the Sabbath.

[PLAYER57832]

Abiogenesis is the first step in the evolutionary theory and that has to be proven first in order to validate anything evolution, but it's a pretty far-fetched hypothesis, since a prokaryote would have to ingest another prokaryote without digesting the prokaryote so it can somehow function as an organelle (and this would have had to have been done several times to account for the multiple organelles of a eukaryote plus each ingested prokaryote would have had to have mutated differently to form the different organelles, plus somehow work together and still keep the prokaryote they've been ingested by alive, etc.) Abiogenesis, if you don't know or haven't already figured it out, is the evolution of the prokaryote (simple cell) into a eukaryote (cell with many different functioning parts called organelles). Anyways, I know this is slightly off-topic of what's currently being discussed, but I feel it still is relevant to the topic.

Sully

Who told you this is true? Because, most of what you wrote is just wrong.

First, evolution is a "top down", not "bottom up" theory. So, it looks at what is and then goes back in time to determine how it got here. That beginning, the "how it got here" is the least understood part and is not the basis of evolution at all. In fact, it could be absolutely proven that God "snapped his fingers" and creatures suddenly appeared without changing the reality of evolution. Now, paleontology, Geology, etc DO dictate that this did not happen 6,000 years ago. Also, the "original" life was not the same as what we see around us now.. not even close. However, our knowledge of the very beginning is quite limited.

Second, technically, that "something sprang from nothing" is, essentially proven just by our existance. The alternative is that everything here existed .. always. With no beginning and no end. While that cannot be absolutely proven, per se, we do know that everything around us came from earlier forms, including human beings. We don't know exactly how that happened. In humans, particular, we know a lot. NPR has been doing a series on just that if anyone is interested. Among the findings, it took meat for our brains to develop. Also, it is clear that much of our neursystem comes from bits and pieces of earlier systems. All tend to indicate evolution happened in us. Regardless, though, the Bible speaks of humans as being much more than simply flesh beings like any other animal. That change from animal to human animal is where the mystery lies. Science may never be able to answer that one. Science looks at the mechanics, not the spirit.

[PLAYER57832]

Tzor, you are thinking in modern times. In ancient times, work had a very different meaning indeed. LIfe was very, very hard and essentially constant. The idea of "vacations" was unknown. Even the idea of taking any time off, for many people, was a luxury. Ironically, life was likely not as hard physically as it is for many factory workers and other mostly blue collar workers (some "white collars") today, who often truly do NOT have a day off. At any rate, the Jewish idea of a full day of rest was phenomenal. And, an important institution. It "legalized" the necessity of at least some rest.

I think you are also thinking in modern terms as well. This is not about a "day off" but the complete elimination of all work, not only by the person, but by everyone in the community! "But the seventh day is a sabbath to the Lord your God; you shall not do any work—you, or your son or your daughter, or your male or female slave, or your ox or your donkey, or any of your livestock, or the resident alien in your towns, so that your male and female slave may rest as well as you." Not only is there is an absolute prohibition on any work, but other parts of the Torah make it clear this is a mandatory feast day and day of holy worship. The penalty is DEATH!

Exactly. If this were not mandatory, then people would work. OR, they might not work themselves, but slaves and wives would be considered "irrelevant" -- as they are for many prohibitions and requirements in society (less in ancient Judaic culture than other cultures). Similarly, the penalty had to be death, partly because any other punishment would cause more harm to all. (that requires some discussion of ancient societies, but basically anybody not able to pull their weight was a burden.. anyone being locked up, etc punished the rest of society probably more than the individual. It is only modern societies that have that luxury). Also, the result of not working enough often would be no food, shelter, etc -- death. So, what seems utterly cruel to us is just the reality of that life. This is precisely why the admonition to rest on one day is important.

We try to pretend it is not because our labor is different now. Not less, just different.

With that, let's lay out the ground rules. You can't carry anything outside of your house. You can't light a fire, or add fuel to a fire. You can't prepare or cook anything. You can't even put a fire out. Here is a more complete list of the things you can't do.

This actually results in MORE WORK, to be able to spend an entire day completely free from ANY WORK. This has nothing to do with "vacations" whatsoever.

I did not follow the links, but understand that I have lived a very primitive lifestyle for a period and am now speaking esoterically. Today, the people who notice this most are women. In the old days, just cooking a meal took a long time. So, the idea that one day, you needed to cook ahead or plan to have things that did not require cooking (or, as modified, required the barest minimum -- putting something prepared into the oven, for example. )

When you get to modern times, it goes beyond bizzare into "you got to be kidding me" land. Riding an elevator is not technically "work" (apparently the elevator is not your ox) but pushing the button on the elevator is "work." So all elevators have to stop at every floor on the Sabbath.

Yes, exactly. This is the type of idiocy Christ came in to correct. Though, of course we tend to center on more serious and obvious issues such as "is it OK to take a lamb from a well". Of course, the answer is "yes". However, one thing I will say. We ALL would do well to think a bit harder about the impacts of what we do... and the idea that resting for a day, just relaxing, being with our families and celebrating God (though I would extend that to enjoying God's creation in Nature, etc -- not just listening to a sermon you find boring and irrelevant. We Christians have forgotten much of what worhip should be -- not a chore, but joy. And that doesn't just mean "joy" in the sense of "grit my teeth and know this is good for me, so I have to like it")

[PLAYER57832]

Woodruff--

im looking im looking. i cant remeber where i herd it.
http://www.jewishvirtuallibrary.org/jso ... bbat1.html
its not scientific but it explains well.

No, that really doesn't "explain well" the idea that we're more efficient in scientific tests if we rest roughly 1/7th of the time.

I vaguely remember hearing something similar, but have not found anything via google or ask.com yet.

However, while I cannot find specific reference to 7 days, there is a lot of research regarding the need for rest and recreation

Well of COURSE there's a lot of research regarding those things AND I don't disagree in any way that rest and recreation are very important to our efficiency. It's thoroughly irrelevant to the point, however...to the point that I really don't even understand why you bothered saying it.

I guess I missed something. Sorry.

[Timminz]

Biological evolution does not address the origin of life; for that, see abiogenesis. The two are commonly and mistakenly conflated. The theory of evolution explains the changes in successive generations of organisms, due to differences in genes and gene frequencies that occur in populations of living organisms over time. Thus evolution presupposes that life already exists. Biological evolution likewise says nothing about cosmology, the Big Bang, or the origins of the universe.

[Woodruff]

Woodruff--

im looking im looking. i cant remeber where i herd it.
http://www.jewishvirtuallibrary.org/jso ... bbat1.html
its not scientific but it explains well.

No, that really doesn't "explain well" the idea that we're more efficient in scientific tests if we rest roughly 1/7th of the time.

I vaguely remember hearing something similar, but have not found anything via google or ask.com yet.

However, while I cannot find specific reference to 7 days, there is a lot of research regarding the need for rest and recreation

Well of COURSE there's a lot of research regarding those things AND I don't disagree in any way that rest and recreation are very important to our efficiency. It's thoroughly irrelevant to the point, however...to the point that I really don't even understand why you bothered saying it.

I guess I missed something. Sorry.

Did you click on the link he provided?

[PLAYER57832]

[

Did you click on the link he provided?

I did.
It pretty much supports what I have come to believe, even if it is not necessarily what has been taught always in Sunday school; namely, that the purpose of the rest was to take the time to gain balance. It begins with the largely Protestant idea of celebrating work. However, too many churches seem to ignore the "rest" part of the 7th day and simply turn it into another kind of work day. Today, our lives are different and so, too must the concept of rest change. Today, taking the time to "reground", do things with our family, excercise and reconnect with nature (God's creation) can, in my mind, be more following the 7th commandment than going to church. Of course, I don't mean that study should be neglected. But, in today's world, that, too, is work and probably should be more encorporated into our daily lives.

[Woodruff]

[

Did you click on the link he provided?

I did.
It pretty much supports what I have come to believe, even if it is not necessarily what has been taught always in Sunday school; namely, that the purpose of the rest was to take the time to gain balance. It begins with the largely Protestant idea of celebrating work. However, too many churches seem to ignore the "rest" part of the 7th day and simply turn it into another kind of work day. Today, our lives are different and so, too must the concept of rest change. Today, taking the time to "reground", do things with our family, excercise and reconnect with nature (God's creation) can, in my mind, be more following the 7th commandment than going to church. Of course, I don't mean that study should be neglected. But, in today's world, that, too, is work and probably should be more encorporated into our daily lives.

Great, then I'll say to you the same freaking thing I said to him when he pulled that link out of his ass as "proof":
"No, that really doesn't "explain well" the idea that we're more efficient in scientific tests if we rest roughly 1/7th of the time."

I couldn't give a rat's ass if it supports what you believe to be true, because that's irrelevant as it could possibly be.

Now...as opposed to his complete disappearance from the thread since then...was there any relevance at all to that link and the question being posed?

[Lionz]

Player,

Do you believe that Exodus 20:8-11 refers to billions of years and does so without being misleading? And what does Genesis 2:5 mean to say if it rained on earth millions of years before plants? How about take those as questions to ask yourself and not as ones to give me answers to? We can debate about geology and paleontology perhaps, but maybe we've been there and done that and there are things claimed by you that I should simply let go.

[heavycola]

When you get to modern times, it goes beyond bizzare into "you got to be kidding me" land. Riding an elevator is not technically "work" (apparently the elevator is not your ox) but pushing the button on the elevator is "work." So all elevators have to stop at every floor on the Sabbath.

Yes, exactly. This is the type of idiocy Christ came in to correct. Though, of course we tend to center on more serious and obvious issues such as "is it OK to take a lamb from a well". Of course, the answer is "yes". However, one thing I will say. We ALL would do well to think a bit harder about the impacts of what we do... and the idea that resting for a day, just relaxing, being with our families and celebrating God (though I would extend that to enjoying God's creation in Nature, etc -- not just listening to a sermon you find boring and irrelevant. We Christians have forgotten much of what worhip should be -- not a chore, but joy. And that doesn't just mean "joy" in the sense of "grit my teeth and know this is good for me, so I have to like it")

Has anyone seen that Bill Maher film, Religulous? It's pretty good, if you're a heathen. Anwyay he's talking to this rabbi who runs a shop in jerusalem that sells gadgets that allow jews to get around the sabbath laws.
For example - The completion of an electrical circuit is considered “building” and thus disallowed.. so telephones are a no-no. This guy sells a special shabbat phone with holes on each button on the dialer. Instead of pressing the button, you put a peg into the hole. Each number is trying to dial itself at the same time, but something is inhibiting each number from dialing itself. When you put the stick in, you are blocking that which is blocking the number from dialing itself.

anyway Maher asks him whether this is supposed to fool god, and the rabbi answers: 'if there is a loophole, then god expects us to exploit that loophole' which was a pretty good answer i thought.

[PLAYER57832]

[

Did you click on the link he provided?

I did.
It pretty much supports what I have come to believe, even if it is not necessarily what has been taught always in Sunday school; namely, that the purpose of the rest was to take the time to gain balance. It begins with the largely Protestant idea of celebrating work. However, too many churches seem to ignore the "rest" part of the 7th day and simply turn it into another kind of work day. Today, our lives are different and so, too must the concept of rest change. Today, taking the time to "reground", do things with our family, excercise and reconnect with nature (God's creation) can, in my mind, be more following the 7th commandment than going to church. Of course, I don't mean that study should be neglected. But, in today's world, that, too, is work and probably should be more encorporated into our daily lives.

Great, then I'll say to you the same freaking thing I said to him when he pulled that link out of his ass as "proof":
"No, that really doesn't "explain well" the idea that we're more efficient in scientific tests if we rest roughly 1/7th of the time."

I couldn't give a rat's ass if it supports what you believe to be true, because that's irrelevant as it could possibly be.

Now...as opposed to his complete disappearance from the thread since then...was there any relevance at all to that link and the question being posed?

No... I agreed it was not, which is why I said that there are other studies. I can remember at least one that did specifically refer to a 1 to 7 ratio., which was why I posted. Finding them on the internet, though, is something else. As I say often, most of the research I read came before the internet was in existance and certainly before it was widely used. But, I thought you said that was not a relevant comment. So, I addressed that specific article.

I try to be short and I end up having to explain 5 times as much.. this is one reason why I tend to write longer initial posts.

[Woodruff]

So basically, nobody has anything they can cite regarding whether individuals are most efficient in scientific tests when resting roughly 1/7th of the time?

[2dimes]

You should let me alter that one. Taking 1 day in 7 off is not the same as resting 1/7th of the time.

As tzor mentioned, most only spend 1/3 of each day at work and even you are offered a lunch break of some kind. Your math is way off on this one.

[Woodruff]

You should let me alter that one. Taking 1 day in 7 off is not the same as resting 1/7th of the time.
As tzor mentioned, most only spend 1/3 of each day at work and even you are offered a lunch break of some kind. Your math is way off on this one.

I'm not the one that made the statement in question.

[2dimes]

You're saying the statement was 1/7th of the time? I need to go back and look. I read it as 1 day off in 7. We're just going to the hospital so it'll have to wait.

[Woodruff]

You're saying the statement was 1/7th of the time? I need to go back and look. I read it as 1 day off in 7. We're just going to the hospital so it'll have to wait.

Wercool stated "God rested to give us an example to follow.(in scientific tests you work more effencently if you rest roughly one seventh of the time)". I challenged the statement that we work more efficiently in scientific tests if we rest roughly one-seventh of the time, asking to see a cite. So far, none is forthcoming.

[mpjh]

proof evolution fails


but that doesn't prove evolution doesn't happen

[2dimes]

Well oddly enough...

Why did God have to rest anyway? was he tired?

God rested to give us an example to follow.(in scientific tests you work more effencently if you rest roughly one seventh of the time)

I don't understand how you can take this statement so strongly to the letter. I suspect you actually have the capacity to understand he meant to say he thinks there was some study that proved taking one day off per week was the best ratio of rest/work per week. However I was wrong about the quote so I'm probably wrong about the rest of my theory, I'm wrong a lot.

[2dimes]

This tread sure sucks compared to when it was about flying cars and non-evolving London tube mosquito strains.

[mpjh]

Actually, studies show that rest requirements vary widely between individuals. Age, sex, and nutrition play important roles. Some of us need years at a time off -- we are called retirees. Some of us work until we die -- we are called poor. Some of us never work -- we are called politicians.

[jonesthecurl]

...and we still haven't established why God needed to rest...

[2dimes]

This thread isn't really about evolution.

...and we still haven't established why God needed to rest...

Well I know you don't really care and it's somehow not the point but... Just like you next saturday, he didn't need to rest.

The Sabbath was created for man.

We should be talking about flying cars.