Metsfanmax wrote:This analogy is totally irrelevant. The fact is, he didn't say "Israelis hate me because of my middle name." All he said was that perhaps some of it could be attributed to that. Is it probable that many people chose not to vote for him based on his middle name? No. Is it probable that this was part of the reason why people didn't vote for him? Surely.
Agreed. Doesn't meet it was politically intelligent to say (whether domestically or internationally).
King Doctor wrote:Just because you regard people who didn't vote for the President as being 'morons' for not liking his name, does not mean that he supports your view. By saying that some people in the Middle East regard his name as unappealing his is not necessarily saying that they are morons.
Actually, I didn't think of the marginalization thing until I read the quote on CNN. He's not saying they are morons; he'll let others think that and do that.
King Doctor wrote:Also, slightly hard to shed too many tears about 'tea party' fruitloops being marginalised. After all they were the ones that turned up to meetings clad in period garb, swapping conspiracy 'birther' nonesense and weilding placards depicting Obama as a witch-doctor and a murderous comicbook character. After that, they were headed directly to the margins without any need for anybody to help them along the way.
I'm not saying the President actually thinks these people are morons. I'm suggesting that by saying that some of the reason Israelis don't like his policies because of his middle name, he is marginalizing Israelis by letting his supporters (and others) say, "You know what, if the Israelis really think Obama is bad because of his middle name, the Israelis must be stupid." This is the story rather than whether the US policy towards Israel is intelligent, wise, whatever.
King Doctor wrote:Further, regardless of what he thinks of American's who dislike his name, it seems clear that he's making reference to culturally ingrained mindsets within the Middle East (held, presumably, by people who may well be very intelligent) that make 'name disliking' particularly prevelant there (as opposed to here, where only morons do it).
I think I agree with this. There are culturally ingrained mindsets in the US, doesn't make them right.
King Doctor wrote:On the other hand, do you find it likely that there were large numbers of ill-informed people, perhaps buying in to all manner of off-the-wall 'birther' conspiracy loopyness, that seized upon his middle name as an additonal string to add to their 'irrationally dislking Obama' bow?
Yes, I do find it likely.
King Doctor wrote:I would submit that those people existed in very great numbers indeed.
I do not think these people exist in great numbers.
King Doctor wrote:I find it much more likely to imagine that they are using his middle name as one factor amongst many, using it to compound their original distrust/dislike rather than having it as the root cause.
Okay. I can agree with that. However, I do not think it was politically wise for the President to say that while in Israel. Further, I'm of the opinion (and it's an opinion), that the President and his supporters make these sorts of statements to use as tools to marginalize the opposition. And I really think this was something the President said on purpose. Because there will be people in the United States who grab onto this and make this one of their reasons for opposition to US support of Israel.
King Doctor wrote:Because what I see here is you starting with a conclusion, that Democrats marginalise and lie about everybody they don't like, then working backwards through the topic at hand in an effort to find an interpretation that fits your desired outcome. Nobody is being 'marginalised' in any way, shape or form; you're just grabbing onto a perfectly reasonable statement, denying it context, then trying to paint it as a slur against a nation's intelligence .
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I don't think it's a reasonable statement. It's not taken out of context; in fact, it's completely within context. I find it rather disturbing that you, and anyone else, thinks that it is reasonable to say "some of it may just be the fact that my middle name is Hussein, and that creates suspicion." You really think that's a reasonable opinion to have? And if it's a reasonable opinion to have, is it reasonable for the President of the United States to say it about the Israelis? Let's put it in context, when he says, "Ironically, I've got a Chief of Staff named Rahm Israel Emmanuel." Really? "Hey, I'm not racist, I have a black friend." What? It's ridiculous. These statements are as dumb as anything President Bush said. In fact, I'm pretty sure if President Bush had said these things, we would have heard a lot more negative than we're hearing about it now. Although, apparently, I'm making a mountain out of a molehill here.
King Doctor wrote:Also, slightly hard to shed too many tears about 'tea party' fruitloops being marginalised. After all they were the ones that turned up to meetings clad in period garb, swapping conspiracy 'birther' nonesense and weilding placards depicting Obama as a witch-doctor and a murderous comicbook character. After that, they were headed directly to the margins without any need for anybody to help them along the way.
Yes, those people marginalize themselves, sure. But not the people who agree with the ideas of the Tea Party that deal with the economy and taxation and the role of government. There's a thread on this somewhere, but I don't want to revisit that here.
What I really want to know is whether these statements are reasonable and intelligent for the President of the United States to make about the people of a foreign country, in that foreign country. Are these statements politically savvy? Will they damage the reputation of President Obama, and by extension the United States, in Israel? And are the statements meant to marginalize the Israelis? It's clear that the answer from you is "no" on the last question; I disagree.
